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Proposal for restucture of championship
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02-09-2014 12:43am#1Taken from my blog https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com.
Would like feedback and discussion here or on the site.
This year’s & last year’s championship have not being classics but while they may have lacked in providing exhilaration, they have arguably provided a lot of signposts as to the future of the game. There are two things from the two most recent championships that have not provoked the discussion that they should have done.
1- There are very few upsets currently in the championship compared to what is normal in GAA history. There hasn’t been a big upset in the championship this year. The big teams win and win well against the small teams. Last year Donegal losing to Monaghan was the only big upset in the whole championship.
2- There are not enough games between the big teams in the championship and too many between big teams and small teams which are over by half time.
In relation to point 1, this is a very worrying trend that will affect attendances and interest in weaker counties. The underdog succeeding in shocking the big counties is a huge “draw” to the championship. If the likes of Louth take it as read that they can’t beat or compete with Kildare than what does it mean when Kildare take it as read that they can’t beat or compete with Dublin? It means that supporters in both these counties are in a hopeless state and will lose interest.
Supporters not supporting is a clear and present danger to the GAA’s success. A way needs to be found to close the disparity between the small and large counties. How to do this is quite a task.
Regarding point 2, the Mayo and Kerry games have shown that GAA is an exceptional sport in terms of excitement when played with speed, athleticism and physicality by the elite teams. There was mild sensory overload experienced from watching the game yesterday it was of such excitement. We need more of these games earlier in the summer. Intercounty players are training too much while the game time they get is too short. This issue is slightly easier to solve but won’t be a walk in the park either.
The most regular, boring and thoughtless idea put forward to revive the excitement of the championship is to do away with the provincial system and have an open championship. The only advantage this would have would be every team has the same chance at the start of the championship. Right now the teams in smaller provinces have an advantage as they have to play less games to win honours. This is uneven, stupid and different from any other sporting tournament I can think of. However while it solves that problem, it does nothing to solve the two issues I raised at the start of the piece. If there is an open draw and say Sligo get Dublin and Louth (sorry for picking on Louth) get Mayo. We are still going to get small attendances and games that are over by half time. It actually deincentivises weaker counties as it makes Sam Maguire the only prize which for a lot of counties is unachieveable, at least the provincial cups or qualifying for a provincial final are someway achieveable.
Another plan put forward is to have a champions League format which will probably mean a seeding system. This will at least lead to more games but could the extra games be complete mismatches, I think so. For example let’s say there is seeding and the National league division the counties are in decides each counties seeding. A typical group would be Kerry, Galway, Fermanagh and Carlow with two to qualify to the knockouts. Are these games anyone wants to see? If a team wins its first two games or loses it first two it basically leaves the last game as a dead rubber. All I see from these solutions are small teams getting hidings from the big teams, dead rubbers and collective disinterest from GAA supporters. If this was introduced then the only way I could see it rospering would be for the team that finishes third in a group play other teams that finish third for a place in the knockouts. This would at least keep the dead rubbers at bay but would lead to a lot of games being played for a new structure still setup to benefit the big teams. It doesn’t solve either of the problems I’ve mentioned in my introduction and takes away the provincial system. Plus 33 teams doesn’t easily fit in a champions league structure.
OK so it’s time for me to provide my plan for a fairer more exciting championship and standback because it’s a bit out there. Before I do remember that this year’s league was probably the most exciting ever. Probably more exciting than the championship if truth be told. Loads of tight games played by counties against other counties close to their own level. My idea is to make the league into the championship. Instead of playing each other once, the teams in the league play each other home and away. The top two teams in division one contest the All-Ireland final for Sam. The bottom two get relegated to the next lower division. Prize money is introduced based on league placing so dead rubbers are cut down on. There is one obvious drawback to my plan. Only eight counties at the start of the year can win Sam. This is a problem but at the start of this year only Mayo, Dublin, Cork, Kerry & Donegal had realistic ambitions of winning Sam so is it really that different? As a Kildare fan I knew we weren’t going to win Sam at the start of the year so I would be fine with losing the chance to win it unless we were in division one. The provincial system would be history which is unfortunate but it has being replaced with a divisional system where winning a major trophy is more achieveable to every team and the threat of relegation especially from division one is something to be avoided at all costs. My system could do with more knockout games is another drawback.
I’m sensing readers may yet not be totally convinced by my plan so let me go through the finance of it. The biggest problem with the current league from a sports consumer point of view is that too few of the games are televised and the TV highlights package showing games is poor. Most games have no camera present. My plan is for the establishment of a GAA TV channel with games on Saturday and Sunday throughout the day so you can watch games all day if you wish. All games would have cameras, be commentated on and have analysts present. The TV channel is a subscription based service available on PCs, laptops, phones and possibly on TV as well if possible. RTE/Sky would still show the biggest games live and highlights of all games. Croke Park would be used to host the biggest games once both County Boards agree to it. It would enable GAA county boards to sell Season tickets with a better idea on the buyer’s side of what exactly this entitles you to in terms of knowing for certain your county will play at least 14 games, 7 at home and 7 away. There would be more of an opportunity to run a fantasy football competition which is a big factor in the popularity of the English Premier league and the US National Football league. It would take Dublin out of Croke Park for championship games. There could be relegation/promotion playoffs say between teams that finish second last in one division against the team that finished second from top in the lower division. All of these games would lead to more excitement and more money for the GAA. Quarter finals or round of 16 games played in a half empty Croke Park would be a thing of the past. The amount of games available to watch would compete with English soccer and the successful model of American football is also being copied to some extent.
So I think I have solved the problem of there not being enough close games between teams of a similar level in this years’ & last years’ championship. But I have clearly made the other problem worse as now division 1 teams don’t play against teams from other divisions so a big carrot for the players on the weaker or middling counties is gone. My idea for this is to form amalgamate teams from Divisions two, three and four and play them in a mini tournament against the All Ireland champions in a knockout event. While these are exhibition games, I think you can turn these into a big event. Secure a big sponsor that will offer benefits to players that take part. If I was the GAA I would reward players who are picked on the amalgamate team or who are on the All Ireland champions’ panel with a percentage of the gate receipts but this is probably a bridge too far for the GAA. They would definitely need to get something in place to make playing in & winning these exhibition games attractive. Getting picked for the amalgamate team is something that could be voted on by the subscribers to the GAA channel discussed above. I’m not sure who would manage the amalgamate teams but it’s not a big problem. Perhaps they could be managed by Pat Spillane, Joe Brolly & Colm O’Rourke to add a bit more spice to proceedings.
