Plumbing Advice

Elothar

Hi all,

I am looking to move my attic water tank and was hoping to get some advice about it.

I want to move it about 5 feet and twist it sideways and move it up about a foot in height. It has 5 pipes going in/out of the tank. 3 are of copper and two are of plastic/flexible tubing. The tank sits on two large planks of wood which look like they are attached to the wood frame of the attic roof trusses.

I have little to no experience of plumbing but would consider myself fairly handy at DIY. I've already looked for quotes from plumbers but they are far too expensive for my budget.

What I need to know is basically 3 things

1. Can I cut the copper and plastic pipes and extend the distance between the cuts with plastic tubing and new connectors at either end? I would rather leave the pipes connected to the tank and cut them somewhere along the length. This would mean the connections would still be good at the tank and I would only have to worry about the connections in the new sections. Is there any issues with using plastic tubing between two sections of copper piping?

2. As far as the connections go what would be my best/simplest option? Do I just measure the diameter of the pipes to be cut and then buy the same size flexible pipe and connections?

3. At the moment the tank is in the middle of the attic, prime storage space hence the moving. Is there an issue with moving the support beams that the tank will sit on to the side of the truss? If you consider the truss to look like a "W" I want to move it to one of the "V"'s , if I'm explaining that correctly?. It will be sitting on the same sort of set up that it was before except in a different location on the truss and slightly higher.

Any information on these questions would be very gratefully received.

If I have this right in my head the general plan would be to already have measured the separate lengths of new piping needed and to have the connections attached so that they would only need to be connected to the cut ends of the old piping then my steps would be:

1. Turn off the mains supply so no new water can enter the tank
2. Drain the tank though the bath taps
3. Clean the tank once the water is all gone (If needed)
4. Cut pre-designated places on all 5 pipes (3 copper and 2 plastic)
5. Move tank out of the way
6. Change supports to new location.
7. Put tank into new location.
8. Connect new sections of flexible tubing with connections to existing pipes
9. After securing all new connections turn mains supply back on to fill tank again
10. Sort out any air locks

If I'm missing any steps or you have any advice on the steps I'd be very grateful. Thanks for reading.

K.Flyer

Elothar wrote: »

...
I have little to no experience of plumbing...

Not wanting to sound cynical or anything like that, but that sentence alone rings alarm bells for a job as described above.
Its up to you, but if it all goes horribly wrong and you cause water damage to your house, you could find yourself in trouble with your insurance company. And the price of an insured professional doing the work would then seem very cheap by comparison to the cost of the repairs.

Elothar

Hi K.Flyer,

thanks for the response, even if it does sound cynical! . Only joking, it is sound advice and you're right that if things go horribly wrong I could end up paying more in repairs than I would have done to get a professional to do the job in the first place. That said I believe in doing my homework before I undertake anything. That's why I'm looking for advice. The more knowledge I have the better decisions I can make. I'm hoping that people with experience can give me the benefit of their knowledge so I can avoid any potential pitfalls and major problems. I have an abundance of common sense and believe that proper planning can get you a long way, added to the (hopefully) wonderful advice I get on here and elsewhere I believe I'll be up to the task.

Wearb

Elothar wrote: »

Hi K.Flyer,

thanks for the response, even if it does sound cynical! . Only joking, it is sound advice and you're right that if things go horribly wrong I could end up paying more in repairs than I would have done to get a professional to do the job in the first place. That said I believe in doing my homework before I undertake anything. That's why I'm looking for advice. The more knowledge I have the better decisions I can make. I'm hoping that people with experience can give me the benefit of their knowledge so I can avoid any potential pitfalls and major problems. I have an abundance of common sense and believe that proper planning can get you a long way, added to the (hopefully) wonderful advice I get on here and elsewhere I believe I'll be up to the task.

Sometimes a trained eye needs to look over a job to spot things that are not thought of from a distance.
A bit like learning to cycle; you could read and reasearch loads, but in the end it's unlikely that you could just get on and master it first time.

Wearb

Elothar wrote: »

Hi K.Flyer,

thanks for the response, even if it does sound cynical! . Only joking, it is sound advice and you're right that if things go horribly wrong I could end up paying more in repairs than I would have done to get a professional to do the job in the first place. That said I believe in doing my homework before I undertake anything. That's why I'm looking for advice. The more knowledge I have the better decisions I can make. I'm hoping that people with experience can give me the benefit of their knowledge so I can avoid any potential pitfalls and major problems. I have an abundance of common sense and believe that proper planning can get you a long way, added to the (hopefully) wonderful advice I get on here and elsewhere I believe I'll be up to the task.

Sometimes a trained eye needs to look over a job to spot things that are not thought of from a distance.
A bit like learning to cycle; you could read and reasearch loads, but in the end it's unlikely that you could just get on and master it first time.

Elothar

Hi Wearb,

thanks for the response.
I do appreciate the advice and the analogy. However if everyone followed that advice then we'd have no DIY done at all, and none of us would be trying anything new, like riding bikes.
It's true that I am unlikely to master plumbing by taking advice from the people on here. Yet I may, with some proper advice, be able to manage to move the tank myself. It seems a fairly logical job, at least in my head it is. I understand that yourself and K.Flyer feel that you have to warn of the dangers. I would do the same if I was giving advice on something I had knowledge of. Yet after that the onus is on myself whether to take that knowledge on board and assume the risk anyway. What I lack is the technical knowledge for the questions above. Even after I have my questions answered I'll still have to sit down and weigh up the pro's and con's and then decide if it's worth 'getting on the bike'

Wearb

Elothar wrote: »

Hi Wearb,

thanks for the response.
I do appreciate the advice and the analogy. However if everyone followed that advice then we'd have no DIY done at all, and none of us would be trying anything new, like riding bikes.
It's true that I am unlikely to master plumbing by taking advice from the people on here. Yet I may, with some proper advice, be able to manage to move the tank myself. It seems a fairly logical job, at least in my head it is. I understand that yourself and K.Flyer feel that you have to warn of the dangers. I would do the same if I was giving advice on something I had knowledge of. Yet after that the onus is on myself whether to take that knowledge on board and assume the risk anyway. What I lack is the technical knowledge for the questions above. Even after I have my questions answered I'll still have to sit down and weigh up the pro's and con's and then decide if it's worth 'getting on the bike'

Suit your self.
We have successful DIY because people follow and appreciate such advice, not in spite if it.

Elothar

I didn't say I wasn't appreciative of any advice. In fact quite the contrary, any advice, even if I feel it goes against what I want in my head, is appreciated. More knowledge helps me make more informed decisions.
I don't know what you feel I was trying to say to you in my last post but it sounds like you feel I was being dismissive or smart or something? That was not the intention believe me. If you feel any offense was given then you're reading it wrong for that was never my intention.

Wearb

Elothar wrote: »

I didn't say I wasn't appreciative of any advice. In fact quite the contrary, any advice, even if I feel it goes against what I want in my head, is appreciated. More knowledge helps me make more informed decisions.
I don't know what you feel I was trying to say to you in my last post but it sounds like you feel I was being dismissive or smart or something? That was not the intention believe me. If you feel any offense was given then you're reading it wrong for that was never my intention.

"However if everyone followed that advice then we'd have no DIY done at all, and none of us would be trying anything new"

The above sounds dismissive to me.

Elothar

Like I said it was not meant to be dismissive. If you look at the whole sentence including the emoticon you'll see it was said in a jokey manner. Dismissive comments are not usually delivered like that. It was not my intention for it to be perceived that way either!

I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to me and I'm sorry you feel that I was being dismissive.

Wearb

Elothar wrote: »

Like I said it was not meant to be dismissive. If you look at the whole sentence including the emoticon you'll see it was said in a jokey manner. Dismissive comments are not usually delivered like that. It was not my intention for it to be perceived that way either!

I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to me and I'm sorry you feel that I was being dismissive.

Ok. It had just turned into a "my dad can beat your dad" discussion anyway.

Elothar

I don't get that reference, "a 'my dad can beat your dad' discussion"??

But while you're here can you answer any of the technical questions I originally posted?

josealdo

Elothar wrote: »

Hi all,

I am looking to move my attic water tank and was hoping to get some advice about it.

I want to move it about 5 feet and twist it sideways and move it up about a foot in height. It has 5 pipes going in/out of the tank. 3 are of copper and two are of plastic/flexible tubing. The tank sits on two large planks of wood which look like they are attached to the wood frame of the attic roof trusses.

I have little to no experience of plumbing but would consider myself fairly handy at DIY. I've already looked for quotes from plumbers but they are far too expensive for my budget.

What I need to know is basically 3 things

1. Can I cut the copper and plastic pipes and extend the distance between the cuts with plastic tubing and new connectors at either end? I would rather leave the pipes connected to the tank and cut them somewhere along the length. This would mean the connections would still be good at the tank and I would only have to worry about the connections in the new sections. Is there any issues with using plastic tubing between two sections of copper piping?

2. As far as the connections go what would be my best/simplest option? Do I just measure the diameter of the pipes to be cut and then buy the same size flexible pipe and connections?

3. At the moment the tank is in the middle of the attic, prime storage space hence the moving. Is there an issue with moving the support beams that the tank will sit on to the side of the truss? If you consider the truss to look like a "W" I want to move it to one of the "V"'s , if I'm explaining that correctly?. It will be sitting on the same sort of set up that it was before except in a different location on the truss and slightly higher.

Any information on these questions would be very gratefully received.

If I have this right in my head the general plan would be to already have measured the separate lengths of new piping needed and to have the connections attached so that they would only need to be connected to the cut ends of the old piping then my steps would be:

1. Turn off the mains supply so no new water can enter the tank
2. Drain the tank though the bath taps
3. Clean the tank once the water is all gone (If needed)
4. Cut pre-designated places on all 5 pipes (3 copper and 2 plastic)
5. Move tank out of the way
6. Change supports to new location.
7. Put tank into new location.
8. Connect new sections of flexible tubing with connections to existing pipes
9. After securing all new connections turn mains supply back on to fill tank again
10. Sort out any air locks

If I'm missing any steps or you have any advice on the steps I'd be very grateful. Thanks for reading.

sounds straight forward enough . ive done a few . you shouldn't have any major headaches . make sure kettle is full before turning mains off .LOL

Elothar

Hi figs666,

Having the kettle full is ALWAYS good advice no matter what you're doing.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I assume that you are saying I am correct in the statements I made originally and that there are no major issues with using flexible tubing to bridge the gaps with the existing piping? Or that there's no major issues with moving the tank along the truss?

Wearb

Elothar wrote: »

I don't get that reference, "a 'my dad can beat your dad' discussion"??

But while you're here can you answer any of the technical questions I originally posted?

Try and make sure an internal wall takes most of the weight so as not to cause a sag in your celing.

josealdo

Elothar wrote: »

Hi figs666,

Having the kettle full is ALWAYS good advice no matter what you're doing.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I assume that you are saying I am correct in the statements I made originally and that there are no major issues with using flexible tubing to bridge the gaps with the existing piping? Or that there's no major issues with moving the tank along the truss?

you can go from copper to plastic (qualplex) . it looks cat . but nobody will see it only you . but a better job would be remove the existing copper pipe and replace with a longer piece but like i said nobody sees it so its really up to you and your pocket . if it was my house id just lenghten like you said .

as for the supports . you can still support from the orginal position by building a frame to spread the load . your raising it too so you'll need to build something anyway

good luck mate

Elothar

The weight should still be taken up by the wooden roof frame, though where I want to situate the tank is directly over one of the main walls in the house so if worse comes to worst and the supports do give way the wall should stop the tank coming down through the ceiling.

Elothar

Yeah I don't mind what it looks like as long as it will work properly figs, and as you said the only one seeing it will be me. . I'll be using the same frame that's already there. I'll just be moving it and then adding some extra height to it, so structurally it'll be the same as it is now.

Thanks for the feedback and the luck, I'll probably need it too. Mind yourself.

scudo2

Inserts.

josealdo

scudo2 wrote: »

Inserts.

inserts in the qualpex ? of course dude

josealdo

Elothar wrote: »

Yeah I don't mind what it looks like as long as it will work properly figs, and as you said the only one seeing it will be me. . I'll be using the same frame that's already there. I'll just be moving it and then adding some extra height to it, so structurally it'll be the same as it is now.

Thanks for the feedback and the luck, I'll probably need it too. Mind yourself.

good luck dude . easy job

Dtp1979

Use inserts
Make sure every inch of the tank base is covered
Don't strain the fittings on the tank
Make sure the plastic pipes aren't rising or dipping in spots
Don't insulate under the tank
Insulate the pipes
Use ptfe on the olives if plastic pipe. Uniwhite on the olives if using copper. Don't put ptfe on the threads of compression fittings.
Compress the olive before applying tape/uniwhite.
And good luck

Elothar

Hi Dtp1979,

thanks for the advice. . I just have to figure out what most of your words mean and I'll be fine. .

I'll do my research and find out what 'inserts' 'ptfe' 'uniwhite' and 'olives' are. If I can just ask what you mean by 'Don't strain the fittings on the tank' and 'make sure every inch of the tank base is covered' mean?? I reckon I can figure out the rest.

Dtp1979

Elothar wrote: »

Hi Dtp1979,

thanks for the advice. . I just have to figure out what most of your words mean and I'll be fine. .

I'll do my research and find out what 'inserts' 'ptfe' 'uniwhite' and 'olives' are. If I can just ask what you mean by 'Don't strain the fittings on the tank' and 'make sure every inch of the tank base is covered' mean?? I reckon I can figure out the rest.

Don't strain , as in don't have the pipe pulling the fitting in the tank to one side or up or down.
As for the base, I mean have it covered. As in use a solid complete platform that covers the entire base. Don't just leave it sitting on the joists cause the part of the tank not sitting on the timber will sag and eventually crack

Sleeper12

I can't believe everyone is given advise on this one. He hasn't a clue what he is doing.
Even if he does it & everything seems fine for awhile, he might make a bags of the expansion pipe & flood the house in 6 months time.
Sorry mate I say this in the nicest way possible but this is not a diy job for someone not familiar with plumbing.
Pay for a plumber

Amrightnow

Hi all just replying to your post . I am a fully qualified plumber with over 15 years experience and reading thru your post I get the feeling your going to tackle this job yourself even if I recommend you getting a plumber. Just Friday gone I had to move two storage tanks in roof space ahead of an attic conversion . The job ran smoothly but it still took me a total of 10 hours to complete granted this job needed pipe work drilled thru joists.
My advise to you is if you do your homework you will easily find the information you need to have to buy fittings and pipe work but remember this is your home your dealing with think of the worst case suituation.
Key factors in moving a storage tank:
:Make sure all pipe work is fully drained before cutting sounds obvious but if u cut pipe and there is still water in pipe it's going to end up on your ceiling and the smallest amount of water will stain your plasterboard ie: needs painting again
:Try to make sure all pipes leading to new tank position don't rise have level at best because pipes that rise will airlock
: before you cut copper pipes invest in a 1/2 inch pipe slice and a 3/4 pipe slice these cut pipes and leave a nice reamed edge because if u cut with a hacksaw the rough edge can damage fitting especially if u plan to use push fit fittings
: make sure u make a new supportive tank stand don't take for granted just because the old tank position was load bearing that the new position is to . Water tanks are heavy when full and u need to think of long jeberty
: make sure your hot expansion pipe can rise high enough in its new position and is securely strapped and lagged because it can cause noise when it expands
: when filling and commissioning check all fitting and then check again even the smallest weeping fitting can and will cause a leak even if it's years later

This can be done properly buy the average joe but as I stated u don't get second chances with water hence why professional plumbers still need liability insurance the more I think about this the more am going to recommend against trying this yourself.
Sorry if my post is all negative and of course there will be posters who think they can tackle any trade themselfs but every man to there own trade I wouldn't risk it with my own home

Elothar

Hi Sleeper12,

thanks for the advice. .
As I said in my original post I cannot afford a plumber. I'd love nothing more than to leave it all to a professional to do and not worry about it. That leaves me two choices, do it myself or leave it where it is. I am looking for advice in order to make that decision. All people have done is give me knowledge. It's up to me whether I take their advice on board or ignore it when I come to decide.
You're right I might make a bags of the job. Then again I might not. Either way the choice and the consequences are mine.
Just as an aside, how does one get familiar with plumbing except by doing plumbing? As Wearb pointed out earlier reading about it is one thing actually doing it another. Admittedly I may be trying to swim the channel before doing a length of the pool first but, to continue the analogy, as long as my technique is good and my strength holds out I believe I should make it safely back to shore.

@Dtp1979, thanks very much for clarifying. I didn't want to go near the connections on the tank itself and if i do attempt this I'll make sure to both cover the base and make sure I don't strain the fittings. Thanks again.

Elothar

Hi Amrightnow,

thanks for the very informative advice.
I truly have not decided yet whether I'm going to move the tank. I'm in the, very slow, process of insulating my attic and have it stripped completely back at the moment. I would LIKE the tank moved but if I feel it is not worth the possible negative repercussions then I'll leave it where it is and insulate around it.
I always do my homework and this is why I started this thread to get as much advice, for and against, the idea. I don't believe in going at something unless I have a plan in place and have already done the job in my head.
Your key factors were great. These are things I don't know and new knowledge is always good to have. Even if I don't use it this time they may come in handy for other projects along the line.
Again thanks for replying and for the tips.

scudo2

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I can't believe everyone is given advise on this one. He hasn't a clue what he is doing.
Even if he does it & everything seems fine for awhile, he might make a bags of the expansion pipe & flood the house in 6 months time.
Sorry mate I say this in the nicest way possible but this is not a diy job for someone not familiar with plumbing.
Pay for a plumber

YES AND NO,

Here's my two cent's worth.
OP is VERY determined to do job.

This is a Q&A helpful plumbing forum in which OP asked for advice. The first and strongest advice was not to attempt a DIY.
When he the OP still wanted to risk it and push on then he was given advice that hopefully might be helpful. ( by text ) always an OMG scenario in my opinion.


It's a bit like OP wanting to jump out of an aeroplane.
We advice not to jump.
He's going to jump anyway.
We advise wearing a parachute.
Unfortunately OP packs his own parachute.
It should work.!!

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

YES AND NO,

Here's my two cent's worth.
OP is VERY determined to do job.

This is a Q&A helpful plumbing forum in which OP asked for advice. The first and strongest advice was not to attempt a DIY.
When he the OP still wanted to risk it and push on then he was given advice that hopefully might be helpful. ( by text ) always an OMG scenario in my opinion.


It's a bit like OP wanting to jump out of an aeroplane.
We advice not to jump.
He's going to jump anyway.
We advise wearing a parachute.
Unfortunately OP packs his own parachute.
It should work.!!

nail on the head scudo

Sleeper12

Elothar wrote: »

Hi Amrightnow,

thanks for the very informative advice.
I truly have not decided yet whether I'm going to move the tank. I'm in the, very slow, process of insulating my attic and have it stripped completely back at the moment. I would LIKE the tank moved but if I feel it is not worth the possible negative repercussions then I'll leave it where it is and insulate around it.
I always do my homework and this is why I started this thread to get as much advice, for and against, the idea. I don't believe in going at something unless I have a plan in place and have already done the job in my head.
Your key factors were great. These are things I don't know and new knowledge is always good to have. Even if I don't use it this time they may come in handy for other projects along the line.
Again thanks for replying and for the tips.

Remember you NEVER insulate under your water tank. You need this small amount of heat loss to (hopefully) stop your tank from freezing in the winter. Also you never push insulation into the eaves. You need some fresh air in the attic to stop condensation in the summer.

Elothar

Hi scudo2,

thanks for the reply.

Your analogy made me laugh out loud. . And to be fair it is a little like that, though I do fully intend to be landing safely if I do jump so I'll be making sure I pack that parachute right first time!

Elothar

I was aware of not having to insulate under the tank Sleeper12 and I've already used old election posters at the eaves to ensure I can push the insulation right up to the eaves while still leaving airflow through the attic space.
Thanks for the tips though, always welcome.

Sleeper12

Elothar wrote: »

I was aware of not having to insulate under the tank Sleeper12 and I've already used old election posters at the eaves to ensure I can push the insulation right up to the eaves while still leaving airflow through the attic space.
Thanks for the tips though, always welcome.

I don't think the election posters will do the job. I think the regs are to leave the last 9 or 12 inches without insulation. The term insulating the attic is misleading. Think of it as insulating the bedroom ceiling. Thinking of it this way you'll see there is no need insulating the top of a 9" wall.
Maybe some of the guys who have done the SEI courses can give you a better understanding of the insulation. All I can say is it is a big no-no to go into the eaves. Its probably worse with the election posters as the eaves should be kept totally clear.
Good luck

Elothar

I may not have explained myself properly about the election posters Sleeper12. I have them tacked to the upright sections of the trusses and bent at the bottom so that they meet the plasterboard that is the ceiling of the room below. There is the distance of the width of the truss behind each poster for airflow on both sides of the attic. The eaves themselves have been left free of obstruction, and the reason I used the posters was so I could insulate as efficiently as possible without clogging up the eaves and stifling the airflow. In essence there should be the same amount of air coming through the attic as there was before it's just now diverted from flowing straight across the floor of the attic. I'd send ya a pic of it but I don't think I can post them yet.

Elothar

Hi all,

just wanted to let ye know I've decided not to attempt to move the tank myself. After listening to your advice and weighing up the pro's and cons I decided that I'll wait and save up to pay a professional to do it. At least that way I'll have piece of mind. I'm still going to insulate the attic myself and floor it but I'll make sure I do it with an eye to moving the tank at a later date. Thanks for all the replies, they really helped!

josealdo

Elothar wrote: »

Hi all,

just wanted to let ye know I've decided not to attempt to move the tank myself. After listening to your advice and weighing up the pro's and cons I decided that I'll wait and save up to pay a professional to do it. At least that way I'll have piece of mind. I'm still going to insulate the attic myself and floor it but I'll make sure I do it with an eye to moving the tank at a later date. Thanks for all the replies, they really helped!

you can do it

Elothar

Lol. Nothing like a bit of positivity eh figs?
Thanks for the vote of confidence but there's too much that can go wrong, especially as I have no other plumbing experience. I reckon I should maybe start getting a little bit of smaller DIY plumbing experience before tackling something this big.