Schools called to accommodate Isalamic beliefs

masonchat

Schools funded by the government should have no religious ethos,

masonchat

I believe everyone has the right to live as they see fit but you cant pander to 6 different religions in a school and neither should we have to so the only way to provide reasonable equality is to leave all religion at the school gate

mphalo1

if they dont like the way our schools are there's the door see yis later go home to your own country and dont come back EVER!

TheQuietFella

Tell these guys to get back to their own country if they have issues.
What brought them here in the first place!

Nodin

masonchat wrote: »

Schools funded by the government should have no religious ethos,

But they do.

masonchat wrote: »

we got so caught up with minoirity groups rights pandering to every whim afraid to say this and afraid to say that so we dont offend anyone ( this comment has nothing to do with schools or religion),

What has it to do with?

masonchat wrote: »

it is now the majority groups who get shat all over (neither has this one )

How? Examples please.

mphalo1 wrote:

if they dont like the way our schools are there's the door see yis later go home
to your own country and dont come back EVER!

TheQuietFella wrote:

Tell these guys to get back to their own country if they have issues.

This is their country.

lazygal

mphalo1 wrote: »

if they dont like the way our schools are there's the door see yis later go home to your own country and dont come back EVER!

I'm Irish and there's many things I don't like about our schools. Where should I go back to?

mphalo1

Nodin wrote:

This is their country.

whatever you think yourself we still won't be changing though you'll see.

masonchat

Nodin wrote: »

But they do. Well they shouldnt maybe its time for a change , they sure use to , they use to be catholic schools because we were a catholic country maybe we shouldnt have pandered to the religions that came into the country i am not pro catholic but im certainly not for being told what my country should or shouldnt do no body asked anyone to come here, but my preference would be no religion in school then no one has anything to complain about


What has it to do with? life in general we seem to be far to accommodating in this country often at our own expense, you dont have to agree with it , its my opinion you are entitled to yours

How? Examples please. if i answered this we would just end up going totally off topic and rowing , so i wont , its my opinion again you need not agree





This is their country.

its whos country

Nodin

mphalo1 wrote: »

whatever you think yourself we still won't be changing though you'll see.

What "we" is this?

masonchat wrote:

its whos country.

If they are Irish citizens, its their country too.

I note you can't back up your other nonsense.

Turtwig

Mod: I'm closing this for now - thread has become, pardon the pun, right on the borderline. May re-open again later.

Dades

Going to reopen the thread once a few ground rules are adhered too...

The following responses (and variants of same) will be deleted and the poster may be moderated:

- "Feck off back to yer own country!"
- "Why should we pander to [insert extreme generalisation]?"
- "Ireland is a catholic country because I prefer it that way!"

It's okay to be outraged. It's not okay to respond with silly hyperbole and xenophobia.

endacl

The simple solution is stil staring us in the face. Secular education in a secular country. France does it. People grumble about it, but it works. I respect people's right to grumble!

Kiwi in IE

wrt40 wrote: »

But letting them have a prayer room or to up and leave the class to do prayers is a step too far. What about all the other religions, do they get their prayer time too? at what point do you stop? Should we have a sacrificial alter and stop for 15 mins every day to slaughter a lamb?

Why is it a step too far? Other religions (mainly Catholcism and to a much lesser extent Protestant denominations) do have prayer time and buildings provided for the purposes of praying (attached churches) in state funded schools already. Why should Muslims and all other religions not have the same?

At what point do you stop? Stop at secular schools which accommodate everyone equally.

I am delighted that other religions are started to demand that they recieve the same treatment as Catholicism. Why should they not? Why are Catholics given special privilege to the detriment of every other citizen who is of another, or no religion.

mphalo1

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I am delighted that other religions are started to demand that they recieve the same treatment as Catholicism. Why should they not? Why are Catholics given special privilege to the detriment of every other citizen who is of another, or no religion.

would they do it for us I doubt it

coolbeans

mphalo1 wrote: »

would they do it for us I doubt it

That's not an argument. Who are they and us anyway? Think about what you're saying before you type and throw in a bit of punctuation while you're at it. It shows that you've actually considered what you've said.

Delirium

mphalo1 wrote: »

would they do it for us I doubt it

That's not a very appealing idea of how to do things, "well if the shoe was on the other foot, they'd treat us badly. So lets treat them badly".

Much more reasonable to treat them as you'd prefer to be treated if the roles were reversed. Otherwise you're no better than those you'd condemn.

Kiwi in IE

mphalo1 wrote: »

would they do it for us I doubt it

Who is 'they'? Irish citizens of religions other than Catholicsim and no religion? They are 'doing it' already. Their portion of tax used for funding education pays for a system where 90% of schools are Catholic.

