Horrible dog attack - are further laws required?

OldNotWIse

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Why not confront the owner? Because its not my job to enforce the law. And because if an individual is irresponsible as a dog owner, then they may well be irresponsible in other ways.

The comment you have made above just makes my blood boil. What is the point in having laws at all if they are not going to be enforced. Obeying the law is not an 'a la carte' list.

Sorry for being more concerned about children being shot in gang feuds and drug trafficking and women being raped on the way to work than a turd in your local park. If that makes your blood boil, I cant help you.

Now, I think we already covered the enforcement issue: it's the warden's job. The Gardai will not come out over a civil issue.

OldNotWIse

boomerang wrote: »

Poor little dude, those are some nasty lacerations. Really feel for him. Gotta hope he won't grow up being afraid of dogs now.

No doubt he will be traumatised. I've worked with various animal welfare organisations and I hate to say it because I dont like generalisations but there are some people that you just know are going to have acertain kind of dog because it "makes them look macho" or whatever and they dont have a clue about the breed, temperament, control etc.

I agree that very tough sentencing for dog owners when such incidents occur is the only way. This might act as a deterrent. Owners should be held vicariously liable for the actions of their animals. The same way they are responsible if they own a dangerous weapon etc.

OldNotWIse

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Hold on a second though... what is your interpretation of the law?

You said:


Were the owners there?
How do you know they weren't watching them?
Were they RB dogs or were they just large dogs? Would it have mattered if it was small dogs?
Does the park have additional local council bye laws?

A dog off lead is not breaking the law. A dog that's not under effectual control is breaking the law. For a dog to be out of control is that the owner can't control it/has no recall on the dog or has deliberately let the dog roam.

Now in saying all that what annoys me is off lead dogs where their owner is ignoring that they are making a nuisance of themselves with other dogs or annoying people. But there are also situations where people get up in arms because a dog is off lead full stop. I've had people gesture towards me on the beach from a good distance away because they aren't happy with off lead dogs, even though they are not affecting them in any way and not breaking any laws.

There are a lot of people (and I suspect there are some on here) who are just waiting to get annoyed. I never ever leave my dog's pooh behind. The place is falling down with doggy bags and on the rare occasion I've been caught out I've managed to borrow one or use a brown paper bag. Once I had to return home and grab one and run back. But I have lost count of the amount of dirty looks I've received from people before my dog's sh1t has even hit the ground! It's almost like they want me to chase her with a bag and catch it mid air or something. They're nearly disappointed when I produce a bag.

borderlinemeath

OldNotWIse wrote: »

There are a lot of people (and I suspect there are some on here) who are just waiting to get annoyed. I never ever leave my dog's pooh behind. The place is falling down with doggy bags and on the rare occasion I've been caught out I've managed to borrow one or use a brown paper bag. Once I had to return home and grab one and run back. But I have lost count of the amount of dirty looks I've received from people before my dog's sh1t has even hit the ground! It's almost like they want me to chase her with a bag and catch it mid air or something. They're nearly disappointed when I produce a bag.

I ran out of doggy bags once at the beach and rustled up a pair of rubber gloves and a crisp packet to bring with me out of the van. The rubber glove worked a treat!

OldNotWIse

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I ran out of doggy bags once at the beach and rustled up a pair of rubber gloves and a crisp packet to bring with me out of the van. The rubber glove worked a treat!

Amazing how innovative we can be!

SoapMcTavish

I've got a dog, and she's rarely on a lead when we walk. I collect her poop, and I've got a dog licence.

I think that the licence is where you start - dog owners should be fined for not having one. Wardens / gardai - should ask for licence. Make owners carry it - or face fine.

And if your dog is involved in an incident, and you don't have a licence - huge fine.

?

Dubl07

SoapMcTavish wrote: »

I've got a dog, and she's rarely on a lead when we walk. I collect her poop, and I've got a dog licence.

I think that the licence is where you start - dog owners should be fined for not having one. Wardens / gardai - should ask for licence. Make owners carry it - or face fine.

And if your dog is involved in an incident, and you don't have a licence - huge fine.

?

That's quite a good idea. Horses all have the same 'birthday', don't they? If we did the same for dogs and issued a collar token each year it would help identify unlicenced dogs.

