stray cat has just had kittens

jimf

hi everybody

I have been feeding a little stray cat for a few months now not feral but not friendly enough to be able to hold will allow us to rub her when feeding

I didn't her see this morn so presumed she had given birth and was proved correct as she arrived tonite as usual and its obvious she has been suckling

don't have any experience of cats as such but my plan is to try and increase the amount of food I can get into her as she will obviously need extra to keep up the milk supply for the little ones

can anybody recommend a good quality food preferably tinned that will help her out

most likely she will bring the family to visit in the future and that's a bridge I will cross when I have to

as im self employed I will be around at home a few times during the day is it likely she will now call more as she has her little family to feed

any advice would be greatly appreciated

DBB

I can't help you with anything you've asked for help with, but I can suggest some great names for the kittens

jimf

DBB wrote: »

I can't help you with anything you've asked for help with, but I can suggest some great names for the kittens

dbb banned for a week for being a smart arse

punisher5112

Probably best stop feeding strays or you could end up like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gCr_trhN3o

DBB

Awww crap

punisher5112

DBB wrote: »

Awww crap

Deep kitty crap

jimf

punisher5112 wrote: »

Probably best stop feeding strays or you could end up like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gCr_trhN3o

my house sounds like that alright but its not from the cats

SillyMangoX

Good food for lactating mammy cats would be the royal canin babycat. Can be got in wet or dry and will be safe for the babies to munch on when the time comes too. Start handling them early, like in a week or two, if you can at all as it'll be a lot easier to find them homes if they're a bit friendly. And I think at least one of them should be called boardsie just to make up for the dissapointment :P

boomerang

I have to say it jimf, I really wish you'd spayed her sooner.

But the kittens are here now and both momma cat and her brood are very lucky to have you.

jimf

I know boomerang theres a house about 1/4 of a mile from me that was vacant for a while and I have noticed quite a few cats around there when driving past and my guess is she originated there

I don't even know where she had the kittens silly so my mission now has to be to try and follow her and get some idea of the location where she may have the kittens

will be in limerick later today and will try and pick up the food as suggested

gallag

Cats usually move their kittens a few times so if your place is a safe spot I would be expecting a few lodgers.

boomerang

Don't worry about the location too much for now jimf, the key thing for the next four weeks is to get good nutritious food into mum while the kittens are nursing.

If you can, hold off until tomorrow (Friday) to get the Royal Canin food. There'll be a sale on in Maxi Zoo Ballysimon from Fri-Sun. There'll be buy one 400g bag, get one free on the Royal Canin Babycat and Royal Canin kitten. There'll be a fiver off the 2kg bags as well.

jimf

thanks for that boomerang didn't get to limerick today so she has just had a good feed of roast chicken and I have kept more for later hope this will suffice for now will get rc tomorrow thanks for the info

tried to follow this evening and have got a fair idea of where she may be hiding out theres an old shed in farmyard about 10 mins walk from where I live that's the general direction she was heading

didn't go snooping around in there in case I disturbed her and she decided to move them will let her settle for a few days and will try and search it on sat when my daughter is around

boomerang

That'd be my worry too, that she'd move the kittens to somewhere that's not as safe. The kittens will emerge as soon as they are steady on their feet. They usually start exploring the immediate area around their little den at five/six weeks.

For now keep her on the dry kitten food as it packs more calories pound for pound than wet food and you want to to consume as many calories as possible when she comes for a meal. The Babycat or Kitten 36 will be perfect.