Mark Hamill

mphalo1 wrote: »

would they do it for us I doubt it

Even if there is a 'they', we do not show ourselves as being better than them by being just as bad as them.

old_aussie

Next they'll say that all kids must stop eating when it ramadam as it offends the muslim kids

Kiwi in IE

old_aussie wrote: »

Next they'll say that all kids must stop eating when it ramadam as it offends the muslim kids

That would be ridiculous! As silly as expecting all children in second class to spend a large percentage of school time during the year being either 'prepared' for communion, or seperated from their class and not being taught at all!

mphalo1

coolbeans wrote:

That's not an argument. Who are they and us anyway? Think about what you're saying before you type and throw in a bit of punctuation while you're at it. It shows that you've actually considered what you've said.

they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

Tabnabs

mphalo1 wrote: »

they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

Ah here, catholicism is only a recent branch of christianity, which in itself is not a true Irish religion in any form. If you want to play that game, then it's no more "Irish" than Islam or Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism. christianity is about 1500 years in Ireland, pre-christian native Irish religions extend for over 7000 years before that. So thanks, but we've had enough of being pushed around and dictated to by foreign religions.

Dades

mphalo1 wrote: »

they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children...

...our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ... not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

They are Islam?

old_aussie wrote: »

Next they'll say that all kids must stop eating when it ramadam as it offends the muslim kids

Ya think?


Both of you need to consider my earlier warning before posting here again.

Dades wrote: »

It's not okay to respond with silly hyperbole and xenophobia.

coolbeans

mphalo1 wrote: »

they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

Such nonsense I don't know where to begin. What if I'm protestant, do I not fit into your theocratic ideal of the Catholic Irish state? What about the Muslim girl at my workplace who works well and gets on with everyone? Should I fear her because according to you they all want to behead us.
What about those of us who've had it with all religion in the public realm? They don't fit into your catholic state so what to do with them?
Do you even know the difference between sunnis and shias because it's a very broad brush you've got there? Actually, do you have any idea what you're talking about at all because it seems to me you're just shooting from your (ignorant) hip?

Hotblack Desiato

mphalo1 wrote: »

the native Irish chatolics

Those people who can't stop talking?
Hate them.

shruikan2553

Christians kill gay people in some African countries, therefore gay people should be allowed to kill Christians here. Am I doing it right?

It is quite possible for an Irish person to be anything other than Catholic, including Muslim.

TwoShedsJackson

If only our grandfathers had fought for some full-stops.

nc19

The way I look at all things related to Islam and Muslims looking for people to accommodate them is what would the result be if you went to their country and asked for your culture and religious beliefs to be given equal footing. Not a chance.

The french have it right imo

actuallylike wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810



Well, I saw this coming. Will be interesting to see how it goes though. I personally think nothing will happen. If it's taken so long for non denominational schools to get any sort of input, I can't see this getting any traction. If anything though it's just another form of Pastafarianism to me. It's a religion the majority outright reject but have to realise that it is nonetheless a religion, meaning the only way to rationally deal with it is to eradicate all religions. This Ali Selim could do more for secularism than anyone else .

Getting to his requests though, they seem pretty brutal. Girls would have a separate gym to stop men looking at them when they have their head scarves off? No inadvertent touching of boys and girls, meaning school plays would be difficult if not impossible? I'm glad he's going the full hog and requesting such ridiculous things. It shows it up for the nonsense that it is and that's why I'm confident that nothing will happen other than a more secular education sysem be sought after.

Kiwi in IE

mphalo1 wrote: »

they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

What a load of complete gobbledygook!

In the context of the age of the earth and the timeline of human existence, we are not that far removed from the time of the Spanish Inquisition when 'Chatolics' were going about behaving in a way that is pretty much identical to how Islamic State are carrying on presently!

masonchat

Is it islamic/muslim teaching that the rest of us are infidels who are only to be toletated untill they are strong enough to kill us ?
I ask because i really dont know, i know that is the extremist view but how do the non extremists view us

Hotblack Desiato

Another dose of bollixology from Dr Selim.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/muslims-in-ireland-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937

He continues: “school is a public place, where no one has the right to dictate or impose their views or beliefs on another.”

Hah!

actuallylike

Where the wearing the hijab by Muslim girls in Irish schools is concerned he says this “shouldn’t cause any more debate than other religious symbols worn by either male or female students in Irish schools do.”

I've said it before and I'll say it again, take the religious aspect out of it and it becomes really simple.
Want to wear rosary beads? Can you where necklaces? If so, then yes, of course you can. If not then no.
Want to wear a hijab in class? Can you wear a hat in class? If so, then of course you can. If not then no.

