Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

Harry Palmr

daithijjj wrote: »

No, but it would be preferable to have the option should we need to set up that way. You cant just stick any midfielder in and hope for the best.

Personally, if money was the sticking point, i thought we could have kept Ibe, not signed Markovic and bought a starting DM instead. Allen and Lucas cant play there, too weak, its a half hearted attempt at doing the importance of the position justice imo. Allen can do a different job though, Lucas is ineffective in everything he does these days.

The fact that Rodgers has made sure not to spend any big money there is surely telling. Fernando could have been bought before City made their interest known, Schneiderlin could have been considered (though buying four Soton players would have been taking the pish), someone like Blaise Matuidi or at the cheap end of the scale Gary Medel.

Its a blind spot and its not likely to change now.

daithijjj

daithijjj wrote: »

No, but it would be preferable to have the option should we need to set up that way. You cant just stick any midfielder in and hope for the best......

Indeed, I think using Gerrard in that position when needed would work but not with Lucas in the team.

No need at all for that position to be mandatory and Rodgers is only sticking with it to utilise Gerrard.

MD1990

No one is saying Gerrard is the only problem. But he was terrible today & at 34 needs to rotated.

Steven Gerrard game in numbers: 82% pass accuracy 0 through balls 0 shots 0/5 crosses completed 0 tackles won

With Sterling & Ibe. Markovic is a good talent but not what was required for the team this season.

BenEadir

daithijjj wrote: »

If Gerrard is the first name on your lips for that shambles today you need to have words with yourselves.

Same tired arguments trotted out for around 3 years.

And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now.

Yes we do, Can or Allen would give better defensive protection than Stevie is capable of any more.

daithijjj wrote: »

If you are expecting 33/34/35 year olds to do the donkey work then you dont know football tbh, especially ones who are alien to that concept for the majority of their careers

Agreed. so what exactly is he supposed to do in his new position? Stand around saying "I'm not supposed to be here and I can't play this position because I'm not suited to it and I'm too old to adapt? Your argument is self defeating. Either a 34/35 year old can do the role or he can't. Which is it?

daithijjj wrote: »

you need players beside those players to do it for them.

So you're advocating having a player on the pitch who can't do his job and his duties should be outsourced to his colleagues who in addition to their own jobs have to carry him?

daithijjj wrote: »

2 seasons ago City sold De Jong, Yaya had an indifferent season through having the lack of coverage behind, the like we need for Gerrard. City bought a DM the next season, Yaya flourished, and then bought another one this summer. Lampard has had Ramires, Matic etc

Ah, I gotcha now. You're advocating moving him back up the pitch where his pace and movement will be devastating to..........LFC!! You're in a minority of one if you think Stevie can play a central midfield role in front of a DM any more.

daithijjj wrote: »

LFC have done nothing for this position, we have bought Can, and he is the only one since we lost Mascherano that justifies what i would call a 'strong' def mid to 'horse' the midfield and carry the ball.

It's been glaring in this team.

Yes, especially with Stevie playing that role.

daithijjj wrote: »

This deficiency will come to pass this season and the only way it changes is if its addressed in January.

I agree with you but until then it should be Allen and Can who play the DM role.

daithijjj wrote: »

But it probably wont because it seems out of the comfort zone of certain managers to obtain these types of players. I'd include Wenger in that and seemingly Rodgers.

A ready replacement for Lucas would be Schneiderlin for example. He would be a good signing for this team.

Totally agree, it wouldn't surprise me if we go for him in January. DM doesn't make the best use of Allens skills whilst Can is still a bit too young to be the main DM.

daithijjj wrote: »

As much as it pains me to say it, Mourinho recently replied to a question about his squad.....to paraphrase, 'we assessed what we needed, identified the players, and bought them'. Now thats easy financially for them but the thing, is, as much as i like the look of Markovic, there was no necessity for that signing. He may turn out to be great in the future but it told me the club saw no issues in defensive midfield and that is the blind spot for us imo. Has been for years. Gerrard was pencilled in to move back but the Xabi role needed Mascherano beside him.

Agreed up to the last bit. If we're going to play a diamond you can't have someone sitting beside Stevie in front of the back four.