You are so good to her!

jimf

they don't ask to be born so when they are I think its up to us to make it as good for them as possible

my one concern is she seems to be doing a lot of calling I hope im wrong but im concerned in case a tom has got to her little brood

as she seems very young im guessing its her first litter and may not be streetwise to conceal the kittens as well as an experienced mother would

boomerang

Ah jeez. Only thing is, if you are in a rural area there isn't the same number of density of toms competing over her, so less likely a tom would kill the kittens. (Some toms are actually wonderfully paternal and bring food to the kittens, even!) If it's her first litter it's probably a small litter. When she is so inexperienced you would be worried that she's not capable and something has happened to the kittens. All you can do is hope for the best.

jimf

hopefully there ok boomerang I will feed her as if she has a litter anyway until proven otherwise

jimf

I think I may have found her den its in a hedgegrow on a neighbours property when she calls for food later would it be ok to check the area and not touch the kittens im pretty sure I have it pinpointed

mymo

Are you able to rub her or pick her up?

If so I would see if you can spot kittens, don't get too close, if you find them and you're sure they're hers, then catch her and confine her with the kittens until they are ready for homes. (Catch her first, then get kittens, if she escapes capture, she can get back to kittens)
I've had great success with this tactic, but if she moves them and you can't find them it can be hard to tame them and rehome them later, before 6 or 7 weeks it's easy enough.

Bathroom or utility is good place with litter tray, and box with blankets, somewhere quiet.

jimf

I can only rub her when she comes for food mymo she would be best described as semi feral will not allow any holding and disappears once fed

thanks for your suggestions above but id say it would be a major battle

mymo

I understand, best you can do is keep her close by feeding her well, offer her some shelter in the hope she moves the kittens to it, and try and catch them young to tame them, I know it's recommended not to take kittens until 10 weeks, but if they are feral, 6-8 weeks is best, after that they are harder to tame in my experience.
For example I just rehomed a kitten I caught at 7 weeks, she was tame in 24hrs, her sister we caught 2 weeks later and 6 weeks later she's still skittish, but getting better every day.
The last lot I caught at 6 weeks, all were tame in a week, and the only one I caught after 10 weeks ended up spayed and released as semi feral as she was too hard to handle, even after 4 months. (She's happy and well fed, allows a quick rub, but not tame)

Oh and warm roast chicken is like kitten crack

Once kittens are weaned, borrow a cat trap and get mum neutered!
Worming is a must too, parazole is a liquid wormer, safe for nursing mums.

jimf

when she came at 10pm I fed her and had a snoop around where I thought her den is and I found 3 jet black little kits

she seems to have them well hidden under a very heavy hedge so will leave them for now and monitor daily

will try and start to handle them in few weeks time as I don't want her to move them now that I know where they are

its so long since ive seen new born kittens ive forgotten how small they can be jaysus im like a child

New Home

jimf is the new damagegt

jimf

New Home wrote: »

jimf is the new damagegt

ah theres only one damaged :P

janmaree

jimf, when i was in your situation some years back, a seasoned vet advised me to enrich the mother's food intake with some extra fat as cats need more fat than we would think. When we're having to rough it in a way, a little cream or a knob of butter is very good for them (don't worry about salted -v- unsalted butter because cats don't care which it is when they steal it off the counter :mad: I now keep the butter in the breadbin) and they will devour it. I understand about adult cats and milk, some won't touch it and others can't get enough of it but I haven't met one yet who will refuse cream or butter. I may be talking through my hat but maybe not. Good luck and fair play to you for caring so much. I think damagegt has affected us all!

Day Lewin

Cats do talk and "trill" more when they have kittens. They have special gurgling and crooning sounds for talking to and about babies awww
She'll be hungry and thirsty so as long as you have any food for her, she will come for it: she'll know how much to eat - don't forget water - milk uses up her fluids quite a bit.
Handle the kittens from a young age so that they will be more amenable for homing. And see if you can get the mum spayed - I think there are some charities that will help with this if the cost is an issue.
She sounds like a sweet little mother queen - any chance of a photo?