The rest of it validates my OP, he's really arguing for a completely secular system without him realising it. Careful now Ali.

mcmoustache

Tabnabs wrote: »

Ah here, catholicism is only a recent branch of christianity, which in itself is not a true Irish religion in any form. If you want to play that game, then it's no more "Irish" than Islam or Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism. christianity is about 1500 years in Ireland, pre-christian native Irish religions extend for over 7000 years before that. So thanks, but we've had enough of being pushed around and dictated to by foreign religions.

It's a feckin' Italian bastardisation of a feckin' middle-eastern bastardisation of a religion practiced by Jews. Nothing Irish about it.

I often wonder how people who equate Irishness with Catholicism can't see that.

Nodin

masonchat wrote: »

Is it islamic/muslim teaching that the rest of us are infidels who are only to be toletated untill they are strong enough to kill us ?

No.

masonchat

Nodin wrote: »

No.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, i understand now

Brown Bomber

nc19 wrote: »

The way I look at all things related to Islam and Muslims looking for people to accommodate them is what would the result be if you went to their country and asked for your culture and religious beliefs to be given equal footing. Not a chance.

The french have it right imo

I (a non Muslim)did live in "their country":rolleyes: and i can assure you my culture and beliefs were respected.

Despite what I assume some on this thread might tell you Obama isn't a Muslim. He was raised for part of his life in the largest (by population) Muslim nation in the world, Indonesia. He attended St Francis of Assisi school in Jakarta. How does this fit in with your assumptions?

Brown Bomber

masonchat wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up for me, i understand now

???

If he/she had of just said yes that would have been good enough for you to think that every Muslim in the world is just biding their time until they can slit your infidel throat for the glory of Allah? Seriously?

Brian Shanahan

What I find most amazing and amusing is the number of posters coming onto this thread, proclaiming Ireland a catholic theocracy as intolerant and opressive as the worst Muslim countries, and all this on the Atheism & Agnosticism forum!

Isn't it just grand that all we have to do to prove our case is open a thread about a not-catholic religion and let in the fundies to play?

Brown Bomber

Savage93 wrote: »

No mention of butchery of non muslims in Iraq or condemnation of same by this eminent religious official of the muslim faith

From the article:
Dr Ali Selim, of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin’s Clonskeagh

Urgent Press Release Concerning ISIS Practices


In full conformity with the Islamic teachings, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland vehemently abhors and deplores terrorism of all kinds regardless of the perpetrators’ race and faith. Murder, the most horrendous act of terrorism, is strictly forbidden in Islam. In a deterring way Allah states that the murder of one person is as evil as killing all people. In the Qur’an it is stated: “whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.” (Trans. 05:32)
On this basis, the ICCI unequivocally condemns the atrocities perpetrated in Iraq in the name of Islam. The ICCI stresses that these crimes can by no means be classified as a just struggle. ISIS is causing damage to image of Islam and Muslims all over the world. We share the shock and the horror of what was shown on the internet and television.
As it condemns all types of terrorism; state, individual and extremist groups, the ICCI appeals to the entire world to live in peace, respect human rights and shun violence and create a just society where atrocities like these can not flourish.
Ends
21/08/2014
http://www.islamireland.ie/news/urgent-press-release-concerning-to-isis-practices/

Satisfied now?

masonchat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

???

If he/she had of just said yes that would have been good enough for you to think that every Muslim in the world is just biding their time until they can slit your infidel throat for the glory of Allah? Seriously?

If the poster said yes then obviously no further explanation would be required,

I was more interested in the general muslim views as i dont know them which was the second part of my post .

And no in reality i dont think that, but on the other hand that is the theme we get from the media so i hoped someone who knew might maybe elaberate

coolbeans

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

What I find most amazing and amusing is the number of posters coming onto this thread, proclaiming Ireland a catholic theocracy as intolerant and opressive as the worst Muslim countries, and all this on the Atheism & Agnosticism forum!

Isn't it just grand that all we have to do to prove our case is open a thread about a not-catholic religion and let in the fundies to play?

Total misrepresentation of what was said but don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

Kiwi in IE

coolbeans wrote: »

Total misrepresentation of what was said but don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

Well he has a good point. Some of the same people who advocate for the continuing privilege of the Catholic religion within the education system appear to be horrified at the suggestion that concessions be made in schools for other religions. It is highly amusing!

School is not the place for children to be indoctrinated with, or coerced into practicing any religion, but other religious groups have a very good argument due to the current system which allows special treatment for Catholicism. All religions should be treated equally within state funded institutions by law. Therefore the only way to go is secular.

Dades

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

What I find most amazing and amusing is the number of posters coming onto this thread, proclaiming Ireland a catholic theocracy as intolerant and opressive as the worst Muslim countries, and all this on the Atheism & Agnosticism forum!