Bottom line is Stevie is 34, he isn't a DM and there isn't any other spot in the team for him. Last year (when he was 33 with fewer games and no World Cup messing with pre season) he moved to a new position and it took time for teams to figure out how to neutralise him but they all know how to do it now and it's not even that difficult - man mark him when our keeper/defence have the ball and the positive technical attributes he brings to the game with his incisive passing are wiped out.

He's a legend but he's a 34 year old legend playing a role he isn't suited to or effective in. Why do we think we can get away with playing a 34 year old out of position as a DM when not a single top 6 club have a 34 year old starting midfielder?

BenEadir

MD1990 wrote: »

Steven Gerrard game in numbers: 82% pass accuracy 0 through balls 0 shots 0/5 crosses completed 0 tackles won

No other player, in any PL team, with those stats would start the next game. no chance.

Harry Palmr

MD1990 wrote: »

No one is saying Gerrard is the only problem. But he was terrible today & at 34 needs to rotated.

Steven Gerrard game in numbers: 82% pass accuracy 0 through balls 0 shots 0/5 crosses completed 0 tackles won

With Sterling & Ibe. Markovic is a good talent but not what was required for the team this season.

BenThere wrote: »

No other player, in any PL team, with those stats would start the next game. no chance.

as mentioned here three and a half hours ago

Downing waltzed past him, that's all one needs to know really.

MD1990

Regarding the Everton match. Coutinho for me should start. Playing poor but so are plenty of players. He was actually our only threat in the 2nd half against Aston Villa.

darced

This post has been deleted.

BenEadir

Harry Palmr wrote: »

as mentioned here three and a half hours ago

Downing waltzed past him, that's all one needs to know really.

Feck, there's an hour of my life I'll never get back!!

daithijjj

BenThere wrote: »

Yes we do, Can or Allen would give better defensive protection than Stevie is capable of any more.

Agreed. so what exactly is he supposed to do in his new position? Stand around saying "I'm not supposed to be here and I can't play this position because I'm not suited to it and I'm too old to adapt? Your argument is self defeating. Either a 34/35 year old can do the role or he can't. Which is it?

So you're advocating having a player on the pitch who can't do his job and his duties should be outsourced to his colleagues who in addition to their own jobs have to carry him?

Ah, I gotcha now. You're advocating moving him back up the pitch where his pace and movement will be devastating to..........LFC!! You're in a minority of one if you think Stevie can play a central midfield role in front of a DM any more.

Yes, especially with Stevie playing that role.

I agree with you but until then it should be Allen and Can who play the DM role.

Totally agree, it wouldn't surprise me if we go for him in January. DM doesn't make the best use of Allens skills whilst Can is still a bit too young to be the main DM.

Agreed up to the last bit. If we're going to play a diamond you can't have someone sitting beside Stevie in front of the back four.

Bottom line is Stevie is 34, he isn't a DM and there isn't any other spot in the team for him. Last year (when he was 33 with fewer games and no World Cup messing with pre season) he moved to a new position and it took time for teams to figure out how to neutralise him but they all know how to do it now and it's not even that difficult - man mark him when our keeper/defence have the ball and the positive technical attributes he brings to the game with his incisive passing are wiped out.

He's a legend but he's a 34 year old legend playing a role he isn't suited to or effective in. Why do we think we can get away with a 34 year old DM when not a single top 6 club have a 34 year old starting midfielder?

Gerrard isnt there to do the donkey work, if he is deployed in that fashion then he might as well be put out to pasture right now, or indeed last summer.

It makes zero sense that Gerrard would be a defensive cog, he was never any use at it when in his prime so why expect it now?.

You know what the common denominator is though with both our stances?.

The manager, just for different reasons.

delw

Not much being mentioned on our failure to defend a set piece with in the first minute or two which was shocking.(only read last 5/6 pages so may of been mentioned) Beginning to wonder do we do defensive drills in training.Who gets the blame for that goal because we were chasing our tails from then

BenEadir

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So what exactly is his place/position? Is he supposed to be the best passing DM in the league? If so he'll always be the best long range passer in the PL, even if he keeps playing until he's 40 but the benefit of his passing is unfortunately outweighed by his lack of effectiveness as a DM and costing us more goals than he's helping create.

A DM has to first and foremost be a defender breaking up play and being a general nuisance but Stevie has never been that and he's not going to start being it aged 34.

~Rebel~

If Sturridge is still out next week, I think i'd like us to try to bring in as many of last years players as possible, try to get more of a footing--

---

Sterling---Balotelli

---

Coutinho

---

Lallana

---

Henderson

---

Gerrard

chicorytip

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The one thing I have learned from this thread is all the so called bad players signed were the transfer committees fault and all the players that work out were Brendan Rodgers choices.

What transfer committee? There is a network of scouts who report to the manager who ,in turn, makes the ultimate decisions.

mosstin

darced wrote: »

I cant believe people want Gerrard replaced with the likes of Can who has mostly looked a donkey from his cameos so far and Allen who has hardly been inspiring either.

We are in the same situation with Gerrard another year older and still no proper replacement that looks like they should keep him out of the side.

Im all for replacing Gerrard but they have to be good enough to take his place and I dont see anyone up to it at the minute,we have no better option so we need to make sure Gerrard has the right players with him when he plays,not Lucas.

Balottelli impressed me today with lots of his play today,great hold up,nice touch and some cute passing.

"has looked a donkey from his CAMEOS"

This place this evening has been quite something.

Harry Palmr

LOAN WATCH

Texieria - 63 mins for Brighton & HA in 0-0 home draw against Blackpool
Wisdom - played full game in 0-1 away win against Spurs
Alberto - Played 67 mins and got an assist for Malaga in 2-2 away draw with Espanyol
Ibe - played last 40 mins and scored his first goal for Derby.
Origi - Played last half hour in 0-0 home draw
Smith - Played 90 mins as left wing back in 5-2 home win for Swindon Town got two assists for third and fifth goals
Ilori - Unused sub for Bordeaux
Ossiadi - Unused sub for Stoke
Coates - no game for Sunderland

darced

This post has been deleted.

BenEadir

daithijjj wrote: »

Gerrard isnt there to do the donkey work, if he is deployed in that fashion then he might as well be put out to pasture right now, or indeed last summer.

It makes zero sense that Gerrard would be a defensive cog, he was never any use at it when in his prime so why expect it now?.

Exactly, so why is he being asked to play that position? Is it because BR feels obliged to find a spot for him? If so the pressure will build to a point where BR has to make a choice, drop Stevie or face the sack and the reality, if you work the logic through, is that whoever comes in will immediately use his honeymoon period to drop Stevie just as LVG used his honeymoon period to clear out Evra, Rio etc? (I'm NOT saying Era and Rio are as good or as important to their club as Stevie is to LFC!!!)

daithijjj wrote: »

You know what the common denominator is though with both our stances?.

The manager, just for different reasons.

Well I think it's time to tailor Stevies role to CL games and a limited number of PL home games. What decision do you think BR needs to make?

Nerdlingr

Teams have figured us out. Just like Southampton were first to do at anfield last year. Press us high up the pitch and we're f*cked.
I think all our problems both defensively (obviously) and offensively are coming from our centre backs. They all seem unwillingly, or unable, to bring the ball out of defence themselves. Everything goes either through Gerrard who's got someone on him or is passed into our congested midfield. They need to step up into midfield to create space for others. Been crying out for them to do it since the season started but it doesn't look like happening. Also I wish we could switch play to our full balks without having to take five passes to do it.

BenEadir

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I think all our problems both defensively (obviously) and offensively are coming from our centre backs. They all seem unwillingly, or unable, to bring the ball out of defence themselves.

Because they have no confidence in Ming. They are afraid to step forward.

daithijjj

BenThere wrote: »

So what exactly is his place/position? Is he supposed to be the best passing DM in the league? If so he'll always be the best long range passer in the PL, even if he keeps playing until he's 40 but the benefit of his passing is unfortunately outweighed by his lack of effectiveness as a DM and costing us more goals than he's helping create.

A DM has to first and foremost be a defender breaking up play and being a general nuisance but Stevie has never been that and he's not going to start being it aged 34.

They dont actually, thats why Bayern just gave a 2 year contract to a player who will be 33 in a few weeks, a player who doesnt consider tackling a skill at all.

The arguments you are debating here are the same reasons Milan gave for letting Pirlo go, that worked out well.

A quality midfield needs to dovetail its attributes.

MD1990

daithijjj wrote: »

They dont actually, thats why Bayern just gave a 2 year contract to a player who will be 33 in a few weeks, a player who doesnt consider tackling a skill at all.

The arguments you are debating here are the same reasons Milan gave for letting Pirlo go, that worked out well.

A quality midfield needs to dovetail its attributes.

You do realise Alonso actually does tackle alot & is managed properly i.e gets rotated. Gerrard is playing very poor atm & needs to be rested. I think he will start in the Cup vs Boro.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Muahahaha

anyone know when Sturridge might be back ?

Nerdlingr

BenThere wrote: »

Because they have no confidence in Ming. They are afraid to step forward.

Could well be the case alright. Still, in many of the games this season there's been acres of space when either lovren, sakho or skrtel pick up the ball. I'm just willing them to go forward with it. Instead is usually a five yard pass into Gerrard who's facing his own goal and has a man on him. Dare I say it but could we be missing agger?!! He was great at doing exactly what I'm on about. Carrying the ball and then surveying his options.

daithijjj

BenThere wrote: »

Exactly, so why is he being asked to play that position? Is it because BR feels obliged to find a spot for him? If so the pressure will build to a point where BR has to make a choice, drop Stevie or face the sack and the reality, if you work the logic through, is that whoever comes in will immediately use his honeymoon period to drop Stevie just as LVG used his honeymoon period to clear out Evra, Rio etc? (I'm NOT saying Era and Rio are as good or as important to their club as Stevie is to LFC!!!)



Well I think it's time to tailor Stevies role to CL games and a limited number of PL home games. What decision do you think BR needs to make?

I have no intention of regurgitating the same stuff anymore tbh. I've been writing the same stuff since lads were saying the same as far back as Benitez last season re Gerrard.

Eventually, it will be correct. But there is nothing in our squad to squeeze Gerrard out yet. If i had got my way we'd have had 2 def mids brought in years ago. Then maybe.


I also find it hilarious that people think Joe Allen can play def mid. Theres a few 12yr old girls in our local GAA team who could out muscle him. He is much better higher.

Harry Palmr

This is a case of a club failing to be pro-active about an ageing player. Regardless of their status you have to plan to replace them rather than waiting for performance to decline and mess the side about accommodating him and then getting caught short as the last few drops are scooped out of the drying well.

BenEadir

daithijjj wrote: »

They dont actually, thats why Bayern just gave a 2 year contract to a player who will be 33 in a few weeks, a player who doesnt consider tackling a skill at all.

The arguments you are debating here are the same reasons Milan gave for letting Pirlo go, that worked out well.

A quality midfield needs to dovetail its attributes.

Can you give a PL example please?
You're not seriously equating the PL to the Italian league are you?

Also, Alonso is a better younger player in the DM role than Stevie playing in an infinitely better team than Stevie. Mmmm which is the easier job? Playing DM for LFC in the PL with Ming in goal or in the Bayern Munich team with Neur in goal???

Nerdlingr

daithijjj wrote: »

I also find it hilarious that people think Joe Allen can play def mid. Theres a few 12yr old girls in our local GAA team who could out muscle him. He is much better higher.

Why do you think it hilarious? You've just citied Alonso as an example of a dm not needing the attribute of tackling to play that role and yet you dismiss Allen because he hasn't got the 'brawn' to play there. Bit hypocritical no?

daithijjj

MD1990 wrote: »

You do realise Alonso actually does tackle alot & is managed properly i.e gets rotated. Gerrard is playing very poor atm & needs to be rested. I think he will start in the Cup vs Boro.

So does Gerrard but when things go wrong it seems first port of call is to blame him for far too many imo.

Alonso had a sh1te world cup too, didnt stop Bayern picking him up though. Alonso has played plenty of football the last few years, id say a fair bit more than Gerrard.

Gerrard shouldnt be playing 3 times in the last week but we dont have the player we should have signed this summer to come in to replace him. He did have 2 weeks off just before though. We have Allen and Lucas who cant do it because they have no distribution to play a fast paced game from deep, plus Can who is injured. Lucas and Allen also cant carry the ball or fend off physicality.

He might start midweek, what does that tell you about our squad and Rodgers?. It tells me we bought players based in isolation of statistics, value and potential rather than necessity.

ShoulderChip

daithijjj wrote: »

As much as it pains me to say it, Mourinho recently replied to a question about his squad.....to paraphrase, 'we assessed what we needed, identified the players, and bought them'. Now thats easy financially for them but the thing, is, as much as i like the look of Markovic, there was no necessity for that signing. He may turn out to be great in the future but it told me the club saw no issues in defensive midfield and that is the blind spot for us imo. Has been for years. Gerrard was pencilled in to move back but the Xabi role needed Mascherano beside him.

Why is it east financially for Chelsea?
I don't understand, Chelsea did it with an almost net spend of 0

daithijjj

BenThere wrote: »

Can you give a PL example please?
You're not seriously equating the PL to the Italian league are you?

Also, Alonso is a better younger player in the DM role than Stevie playing in an infinitely better team than Stevie. Mmmm which is the easier job? Playing DM for LFC in the PL with Ming in goal or in the Bayern Munich team with Neur in goal???

Example of what?.

Ive given 3 or 4 examples tonight of what im talking about. I may be wrong but i dont see many names from you other than we play Allen for example as def mid?!!!. Im sure everyone would be full of confidence in that one.

I havent said we should sign an old player. The point is that you address the issues in your team. Rodgers seems fixated on attack, its telling everywhere you look.



I dont understand why you're bringing goalkeepers into this

Francie Barrett

I have to admit it, but this was one of the first times I've seen Rodgers really make a balls of a game. The chopping and changing of the formation just shows how badly he misjudged things today. Some of the selections were just completely bizarre as well. I've said it for a long time now, but Lucas just does not fit into this team at all, and any notion that he can adapt must be abandoned. I read that he had just 25 touches of the ball in the first half - that is a truly shocking indictment of him considering it's West Ham we were playing today. He will always be a club legend, but it's time for both the club and the player to part ways. The decision to start Borini was just awful. I like the guy and his attitude, but he's desperately short of the mark for where we need to be.

We have Boro in a few days. I hope that Rodgers rests the first 11 and gives a chance for the fringe players to stake a claim. I'd like to see Enrique, Toure, Lambert, Suso, Markovic and Lallana all start. With Can and Allen crocked, this is the perfect time to consider one of the youngsters. I'd actually like to see Rossiter being given a run out.

I really feel for Sterling in all this. Because the team are doing so awfully, he is having to take more of the burden of changing the game himself. This inevitably makes him more frustrated and forces him into making more mistakes. I have a real worry we could see him go out the door to the likes of Real Madrid if we're not careful.

Francie Barrett

By the way - was anyone watching Alex Song and thinking, we could have done with a player like him? If we wanted him, we could have had him on loan easily. Despite the links at the end of the transfer window, it looks like we passed over him. Big mistake, I think.

BMMachine

well that was awful again. we are so lightweight and our defence was terrible. they need to cop on, fast

daithijjj

Francie Barrett wrote: »

By the way - was anyone watching Alex Song and thinking, we could have done with a player like him? If we wanted him, we could have had him on loan easily. Despite the links at the end of the transfer window, it looks like we passed over him. Big mistake, I think.

I wouldnt have got Song but there were plenty of options out there that could have been better than what we find as our options today.

doc_17

Sakho is so poor. Anyobe who thinks or believes he is a good defender doesn't know anything about soccer. He needs to be dropped , shipped out and we move on. He is so f**king awful it's not funny. I'd take Agger on one leg every day of the week. He reminds me of Djimi, except Djimi was better

Fescue

When Rodgers came in we had real problems scoring goals, heck even Suarez wasn't prolific. He set about improving that and the result was last seasons title challenge. In the long term that cavalier manner of playing football is not reliable.

You need to have defensive stability to be a great team. You can't play breath taking stuff all the time. When you don't you have to be able to shut other teams out.

His task over the next few months is to rectify this problem. If he can't then midtable mediocrity awaits.

Charlie19

Not too many positives to take from our latest setback but I think Mario played well and looked even better watching the motd highlights, he done well for the goal, which was a fantastic finish by Sterling, probably his most cleanly struck shot to date.

The Midfield three where just terrible and bad as Gerrard was, he wasn't the worst, which is scary.

Mig actually looked good at coming out for crosses when normally this would be one of his weak points, but ffs how did he get caught out for the second goal.

If by any fluke we're still in within a shout of making it out of the CL group come December, Rodgers desperately needs to realize that we need two CMs and has to put pressure on the board for some funds.

Not time to start panicking just yet as we've been unlucky with injuries and we're still only 3 points off fourth.

Pulsating Star

Charlie19 wrote: »

Not too many positives to take from our latest setback

For me there is..kinda
At work I hate workarounds, I much prefer things/systems be properly broke otherwise they don't get the attention they deserve and we are left stumbling along. There can be no denying it now.

Mig actually looked good at coming out for crosses when normally this would be one of his weak points,

I also got this impression , maybe only imagined, that he was consciously trying to be more commanding.

T-K-O

rarnes1 wrote: »

Careful now. Don't question the team, it'll be called knee jerk :rolleyes:

#BlameSakho :rolleyes:

T-K-O

daRobot wrote: »

Really? Three out of our past three games have been very poor, and we were lucky to beat Southampton.

It's very worrying.

MD1990 wrote: »

Im usually the 1st one to say knee jerk reaction. Not today this is appalling. Worst performance since Bolton away in 11/12.

Fair enough, having endured the 90 minutes I would agree with the above.

We all know Lucas and Gerrard cannot play together, BR needs to learn this lesson too. In fairness, if Can or Allen were fit, I'm sure they would have started.

Defending is awful, Sahko's header yesterday was pub league stuff but none of our CB's are standing out at the moment. I'm more concerned with Sahko and to a lesser extent Lovern than anything else. Big money players not living up to the hype.

If anyone deserves a run it's Lallana. We need to get Sturridge, Sterling and Lallana in the team.

LuckyLloyd

Running some worst case scenarios over in my mind. What would people say to a season along the lines of:

~60 point season
CL group elimination
No Cup achievements

?

That's what we look like right now tbh. I'm not sure Rodgers would survive that unfortunately.

BenEadir

daithijjj wrote: »

Example of what?.

An example of a 34 year old starting DM in a top 6 or even top 10 PL team.

Even if we ignore the fact Stevie isn't suited to a DM role at 34 he can't be a starting DM in the PL up against high energy mega fit guys 10 years younger than him. He's getting over run and is too easily by passed.

Guy:Incognito

BenEadir wrote: »

An example of a 34 year old starting DM in a top 6 or even top 10 PL team.

Even if we ignore the fact Stevie isn't suited to a DM role at 34 he can't be a starting DM in the PL up against high energy mega fit guys 10 years younger than him. He's getting over run and is too easily by passed.

Mega fit young guys like frank Lampard?


Next week is another young up and come, Gareth Barry.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Running some worst case scenarios over in my mind. What would people say to a season along the lines of:

~60 point season
CL group elimination
No Cup achievements

?

That's what we look like right now tbh. I'm not sure Rodgers would survive that unfortunately.

Realistically Rodgers future isn't something you should be considering as anything other than a given at this moment of time. He's 5 games since the most impressive season from Liverpool in my living memory.

Soft Falling Rain

doc_17 wrote: »

Sakho is so poor. Anyobe who thinks or believes he is a good defender doesn't know anything about soccer. He needs to be dropped , shipped out and we move on. He is so f**king awful it's not funny. I'd take Agger on one leg every day of the week. He reminds me of Djimi, except Djimi was better

Ah now here!!

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

Realistically Rodgers future isn't something you should be considering as anything other than a given at this moment of time. He's 5 games since the most impressive season from Liverpool in my living memory.

If the scenario I outlined above comes to pass he'll be under immense pressure at the very least

ASOT

All this Sakho hate is hilarious.

hefferboi

Sakho wasn't on the pitch when we conceded the 2 goals before the 10th minute, yet he's still getting abuse. Same lads are probably saying Gerrard can still start consistently for another 2-3 years at dm.

Idiots.