[News] Luas contract renewed

markpb

The Rail Procurement Agency yesterday announced that it would be renewing the Luas operating contract with Transdev Dublin Light Rail Limited, which will continue to run the tram system in the capital for the next five years.

The RPA said that through savings made in the signing of this new contract, it will now return to operating at a surplus in 2015. [...] The 4.5pc growth in passenger trips last year has also been a key factor.

Rory O'Connor - the acting chief executive - explained that the €150m contract will cover all of the operations and maintenance of the Luas system. "We will probably take in €180m, so that's a good deal for us.

Speaking at the event, Mr Donohoe said that the success of the Luas "is evidenced by the fact that passenger numbers last year exceeded 30 million". This rise represented an increase of eight million additional passengers since 2005, when the Luas was first introduced.

independent.ie

The interesting bit for me was the comment by Transdev that some of their proposed improvements will take affect in the coming year. I wonder what they proposed.

end of the road

i wonder what savings there talking about? did anyone else bid for the contract?

AngryLips

Funnily enough, I was looking at Luas passenger numbers and the system is carrying close to the same number of people as Manchester's Metrolink even though that system is nearly three times as long and has about two or three more lines.

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

i wonder what savings there talking about? did anyone else bid for the contract?

Less trams are being run, that's where the savings are.

Several operators tendered to run the service.

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Less trams are being run, that's where the savings are.

seems daft to run less trams when usership is high? then i suppose with all the extensions there aren't enough to go round and have spairs?

n97 mini

So does this mean it will be running without any subvention at all?

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

Funnily enough, I was looking at Luas passenger numbers and the system is carrying close to the same number of people as Manchester's Metrolink even though that system is nearly three times as long and has about two or three more lines.

According to Wiki, Metrolink carries 1 million less passengers per year, while having more then twice the length of track!

Yet, it is considered a great success and is being expanded quickly!

It just goes to show the demand for high quality public transport in Dublin. Come on lets do Dart Underground and Metro North now.

BTW Dart also carries 10 million more passengers then Manchesters train services and that is excluding Irish Rail commuter services.

end of the road

[QUOTE=bk;92037768lets do Dart Underground and Metro North now.[/QUOTE]

or just merge the 2. dart underground and dart north. would allow complete connectivity and operability between the systems.

TheBandicoot

Given it is a 5year term, this means they will be running the operation when BXD opens and all that that entails, correct?

bk

end of the road wrote: »

or just merge the 2. dart underground and dart north. would allow complete connectivity and operability between the systems.

We really don't need or want that!

Luas has been proven to be far better run and far better experience then any Irish Rail service. We certainly don't want the "Irish Rail" mindset infecting Metro North.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

We really don't need or want that!

Luas has been proven to be far better run and far better experience then any Irish Rail service. We certainly don't want the "Irish Rail" mindset infecting Metro North.

then forget about metro north and have luas operate along that route instead. otherwise building it as a dart line meaning operability between systems is the right way to go. we don't need another type of rail system brought in to the mix of heavy rail and tram.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

then forget about metro north and have luas operate along that route instead. otherwise building it as a dart line meaning operability between systems is the right way to go. we don't need another type of rail system brought in to the mix of heavy rail and tram.

You know perfectly well that Metro North is just a version of Luas.

It uses the same track gauge as Luas and the carriages are just a little wider then Luas Carriages. Remember the Green Line has been designed so that it can potentially be upgraded to use Metro carriages in future.

There is zero benefit from having operability between Metro North and DART, but many, many disadvantages.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

You know perfectly well that Metro North is just a version of Luas.

It uses the same track gauge as Luas and the carriages are just a little wider then Luas Carriages. Remember the Green Line has been designed so that it can potentially be upgraded to use Metro carriages in future.

There is zero benefit from having operability between Metro North and DART, but many, many disadvantages.

integration and operability is a fantastic advantage. the only disadvantage would be irish rail. but that can be dealt with by employing management compitent to run things

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

seems daft to run less trams when usership is high? then i suppose with all the extensions there aren't enough to go round and have spairs?

The economies are made through running slightly less departures in it's off peak hours. It's almost impossible for the general public to know if trams are late or cancelled when you don't have a published timetable to work with

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

We really don't need or want that!

Luas has been proven to be far better run and far better experience then any Irish Rail service. We certainly don't want the "Irish Rail" mindset infecting Metro North.

Actually Irish Rail's mindset is very much evident in Luas. They did most of the planning and design for both network and fleet, the majority of it's specifications, some of the tendering for the original routes, most of the proposed service patterns and modelling, etc. Most of the dog work on Luas had been done by the time the Railway Procurement Agency took on the project in early 2002, by which time construction had begun.

Jamie2k9

Less trams are being run, that's where the savings are.

Its not a recent change is it?, have not noticed anyway.

The only thing that annoys me is the scheduling of trams to Connolly and The Point. They are usually scheduled 2-3 minutes apart and then there is a 5-7 minute gap with no trams. Better scheduling would really improve service quality.

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its not a recent change is it?, have not noticed anyway.

The only thing that annoys me is the scheduling of trams to Connolly and The Point. They are usually scheduled 2-3 minutes apart and then there is a 5-7 minute gap with no trams. Better scheduling would really improve service quality.

You did notice, Jamie

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You did notice, Jamie

So its not a new cut, they have being like this for a good while. I still don't see why they don't space them out more. Not going to cost them anything to do it.

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Actually Irish Rail's mindset is very much evident in Luas. They did most of the planning and design for both network and fleet, the majority of it's specifications, some of the tendering for the original routes, most of the proposed service patterns and modelling, etc. Most of the dog work on Luas had been done by the time the Railway Procurement Agency took on the project in early 2002, by which time construction had begun.

I agree, Irish Rails planners were very good and most of them I believe are now with the RPA.

It is Irish Rail management and the general attitude of general staff that I and most people have issue with.

end of the road wrote: »

integration and operability is a fantastic advantage. the only disadvantage would be irish rail. but that can be dealt with by employing management compitent to run things

You know "integration" and "operability" sound great, but they are just buzz words with little real meaning in this context.

Even if MN was gauged for the Irish standard, existing DARTs wouldn't be used on it anyway. With DU, increased frequency and electrification of the other lines, there certainly wouldn't be enough existing DARTs to operate MN as well, so either way you would have to buy new carriages for MN either way. And in fact heavy rail DART carriages would likely cost more then light rail Metro carriages.

Also all the existing finalised plans that cost I believe in the region of 100 million would have to be thrown out and new plans drawn up to support heavy rail which in turn would require new planning permission, thus delaying the project by years more.

Also a heavily rail Metro would like cost a lot more then a light rail Metro (wider tracks, wider tunnels, wider stations, more complicated signalling system, etc.).

All of this hassle and really for what benefit?!!

The reality is Metro North will be "integrated" and "operability" with LUAS.

- It is being designed by the same people who desgined LUAS.
- It will be run by the same people at the RPA who run LUAS
- It is likely to be operated by Transdev or whoever has the contract to operate the Luas at the time.
- It is likely Luas drivers will be able to drive MN trains with a minimum of training.
- It is likely that the same control center that looks after LUAS with also look after MN
- It is likely the same depots, mechanics, maintenance staff, cleaning staff, security staff, etc. will be used between Luas and MN
- It is likely that the same tickets and ticket machines will be used on both, with MN just being another "Luas" line that operates within the same zonal ticketing system as Luas.

There really isn't any "third network" here, MN is just a brand name for a Luas line that happens to run partly underground.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

It is Irish Rail management and the general attitude of general staff that I and most people have issue with.

what have the general staff done. i've always found any of them who i have had dealings with to be helpful. like any large organization there will be some who shouldn't be there but they are not the majority.

bk wrote: »

You know "integration" and "operability" sound great, but they are just buzz words

not buzz words but very important words. if they don't happen then its because whoever is in charge won't make it happen. like busses and rail integrating with each other which should be happening and should have happened the minute the lot was nationalised.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

what have the general staff done. i've always found any of them who i have had dealings with to be helpful. like any large organization there will be some who shouldn't be there but they are not the majority.

Come off it, the recent strikes just two weeks ago!

Irish Rail staff have been going on strike for years! The problems down in Cork for instance.

Irish Rail not operating early morning or late night services like Luas does.

Irish Rail putting on very short carriages and the generally bad frequency of services.

Irish Rail is there to please staff, not for customers. I and I would say the majority of the public wouldn't want Irish Rail anywhere near Metro North.

In fact I'm pretty certain many people would like to see the running of DART and Dublin Commuter services also handed over to RPA/Transdev.

end of the road wrote: »

not buzz words but very important words. if they don't happen then its because whoever is in charge won't make it happen. like busses and rail integrating with each other which should be happening and should have happened the minute the lot was nationalised.

I've offered you a full list of ways that Metro North will be highly integrated with the Luas.