DBB

Dubl07 wrote: »

issued a collar token each year it would help identify unlicenced dogs.

That's how they work it in Northern Ireland, the annual licence takes the form of a metal disc on the dog's collar.
If not disc, there's a chunky fine.
They also added a nice touch, by making the annual license substantially cheaper for neutered dogs (from, I think £50 down to £5).
Simple, but joined-up thinking!

brianon

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I've had people gesture towards me on the beach from a good distance away because they aren't happy with off lead dogs, even though they are not affecting them in any way and not breaking any laws.

From your brief description of this situation. It absolutely sounds like they were affecting them.

SoapMcTavish

DBB wrote: »

That's how they work it in Northern Ireland, the annual licence takes the form of a metal disc on the dog's collar.
If not disc, there's a chunky fine.
They also added a nice touch, by making the annual license substantially cheaper for neutered dogs (from, I think £50 down to £5).
Simple, but joined-up thinking!

What's stopping our councils doing similar ? Seems obvious thing to do ?

DBB

SoapMcTavish wrote: »

Whats stopping our councils doing similar ? Seems obvious thing to do ?

Oh stop! Obvious things are not always obvious to the people they need to be obvious to!:o
In fairness, some council wardens are much stronger on enforcement than others, but you'd think that a simple, visible license would make life a whole lot easier for the wardens.

ElKavo

SoapMcTavish wrote: »

Whats stopping our councils doing similar ? Seems obvious thing to do ?

Logic... There is no real thought into animal legislation in this country. As usual the legislation in place is a knee jerk reaction to incidents like this. Although I believe there is law to be passed where all dogs are to be microchipped to come into force next year or 2016. Dogs trust are currently running a scheme to give away free chips to people.

Eh, I should have said dogs. Free microchips for Dogs.

SoapMcTavish

DBB wrote: »

Oh stop! Obvious things are not always obvious to the people they need to be obvious to!:o
In fairness, some council wardens are much stronger on enforcement than others, but you'd think that a simple, visible license would make life a whole lot easier for the wardens.

... and put an onus of responsibility on dog owners ....

borderlinemeath

brianon wrote: »

From your brief description of this situation. It absolutely sounds like they were affecting them.

Absolutely not, in any way at all were they near the woman. I was walking down by the shore and she was way up by the sand dunes on a very, very wide beach. I think her problem was that I had my own dogs and also 2 greyhounds and a lurcher. People tend to have breed perceptions and this woman certainly seemed to, she stopped two other people walking down the beach and that's when she gestured towards me in a "look at all those dogs, I wouldn't go near her, she might be dangerous" type way. If she was happy she could have approached me. My pair of setters and the lurcher were off lead, playing in the water, she wasn't exactly dressed to go swimming with them.

I do my best to go to the beach at off peak times so as to deliberately avoid most people in case they have issues with dogs, during the summer I went down at 9.30/10pm and during the winter it's not unusual to be the only one, or one of very few walkers on the beach, and as stated before it's very big, huge in fact, so it's very easy to stay out of peoples way.

devildriver

The story is very short on detail. It's a terrible thing to happen to any child.

The lesson to be learned is that both dogs and small children should be under adult supervision at all times.

OldNotWIse

devildriver wrote: »

The story is very short on detail. It's a terrible thing to happen to any child.

The lesson to be learned is that both dogs and small children should be under adult supervision at all times.

I wouldnt leave my dog alone even with an older child. It's not because she has done anything to warrant suspicion but you just dont know what will happen and I do it as much for her sake as for theirs. We live in such a claim culture now where people put a quick buck before all else. What would stop someone pretending your dog had done something it hadn't? I need to think about her safety too.

Tombo2001

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Sorry for being more concerned about children being shot in gang feuds and drug trafficking and women being raped on the way to work than a turd in your local park. If that makes your blood boil, I cant help you.

Now, I think we already covered the enforcement issue: it's the warden's job. The Gardai will not come out over a civil issue.

Great, what other laws should the police not bother with......no wonder there is so little civil responsibility in Ireland when people take this attitude.

DBB

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Great, what other laws should the police not bother with......