:-)

jimf

katemarch wrote: »

Cats do talk and "trill" more when they have kittens. They have special gurgling and crooning sounds for talking to and about babies awww
She'll be hungry and thirsty so as long as you have any food for her, she will come for it: she'll know how much to eat - don't forget water - milk uses up her fluids quite a bit.
Handle the kittens from a young age so that they will be more amenable for homing. And see if you can get the mum spayed - I think there are some charities that will help with this if the cost is an issue.
She sounds like a sweet little mother queen - any chance of a photo?

:-)

will try and get a photo later as for the kits where they are hidden is nearly impossible to access I can just see in and don't want to interrupt too much

jimf

janmaree wrote: »

jimf, when i was in your situation some years back, a seasoned vet advised me to enrich the mother's food intake with some extra fat as cats need more fat than we would think. When we're having to rough it in a way, a little cream or a knob of butter is very good for them (don't worry about salted -v- unsalted butter because cats don't care which it is when they steal it off the counter :mad: I now keep the butter in the breadbin) and they will devour it. I understand about adult cats and milk, some won't touch it and others can't get enough of it but I haven't met one yet who will refuse cream or butter. I may be talking through my hat but maybe not. Good luck and fair play to you for caring so much. I think damagegt has affected us all!

ya that damaged has a lot to answer for :p

Rips

If you have found the kittens, the best plan of action now really would be to catch/trap the mother and then go get the kittens.

She could be pregnant again before they are weaned, and the younger you get them to handle, the easier it will be.

If she is feral, and you start poking around at them, she WILL move them.

I would at least start gearing up towards the option of catching her, by placing any food you are giving her in a cat carrier, or box/container, so when the day comes to trap her, she's less wary.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had litters of kittens with no mother, as a result of the situation where a feral mother that was being fed was spooked or scared off. I once had one litter brought in in dribs and drabs (mother kept moving them and the feeder had spooked her too many times to even catch sight of her) only the one we got first survived.

boomerang

The kittens are only newborns, waaaaaaay to be soon to be talking about moving them. Plus it'll likely leave mother cat with mastitis. Jimf, with ferals, we usually take the kittens at six weeks, when they are on their way to weaning. That still gives you a good window for intensive handling, they should tame easily if you get them at six weeks. Mum can be trapped and neutered once kittens taken from her.

I definitely would not interfere at all until the kittens are four or five weeks old and at that, only when mother cat is absent, seeing as she's not entirely tame.

You're doing a stand-up job

Rips

boomerang wrote: »

The kittens are only newborns, waaaaaaay to be soon to be talking about moving them. Plus it'll likely leave mother cat with mastitis. Jimf, with ferals, we usually take the kittens at six weeks, when they are on their way to weaning. That still gives you a good window for intensive handling, they should tame easily if you get them at six weeks. Mum can be trapped and neutered once kittens taken from her.

I definitely would not interfere at all until the kittens are four or five weeks old and at that, only when mother cat is absent, seeing as she's not entirely tame.

You're doing a stand-up job

I'm not suggesting that they are separated.

If there is a good opportunity to catch the mother and then pick up the kittens - why on earth would you leave them? As a feral, you can take it that she's had no care, and the kittens could succumb to something as simple as a worm burden.

The best scenario for all involved would be for them to be caught and let the mother rear them in a safe environment, receiving treatment as necessary.

Its also a really good opportunity to tame the mother, most will come to trust you in that situation.

jimf

im a bit lost to how I could possibly confine her and kittens in a safe place rips at the best I can rub her

she certainly wont take kindly to me moving the kittens for sure

janmaree

I certainly understand what Rips is saying but jimf, you're in an impossible situation at the moment as far as the kittens are concerned. You are already doing everything you can and more, a lot of it is up to the mother and her instincts to protect her babies are on high alert right now. That helpless feeling of wanting to make everything right but being unable to, is hard to endure but I've long since learned to let Mother Nature do her best first. I've seen mother cats do the most extraordinary things that most people wouldn't believe and I've cried myself to sleep more nights than I can remember over the things I couldn't change for them. That's the price for loving the wild ones; we do our best and say a prayer and hope for a happy ending. What you're doing is good enough for now because it has to be - you can do no more at this stage other than to support the little Mum, at least she doesn't have to leave them for hours trying to struggle for every scrap of food, because she has you.

Sorry , feeling a bit blue tonight.........as the saying goes, "life is grand, if you don't weaken"!

DBB

janmaree wrote: »

Sorry , feeling a bit blue tonight....

Janmaree,
If I ran a feral cat rescue, I'd want your post as a headline to everyone out there who's trying to help the ferals, to keep them going and to let them know they're doing just fine
A lovely post

jimf

shes been 3 times today for food 10am 5pm 9.15 pm and I checked on the little ones at 5pm and they seem to be thriving all cuddled up and grand and cosy looking as shes only about 3 mins walk from where I live she may be more confident leaving them for a while

i hope im right but she seems to be trusting me a little bit more as well for the last few days

boomerang

Sorry Rips I misunderstood you, I assumed you meant trap, neuter and return the mother now and keep kittens to tame and rehome.

Jimf take it from me, you do *not* want to confine a feral cat with her newborn kittens. It's utterly inhumane as the mother cat will be stressed to the hilt by the confinement, which can have a knock-on effect on milk production - she could even reject the kittens.

Leave her in peace, she is doing a great job and as others have said, you are giving her exactly what she needs right now - good kitten food and someone watching over her kittens for their safety.

Can I just say, I've had a rotten few days in cat rescue world and your total kindness makes up for it all. Sorry, but you're wonderful. xx

jimf

im doing nothing than anybody else on here wouldn't do

if I can help her in any little way that's all I can do for her now

its the struggle to find food in the wild that has to be the biggest problem for her to keep up the milk supply

when my daughter and myself checked them yesterday they looked so cosy and contented little pets how could you ignore them

morgana

Another heart-warming thread. It is reassuring to see not everyone is cruel and uncaring towards cats. You are doing a great job and giving mammy what she needs.
You guys in API are the best.!

janmaree

jimf, just a thought but if she will let you stroke her a little, would you have a couple of minutes to play with her a bit? Maybe a length of ivy or a long stalk of grass like ornamental grasses provide which she can easily get a claw out of if she panics a bit? Most cats love to play and a few minutes here or there would go a long way to building some trust between you. It might help and it's fun .

Pumpkinseeds

Rips wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that they are separated.

If there is a good opportunity to catch the mother and then pick up the kittens - why on earth would you leave them? As a feral, you can take it that she's had no care, and the kittens could succumb to something as simple as a worm burden.

The best scenario for all involved would be for them to be caught and let the mother rear them in a safe environment, receiving treatment as necessary.

Its also a really good opportunity to tame the mother, most will come to trust you in that situation.

That just hasn't been best practice with ferals for a very long time. It would stress the mother cat out. It's best to let her be and let her do her thing while keeping an eye on her and the kittens. Any trust she has with the OP would be destroyed if he tried to confine her.

jimf

janmaree wrote: »

jimf, just a thought but if she will let you stroke her a little, would you have a couple of minutes to play with her a bit? Maybe a length of ivy or a long stalk of grass like ornamental grasses provide which she can easily get a claw out of if she panics a bit? Most cats love to play and a few minutes here or there would go a long way to building some trust between you. It might help and it's fun .

my daughter has tried janmaree and believe me I mean try

it was her who tamed our own lazy slob

im hoping when we start to handle the kittens and she sees we mean no harm to them she might settle a bit more

although she seems to trust me a little more for the last few days fingers crossed

gypsylee

jimf I have been down this road many times with feral cats. What happened several times that the mother brought the kittens to my garden when they are a few weeks old. I started feeding the kittens then with kitten food and when they were weaned I was able to catch the mother and get her neutered. I got homes for many of the kittens and those that I could not find homes for now live in my garden quite contently. I got them all neutered.

You are doing all you can for the present, hopefully the mother cat will trust you enough to bring her kittens home to you.

teggers5

About 12 weeks ago a feral cat had kittens in my mother in laws hedge.. she was only a young cat herself and in very poor condition.
I rang the local rescue for advice. They gave me a cat trap and told me to put the kittens in it. It worked almost straight away. I brought her and her 4 kittens to my house and left her to it in the bathroom where she wasn't disturbed apart from when I fed her and gave her a clean litter tray. Once the kittens were about 4 weeks old I began handling them and getting them adjusted to living in a family home with other cats, dogs, kids etc.. I used to take them out 2 at a time and momma cat never seemed to mind. By the time they were 10 weeks old and fully weaned she was in fantastic condition with bright eyes and a beautiful shiny black coat.
All kittens are now in great new homes. She has been neutered and released where she originally came from. My in laws are leaving out food for her daily. Caught a glimpse of her last week and she's still looking great.

boomerang

Teggers I can assure you that was the wrong thing to do. No feral cat should ever be confined with their kittens, it's beyond cruel.

I worked with a group that used to do this, so I've experience it from both sides. The absolutely best thing you can do for a feral mother cat is support her nutritionally, then trap her and the kittens when they are six weeks. Kittens go to foster homes for taming and socialising. Momma is spayed, health-checked and rapidly returned to her location i.e, within 48hrs post-surgery.

If you remove a feral cat for more than three weeks they will have difficulty reintegrating into the colony.

teggers5

boomerang wrote: »

Teggers I can assure you that was the wrong thing to do. No feral cat should ever be confined with their kittens, it's beyond cruel.

Right or wrong it's done now. I was following the advice of a rescue.
In the end a very healthy neutered feral has been released with a constant supply of food and shelter if she wants it. And four beautiful well adjusted kittens are in their forever homes.

Rips

boomerang wrote: »

Teggers I can assure you that was the wrong thing to do. No feral cat should ever be confined with their kittens, it's beyond cruel.

I worked with a group that used to do this, so I've experience it from both sides. The absolutely best thing you can do for a feral mother cat is support her nutritionally, then trap her and the kittens when they are six weeks. Kittens go to foster homes for taming and socialising. Momma is spayed, health-checked and rapidly returned to her location i.e, within 48hrs post-surgery.

If you remove a feral cat for more than three weeks they will have difficulty reintegrating into the colony.

That's not the absolute 'best' thing you can do for them though?

The absolute best thing you can do for them is to address ALL their needs, not just their nutritional needs. You also taking a huge risk perpetuating the cycle, by leaving them. However you and I are obviously coming from different viewpoints, as I believe that ferals or semi-ferals should be rehomed where possible, not chucked back out and left to their own devices.

In the right environment, as teggers5 suggests, with minimal contact unless necessary, they don't get overly stressed and come around far quicker then a trapped feral with no litter.

Most of the ferals with litters I have taken in have been in extremely poor condition and would not have survived without veterinary intervention.

Yes, there is stress involved, the first 24-48hr period of course, can be very stressful, no more then trapping to neuter. At least if they are trapped at an earlier stage, they can have 24-48hrs with just feeding and minimal contact to get them acclimatised.

Rips

Not to mention that it makes the whole process of actually having them spayed, go so much easier on them, as they can usually be handled, not rammed into a crush cage and spiked with a needle. Its also safer, as they can be monitored in recovery.

TNR leaves a lot to be desired. Its a quick fix when you don't have the funds or facilities to do right by a cat.

boomerang

The absolute best thing you can do for them is to address ALL their needs, not just their nutritional needs. You also taking a huge risk perpetuating the cycle, by leaving them. However you and I are obviously coming from different viewpoints, as I believe that ferals or semi-ferals should be rehomed where possible, not chucked back out and left to their own devices.


Rips, I'm going to ask you to concede to my experience in this situation. I don't know of anyone in this forum that would have more experience with feral cats than I do.

Feral cats do *not* come around as a result of confinement with their kittens. A cat that becomes friendly within weeks is not a feral cat. They do not acclimatise. Their fear does not lose it's edge with time. The minute they have the opportunity, they bolt.

I have worked in rescue where feral cats were confined until the kittens were weaned and I can still picture their wide-eyed fear - and they were only interfered with twice a day to change food and litter. It is not just the proximity to people that frightens them - it is the fact they cannot get away - the fact of their confinement that terrifies them.

You do not need to confine a feral cat for veterinary intervention. The mother feral cats that we help are spayed, health-checked, treated for worms, fleas, earmites etc. and we provide the carer with donated cat food if they're not making ends meet and the cats are under-nourished.

1800 feral cats later I have yet to recall a situation where we left a mother cat with her kittens in situ until the kittens were five to six weeks, with a bad outcome for mother cat or kittens.

By removing the mother cat from her location until the kittens are rehomed, you're leaving her no way back into her colony.

The fact that you think ferals should be rehomed rather than "left back out to their own devices" tells me that you honestly don't know a huge amount about feral cat welfare.

These cats are deeply attached to their familiar environment, they know where they can be relatively safe, and what dangers to avoid. They know where they will find food. They live within an extended family, to whom they are closely bonded. When you release a feral cat after neutering, you're not sending out into an unfamiliar, cruel world. You're sending it home.

We only relocate feral cats if they don't have a caretaker to feed them, or if we are forced to because the caretaker is moving house/the cats will be poisoned/there are too many cats so that the neighbours are extremely unhappy and mutinous... Why? Because relocations don't always work, however great the set-up at a new location can be. In my experience, relocations only work out 90% of the time. There's only one way to ensure a relocation works 100% of the time, and that's to confine a feral cat in your home indefinitely. Something which to me, is akin to flooding and is serving the person's emotional needs, and not the cat's.

teggers5

Here's a pic of stray & kittens while at my house.

boomerang

Rips wrote: »

Not to mention that it makes the whole process of actually having them spayed, go so much easier on them, as they can usually be handled, not rammed into a crush cage and spiked with a needle. Its also safer, as they can be monitored in recovery.

TNR leaves a lot to be desired. Its a quick fix when you don't have the funds or facilities to do right by a cat.

A feral cat will not be weeks later transformed into a docile, pettish creature. They still need to have an I/M injection in a transfer cage. To suggest that they are manhandled, rammed, spiked etc. is a complete dis[service to the people like me who help these cats out of love and do everything in their power to make the experience as stress-free as possible. And of course the cats can be monitored in recovery? Flank spay incisions can be monitored for dehiscence or infection. All cats returned within 24hrs, the only exceptions being in case of surgical complications or cats that require additional treatment e.g. for infected wounds, tail amputations etc. The very longest I'm prepared to confine a feral for treatment is 10 days. Stress delays recovery.

TNR is the only intervention that respects the feral cat. I am laughing you think it is a quick fix. We are still supporting cats that we TNRd when we started out three years ago. We don't just put the cats back out and move on. We treat already TNRd cats that get sick or injured. We worm them periodically. We provide warm cat houses for them. We feed them when the caretaker cannot. We give food if the caretaker can't afford to buy it.

You're being insulting, actually. But rather than drag out the convo here on Jim's thread, here are links to two online publications for you that might give you some info to mull over.

Feral Cats Ireland handbook: http://www.feralcatsireland.org/Feral_Cats/CATalyst.html

Limerick Feral Cats TNR guide:
http://www.animaladvocacy.ie/tnr/how-to/for-veterinary-clinics/tnr-for-veterinary-nurses

New Home

boomerang wrote: »

I have worked in rescue where feral cats

teggers5 wrote: »

Here's a pic of stray & kittens while at my house.

Sorry for butting in, but maybe that's where the misunderstanding lies...

Now, back to minding my own business...