You haven't offered a single way that we would benefit from Metro North being part of the DART network.

Nor have you dealt with any of the points of doing so requiring dumping the existing finalised plans and planning permission, delays to the project or the extra cost of going heavy rail.

So yes, so far you have only offered buzz words with no substance.

monument

bk wrote: »

You know perfectly well that Metro North is just a version of Luas.

It uses the same track gauge as Luas and the carriages are just a little wider then Luas Carriages. Remember the Green Line has been designed so that it can potentially be upgraded to use Metro carriages in future.

There is zero benefit from having operability between Metro North and DART, but many, many disadvantages.

Metro North carriages ended up as being planned the same width as Luas.

carlmango11

end of the road wrote: »

what have the general staff done. i've always found any of them who i have had dealings with to be helpful. like any large organization there will be some who shouldn't be there but they are not the majority.

I have the feeling you've never had to rely on Irish Rail before.

smellmepower

What will they do with the 30m predicted surplus?

carlmango11

bk wrote: »

Come off it, the recent strikes just two weeks ago!

Irish Rail staff have been going on strike for years! The problems down in Cork for instance.

Irish Rail not operating early morning or late night services like Luas does.

Irish Rail putting on very short carriages and the generally bad frequency of services.

Irish Rail is there to please staff, not for customers. I and I would say the majority of the public wouldn't want Irish Rail anywhere near Metro North.

In fact I'm pretty certain many people would like to see the running of DART and Dublin Commuter services also handed over to RPA/Transdev.

Not to mention:

• The state of the stations
• The very often either incorrect or non-existant upcoming stop information on DARTs
• The lack of information in stations
• The lack of a proper map on board DART/Commuter Rail trains showing proper connection information for other modes of transit
• The lack of announcements when you're onboard a DART that has decided to stop between stations for anywhere from 1-10 minutes

If Irish Rail or Dublin Bus are given control of any new transport projects then Dublin deserves what it gets. I'll just give up caring.

bk

monument wrote: »

Metro North carriages ended up as being planned the same width as Luas.

So basically, Metro North is Luas, just a different brand name for the project.

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

According to Wiki, Metrolink carries 1 million less passengers per year, while having more then twice the length of track!

Yet, it is considered a great success and is being expanded quickly!

It just goes to show the demand for high quality public transport in Dublin. Come on lets do Dart Underground and Metro North now.

BTW Dart also carries 10 million more passengers then Manchesters train services and that is excluding Irish Rail commuter services.

Yet somehow Luas, with better passenger numbers and less infrastructure to service, the article in the opening post implied that Luas made an operating loss last year - WTF?

n97 mini

smellmepower wrote: »

What will they do with the 30m predicted surplus?

Gift it to Irish Rail as part of the subvention?

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Come off it, the recent strikes just two weeks ago!

Irish Rail staff have been going on strike for years! The problems down in Cork for instance.

strikes are not that often at all with irish rail. i can't even remember the last strike previous to the 1 a week/2 weeks ago. either way staff go on strike in many industries from time to time. to strike is a fundamental right in my opinion.

bk wrote: »

Irish Rail not operating early morning or late night services like Luas does.

Irish Rail putting on very short carriages and the generally bad frequency of services.

of course. i agree with that. its ridiculous, but thats down to irish rail management.

bk wrote: »

Irish Rail is there to please staff, not for customers.

again, because of irish rail management

bk wrote: »

I and I would say the majority of the public wouldn't want Irish Rail anywhere near Metro North.

the vast majority of the public wouldn't know either way in fairness.

bk wrote: »

In fact I'm pretty certain many people would like to see the running of DART and Dublin Commuter services also handed over to RPA/Transdev.

i'm sure they would, but unless they and the government are prepared to pay for it its not going to happen. that may includ higher fairs and subsidies. personally i'm not willing to pay any more for the supposed privilage of a private company running the dart and commuter rail. and really such services are needed to help cross subsidise the rest anyway.

bk wrote: »

I've offered you a full list of ways that Metro North will be highly integrated with the Luas.

you have.

bk wrote: »

You haven't offered a single way that we would benefit from Metro North being part of the DART network.

i have. you disagree with them and thats fine. but i offered the reasons.

bk wrote: »

Nor have you dealt with any of the points of doing so requiring dumping the existing finalised plans and planning permission, delays to the project or the extra cost of going heavy rail.

i gave you reasons why in my opinion integrating it with the dart would be a good idea. and you have disagreed. thats fine. if its to be integrated with luas then really the stock used should be able to run on the red line as well.

bk wrote: »

So yes, so far you have only offered buzz words with no substance.

very important words which a certain transport company needs to learn.

end of the road

carlmango11 wrote: »

I have the feeling you've never had to rely on Irish Rail before.

no your rightshur ru the train service between rosslare and dublin not irish rail

end of the road

carlmango11 wrote: »

Not to mention:

The state of the stations
The very often either incorrect or non-existant upcoming stop information on DARTs
The lack of information in stations
The lack of a proper map on board DART/Commuter Rail trains showing proper connection information for other modes of transit
The lack of announcements when you're onboard a DART that has decided to stop between stations for anywhere from 1-10 minutes

the fault of those in charge for not making sure all this stuff happens.

markpb

smellmepower wrote: »

What will they do with the 30m predicted surplus?

It's a predicted 30m over 5 years, not all in one year. I guess they'll a) hope it materializes, b) use it to build up a surplus in case of future deficits and c) use it for future maintenance work like mid-life refits of the trams, upgrades of safety systems, etc.

end of the road wrote: »

the fault of those in charge for not making sure all this stuff happens.

Exactly. Transdev make that stuff happen, Irish Rail do not. That's why Luas has a good reputation but Dart does not. Whether that's down to the staff or management is irrelevant.

end of the road

[QUOTE=markpb;92043578Luas has a good reputation but Dart does not.[/QUOTE]

really? dart is a good service which is well used. there is room for improvement but with good management that will happen.

markpb wrote: »

Whether that's down to the staff or management is irrelevant.

its down to management, which is very relevant. they make the decisians and have the final say.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Yet somehow Luas, with better passenger numbers and less infrastructure to service, the article in the opening post implied that Luas made an operating loss last year - WTF?

For the record, LUAS has been running operational deficits every year since 2011.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

For the record, LUAS has been running operational deficits every year since 2011.

Which has been paid for by their cash reserves?

For balance: Only because the infrastructure cost was effectly written off for Luas / the RPA. Unlike poor Irish Rail who had pay back costs of Dart etc.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Which has been paid for by their cash reserves?

For balance: Only because the infrastructure cost was effectly written off for Luas / the RPA. Unlike poor Irish Rail who had pay back costs of Dart etc.

I was making a statement of fact that's all - the poster seemed surprised, and I was putting context around it.

Given the downturn it's hardly surprising.

n97 mini

carlmango11 wrote: »

[*]The lack of information in stations

This does my head in. All stations along the Maynooth line have a nice big display boards made mostly of stainless steel for displaying timetables -- except they're all empty and have been for the last 2 or 3 years.

cgcsb

markpb wrote: »

Exactly. Transdev make that stuff happen, Irish Rail do not. That's why Luas has a good reputation but Dart does not. Whether that's down to the staff or management is irrelevant.

Does DART have a bad reputation???
I know it's horrifically infrequent for an urban rail system, but I wouldn't say it's particularly disliked as a mode.

Kermit.de.frog

The operators as a first priority need to sort out the hopeless security problems on the red line. A lot of people will not use the so called "junkie train".

Cool Mo D

cgcsb wrote: »

Does DART have a bad reputation???
I know it's horrifically infrequent for an urban rail system, but I wouldn't say it's particularly disliked as a mode.

I don't think it has a "bad" reputation exactly, but it doesn't have a particularly good reputation either. It's slow, often late, often infrequent, with non-working passenger information displays on the inside. Ridership has also dropped quite a bit compared with 10 years ago.

Vic_08

cgcsb wrote: »

Does DART have a bad reputation???
I know it's horrifically infrequent for an urban rail system, but I wouldn't say it's particularly disliked as a mode.

DART is a suburban line not an urban one and I wouldn't say 4tph off peak is anything close to horrifically infrequent for that, I can think of plenty of similar lines in other places with 15min headways.


As for all the moaning about strikes, anyone care to take a stab at how many days have been disrupted to industrial action in the last 10 years? And as for this idea that IE are alone in having industrial action, there are a number of privatised railways in the UK that have had more strikes than IE not to mention that Deutsche Bahn have been hit with strikes in the last week.

devnull

Passenger information displays not working are a problem, but it's one that seems to be pretty commonplace on the Japanese built Darts, but the Siemens installed PIS on the 8100 class seems to be a hell of a lot more reliable as well as having vastly better quality displays.

It's rare for me to see the 8100 class have a problem with passenger information but on the 8500 class it's pretty rare to see the displays working.

end of the road

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Ridership has also dropped quite a bit compared with 10 years ago.

but in fairness thats surely due to the economic downturn?

