Cross Country review

youngrun

Is that a new motion ?

RayCun

youngrun wrote: »

Is that a new motion ?

amending the motions that swap the Inter Clubs and Inter Counties

youngrun

Hmmm, and what about the November race??!

RayCun

youngrun wrote: »

Hmmm, and what about the November race??!

A November race will always be 3/4 weeks out from the national marathon championship, which attracts an overlapping group of runners. And the county level senior race has to be even closer to the marathon - Dublin is usually a week after the marathon.

If the Short Course proposal is passed it might go in November? Would suit all the middle distance runners who can't hack real cross country want to prepare for indoors

youngrun

November race= Euro cross trial usually. . Dont have the documentation yet so need to have a read when I do !

Sacksian

How are the teams for European XC normally selected? Will what used to be the Gerry Farnan XC now become the basis for selecting European XC?

And then the combined interclubs/intercounties in Feb becomes the selection race for World XC (if AI decides to put a team in for it)?

I'd like to see the short course on the same day/weekend as the long course race - it sort of precludes the same person from winning both but you could get a real festival of athletics feel with two high profile / competitive races the same day/weekend.

Otherwise, it just becomes another race in the calendar (with probably the same people contesting it) and I'm not sure it solves the problems they're trying to address - falling numbers, low spectator numbers, etc.

Sacksian

I noticed earlier in the week that neither AI nor the Dublin Athletics Event Calendar have a date listed for the Gerry Farnan this year - wonder what's happening to that? It was called the Athletics Ireland Autumn Open Cross Country race last year.

RayCun

youngrun wrote: »

November race= Euro cross trial usually. . Dont have the documentation yet so need to have a read when I do !

yes, would need to be a different race for the trial

I don't know what the story is with the Gerry Farnan. I presume the name change last year meant MSB were no longer running it?

youngrun

RayCun wrote: »

yes, would need to be a different race for the trial

I don't know what the story is with the Gerry Farnan. I presume the name change last year meant MSB were no longer running it?

Looks like amending original motions then ? To one National champs in Feb and presumably Euro trial in Nov ? Plus a short course .

Gerry farnan now Athletics Ireland open cross country ! MSB out but know no more than that . Assume on in Oct as its the Masters trials also

RayCun

The Inter County race was a de facto selection race, but even if it isn't on in November there doesn't have to be a new November race to replace it. Any of the existing autumn races could become the selection race - maybe the not-Gerry-Farnan, maybe something else. (Or a trials race added before another race?)
The motions specify which races AAI should run, not what the selectors should use to pick teams.

youngrun

I might propose the Connacht cross country as euro trials and ensure its in a hard to find venue...?! . Would have to retain a November trial or national equivalent race I expect. Not much of a season if only one senior level race in Feb? ?

RayCun

youngrun wrote: »

I might propose the Connacht cross country as euro trials and ensure its in a hard to find venue...?! . Would have to retain a November trial or national equivalent race I expect. Not much of a season if only one senior level race in Feb? ?

Are you on the national selection committee?
Why would a trial race have to be November, and not September or October?
It is a problem to only have one national senior race all right - but I guess at the moment there's only one national senior race that anyone runs in Combine the clubs and counties and you should increase the participation level

youngrun

I wish !
November perfect timing a month out, too early otherwise?
Talk at the XC review meeting was that HP and top athletes wanted decent competition and races in a shortened season, so hopefully that will happen .

RayCun

youngrun wrote: »

top athletes wanted decent competition and races in a shortened season

those two are hard to combine. The novice and intermediate races, at county and province level, take up a lot of time. But the top athletes aren't eligible for those, they can only run senior and open races.

Maybe open races alongside the novice/intermediate/masters races? Would there be enough participants to make them worthwhile?

RayCun

AGM was today...


RECOMMENDATIONS

1. That: the National Cross Country season be completed by mid February
passed

2. That: the National “B” Cross Country Championships be continued with the scheduling of this event brought forward.
passed

MOTIONS

1. That: the National Cross Country Championships start at the under 12 age group, with the under 11 athletes being allowed to move up an age group
defeated

2. That: the juvenile age groups for National Cross Country Championships be completed at the under 18 age group.
passed

3. That: the National Inter Club Cross Country Championships for Junior and Senior be held pre Christmas.
passed

4. That: the distance for Senior Men National Inter Club Cross Country Championship be 10,000m.
passed

5. That: the National Inter County Cross Country Championship for Junior and Senior be held post Christmas.
passed

6. That: a National Short Course Cross Country 4K Championships be reintroduced.
passed

7. That: a new National Cross Country Club League competition be introduced using already existing events;
Senior Club, Novice Club, Intermediate Club and Master Club.
passed

Dublin amendment to combine Clubs and Counties in early Feb was ruled out of order

youngrun

Good to see a few changes. Dont think AAI had their homework done on this though a good deal of confusion. Should have had a proposed season calendar as well at meeting. Wonder when the short course will run ? Same day as Interclubs ie before the main race which is now also euro trials ? Assume its men only ? ! Intercounties should be early feb I reckon and they should make a big deal out of both the senior events , proper marketing and promotion needs to be done with XC as per indoors and other events.

RayCun

yeah, there were questions about that, but the answer was "that will be up to the fixture committee". It could end up being the same day as the intercounties? Or that weekend?

AAI did pay RTE to show the Indoor championships. I wonder if they ever discussed paying for the cross country championships to be televised?


oh, and some other things mentioned at the AGM that have come up here before -
Irish Runner was discussed in the reports, saying that they knew there had been some disquiet over celebrities going on the cover rather than athletes. But they have done research and this is partly responsible for the increase in sales of IR over the last few years, and increase in advertising revenue

finance reports also covered recreational races. The directly AAI stuff (remembrance run, a few more) is breaking even - 'breaking even' in this sense does mean a lot of money going to clubs who work at the events. The AAI-linked races (Samsung, Rock and Roll half, Grant Thornton) are a big money-spinner, six figure profits (for the races as a group). At the same time, general race licencing revenue is going down, there are more races but fewer get AAI approval

youngrun

Yes , could be held feb as well

I agree think they need to do a JTG style promotion of XC, live streaming and ideally live coverage , would be great to watch. Maybe the interclubs event could be fixed in Santry and the counties event rotated . Would need to do a bit of incentivising I think to keep the Feb event up there eg prizes, county board incentives, grand prix event bringing in Uk /Ni athlets , reducing teams needed from 6 to 4 for weaker counties etc etc

pconn062

Dublin amendment to combine Clubs and Counties in early Feb was ruled out of order

Can someone explain this to me, what does ruled out of order mean?

Glad to see the Interclubs cut down to 10k, I plan to run it next year and will be glad of that 2k less!

RayCun

pconn062 wrote: »

Can someone explain this to me, what does ruled out of order mean?

It means it wasn't put to a vote or discussed, it was ruled too substantial a change to be considered as an amendment.

I thought the amendment was a good idea, but it will be interesting to see the effects of swapping clubs and counties.

Chivito550

As somebody who views cross country from afar, I find the structure and the vast amount of "national championship" races to be immensely confusing. Who exactly is the national cross country champion? The winner of Inter clubs, the winner of inter counties, or the winner of one of the other races?

Why not have one National Cross Country Championships like with indoor, outdoor and road?

youngrun

Inter clubs winner was always seen as national champion, season finale etc etc

Things have changed though with less emphasis on world cross , lads moving to marathon early in year etc

Think there is a definite need for more than one national level senior race - hence inter clubs and inter counties exist, look at UK with multiple events and cross country challenge etc, and their European success rate. Maybe a bit better marketing structuring etc will sort it out.

RayCun

there are five national championships
- novice
- intermediate
- inter clubs
- inter counties
- masters

Novice has the shortest races, and when you win in Novice you can't compete in it again.
Intermediate distances are longer, and again, win in Intermediate and you can't compete there again
The two senior races have the longest distances.
Masters, obviously, age-determined

A problem some people have is, if you're 25 years old, and have medalled in novice and intermediate, the number of races you can compete in is dramatically reduced. There are all these championship races on the calendar, but most of them are closed to you.

Personally, I think a better solution would be to combine inter clubs and intercounties in February, but add open races to the calendar.

pconn062

RayCun wrote: »

there are five national championships
- novice
- intermediate
- inter clubs
- inter counties
- masters

Novice has the shortest races, and when you win in Novice you can't compete in it again.
Intermediate distances are longer, and again, win in Intermediate and you can't compete there again
The two senior races have the longest distances.
Masters, obviously, age-determined

A problem some people have is, if you're 25 years old, and have medalled in novice and intermediate, the number of races you can compete in is dramatically reduced. There are all these championship races on the calendar, but most of them are closed to you.

Personally, I think a better solution would be to combine inter clubs and intercounties in February, but add open races to the calendar.

Agree with this part. Maybe make a league with some of the open races, Star of the Sea, Gerry Farnan (or whatever it is), Rás na hEireann.

Chivito550

Would a league system not work better. Have a look at the XCR winter series Athletics Victoria put on. 10 races in total, 3 of them being relays (XC and Road), with the other 7 races split between road and XCR. The focus is on club performances in the standings, with numerous divisions. Something like 7-8 divisions for men, 4-5 for women, and then divisions for junior and master age categories. It's all about scoring points for the club. Clubs can enter as many teams as they wish. Maybe something similar could work, and if you wanted to keep road and XC separate then maybe 5 XC series races including 2 relays.

I'm not very involved in that scene, but was always very impressed with how they structured their winter leagues in Victoria.

EDIT: Info here http://athsvic.org.au/events/competitions/avcompetitions/xcr/

Detailed handbook: http://athsvic.org.au/wp-content/uploads/AV_XCRHandbook2015_WEB.pdf

A much cleaner and neatly structured competition than the confusion here.

RayCun

a club league was one of the motions agreed at the AGM. Points based on club performance in the 5 national races

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

a club league was one of the motions agreed at the AGM. Points based on club performance in the 5 national races

Any cross country relays in there?

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Any cross country relays in there?

no, a relay and short course were both proposed as additions to the calendar. People at the review meeting felt that there could be a poor turn-out in relays, and it would be a bad idea to add both short course and a relay

youngrun

RayCun wrote: »

a club league was one of the motions agreed at the AGM. Points based on club performance in the 5 national races

Think league excludes intercounties , but anyway its a good idea, especially to get a range of members across the clubs out and competing, there is room for any half decent or improving club runner in one of the events listed . Just needs to be pretty clearly structured and maybe a few incentives thrown in.
TV coverage or live stream a definite need. Intercounties needs a proper divisonal structure as well and a bit of razzmatazz to keep its profile and make it a decent season finale..

KielyUnusual

Love the idea of a short course and I think this will attract a lot of different runners to XC. The same I think for the Relays if they ever take this on. From speaking to a couple of the European lads at the club, it seems quite common on the continent to have shorter XC courses and all the middle distance guys seem to run these.

There is a huge disparity between the number of people that run the Novice and those that run the other events. More than one factor in this but I think the 6K distance is a massive contributor.

On a peronal note, I'm very happy that the Inter-Counties distance has been reduced to 10K. Probably would have run it anyway but its better this way . Makes sense too, now that they don't use it as a selection race for the Worlds.