Tombo2001 and OldNotWise.
Stop.
Now.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Again the dog has been put down before any investigation. We can only go on the word of a 4 year old. I grew up across the road from that place. Its a place were kids wander the streets until all hours. Its got drugs problems as well as murders.

Here are some stories from the area bare in mind the size of the area. (its tiny) takes less then a minute to walk through it .....

http://www.herald.ie/news/murdered-rapist-ignored-garda-tipoffs-27943015.html

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/elderly-friends-in-dublin-city-freeze-to-death-found-days-later-by-health-officials-187275451-237559371.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/couple-dead-stoneybatter-suspected-gas-leak-754018-Jan2013/

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/attempted-robbery-four-men-charged-119461.html

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/gangland-boss-shot-in-dublin-pub

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/heroin-addict-stole-9000-from-grandmother-court-told-25995164.html

Reason i go on about the background, is because alot of these dog attacks are coming from an impoverished area that suffers with unemployment, drugs etc ....

Its not down to the breed of dog but the area in which the dog is living. We all knew it was only going to be a matter of time before something like that happened there.


But i also want to point you to the other "husky" attacks in Ireland and how the Media handle it ......

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/girl-6-mauled-by-husky-dog

Girl mauled by Husky dog. A picture of a Norwegian Elk hound and further down the page "dog -- believed to be an American Akita"

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/boy-3-savaged-by-pet-husky-189490.html

This was actually a Malamute


So if they are from Siberia, Alaska or Norway, they are all Huskies in the medias eyes. Its a witch hunt.


and my point about the background of the areas Google Carew Park Limerick the site of the Malamute attack and you can see whats going on there.

gg2009

I think its awful what has happened to the child but as reported by the childs mother today on Pat Kennys radio show, the child entered the two dogs garden without permission from the land owner. The dogs were secure within the garden, so under effective control, and the child had not been invited to enter.

While dogs should always been under effective control many public park and beaches have specific times were they allowed to play "off leash" such as in Dublin where it is before 11am and an hour before closing in the evening and after closing in my DCC parks.

So dogs are ALLOWED off leash then and if a parent can't control there children approaching (waving sticks etc) at my dogs while they are ALLOWED off leash and remain under effective control then I am not going to start panicking about it.

A park I visit has a lovely dog park where the dogs socialise and play together any time of the day as it is enclosed...but the amount of parents who bring children in to let them play with the boisterous and fast dogs is beyond irresponsible...often met with the reply of they are letting the kids get used to dogs..how would they feel if I brought my dog to the kids playgroud...i wouldnt get through the gate!!

The parent should have told her child not to enter someone elses garden without permission.

paddysdream

Just sitting down for the grub and saw this thread.

A few points;
There are fines for unlicenced dogs.Think its 80 euro but unsure of that.My local council has a dog warden and has been around to houses to check.Usual procedure is to drive into the yard ,see what dogs are there and ask for a licence.If none available you get a form with a reference number which you ring into the council along with the dog licence number when you get it.Think you have 14 days to get the licence or face a fine.
She told me amount of dogs roaming free is unreal.Had her call round the area after a few dog attacks on sheep here which were reported to the Gardai.

Farm organisations,amongst others,campaigned for compulsary microchipping of all dogs from 2016 onwards.Great idea but will only the responsible owners comply?In NI think there was either a subsidy or free microchipping for the first while.

As a sheep farmer dog control is something I feel quiet strongly about.Having had numerous dog attacks over the years ,get rather pi**ed off with people"just letting out the dogs for a run".
People who fail to ascertain whether their dogs are securely locked up,esp. at night are just asking for trouble.

Am entitled to shoot any dog on my property which I either see attacking my livestock or which I feel may pose a threat to them or is out of control.This is not my personal opinion but that of the Gardai and solicitor.Seen a dog shot nearby whilst worrying sheep and the dog owner complained to the Garda.
They were told not to be wasting Garda time and that they were lucky the farmer left it at being compensated for the single sheep bitten.
Usual answers you will get from a dog owner whose pet has done damage are;

Not my dog(despite it being in his house each day and the vet reading the microchip for me)
Shur my dog is never out of the yard(despite lying dead in my field)
My dog is harmless(despite me seeing him rip sheep to shreds)
Ah its only a few bites on a lamb(despite it rendering a 90 euro lamb only fit for the skip)
He only ran through them and didn't bite any(despite the 20 abortions and 40 dead or twisted lambs inside the heavily pregnant sheep)

Know all the above is not quiet as serious as a child being mauled but if people saw what their lovable family pet can do to an animal they might take more care.Its not the dog I blame but the owner in 99% of cases but you can hardly shoot the owner now can you?