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Passenger information displays not working are a problem, but it's one that seems to be pretty commonplace on the Japanese built Darts, but the Siemens installed PIS on the 8100 class seems to be a hell of a lot more reliable as well as having vastly better quality displays.

It's rare for me to see the 8100 class have a problem with passenger information but on the 8500 class it's pretty rare to see the displays working.

the 8500s are junk anyway IMO. the original 8100s are the best of the lot

carlmango11

end of the road wrote: »

the fault of those in charge for not making sure all this stuff happens.

end of the road wrote: »

its down to management, which is very relevant. they make the decisians and have the final say.

You seem to be excusing the company because it's often managerial decisions that cause issues. What difference does it make?

That's like saying Nestlé isn't a bad company because it's just the management that decide to do evil things. Your logic makes no sense.

Vic_08 wrote: »

As for all the moaning about strikes, anyone care to take a stab at how many days have been disrupted to industrial action in the last 10 years? And as for this idea that IE are alone in having industrial action, there are a number of privatised railways in the UK that have had more strikes than IE not to mention that Deutsche Bahn have been hit with strikes in the last week.

I doubt private companies would strike for the same minor reasons Irish Rail/Dublin Bus do. The entire culture of these companies is not based around the customer. The attitude I get from these staff is that they're almost doing the passengers a favour and if they don't like it, tough sh*t because there's no alternative.

Deutsche Bahn isn't even comparable. DB provide an incredible service. If Irish Rail provided a service even remotely as good as DB I'd imagine people would be a lot more supportive of their strikes.

Losty Dublin

carlmango11 wrote: »

Deutsche Bahn isn't even comparable. DB provide an incredible service. If Irish Rail provided a service even remotely as good as DB I'd imagine people would be a lot more supportive of their strikes.

Of course, if the Irish government invested in public transport like the German Government did.....

AngryLips

Vic_08 wrote: »

DART is a suburban line not an urban one and I wouldn't say 4tph off peak is anything close to horrifically infrequent for that, I can think of plenty of similar lines in other places with 15min headways

Is this a myth or does the 15min headway thing not apply to Sundays? I've always found myself standing at dart stations for 20mins+

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Is this a myth or does the 15min headway thing not apply to Sundays? I've always found myself standing at dart stations for 20mins+

The Sunday timetable was not recast when the weekday schedules were.


The basic frequency on DART on Sundays is 20 minutes.

end of the road

carlmango11 wrote: »

You seem to be excusing the company because it's often managerial decisions that cause issues. What difference does it make?

it makes a very huge difference. the management manage the company. if something isn't being done that should its up to management to notice it and implement it.

carlmango11 wrote: »

That's like saying Nestlé isn't a bad company because it's just the management that decide to do evil things.

its like nothing of the sort

carlmango11 wrote: »

Your logic makes no sense.

yes it does

carlmango11 wrote: »

I doubt private companies would strike for the same minor reasons Irish Rail/Dublin Bus do.

dublin bus irish rail and bus eireann don't strike for minor reasons. if they strike its because of a genuine reason and as a last resort. very same with the UK private companies

carlmango11 wrote: »

The entire culture of these companies is not based around the customer. The attitude I get from these staff is that they're almost doing the passengers a favour and if they don't like it, tough sh*t because there's no alternative.

you get a bus or train. buy ticket, get on, get off again at destination. what else do you want. the staff to give each passenger a hug as they get on and off?

carlmango11 wrote: »

Deutsche Bahn isn't even comparable. DB provide an incredible service.

i'm sure they do. but it is relevant.

carlmango11 wrote: »

If Irish Rail provided a service even remotely as good as DB I'd imagine people would be a lot more supportive of their strikes.

really? in this country? yeah right. those who don't have sympathy for strikers won't no matter what. nothing to do with the service provided.

irishgeo

I wonder does the new contract come with any clauses on security on the luas. I'd say ireland needs a transport police. But we have enough problems trying to keep the normal garda numbers up. The traffic core launched in fanfare a few years back is a shadow of itself that I rarely see any cars on the road.

devnull

Just having traffic police isn't going to solve the problem if they don't apply the laws in a no tolerance fashion unlike at the moment.

Too many times I see traffic offences, the Garda goes up and tells the person driving not to do it again, he goes further up the road and does the same thing.

The only way it will work even with police is if that people are pulled over more often, have some more action than just telling them not to do it again and making the fine big enough so it's not worth there while.