To show the appeal of these games, I picked a Division two amalgamate side below. Would a crowd come to see these lads in action against Dublin? Look at that full forward line and I think they would if the package was marketed well and the sponsors were large companies that would bring a festival feel to the whole event.
P O’Rourke
D Keogan. E McGee. C Walshe
C McKeever K Lacey G Bradshaw
P Keenan N Gallagher
R Munnelly S Walsh O MacNiallas
J Clarke M Murphy C McManus
Subs:
Paul Durcan
Mickey Newman
Drew Wylie
Conor Laverty
Colm Begley
Graham Reilly
Frank McGlynn
Dessie Mone
Since writing the above, Donegal have comprehensively beaten Dublin which means the championship still has a bit of life in it from the point of view of its ability to provide shocks. But my points about there not being a shock before now and the championship only getting going in August still stands. Perhaps my proposed system could be tweaked into two tiers rather than four divisions but the remaining plan around more blanket tv coverage would stay as it is as well as one high profile game between the players from an amalgamated bottom tier vs the champions of the top tier.
In consclusion, I would think there are drawbacks to my proposal but I see a hunger and an opportunity to modernise. Too many counties are out of their depth against the top eight and expecting these counties to get to the level where they can compete with the top 8 is not something I can foresee or provide any suggestion of a plan for a way it could remotely be done. So the compromise I’m proposing is that the best players in the lower tier counties get to play against the best team in Ireland in a high profile one off or two off game. There are too many John Heslins, Emlyn Mulligans, Cian Mackeys and Donie Shines that don’t get near enough exposure because they are from the wrong part of the country.1
Comments
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TL:DR. Whats the synopsis?0
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basically merge the league and championship. spilt into a 4 tier championship, tiers decided by league that county plays in. each team plays each other home and away in its tier. Top 2 in each tier play each other in final. only tier 1 compete for sam maguire.
have gaa channel with a subscription package setup and all games shown live throughout saturday and sunday of weekends. biggest games still on rte. season tickets guarantee you attendance to at least 7 championship games
after tier winners and relegations decided have a competition between all ireland champions and amalgamations of the best players from the other three tiers. give it a profile by allowing supscription holders to vote for the amalgamation teams. also sell sponsorships hard, give botherline professional benefits to the players taking part and push promotion of the competition very hard and. make it a festival of GAA.
advantages:
does away with big counties giving small counties pastings.
much more big games between big teams, championship nearly over by the time it gets going currently.
addresses to some degree the growing gap between big and small counties by allowing the best from small counties compete vs the best team nationally0 -
Nah. I'm a Laois fan and this year we almost beat Clare in the hurling, and Dublin in the football (I'm not going to rise to the "no you didn't" etc. - the first time Dublin went ahead was the 43rd min, and up until the 55th there was only a goal in it. We met Clare in the league and were only 2 points down at the 70min. I cannot express what a goal would have meant to me).
The point anyway is, though we are not a top tier county in either league, we did come close to beating the reigning champions in both codes. Its amazing that feeling as a fan, and I wouldnt accept the lower divisions being left to rot.
In the hurling Laois play in a preliminary round robin with teams our own standard, and the winners go into the Championship propper. I think thats the model to replicate. More games, helps develop the weaker counties, prevents hammerings.
I do agree though that the main summer attraction should have more games, and the way to do that is a league structure. However, you cant expect armatures to play 60 games a season.0 -
I'm doing away with the league & merging it into championship. I don't think they'll be playing 60 games a season. More like 14 for their county. Are you counting them playing every club game?0
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You shouldn't completely get rid of the big v small counties. If you do that the gap widens and its harder to make up the different
Would introducing prize money based on finishing position be such a big motivator? It doesn't really change much for supporters views regarding dead rubbers.
You are looking to NFL and EPL too much IMO and the football championship cant really be compared to them
I don't like your idea for amalgamate teams from Divisions two, three and four and play them in a mini tournament against the All Ireland champions in a knockout event working. It may attract some crowds initially but would players after novelty wears off want it? No IMO as club championships etc are in full flow0 -
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Big fat no.
Imagine Fermanagh in 2004 were a kick of a ball from an All-Ireland Final and in the replay were beaten by Mayo by only 2 points... No chance of that happening under your mad plan.
Imagine Wexford in 2008; Dublin beat Wexford in Leinster by 23 points. Tyrone beat Dublin in the QF by 12 points and it shoudl've been more. The eventual All Ireland champions then beat Wexford by 6.
And what of Sligo v Kerry in 2009..
You proposal is for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. The biggest issue in the Championship is the Provincial System. Solve that and you'll solve the biggest problem. We all have our ideas on how and why but your system is not the answer.0 -
What I would like to see happen is something that would put the club back to the top of the pile when it comes to importance in the structure of the championship and the calendar.
Too many counties are delaying the club championships now, and this is having a knock effect down through the age groups.
Secondly, by and large, with a few noticeable exceptions is quite boring up to the start of August - thats three months of fairly boring standard. This is what I would like to see:
Football with 32 counties (maybe need tweaking on this number).
League:
league needs to be downsized and finished quicker - I would get rid of semi finals and finals and just leave it as a top of table wins.
Championship:
Round 1:
8 Groups of 4 seeded. (Need to work out how seeding works for year 1)
Thats three games where first game happens on the first weekend in May and every two weeks after that finishing up on the first weekend of June.
Club committments to be honored in the non-Intercounty weekends of May - this is a rule needs to implemented at congress!
Round 2:
The top two from each group go forward to the Sam Maguire Competition.
The bottom two go to the second tier competition - both formats are identical so I will just describe the top tier.
4 Groups of 4 teams. The draw should force two top place teams and two second place teams from each of the Round 1 draws.
Three matches to be played starting on the third weekend in June and every two weeks thereafter finishing on the third weekend in July.
That leaves two free weekends between round 1 and round 2 and a weekend between each of the round 2 games for club commitments.
All of the above games to be played at neutral venues unless counties want or have home and away agreements.
Going by the 2014 calendar, it would now be the 20th of July and every county will have played 6 games. There would have been no 6 day turn arounds, and if everyone was forced to, there would be a hell of a lot of club football played throughout the country on dry ground.
Time for a break - the top two from each of the groups go to the quarter finals. I would leave this for the weekend after the August Bank Holiday weekend, ideally as two double headers. All to be played in Croke Park.
And then continue on with semis and final into September as normal.
Hurling would be similar but smaller with possibly two games between each of the teams to fill out the season a bit.
I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with the above, but it is just my opinion. Personally I think the provincials are dead and gone now and its time to leave it go.0 -
What I would like to see happen is something that would put the club back to the top of the pile when it comes to importance in the structure of the championship and the calendar.
Too many counties are delaying the club championships now, and this is having a knock effect down through the age groups.
Secondly, by and large, with a few noticeable exceptions is quite boring up to the start of August - thats three months of fairly boring standard. This is what I would like to see:
Football with 32 counties (maybe need tweaking on this number).
League:
league needs to be downsized and finished quicker - I would get rid of semi finals and finals and just leave it as a top of table wins.
Championship:
Round 1:
8 Groups of 4 seeded. (Need to work out how seeding works for year 1)
Thats three games where first game happens on the first weekend in May and every two weeks after that finishing up on the first weekend of June.
Club committments to be honored in the non-Intercounty weekends of May - this is a rule needs to implemented at congress!
Round 2:
The top two from each group go forward to the Sam Maguire Competition.
The bottom two go to the second tier competition - both formats are identical so I will just describe the top tier.
4 Groups of 4 teams. The draw should force two top place teams and two second place teams from each of the Round 1 draws.
Three matches to be played starting on the third weekend in June and every two weeks thereafter finishing on the third weekend in July.
That leaves two free weekends between round 1 and round 2 and a weekend between each of the round 2 games for club commitments.
All of the above games to be played at neutral venues unless counties want or have home and away agreements.
Going by the 2014 calendar, it would now be the 20th of July and every county will have played 6 games. There would have been no 6 day turn arounds, and if everyone was forced to, there would be a hell of a lot of club football played throughout the country on dry ground.
Time for a break - the top two from each of the groups go to the quarter finals. I would leave this for the weekend after the August Bank Holiday weekend, ideally as two double headers. All to be played in Croke Park.
And then continue on with semis and final into September as normal.
Hurling would be similar but smaller with possibly two games between each of the teams to fill out the season a bit.
I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with the above, but it is just my opinion. Personally I think the provincials are dead and gone now and its time to leave it go.
I think its the way it should be done but if all counties were at a fairly similar level. But there are going to be an awful lot of pastings I'd fear especially in the first group stage. Also 33 teams take part in the football championship so it gets slightly awkward in terms of a champions league format.0 -
BonnieSituation wrote: »Big fat no.
Imagine Fermanagh in 2004 were a kick of a ball from an All-Ireland Final and in the replay were beaten by Mayo by only 2 points... No chance of that happening under your mad plan.
Imagine Wexford in 2008; Dublin beat Wexford in Leinster by 23 points. Tyrone beat Dublin in the QF by 12 points and it shoudl've been more. The eventual All Ireland champions then beat Wexford by 6.
And what of Sligo v Kerry in 2009..
You proposal is for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. The biggest issue in the Championship is the Provincial System. Solve that and you'll solve the biggest problem. We all have our ideas on how and why but your system is not the answer.
You're having to go back fairly far for upsets. I think the championship is at least two tier already with a lot of second tier teams incapable of beating
a lot of the top tier ones.0 -
You're having to go back fairly far for upsets. I think the championship is at least two tier already with a lot of second tier teams incapable of beating
a lot of the top tier ones.
They're the noticeable ones off the top of my head. There's others and there have been other close calls as well.
All of which would be done away with under your system.
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As regards the above proposal that that gives us 2 group stages? Madness. We'd be bored senseless by the middle of the group stage.
Also by having the bottom 2 of each group go through you're essentially rewarding failure to bottom teams knowing that they'll be in another competition regardless. In that system it should be the third place only team that goes into the second tier competition!0 -
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Upsets aren't supposed to be a regular occurrence- otherwise they wouldn't be called upsets! I get that you're saying the lack of upsets illustrates the gulf between the good and not so good teams but at least the championship format we have allows for them to happen.
Introduce a tiered structure into football and upsets will no longer be a rarity, they will become an impossibility.
The age old call for "Champions League" format; overlooks the fact the Champions League can be more than a bit dull during the group stages.0 -
Getting rid of the provincial championships would be a backwards step. Even with introducing several tiers of competition which would give all counties a shot at winning against sides of same level. keep the provincial competitions as they give sides chances against higher level counties and their history shouldn't be lost and pushed aside0
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zombieHanalei wrote: »The age old call for "Champions League" format; overlooks the fact the Champions League can be more than a bit dull during the group stages.
Yes, but the Champions League has two legs for each match. I can't imagine we would do that. If the groups are small each round is fairly important.
However, it is clear from the comments above from everyone that there is a clear division across the board and I'm sure this would be reflected in every county and club in Ireland.
The first division is those who want to keep the provincial championships versus those who want to let them go.
Those that want to keep it are again divided between restructuring them or leaving them as is and possibly restructuring the qualifier set up.
Those that want to get rid of them won't even talk about ideas on how to make them work (myself included) and then we are ourselves divided on how the structure should be if they were to be got rid of.
Personally, I think before any committee or otherwise is appointed to make a proposal on restructuring, I think that committee should be given a mandate based on a vote at congress to abolish the provincial championships or not.