Isn't it just grand that all we have to do to prove our case is open a thread about a not-catholic religion and let in the fundies to play?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, or who you're directing it at. Sorry.

Hotblack Desiato

Think it was aimed at the large number of 'this is a catholic country' and 'build yer own schools' posters who have entered here in the last few days... they're as intolerant towards other religions and atheists as some muslim countries are.

Brown Bomber

masonchat wrote: »

If the poster said yes then obviously no further explanation would be required,

I was more interested in the general muslim views as i dont know them which was the second part of my post .

And no in reality i dont think that, but on the other hand that is the theme we get from the media so i hoped someone who knew might maybe elaberate

Fair enough, I respect your honest answer.

Far be it from me to preach to you and reluctantly I am using broad strokes here but one of the last places to find unbiased information on a given religion would be a place like this where people join together to discuss their hatred of religion.

The last place of all to find unbiased information on Muslims and Islam is the media, who have their own agendas as well.

For example, take Richard Desmond of Channel 5 a the Daily Star. He is a literal "friend of Israel". http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerpike/2013/11/shapps-and-desmond-bond-at-conservative-friends-of-israel-lunch/

And consider then consider the admissions of one of his reporters who revealed that they make up and print Islamophobic stories as news.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-letter-full

What you could do if you want to find out more is visit yur local Mosque, you will be warmly welcomed.

masonchat

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Think it was aimed at the large number of 'this is a catholic country' and 'build yer own schools' posters who have entered here in the last few days... they're as intolerant towards other religions and atheists as some muslim countries are.

I think there is a lot of confusion and its not borne out of any malice , if you go back 30 years this country was almost 100% catholic, i mean apart from the cities maybe and of course protestants (spelling sry) . And you wouldnt find much or any diverse cultures.

Most people over 30 probably view ireland as a catholic country at its core , of course that is no longer the case , and kids growing up today are living in a very different country than i did.

Of course now you have irish citizens of all color and creeds and that brought lots of different religions , and they all have the right to their faith, so you have to cater for them all in schools or none at all.

Problem here is a lot of the schools here are probably owned by the catholic church , so it would be a nightmare for the government to suddenly change to a secular education system

swampgas

masonchat wrote: »

I think there is a lot of confusion and its not borne out of any malice , if you go back 30 years this country was almost 100% catholic, i mean apart from the cities maybe and of course protestants (spelling sry) . And you wouldnt find much or any diverse cultures.

Most people over 30 probably view ireland as a catholic country at its core , of course that is no longer the case , and kids growing up today are living in a very different country than i did.

Of course now you have irish citizens of all color and creeds and that brought lots of different religions , and they all have the right to their faith, so you have to cater for them all in schools or none at all.

Problem here is a lot of the schools here are probably owned by the catholic church , so it would be a nightmare for the government to suddenly change to a secular education system

I agree with much of that, except the last part. If there were political will, it would be fairly easy. After all, the state already defines the curriculum and pays for the staff and much of the infrastructure. It's not like hundreds of new schools need to be built, we just need to make some small but significant changes to the way the current schools are managed.

Nodin

masonchat wrote: »

I think there is a lot of confusion and its not borne out of any malice , if you go back 30 years this country was almost 100% catholic, i mean apart from the cities maybe and of course protestants (spelling sry) . And you wouldnt find much or any diverse cultures.

Most people over 30 probably view ireland as a catholic country at its core , of course that is no longer the case , and kids growing up today are living in a very different country than i did.

Of course now you have irish citizens of all color and creeds and that brought lots of different religions , and they all have the right to their faith, so you have to cater for them all in schools or none at all.

Problem here is a lot of the schools here are probably owned by the catholic church , so it would be a nightmare for the government to suddenly change to a secular education system

No, it would be hard work, which is why they do what every government does, and kick it into touch as much as possible. Same with anything considered "difficult". Eventually there'll be a case of discrimination, the state will be taken to the European court, and they'll have to do something.

recedite

Brown Bomber wrote: »

From the article:
Dr Ali Selim, of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin’s Clonskeagh

whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely

TBH I don't find that quote from the Koran very comforting.
There are two justifications for murder there;

1. Revenge; "a soul for a soul". One possible fundamentalist interpretation of that is "the west" has killed thousands in the middle east and so a jihadist revenge is called for.

2. "For corruption"; One possible fundamentalist interpretation of that is that infidels and particularly atheists are corrupted and so a jihadist clean-up is called for.

Also bearing in mind that there is no central authority in Islam to interpret these things, so the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland does not speak for all muslims in the world. Not even all muslims in Ireland, or even all muslim clerics in Ireland.

PopePalpatine

krudler wrote: »

I laughed at this way more than I should have:

Well, that rules out the imam winning a Ford Mondeo in his own raffle a la Father Ted! :pac: