Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

segadreamcast

Saw nothing today that I didn't already know after the Villa game.

Was so frustrated with people here hiding behind the fig leaf that "we were better off than last season in the same fixtures" that I stopped reading for the rest of the week.

We've been abysmal both weeks. Arguably worse today. No idea why that starting lineup was chosen. People here have issues with Sakho, but the solution at CB is likely him and Lovren or him and Skrtel. No way around it. Not sure why Rodgers bottled that.

Gerrard and Lucas: dreadful.

Balotelli is more or less what I thought he'd be: not a world beater, trying his best, but a one goal per three games type. Sturridge can't come back fast enough.

This reads like knee jerking but it's exactly how I felt since GW1 about this squad, and it's all starting to come to a head. With no disrespect meant, SG has to be dropped and dropped now. He's a passenger we can't afford. Balotelli can take penalties when he's on the pitch. I'm sure others can too. The margin value of penalties (one out of six games so far) absolutely isn't worth what he costs us in every other category.

Soft Falling Rain

**** the Pandas! Yes I went there!

mikeym

Terrible performance today.


Gerrard isnt a defensive midfielder hes past it.

Borini was shocking so was most of the team.

K4t

I think you need to start playing Coutinho more and fit him into the team with Sterling. Teams are targeting Sterling (and Gerard to an extent) and asides from him there's not much creativity in midfield.

Milkers

Milkers wrote: »

Over the last couple of years there have been so many premature cries of "Gerrard is past it" but at some point he actually will be past it. I'm gonna go ahead and throw my hat in the ring now.

To be fair the man is 34 years old, in today's premier league (last 5 years) there aren't many examples of 34 years olds playing in midfield with huge success, its a very tall order.

I commented some weeks ago that we couldn't accommodate Johnson (or his ilk) along with Gerrard in a defensive midfield role, as we now seem to have two decent full backs that like to press on I'm afraid its looking like accommodating Gerrard in a defensive midfield position is perhaps detrimental to the balance of the team. Gerrard at a minimum needs to be managed and used less, he can't be playing every game for 90 mins.

Whatever about Gerrard Lucas is finished at this level, I was amazed to see him start, as mentioned few days ago I was not happy to see him come on in the Tues game either. He had a shop window opportunity before the transfer window closed, I didn't expect to see him in the PL or CL after that unless it was essential.

Borini did well I thought, Lallana was decent and we'll no doubt see him start against Everton.

Gbear

segadreamcast wrote: »

Saw nothing today that I didn't already know after the Villa game.

We were bad in a very different way today. That we're lurching from one cock up to another completely seperate cock up compounds the frustration.

segadreamcast wrote: »

Balotelli is more or less what I thought he'd be: not a world beater, trying his best, but a one goal per three games type. Sturridge can't come back fast enough.

That's simply bollocks. The team has failed to deliver for Balotelli. Not the other way around. If we actually have a decent team on the pitch that isn't woefully unbalanced I'm confident we can get a lot more out of all our attackers.

rob316 wrote: »

If I ever see lucas in a liverpool shirt again it better be for the reserves. Should be nowhere near the first team. Ship him out.

To be fair, Lucas on his own isn't a disaster. For example, he started the twatting of Spurs last season and played quite well. In isolation, he's well down the pecking order but he doesn't cause our entire midfield to disintegrate.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Lads we were playing similar stuff last season. The only difference was we had Suarez and Sturridge bailing us out.

After January we generally weren't.

A lot of people are ignoring the impact of Coutinho, Henderson, Sterling and even Gerrard on a few occasions to suit their argument.

We're not **** so far this season because we've lost Suarez or even because we've been without both him and Sturridge.

Fundamentally, Rodgers has got the team selection wrong in most of our games this season and we've been set up to fail as a result.

The squads that have been available for all the matches this season, bar City, have been lightyears ahead of our opposition in terms of quality.
Rodgers hasn't picked the right men for the job. It's as simple as that.

Soft Falling Rain

K4t wrote: »

I think you need to start playing Coutinho more and fit him into the team with Sterling. Teams are targeting Sterling (and Gerard to an extent) and asides from him there's not much creativity in midfield.

Coutinho has been poor since the first competitive game. I'd rather try and bed in Lallana and Markovic right now over him.

p38

Going to be very tight in the derby next week hate to say it but i think the toffees will nick it . Stevie G watched you make your debut but modern football is a young mans game (especially the English game) once you hit thirty I think its downhill and that's where Stevie is heading:(. Anyone know how long Can is out for. Its going to be one hell of a ride this season Think I will go get drunk and forget today:mad:

mikeym

The Starting XI that played today wouldnt be able to beat Middlesborough this Tuesday.

p38

p38 wrote: »

Going to be very tight in the derby next week hate to say it but i think the toffees will nick it . Stevie G watched you make your debut but modern football is a young mans game (especially the English game) once you hit thirty I think its downhill and that's where Stevie is heading:(. Anyone know how long Can is out for. Its going to be one hell of a ride this season Think I will go get drunk and forget today:mad:

The Derby is exactly the game the team needs tbh.

It'll make or break or season imo.

A win and we could kick on with Sturridge back.

A loss and it's a disaster!

Osmosis Jones

Sturridge can't come back quick enough, get him and Balotelli up top together and things will be looking a lot better.

This is all I want to see once everyone's fit.

Panthro

El Inho wrote: »

needless to say that's an angry man. I think he made some very valid points. In particular the passing and composure. There is a little confidence crisis going on...did we get rid of the psyche psycho guy?

Yeah, I think ye sold him for a nice few bob.

Osmosis Jones

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Sturridge can't come back quick enough, get him and Balotelli up top together and things will be looking a lot better.

This is all I want to see once everyone's fit.

Gerrard wont be dropped. Zero chance of it happening.

duffman13

mikeym wrote: »

The Starting XI that played today wouldnt be able to beat Middlesborough this Tuesday.

Bit of a stretch! A dose of reality is required at some stage! Liverpool just don't look as dangerous without Sturridge and Balotelli needs time to settle! Keep Calm

K4t

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Coutinho has been poor since the first competitive game. I'd rather try and bed in Lallana and Markovic right now over him.

Not going to improve by not being played. He's class.

Along with Sterling, he's the only player I'd like to see at Utd. (not that we're stuck in that department). But I think he has the potential to be better than Mata.

Lallana ahead of Coutinhio for me

DVDM93

I am very upset.

Liam O

K4t wrote: »

Not going to improve by not being played. He's class.

Along with Sterling, he's the only player I'd like to see at Utd. (not that we're stuck in that department). But I think he has the potential to be better than Mata.

I give credit to a lot of Liverpool players, Coutinho however is someone I've just never seen the fuss about. He's not going to come up big and take over a game when things aren't going well and only shows his skill when given acres of space. Lack of shooting ability and some odd decisions make him redundant in a lot of games. When he's flowing some of his passes are great to watch but that's not very often these days imo.

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

I give credit to a lot of Liverpool players, Coutinho however is someone I've just never seen the fuss about. He's not going to come up big and take over a game when things aren't going well and only shows his skill when given acres of space. Lack of shooting ability and some odd decisions make him redundant in a lot of games. When he's flowing some of his passes are great to watch but that's not very often these days imo.

I dunno, when on form he's incredible, space or no space. He's just not got the consistancy yet.

ebbsy

A dogs dinner of a performance with no redeeming features whatsoever. Highly paid professionals should be switched on from the start. You would think going in at 2-1 down would be enough to trigger a better challenge in the second half. What happens ? Nothing for at least 20 minutes. No pinning West Ham back. No first to the ball. No juice.

It's lads just going through the motions, collecting their paychecks, and on Monday I will open the paper to read some Liverpool player singing another player's praises.

4 th place ? No chance boys if you d'ont start producing and working harder.

Benimar

rarnes1 wrote: »

Gerrard wont be dropped. Zero chance of it happening.

I think it might. Gerrard will be dropped when the stage is reached that by picking him, it will damage Rodgers.

I think that stage is very close. Many questioning if Rodgers has the cojones as it is.

redbaron_99

United fan, not on the wind up. But I think Liverpool need to drop Gerard. His legs have gone and he looks tired mentally.
It will take a lot of guts for BR to do it, but it needs to been done sooner rather than later.
Feels like the system and the selections are being picked to accommodate him.

BenEadir

If we don't win four and draw one out of the next five PL games we're fcuked and may not make 4th place this year.

Chelsea and City will be 1 & 2, there's little doubt about that. I genuinely fear if we don't radically re-shape our midfield asap we are in danger of giving Arsenal, United, Everton, Spurs and Southampton such a head start for 3rd and 4th we won't be able to catch them.

We have more games to play this year, teams have clearly worked out how to deal with our system (including man marking Stevie) and Stevie himself is a year older and slower. We can't have Stevie in the team AND have the offensive setup we have, it leaves our defence totally exposed and that's only made worse with Ming in goal as the defence have no confidence in him.

Stevie needs to be phased out starting with playing him in all CL and home PL games only. It's less likely CL teams will man mark him and at home the PL the opposition will be more defensive giving him a bit more room to do his thing.

Allen and Can need to be phased into the DM role away from home the PL with Stevie on the bench for the last 30 minutes if needed.

Robson99

Augeo wrote: »

To be fair the man is 34 years old, in today's premier league (last 5 years) there aren't many examples of 34 years olds playing in midfield with huge success, its a very tall order.

Scholes and Giggs managed it

BenEadir

redbaron_99 wrote: »

United fan, not on the wind up. But I think Liverpool need to drop Gerard. His legs have gone and he looks tired mentally.
It will take a lot of guts for BR to do it, but it needs to been done sooner rather than later.
Feels like the system and the selections are being picked to accommodate him.

You're right. Time catches up with all great players. Not too many 34 year old midfielders in top 4 teams in the PL. In fact I can't think of a single one who is a regular starter.

Gerrard needs to be managed properly, like daithijj mentioned earlier. Play the right guys beside him for a start. Everyone here knew him and Lucas doesn't work, how come BR didn't!!

Rodgers is the one that has to shoulder the blame today on the whole. A shambles.

Another few quick defeats and he'll be another some pressure. A win is needed asap starting next Saturday

BenEadir

Robson99 wrote: »

Scholes and Giggs managed it

Not recently and Giggs was an exceptional athlete. Stevie doesn't have Giggs physical attributes.

Robson99

BenThere wrote: »

Not recently and Giggs was an exceptional athlete. Stevie doesn't have Giggs physical attributes.

What you mean not recently???. Both played a fair bit on the league winning team the season before last

BenEadir

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Sturridge can't come back quick enough, get him and Balotelli up top together and things will be looking a lot better.

This is all I want to see once everyone's fit.

You can't have Allen and Can starting and no Lallana on the pitch. Allen and Can should be fighting it out for the DM spot, especially away from home in the PL.

redbaron_99

Robson99 wrote: »

Scholes and Giggs managed it

Not exactly true. Scholes never depended on pace and power, so he was the type who could play on and on like pirlo has been able to.
Giggs was a pacey winger who had to be moved into midfield because he lost his pace, and uniteds midfield suffered greatly because he was played in the middle with the likes of carrick.

Gerard might be able to continue but the team around him need to be very active and mobile with lots of pace up front. The team at the moment couldn't be described that way.

BenEadir

Robson99 wrote: »

What you mean not recently???. Both played a fair bit on the league winning team the season before last

You mean the 2011/2012 season before last when they both made 14 appearances? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Manchester_United_F.C._season

djPSB

Had a game myself, so missed the game.

Anyone feel like giving a very brief synopsis? Who was good/bad?

BenEadir

djPSB wrote: »

Had a game myself, so missed the game.

Anyone feel like giving a very brief synopsis? Who was good/bad?

All bad. Sterling and Lallana showed glimpses but that's it. Everyone else had a mare.

Time has caught up with Stevie/opposition have figured out how to neutralise him and the defence have no confidence in Ming.

It was a total cluster fcuk.

4th is not looking good, even at this stage.

redbaron_99

djPSB wrote: »

Had a game myself, so missed the game.

Anyone feel like giving a very brief synopsis? Who was good/bad?

Liverpool were bad. West ham were good.

(Sorry) I'll get my coat.

Gbear

BenThere wrote: »

You can't have Allen and Can starting and no Lallana on the pitch. Allen and Can should be fighting it out for the DM spot, especially away from home in the PL.

Neither look like DMs at all.

Going on his performance for the Germany U21s and his general style of play Can is a pure box to box midfielder, capable of doing it all but a touch on the reckless side and with more quality in the final third than a player that seldom goes too far outside their own half.

Allen can do a job there but he's far more useful as a body close to the 10 who can give us meaningful possession in very tight spaces.
His pace, strength, tackling and range of passing are nothing to write home about. His agility, short game and ability to hang on to the ball while under pressure suit a more advanced role.

There's no particular reason why we need any specialised DM in the starting 11. Having a more fluid midfield of 3 of Lallana, Can, Allen and Henderson where all can track back, press, run with the ball and are, to varying degrees, useful in possession could mean we don't need a pure destroyer at all.
Or at least we can get by without one in most games.

Robson99

Robson99 wrote: »

Scholes and Giggs managed it

I did say not many
League wasn't as competitive when Griggs was 34 too .....

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

.
There's no particular reason why we need any specialised DM in the starting 11. Having a more fluid midfield of 3 of Lallana, Can, Allen and Henderson where all can track back, press, run with the ball and are, to varying degrees, useful in possession could mean we don't need a pure destroyer at all.
Or at least we can get by without one in most games.

Indeed, the position is purely to accommodate the captain in the starting 11.

Robson99

Augeo wrote: »

I did say not many
League wasn't as competitive when Griggs was 34 too .....

Fair enough on part A.
But league was as competitive 6 years ago and he was also playing in a team whigh was one of the best in Europe

Guy:Incognito

Milkers wrote: »

Over the last couple of years there have been so many premature cries of "Gerrard is past it" but at some point he actually will be past it. I'm gonna go ahead and throw my hat in the ring now.

If the team were playing great and flourishing but carrying Gerrard there might be a bit of truth but the reality is the whole team is playing poorly so to pick Gerrard out is wrong. A 25 year old Gerrard might be playing in a different position and scoring a few goals but we'd still be playing poorly and shipping them at the other end.

daithijjj

If Gerrard is the first name on your lips for that shambles today you need to have words with yourselves.

Same tired arguments trotted out for around 3 years.

And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now.

Sick reading posts about him being not as effective as he used to be. Talk about stating the bleedin obvious, he has moved 40 yards back towards our goal. I thought he was great v City myself.

We have arguably 4 players to play there, Gerrard, plus 2 injured plus the worst player in the squad imo, who started today. Henderson should never ever be used there, he is simply wasted doing anything other than pressing high. Only way i would remotely entertain Henderson there is if there was a plague of biblical proportions with injuries.

If you are expecting 33/34/35 year olds to do the donkey work then you dont know football tbh, especially ones who are alien to that concept for the majority of their careers, you need players beside those players to do it for them. To use as an example, 2 seasons ago City sold De Jong, Yaya had an indifferent season through having the lack of coverage behind, the like we need for Gerrard. City bought a DM the next season, Yaya flourished, and then bought another one this summer. Lampard has had Ramires, Matic etc.

LFC have done nothing for this position, we have bought Can, and he is the only one since we lost Mascherano that justifies what i would call a 'strong' def mid to 'horse' the midfield and carry the ball.

It's been glaring in this team. Remove what we did in the attacking half last year and its even more glaring. This deficiency will come to pass this season and the only way it changes is if its addressed in January.

But it probably wont because it seems out of the comfort zone of certain managers to obtain these types of players. I'd include Wenger in that and seemingly Rodgers.

A ready replacement for Lucas would be Schneiderlin for example. He would be a good signing for this team.

As much as it pains me to say it, Mourinho recently replied to a question about his squad.....to paraphrase, 'we assessed what we needed, identified the players, and bought them'. Now thats easy financially for them but the thing, is, as much as i like the look of Markovic, there was no necessity for that signing. He may turn out to be great in the future but it told me the club saw no issues in defensive midfield and that is the blind spot for us imo. Has been for years. Gerrard was pencilled in to move back but the Xabi role needed Mascherano beside him.

Kharrell

Watched the game in the pub with my Liverpool supporting mate for the first time this season, and his frustration with Gerrard in particular was something else, in his own non-abusive manner. He was adamant that Rodgers needed to drop him as soon as the likes of Allen are back, but I just cannot see Rodgers making that type of call. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but as I tried to explain to him, it's one thing if the coach is someone of Wenger, Van Gaal or Mourinho's standing, but when you're still a somewhat new-ish manager, it's more difficult to make that call. Going by what I saw in the pub, the majority of Liverpool fans were hurling abuse at Mignolet, Sakho, Skrtel, Lovern, Balotelli, Borini and Lucas, but Gerrard escaped any criticism which I found it astonishing. During the game, it was amazing how many times as the deepest lying midfielder, he was nowhere to been seen. The Sahko header for the third goal if I recall correctly springs to mind. I always believed that you can't judge football clearly with sentiment. er is finished, they're finished and you move on. Scholes is my favourite United player, but I knew his time was up many years ago when the time came to him being a regular starter. Liverpool fans that I've come across for the most part refuse to see that for whatever reason. Today he certainly didn't contribute towards anything positve.

To me anyway, it seems he doesn't grasp the concept of having to sit out games in any fashion outside of being injured, and I don't mean say for example, the early rounds of FA and League Cup where the proper starting eleven for most top sides is rested. While that is an admirable trait in some way, for the sake of the team as a whole, it's a detriment and one the likes of my team as well as the others teams outside of Chelsea and Manchester City will take great delight in seeing. From a Man Utd point of view, I really hope Rodgers persists with Gerrard. It was one thing perhaps man-marking Gerrard 5-10 years ago, but now it's so much easier nowadays, Liverpool in the last two league games are effectively down to ten men.

BenEadir

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If the team were playing great and flourishing but carrying Gerrard there might be a bit of truth

The PL isn't the Scottish PL you know? Teams can't afford to carry anyone.

It's also not realistic to compare Giggs at 34/35 and Stevie as he is now for the following reasons:-

1. Giggs was a serious athlete and always had ton's of pace. He was a very rare specimen. Stevie isn't like that and and never has been.

2. The championship winning and CL challenging team Giggs played in aged 34 was miles better than the current LFC team.

Guy:Incognito

BenThere wrote: »

The PL isn't the Scottish PL you know? Teams can't afford to carry anyone.
.

I never said it was or they could

I said that the talk of him being finished might hold some weight if that's what was happening.

As it is its whole team playing poorly rather than Gerrard playing poorly because hes 34.


Incidentally why do people think BR is so great in general yet they are right about Gerrard and BR just has a huge blind spot?

daithijjj

daithijjj wrote: »

..

And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now. .....

Do we need to play someone "there" in all games?

Harry Palmr

More fun formations for 2 and 3 up top

Guy:Incognito

Augeo wrote: »

Do we need to play someone "there" in all games?

I cant see the defence suddenly shoring itself up with more space in front of it.

I haven't seen Gerrard do enough/much defensively to feel worried about the back 4 without someone else sitting in a DM/sweeper role tbh.

daithijjj

Augeo wrote: »

Do we need to play someone "there" in all games?

No, but it would be preferable to have the option should we need to set up that way. You cant just stick any midfielder in and hope for the best.

Personally, if money was the sticking point, i thought we could have kept Ibe, not signed Markovic and bought a starting DM instead. Allen and Lucas cant play there, too weak, its a half hearted attempt at doing the importance of the position justice imo. Allen can do a different job though, Lucas is ineffective in everything he does these days.

Guy:Incognito

Augeo wrote: »

I haven't seen Gerrard do enough/much defensively to feel worried about the back 4 without someone else sitting in a DM/sweeper role tbh.

Theres been plenty to worry about WITH someone there. The defence was a shambles all last season and its continued into this, only thing is missing is the goals scored.

Drexel

daithijjj wrote: »

If Gerrard is the first name on your lips for that shambles today you need to have words with yourselves.

Same tired arguments trotted out for around 3 years.

And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now.

Sick reading posts about him being not as effective as he used to be. Talk about stating the bleedin obvious, he has moved 40 yards back towards our goal. I thought he was great v City myself.

We have arguably 4 players to play there, Gerrard, plus 2 injured plus the worst player in the squad imo, who started today. Henderson should never ever be used there, he is simply wasted doing anything other than pressing high. Only way i would remotely entertain Henderson there is if there was a plague of biblical proportions with injuries.

If you are expecting 33/34/35 year olds to do the donkey work then you dont know football tbh, especially ones who are alien to that concept for the majority of their careers, you need players beside those players to do it for them. To use as an example, 2 seasons ago City sold De Jong, Yaya had an indifferent season through having the lack of coverage behind, the like we need for Gerrard. City bought a DM the next season, Yaya flourished, and then bought another one this summer. Lampard has had Ramires, Matic etc.

LFC have done nothing for this position, we have bought Can, and he is the only one since we lost Mascherano that justifies what i would call a 'strong' def mid to 'horse' the midfield and carry the ball.

It's been glaring in this team. Remove what we did in the attacking half last year and its even more glaring. This deficiency will come to pass this season and the only way it changes is if its addressed in January.

But it probably wont because it seems out of the comfort zone of certain managers to obtain these types of players. I'd include Wenger in that and seemingly Rodgers.

A ready replacement for Lucas would be Schneiderlin for example. He would be a good signing for this team.

As much as it pains me to say it, Mourinho recently replied to a question about his squad.....to paraphrase, 'we assessed what we needed, identified the players, and bought them'. Now thats easy financially for them but the thing, is, as much as i like the look of Markovic, there was no necessity for that signing. He may turn out to be great in the future but it told me the club saw no issues in defensive midfield and that is the blind spot for us imo. Has been for years. Gerrard was pencilled in to move back but the Xabi role needed Mascherano beside him.

Is there a lack of quality player available to do that type of job? Arsenal have had similar problems since last season and no body was brought in either.