Just to say that from my point of view the most trouble is caused by terriers,gundogs,labs and sheep dog type dogs plus other assorted mongrels and not those percieved by people as "dangerous" such as dobermans,german shephards or more exotic and rarer large dogs.
People who keep those tend to (at least around me)take more care and interest in their dogs and seem to be more aware that they should know where their animals are at all times.

Hooked

Here we f-ing go again...

Just like the attack reported earlier this year in Limerick, I imagine a lot of the 'facts' will be missing when this is sensationalised for the various media...

Cue a few weeks of ridiculous comments and people crossing the road to avoid us.

brianon

Hooked wrote: »

Here we f-ing go again...

Just like the attack reported earlier this year in Limerick, I imagine a lot of the 'facts' will be missing when this is sensationalised for the various media...

Cue a few weeks of ridiculous comments and people crossing the road to avoid us.

So long as your dog is on a leash (and muzzled if required) I'll not cross the street to avoid you

Frigga_92

gg2009 wrote: »

I think its awful what has happened to the child but as reported by the childs mother today on Pat Kennys radio show, the child entered the two dogs garden without permission from the land owner. The dogs were secure within the garden, so under effective control, and the child had not been invited to enter.

So the child entered a stranger's garden, without their permission, unsupervised and was attacked and the dog was put to sleep?

Richard tea

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

So the child entered a stranger's garden, without their permission, unsupervised and was attacked and the dog was put to sleep?

I listened to the interview also. The mother said both kids sat on a wall before entering the garden to pet the dogs. This is when the attack happened.

To be fair the only people that know what happened are both the kids. A neighbor did hear the screams and came to the kids aid but did not witness the attack.

Hooked

brianon wrote: »

So long as your dog is on a leash (and muzzled if required) I'll not cross the street to avoid you

Oh, they are... And walked twice daily minimum, poop bags in tow, licences all paid up.

Yet, time and again - shoddy journalism, poor parenting and/or irresponsible dog ownership - will impact those who adhere most to the law(s).

The sooner people are properly reprimanded for falling foul of dog related laws, the fewer and fewer of these 'attacks' will occur.

As an owner of two Sibes, I spent a whole day correcting rte, today fm, limericks live95 fm, the mirror, the leader, the post... On the last 'husky' attack!

An American Akita, left to roam the streets daily. And a 6 year old that went back for seconds, despite the dog 'warning' her. Yet, who received the calls, texts and was avoided for the best part of a month...

Me!

And don't get me started on how these 'breeds' are (or rather are not) identified. Pure hearsay and word of mouth in most cases.

How bout the warden identify the breed via some IKC paperwork... No... No.., that would be using your head.

Jesus wept. I'm sick of this...

peasant

Leaving aside control and responsibility issues (which I agree with) what always gets me is the hype and hysteria that follows a dog attack on a child.
No interest by the media whatsoever in clearing up the facts or perhaps using this sad occasion for a bit of basic education on how (not) to behave around dogs, just sensationalism.

Btw ...when are we going to ban the use of children's bicycles?
Compare the numbers of children badly injured by dogs to those badly injured or even killed by bicycles every year ...you'll find that bicycles are far more vicious than dogs.

dodderangler

^^^^^Comparing bicycles to a dog?
Yeah I can see the headlines now.
Child walking harmless dog is viciously attacked by a killer bicycle. Child escapes with tyre marks but dog took the brunt of it.

peasant

dodderangler wrote: »

^^^^^Comparing bicycles to a dog?

Nope ..but making a somewhat flippant remark to get things into perspective.

dodderangler

dodderangler wrote: »

^^^^^Comparing bicycles to a dog?
Yeah I can see the headlines now.
Child walking harmless dog is viciously attacked by a killer bicycle. Child escapes with tyre marks but dog took the brunt of it.

I think the point he is getting at is bicycles kill more children every year then dogs. Yet there are no restrictions.