This would be huge, and every GAA member should vote on this at their club and hence their county and then congress itself.0 -
In my view the provincial championships are slowly losing their appeal.
Winning the Munster football championship used to be a big deal largely because it guaranteed an automatic AI semi final in the pre qualifier days. These days the Munster Championship is not a big deal, and people are surely sick of seeing either Kerry or Cork win it year in year out. The Connacht Championships something similar. Its a nice warm up for the likes of Galway or Mayo but little more.
Only the munster hurling provincial is taken seriously. The leinster one has little or no competitive value to it and likewise is used as a warm up.
As for the Leinster football, its become a bit of a joke now with Dublin winning every year.
Would anyone really miss the provincial championships? They've lost an awful lot of their prestige in recent times.
I think a Champions League format would work well. Eight groups of 4 to start off, with New York given a premliminary match beforehand. Then last 16, QFs, Semis and so on.
The big limitation on all this of course is that its an amateur sport and most footballers give their all in the Championship. It's hard to expect them to give their all for 10 or 11 games throughout the summer if they want to go all the way. Some amount of compensation would have to come to the players, no doubt. To grow the GAA as a sport both nationally and internationally, the GAA will at some stage have to look at at least limited pay for play or professionalism.0 -
Abolishing provinces would do damage in the long run.
A member of the Limerick panel had a realistic chance of winning a Munster final medal between 2002 and 2012, and they came close on a few occasions. The odds were always against them with Kerry and Cork standing in the way but it was still a realistic and achievable target.
They had absolutely no chance whatsoever of winning the All-Ireland title by comparison.
Take away the provinces, and you dramatically reduce the pool of teams that can win a championship trophy.
Almost every year, a (small) number of Limerick's panel withdraw from the panel once their involvement in the Munster championship was ended as a qualifier run didn't have the same appeal as they knew full well it would inevitably end in defeat. I don't know enough about other counties to comment on those counties but I can't imagine this scenario was unique to Limerick.
Do we really want a championship format that only caters for the needs of the top pool of teams?
Do people really feel that B and C competitions would have any meaningful appeal to the wider public? Look at hurling, how many people can name the 10 champions of the Ring/Rackard cups since their introduction in 2005?
How much appeal would a B/C competition have to players/counties who all along have been top tier?
The problem is, there is no perfect format. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only kidding themselves. Every suggestion has its strengths and weaknesses.0 -
But Limerick will never win a Munster title so its academic. And like you said, once knocked out of Munster which is more often than not after one game, they don't even try to win qualifiers or players withdraw. How is that good for the long term development of the game in Limerick? At least in a group of four they are guaranteed 3 competitive games or 6 if it was to be played home and away. Generally the more competitive football you play, the better.
I understand the affection some counties have for provincial titles, but thats all it is, affection and nostalgia.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »But Limerick will never win a Munster title so its academic. And like you said, once knocked out of Munster which is more often than not after one game, they don't even try to win qualifiers or players withdraw. How is that good for the long term development of the game in Limerick? At least in a group of four they are guaranteed 3 competitive games or 6 if it was to be played home and away. Generally the more competitive football you play, the better.
I understand the affection some counties have for provincial titles, but thats all it is, affection and nostalgia.
Had you read my post, they had a realistic chance from 2002 to 2012 but it never came off, just because they never pulled it off does not mean it was realistic. The players believed it achievable and they aimed for it, once it didn't happen some of them pulled out of the panel. And from in those 10 years they were not "more often than not knocked out in one game", that happened 4 out of 11 times. If you're going to try and knock their record at least do your research.
I explicitly didn't comment on other counties as I said I didn't know enough about them, you can't really comment on Limerick over that time frame as you don't seem to know much about Limerick over that spell.
6 games in a boring group format for what? They would have nothing to play for, they would just be playing games for the sake of playing games. They will never win an All-Ireland, that would take a run of 5 shocking upsets. A Munster final win just takes one shock result over Cork or Kerry in a final.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »In my view the provincial championships are slowly losing their appeal.
Winning the Munster football championship used to be a big deal largely because it guaranteed an automatic AI semi final in the pre qualifier days. These days the Munster Championship is not a big deal, and people are surely sick of seeing either Kerry or Cork win it year in year out. The Connacht Championships something similar. Its a nice warm up for the likes of Galway or Mayo but little more.
Only the munster hurling provincial is taken seriously. The leinster one has little or no competitive value to it and likewise is used as a warm up.
As for the Leinster football, its become a bit of a joke now with Dublin winning every year.
Would anyone really miss the provincial championships? They've lost an awful lot of their prestige in recent times.
I think a Champions League format would work well. Eight groups of 4 to start off, with New York given a premliminary match beforehand. Then last 16, QFs, Semis and so on.
The big limitation on all this of course is that its an amateur sport and most footballers give their all in the Championship. It's hard to expect them to give their all for 10 or 11 games throughout the summer if they want to go all the way. Some amount of compensation would have to come to the players, no doubt. To grow the GAA as a sport both nationally and internationally, the GAA will at some stage have to look at at least limited pay for play or professionalism.
I don't see why professionalism would have to be a prequisite for a CL style championship.
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You also forgot about Ulster Football. As a tournament it's the dogs tittles.0 -
Arguments for keeping the provincial championship:
1. Gives more teams an opportunity of winning a trophy in a given year.
2. Historically speaking these competitions carry a lot of weight.
3. Local rivalry.
(Please add to this list as I am the first to admit I am biased in this regard - I want them to go).
Ignoring any proposals for what a new structure would entail, I think the following could be arguments for getting rid of the provincial championships:
1. Numerical equality - two teams contesting the All Ireland final would have played the same number of matches as each other.
2. More variety on who counties play every year.
3. Fixed calendar (this for me is the biggest advantage - which is obviously entirely dependent on what a new structure would be but one could assume it would allow a fixed calendar).
4. Potentially more games for every team.0 -
I think most teams in most sports never win anything. There are lots of teams that dont really have a hope of winning a medal, but the players still want to play.
Ireland are never going to win a world cup but the players\supporters get great satisfaction if they beat a bigger nation or qualify for a tournament.
We will never have a situation where every team can compete for a trophy.0 -
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The provincial championships are pointless these days.They are being preserved for the chance of a shock victory which happens at most once every 10 years.The championship structure should not be based on a potential underdog win once in a blue moon.
What I would do is leave the league as it is.
Then for championship have a first round which consists of 16 matches.The top 12 teams in the league are seeded and cannot meet each other in the opening round.Then we have a draw for the 16 ties and home advantage is decided by a coin toss.
The winners of the 16 first round matches progress to the next stage of the championship and this consists of 4 groups of 4 who play each other other once and the top 2 in each group progress to the AI quarter finals.
The advantage of this is.Real intensity in the opening round of the championship.
A big incentive to do well in the league.IMO almost every team in Ireland is capable of getting into the top 12 over a 5 year period in the league if they work hard.
It avoids the majority of the championship consisting of mismatches.There isn't a huge gap between the top 16 teams in Ireland.
No splitting the competition into division so everybody gets a chance to win the all ireland and the weaker counties aren't left behind.0 -
zombieHanalei wrote: »Had you read my post, they had a realistic chance from 2002 to 2012 but it never came off, just because they never pulled it off does not mean it was realistic. The players believed it achievable and they aimed for it, once it didn't happen some of them pulled out of the panel. And from in those 10 years they were not "more often than not knocked out in one game", that happened 4 out of 11 times. If you're going to try and knock their record at least do your research.
I explicitly didn't comment on other counties as I said I didn't know enough about them, you can't really comment on Limerick over that time frame as you don't seem to know much about Limerick over that spell.
6 games in a boring group format for what? They would have nothing to play for, they would just be playing games for the sake of playing games. They will never win an All-Ireland, that would take a run of 5 shocking upsets. A Munster final win just takes one shock result over Cork or Kerry in a final.
Fair enough. I definitely think its time they ended the seeding in the munster football championship. Like you say reaching a munster final is a highlight for Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipperary supporters and players. I think the reason for the seeding was financial if I remember correctly. For the neutral its good to see a Cork-Kerry munster final, but for the other teams in munster not so much.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »Fair enough. I definitely think its time they ended the seeding in the munster football championship. Like you say reaching a munster final is a highlight for Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipperary supporters and players. I think the reason for the seeding was financial if I remember correctly. For the neutral its good to see a Cork-Kerry munster final, but for the other teams in munster not so much.
For the neutral a Cork-Kerry final is the last thing we want to see.
The seedings were only bright back in for this year's championship.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »In my view the provincial championships are slowly losing their appeal.
Winning the Munster football championship used to be a big deal largely because it guaranteed an automatic AI semi final in the pre qualifier days. These days the Munster Championship is not a big deal, and people are surely sick of seeing either Kerry or Cork win it year in year out. The Connacht Championships something similar. Its a nice warm up for the likes of Galway or Mayo but little more.
Only the munster hurling provincial is taken seriously. The leinster one has little or no competitive value to it and likewise is used as a warm up.
As for the Leinster football, its become a bit of a joke now with Dublin winning every year.
Would anyone really miss the provincial championships? They've lost an awful lot of their prestige in recent times.
I think a Champions League format would work well. Eight groups of 4 to start off, with New York given a premliminary match beforehand. Then last 16, QFs, Semis and so on.
The big limitation on all this of course is that its an amateur sport and most footballers give their all in the Championship. It's hard to expect them to give their all for 10 or 11 games throughout the summer if they want to go all the way. Some amount of compensation would have to come to the players, no doubt. To grow the GAA as a sport both nationally and internationally, the GAA will at some stage have to look at at least limited pay for play or professionalism.
You'd need to be at least a hundred years old to remember a time when Cork and Kerry didnt dominate the Munster Championship. How is it any different now than 20/30 years ago? Other than the fact the automatic semi final is now an automatic quarter final.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »Fair enough. I definitely think its time they ended the seeding in the munster football championship. Like you say reaching a munster final is a highlight for Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipperary supporters and players. I think the reason for the seeding was financial if I remember correctly. For the neutral its good to see a Cork-Kerry munster final, but for the other teams in munster not so much.
Ah here don't get me started on that seeding debacle; it was actually Limerick who proposed the motion for seeding, and it was seconded by Cork and Waterford!
The motion gets passed and almost immediately Limerick and Waterford are nothing but bitterly critical of the decision. I still haven't got my head around that one!!0 -
CrabRevolution wrote: »You'd need to be at least a hundred years old to remember a time when Cork and Kerry didnt dominate the Munster Championship. How is it any different now than 20/30 years ago? Other than the fact the automatic semi final is now an automatic quarter final.
Well some people are a bit sick of it I'm sure. With the draw seeded you can take it as a given Cork and Kerry will be there again in July. A bit of variety with non seeding would be nice.
When you think about it, the Ulster teams have a really difficult task winning All-Irelands. First they have to come through Ulster which is the most competitive province. Then they have to go through 3 more tough games. If a team like Tyrone or Down gets knocked out early in Ulster they have a long slog through the back door.
Mayo, Dublin or Kerry don't have such a hard slog through to Quarter finals.0 -
I think its the way it should be done but if all counties were at a fairly similar level. But there are going to be an awful lot of pastings I'd fear especially in the first group stage. Also 33 teams take part in the football championship so it gets slightly awkward in terms of a champions league format.
5 in 1 group will sort this out
But for me The Championship season itself needs to be shortened because club football, the grass roots is losing out. The Donegal club championship wont start till the last week in Sept. Thats crazy
I would agree that the Provincial syatem needs to be scrapped, as the only competitive one is Ulster.
8 groups of 4, and either one group with 5, or the 2 worst teams play off for one group
5 or 6 games can be shown live each weekend for TV exposure....Fri nite, 2-3 Sat and 2-3 on Sunday. And Friday nite is fine as clubs have to deal with this regularly, and the U-21 Championships are on Wed evenings
Round of games evry 2 weeks, top 2 qualify, and knock out stages then. A second competition for the losers, where top 4 say are guaranteed to be in the top 16 seeds the following year. Everyone guaranteed 4 games0 -
zombieHanalei wrote: »Ah here don't get me started on that seeding debacle; it was actually Limerick who proposed the motion for seeding, and it was seconded by Cork and Waterford!
The motion gets passed and almost immediately Limerick and Waterford are nothing but bitterly critical of the decision. I still haven't got my head around that one!!
I remember something about a few of the lesser counties voting in favour of it alright. Strange decision.
If Cork and Kerry met in the first round in Munster in an open draw and lets say Kerry lost, it would mean entering the early rounds of the qualifiers and a longer route. The best of teams can struggle in the qualifiers.0 -
The championship doesn't need to be shortened for counties like Donegal to start and play their club championship earlier. Donegal clubs could easily work their season structure around so that the club championship starts and has several rounds played in summer months even if the county side gets to the latter stages of the All Ireland.Crash Bang Wall wrote: »5 in 1 group will sort this out
But for me The Championship season itself needs to be shortened because club football, the grass roots is losing out. The Donegal club championship wont start till the last week in Sept. Thats crazy
I would agree that the Provincial syatem needs to be scrapped, as the only competitive one is Ulster.
8 groups of 4, and either one group with 5, or the 2 worst teams play off for one group
5 or 6 games can be shown live each weekend for TV exposure....Fri nite, 2-3 Sat and 2-3 on Sunday. And Friday nite is fine as clubs have to deal with this regularly, and the U-21 Championships are on Wed evenings
Round of games evry 2 weeks, top 2 qualify, and knock out stages then. A second competition for the losers, where top 4 say are guaranteed to be in the top 16 seeds the following year. Everyone guaranteed 4 games
Inter County games are very different to Club games and have much bigger crowds going, players have more to travel etc so simply saying Clubs have to deal with Friday nights regularly therefore inter county sides should be fine on Friday nights0 -
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In many respects it's the league that's the problem, it's just a complete joke.0
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A lot of these proposals seem to be based on the idea that there's no such thing as a dual player, and also that county players have wolverine like recovery powers which will allow them to play a football match every weekend from May to August , while also training for both club and county.0
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The biggest problem currently in GAA is the disparity in resources between a county like Carlow and a county like Dublin. I don't think it would matter how the championship was restructured, there will always be this problem.
The bigger counties can attract the best coaches and backroom staff, and also have a great grassroots system with an assembly line of talent coming through.
Counties like Tipperary are always on the verge of making a breakthrough at senior level but never quite make it, probably because of lack of resources.
Ideally, the wealth of the GAA should be spread equally if possible. Do the GAA subsidise coaches in weaker counties?0 -
It is spread equally. And weaker counties are helped out. Just look at Westmeath, Laois and Carlow hurling.
There has always been a disparity. Dublin are have the highest population. We have the highest amount of clubs (I'm sure we have now; though I remember Cork having more at some stage) and we are a dual county as well. The money gets spread around.
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I know... let's split Dublin in 2...0 -
Another poster here mentioned this before but I would be interested in seeing how a shoehorning a system almost identical to the NFL conference structure into a GAA championship would work. 32 teams so New York is out while Kilkenny don't look like they ever have any intention of playing football.
Pre Season- Provincial championships replace O'Byrne cups etc.
Regular Season- 8 divisions of 4 teams each based geographically.
- 16 games each for all counties.
- Each team play the teams in their division twice, so for example the likes of Cork and Kerry, Meath and Dublin, Mayo and Galway, Armagh and Down will get to maintain rivalries. 6 games a year there.
- A further 8 games will be played by playing teams from 2 other divisions on a rotating basis.
- The final 2 games to be played against teams from the two divisions not scheduled to meet. These will be based on previous years rankings, e.g If Dublin and Kerry's divisions are not scheduled to meet and they both finished 1st last year they would meet.
- 12 teams will make the playoffs.
- The 4 division winners with the highest point totals overall will go straight through to the 1/4 finals.
- The other 4 division winners will play the 4 wildcards to make the 1/4 final. The wildcards are the 4 teams with the highest teams with the highest point totals not to win their group. These matches are to be seeded with the 5th best division winners playing the lowest ranked wildcard entry.
A quick idea of the divisions would be:
Southwest:
Cork, Kerry, Limerick and Clare
South:
Wexford, Waterford, Tipperary, London
South Midlands:
Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Carlow
East:
Wicklow, Dublin, Meath, Louth
North Midlands:
Longford, Cavan, Westmeath, Leitrim
North East:
Down, Antrim, Armagh, Monaghan
North West:
Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh
West:
Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon
Overall it would be an ambitious plan and the idea of taking a structure from another sport is a bit questionable but I believe it could work.
Advantages would include loads of competitive inter-county football, a fixed calender and the maintaining of local rivalries. Television friendly too.
Disadvantages are that some games may still be massively one sided. Some counties like Kildare and Louth do not have stadiums capable of playing big games in.0 -
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There's too many games in that scenario and kinda confusing for those not used to the concept.0
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Given the number of challenge matches, College games, O'Byrne cup games and league matches played as it stands expecting players to play roughly 20 intercounty games a season is not too much to ask.
One thing that will have to end is players playing for both college and county. They should have to make a decision before the year starts. I would also propose scrapping under 21 level football at inter-county level. Also I would propose teams having to register a panel of roughly 30 players eligible to play at the start of the year with maybe a review week where 3 changes can be made to the panel midseason. Squad numbers could then be introduced.0 -
Top players miss most of Spring competitions and half the league. They'd play 10 games for the county a year at most which is still a huge ask. The League is actually a huge testing ground for most counties to try new players, so some sort of spring competition would have to be retained running up to April. Maybe do away with the o'byrne cup, etc.
@FrankieLee, interesting proposals and most people wouldn't have any issue with it. Could be worth trying on a trial basis of 3 years.
There's definitely a TV market out there for more games with SKY sports, TV3 and TG4 possibly all involved.0 -
And players wouldn't be expected to play everything or shouldn't. That's what you use a squad for. I don't think players playing for both college and county should be ended. But better coordination between coaches as to how much players are stretched.Frankie Lee wrote: »Given the number of challenge matches, College games, O'Byrne cup games and league matches played as it stands expecting players to play roughly 20 intercounty games a season is not too much to ask.
One thing that will have to end is players playing for both college and county. They should have to make a decision before the year starts. I would also propose scrapping under 21 level football at inter-county level. Also I would propose teams having to register a panel of roughly 30 players eligible to play at the start of the year with maybe a review week where 3 changes can be made to the panel midseason. Squad numbers could then be introduced.
I don't think a squad of 30 should be registered with review weeks is needed.
Squad numbers don't need to be introduced. You then get into messing surrounding finance as players(GPA) could look for money as players will be closely associated with the one jersey... By not having squad numbers you don't have that issue.
What would be benefit of squad numbers?
Under 21 inter county shouldn't be scrapped as its needed as a bridge between minor and senior at inter county level.0 -
Leave it alone
They are NOT professional players but are playing for their counties and tradition.
All teams are cyclical.
It was Meath, Kerry and Galway, 97-00 Then the rise of Armagh and Tyrone, Then Mayo and Kerry, then the rise of Dublin and Donegal. In the mid 90s it was Dublin, prior to that the Northern teams and Cork. In the early 80s it was Kerry and Offaly.
Different teams will rise and fall. Stop meddling.
Saying there has been no upsets is a dis-service to Louth in the Leinster Final a few years ago or Monaghan beating the All Ireland champions in the opening championship game in 2003.
The back door is the only real change and I think it has benefited the stronger counties more than the weaker ones by giving them a second chance and it should be scrapped.
O0 -
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They are not professional players though regardless of how professional their approach is.Mr. Incognito wrote: »Leave it alone
They are professional players playing for their counties and tradition.
All teams are cyclical.
It was Meath, Kerry and Galway, 97-00 Then the rise of Armagh and Tyrone, Then Mayo and Kerry, then the rise of Dublin and Donegal. In the mid 90s it was Dublin, prior to that the Northern teams and Cork. In the early 80s it was Kerry and Offaly.
Different teams will rise and fall. Stop meddling.
Saying there has been no upsets is a dis-service to Louth in the Leinster Final a few years ago or Monaghan beating the All Ireland champions in the opening championship game in 2003.
The back door is the only real change and I think it has benefited the stronger counties more than the weaker ones by giving them a second chance and it should be scrapped.
O
The backdoor should only be scrapped if something that gives more games to sides. Yes it probably has benefited stronger counties more than weaker counties but what would you put in place instead of the qualifiers?0 -
As a Kerryman (I presume) it is understandable that you are happy with the current system but I feel there is a massive appetite for change. I know the likes of Carlow are never going to amount to much but regular competitive football is needed for all counties. At the moment the league is only a semi competitive competition with some teams preparing for the championship while others(Derry for example) are at full tilt. The current championship structure for most teams means a maximum 3 or 4 games a season which is not enough.0
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The only way to really improve the lot of the player and supporter is to have a meaningful league that runs parallel to the championship. It should have 3 tiers not four and no semis or finals. The constant stream of games will allow proper squad development in the counties that don't progress in championship. I'd keep the current championship structure but have an open draw system. The provincials could be ran as a precursor to allow teams to tune up. Start the league in march, tie in provincials in late march and then start the full championship in end of april, finishing everything in late sept /early october.
Teams will generate a following and extra revenue and have less training and more games. It will also allow new viewers with no allegiance to pick a team and follow them0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »The championship doesn't need to be shortened for counties like Donegal to start and play their club championship earlier. Donegal clubs could easily work their season structure around so that the club championship starts and has several rounds played in summer months even if the county side gets to the latter stages of the All Ireland.
Inter County games are very different to Club games and have much bigger crowds going, players have more to travel etc so simply saying Clubs have to deal with Friday nights regularly therefore inter county sides should be fine on Friday nights
I also mentioned the fact that Under 21 Championship in both football and hurling is played on Wed nights.
Law of averages means that a team may only have to play 1 or 2 Friday nights, while if you want to win an U-21 Provincial title, there 3-4 Wednesdays are required.
Obviously common sense re travelling time would need to be factored in here0 -
Thanks to the OP for opening up a very interesting discussion.
I feel that while the intentions are good, the proposal has the appearance of providing a GAA competition which mirrors the Premiership/Champion's League in terms of layout, resulting in most games being televised on a pay-per-view basis and with possible financial remuneration of successful teams/players.
This runs contrary to many aspects of the GAA, where the club championship is (or should be) the basis of the organisation and where the players are amateur. Also, our population base would not allow recuperation of the cost associated with cameras at each game.
It is true that up to this weekend, the 2014 championship has been low on shock value, and it appears that at present, a small number of teams have moved a step ahead of the chasing pack. However, the pack will make up this ground and teams which are dominant at the moment will regress. This is the nature of GAA. Cavan, Tipperary and Roscommon are 3 teams who would hope for certain progression in the next 5-10 years.
I'm also a fan of the provincial championships, even if they are flawed. There is huge attraction in a local derby and much more satisfaction to be taken from beating a near neighbour than a team from the other end of the country (all other things being equal).
On the other hand, there are teams like Carlow and Waterford, for example, whose standards are significantly lower than the main pack and who find it extremely difficult to compete each year. These are the teams who regularly receive large beatings and it must be extremely difficult to motivate these teams for the championship. The Tommy Murphy cup was introduced in 2004 for these weaker counties but it only lasted 5 years. Perhaps something similar needs to be tried, but instead of entry to the Murphy cup being a consolation prize after losing a provincial game, the 8 weakest counties (perhaps determined by league ranking or some other ranking system) start their championship here, with the winner getting a place into the latter stages of the All-Ireland championship.
I think the championship structure should be left alone, but that the bottom teams do need a helping hand to get interest back into their championship campaigns. Perhaps a system of secondment of resources (and I mean coaching staff, organisation of underage structures moreso than handing over a wad of cash) from the upper to the lower counties would be beneficial in maintaining the interest in the lower-level counties.0 -
Frankie Lee wrote: »As a Kerryman (I presume) it is understandable that you are happy with the current system but I feel there is a massive appetite for change. I know the likes of Carlow are never going to amount to much but regular competitive football is needed for all counties. At the moment the league is only a semi competitive competition with some teams preparing for the championship while others(Derry for example) are at full tilt. The current championship structure for most teams means a maximum 3 or 4 games a season which is not enough.
I am not happy with the current system.
It is the current system that has led to creeping professionalism as the big football teams know they are safe to August even if they lose.
If the back door system was removed the All Ireland champions would have been considerably different as a lot of teams have won it through the back door. Cork would certainly have more All Irelands for example as they have beaten Kerry in Munster twice only to be dumped out by Kerry in a semi and final by them subsequently
I think that it's been a failure for football but a success for revenue and commercial streams for the GAA
I would put the football first.0 -
Football fans are not interested in tiered championship structures like the hurling equivalents Christy Ring/Nicky Rakard/Lory Meagher etc.
Any restructure peddling that idea is doomed to failure and would be rejected.0 -
I am generally in favour of an overhaul of the football championships and I think most people on here would agree that some sort of change is necessary. I think it should be in conjunction with the leagues also which I would like to see run during the summer.
Here is what I would propose:
- Change league structure to 3 tiers instead of 4: 10 teams in div 1 & 2 and 12 in div 3.
- Run leagues concurrently with the championship, i.e. league runs from March to August perhaps with designated championship, league and club weekends. Take away the league semis and finals and just run winners and promotion by final league standings
- Championship starts earlier in the year, April perhaps and run till September. Also run a Tommy Murphy style competition for teams knocked out of the championship early to be played on championship weekends
I think there would be a number of benefits to what I have outlined above despite there being no changes proposed to the actual championship format other than bringing back the Tommy Murphy Cup. Benefits I think include:
- Designated club weekends should help the grassroots I would hope.
- Teams have more to play for during the summer. E.g. if knocked out of provincial championship early you would still have most of your league campaign and potentially a qualifier/Tommy Murphy run to look forward to so hopefully teams would take all seriously
- Teams get more games during the summer months no more training really hard only to be knocked out early and have all summer off
in the long term I would advocate more dramatic changes, eg. get rid of provincials, establish divisional teams or some sort of an inter-county transfer market but for now I think any gradual change such as this would be beneficial0 -
That wouldn't be bad and allows clubs get games as well. Would teams really have less training??The only way to really improve the lot of the player and supporter is to have a meaningful league that runs parallel to the championship. It should have 3 tiers not four and no semis or finals. The constant stream of games will allow proper squad development in the counties that don't progress in championship. I'd keep the current championship structure but have an open draw system. The provincials could be ran as a precursor to allow teams to tune up. Start the league in march, tie in provincials in late march and then start the full championship in end of april, finishing everything in late sept /early october.
Teams will generate a following and extra revenue and have less training and more games. It will also allow new viewers with no allegiance to pick a team and follow them
Why would these changes lead to more ppv tv coverage? Doesn't have to be tv coverage at every game and any changes like this wouldn't change the fact the club championships are the primary base of the associationlaoisman11 wrote: »Thanks to the OP for opening up a very interesting discussion.
I feel that while the intentions are good, the proposal has the appearance of providing a GAA competition which mirrors the Premiership/Champion's League in terms of layout, resulting in most games being televised on a pay-per-view basis and with possible financial remuneration of successful teams/players.
This runs contrary to many aspects of the GAA, where the club championship is (or should be) the basis of the organisation and where the players are amateur. Also, our population base would not allow recuperation of the cost associated with cameras at each game.
It is true that up to this weekend, the 2014 championship has been low on shock value, and it appears that at present, a small number of teams have moved a step ahead of the chasing pack. However, the pack will make up this ground and teams which are dominant at the moment will regress. This is the nature of GAA. Cavan, Tipperary and Roscommon are 3 teams who would hope for certain progression in the next 5-10 years.
I'm also a fan of the provincial championships, even if they are flawed. There is huge attraction in a local derby and much more satisfaction to be taken from beating a near neighbour than a team from the other end of the country (all other things being equal).
On the other hand, there are teams like Carlow and Waterford, for example, whose standards are significantly lower than the main pack and who find it extremely difficult to compete each year. These are the teams who regularly receive large beatings and it must be extremely difficult to motivate these teams for the championship. The Tommy Murphy cup was introduced in 2004 for these weaker counties but it only lasted 5 years. Perhaps something similar needs to be tried, but instead of entry to the Murphy cup being a consolation prize after losing a provincial game, the 8 weakest counties (perhaps determined by league ranking or some other ranking system) start their championship here, with the winner getting a place into the latter stages of the All-Ireland championship.
I think the championship structure should be left alone, but that the bottom teams do need a helping hand to get interest back into their championship campaigns. Perhaps a system of secondment of resources (and I mean coaching staff, organisation of underage structures moreso than handing over a wad of cash) from the upper to the lower counties would be beneficial in maintaining the interest in the lower-level counties.
The back door system has not been a failure for football. In some cases the all Ireland champions would have been different but it wouldn't be better if back door was removed. Going back to straight knock out is bad for football. The primary competitions for the counties shouldn't be just straight knock out.Mr. Incognito wrote: »I am not happy with the current system.
It is the current system that has led to creeping professionalism as the big football teams know they are safe to August even if they lose.
If the back door system was removed the All Ireland champions would have been considerably different as a lot of teams have won it through the back door. Cork would certainly have more All Irelands for example as they have beaten Kerry in Munster twice only to be dumped out by Kerry in a semi and final by them subsequently
I think that it's been a failure for football but a success for revenue and commercial streams for the GAA
I would put the football first.0 -
Football fans are not interested in tiered championship structures like the hurling equivalents Christy Ring/Nicky Rakard/Lory Meagher etc.
Any restructure peddling that idea is doomed to failure and would be rejected.
Which is rather odd, as all of these counties have Senior, Intermediate and Junior grades for their clubs!!0 -
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