Daughter forced to believe in God

bajer101

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.


MOD NOTE:
This thread has gaot a lot of attention, unfortunately from some posters who aren't interested in the facts and only with agendas. Please take a look at the relevant beats in this post before jumping in with two feet.
Kthxbye
Dades

Mod Note deux:
OP has given his latest update here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92160833&postcount=935

Tombo2001

In this day and age, she won't be the only child whose parents think its a load of nonsence.

Talk to the other parents, and see if a bunch of you can have a 'chat' with the teacher.

Dont want to be the only one taking on the teacher, and leave your child a bit exposed.

I would definitely challenge it though, its outrageous to be sending a child up to the principal for this reason.

freshpopcorn

Talk to the teacher and principal!

Gerry T

FFS, unreal. I think I would talk to the principal and teacher. Ask can they respect your belief (or non-belief) and that your choice is your daughter will make her mind up without undue influence. That she will respect that people do believe but that she shouldn't be threatened.

Tombo2001

It would be interesting to hear from parents who have challenged schools on this. I'd agree also that I am a bit taken aback by the amount of religious education, and its something I would like to address.

Cabaal

OP, you need to talk to the school about this as its affecting your child.

Its not good enough for the school to bully your child into belief in a god that they/you don't believe in, completely unacceptable. You need to make it clear that their actions (sending to the principal etc) is bang out of order and won't be tolerated. At the end of the day they would not treat a Muslim etc in this manner.

magicbastarder

i would not describe option 4 as the nuclear option, but the most sane and sensible one (coupled with the dialgue approach in option 3)?

NewCorkLad

I would go with option 3. The teacher/principal might just think your daughter is acting up and trying to be funny. Try talking to them and explaining the situation before jumping to any conclusions. Then go nuclear if they wont help.

eviltwin

Talk to the teacher and principal first - calmly. Kids can exaggerate things so it may not have gone down exactly as she said. If they aren't able to respect your child's lack of religion I would report them to the DOE. That approach can't be allowed to go unchallenged.

magicbastarder

one simple way of phrasing it - ask the principal if (she) believes whether the school should have a greater say than her parent in what religion she does (or does not) follow.
if the principal pushes it, you can tell the principal you and your daughter are converting to judaism, and ask whether they are going to force your daughter to leave the school because she's jewish.

techdiver

You have a constitutional right to opt your child out of religious instruction.

I would go option 4, but that's just me.

salmocab

School handled that bad but you also should explain to your daughter that the other children have beliefs that she should be careful about. My wife runs a creche and one of the childrens parents doesn't believe in christmas and told the child that Santa doesn't exist who then announced it to the other 3 year olds and my wife had trouble with the mother who claimed she doesn't lie to her daughter. Probably best to talk to the teacher and make arrangements to have your child miss religious classes etc.

Cabaal

OP,
I'm assuming they knew your child was no catholic when you enrolled them? Also do they have a baptism cert from the catholic church?

Tombo2001

Cabaal wrote: »

OP,
I'm assuming they knew your child was no catholic when you enrolled them? Also do they have a baptism cert from the catholic church?

Not sure why you would assume that.

Every tom dick and harry in the country knows that if you want to get your kid into an Irish primary school (or at least most primary schools) you need a baptismal cert to be confident of a place.

Do you think parents say "this is just a box ticker folks, we dont really believe" when they are delivering the cert in.

Delirium

Talk to the principal and teacher.

It really isn't an appropriate way to deal with a pupil by stating if she "said that again that she would be sent back to her old school". Especially if it fosters an attitude in her peers that it's okay to bully her.

The child is only 7 and neither the teacher or principal should be bullying her for her difference of opinion regarding deities. The teacher should have just directed your daughter to get on with her work rather than threatening her in class.

Cabaal

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Not sure why you would assume that.

Every tom dick and harry in the country knows that if you want to get your kid into an Irish primary school (or at least most primary schools) you need a baptismal cert to be confident of a place.

Not all parents choose to enter their kids into the catholic faith and then later claim their kid is not catholic
:rolleyes:

People that baptise their kids just for school placements and then claim the catholic faith is a load of nonsense are part of the reason why the state don't bother changing legislation regarding schools being allowed to reject students and teachers on religious grounds.
:mad:

The only way this awful situation can be changed long term is for parents to take a stand, the more the better. It'll benefit atheist and people of all other faiths at the end of the day.

I understand some parents worry about school placements but in all honesty if you baptise your child you agree to raise them in the catholic faith, its then laughable to enter them into a school system claiming they are catholic and once they get into it to claim they are not catholic.

NewCorkLad

SW wrote: »

Talk to the principal and teacher.

It really isn't an appropriate way to deal with a pupil by stating if she "said that again that she would be sent back to her old school". Especially if it fosters an attitude in her peers that it's okay to bully her.

The child is only 7 and neither the teacher or principal should be bullying her for her difference of opinion regarding deities. The teacher should have just directed your daughter to get on with her work rather than threatening her in class.

Children have been known to exaggerate situations, go and talk to them without talk of bullying and threatening and come to a solution

sheesh

first port of call would be teachers and principal.
remember too that tolerance goes both ways in this situation. You moved your child to a catholic school they are going to want to know why you moved her there so do not come off as being anti religion. You're touching base with them to see if there is anything that can be done about the 'current issue'. make a determination as to what you want to do then once you get the real lie of the land.

If they are uber catholic (unlikely) and think she should suck it up maybe you should re-consider the logistics of getting your daughter to the educate together school.

Delirium

NewCorkLad wrote: »

Children have been known to exaggerate situations, go and talk to them without talk of bullying and threatening and come to a solution

Disagree. The nature of the problem is that the daughter has said she is being bullied and threatened by staff. I don't see how that problem can be addressed without mentioning it.

wrt40

Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.

Tombo2001

wrt40 wrote: »

Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.

Ridiculous.

The vast majority of parents are "lying" if thats the case, if the empty congregations save for the 80+ brigade is anything to go by.

Gerry T

Schools have to be taken out of control of the church....there now, that's going to set things off nicely !

Principal should have more cop-on, anyone with an grain of sense would know not to talk that way to a child.

Roquentin

in this day and age i would have thought this indoctrination of children would have ceased. In the words of father ted ****in' hell. Real bad form by the teacher. would have thought he/she was old enough to have common sense. then again with the isis beheading people in the name of islam, sadly things still have a long way to go. If it were me id get the child to another school and name and shame the school

Delirium

wrt40 wrote: »

Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.

"Look you lied to get your child into the Catholic school. But your subterfuge has been found out. Best dial up the deception. Make sure to get the daughter on board btw."

So bascially lie and tell the daughter that it now isn't okay to believe in whatever she likes. That she must now lie to her peers and teachers in order to get by.

That's a really grown-up way to tackle the problem.:rolleyes:

*headdesk*

PopePalpatine

Humanity didn't progress by appeasing bullies.

BTW OP, why did you choose to move your child into a Catholic school? Was the commute to the ET school too long?

wrt40

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Ridiculous.

The vast majority of parents are "lying" if thats the case, if the empty congregations save for the 80+ brigade is anything to go by.

I'm not saying I agree with the situation but the fact is if you lie and pretend to be catholic to get into a catholic school then you can't expect them to be happy about it. Especially if you have been baptised, in their eyes you are straying and losing your faith and it is their duty as a teacher of a Catholic school to get you back on the path of enlightenment.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the fact of the situation. the OPs daughter made a mistake, she's a child or teenager, it happens. It'll be tricky to get out of it now but I think going in and announcing that you're an atheist and they better back off with the religion is ill advised considering the lengths people go to to lie about it.

Delirium

wrt40 wrote: »

I'm not saying I agree with the situation but the fact is if you lie and pretend to be catholic to get into a catholic school then you can't expect them to be happy about it. Especially if you have been baptised, in their eyes you are straying and losing your faith and it is their duty as a teacher of a Catholic school to get you back on the path of enlightenment.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the fact of the situation. the OPs daughter made a mistake, she's a child or teenager, it happens. It'll be tricky to get out of it now but I think going in and announcing that you're an atheist and they better back off with the religion is ill advised considering the lengths people go to to lie about it.

Where did the OP say they did this? Does it apply to this situation?

Roquentin

burn the school down

wrt40

SW wrote: »

Where did the OP say they did this? Does it apply to this situation?

I had started by assuming this is the situation. Maybe op should clarify. If she's attending as one of the 5% allocated for non Catholics then that's another story.

wrt40

SW wrote: »

"Look you lied to get your child into the Catholic school. But your subterfuge has been found out. Best dial up the deception. Make sure to get the daughter on board btw."

So bascially lie and tell the daughter that it now isn't okay to believe in whatever she likes. That she must now lie to her peers and teachers in order to get by.

That's a really grown-up way to tackle the problem.:rolleyes:

*headdesk*

OK, not lie but just don't go around announcing your an atheist. Let the dust settle and just play along from now on. It's a Catholic school and if you lied to get in then what else do you expect?

Delirium

wrt40 wrote: »

I had started by assuming this is the situation. Maybe op should clarify. If she's attending as one of the 5% allocated for non Catholics then that's another story.

Catholic schools aren't allocated for Catholics exclusively.

Gerry T

wrt40 wrote: »

OK, not lie but just don't go around announcing your an atheist. Let the dust settle and just play along from now on. It's a Catholic school and if you lied to get in then what else do you expect?

Some understanding and acceptance from a religious order would be a nice start.
I don't think it sets a good example to a child to "play along".

The OP has said he will not stop his child following a faith so is doing the right thing by putting the kid into a school where he/she can get exposure to the belief system. The school should follow the same morals

JohnBee

Im trying to remember the source and exact words but a famous US politican quote comes to mind which essential was "atheists shouldnt be allowed to vote".

The attitude of the school illustrates the commonly held perception that atheists are somehow evil. Ironically, despite the fact that a muslim or jew or hindhu would follow a faith that is not permitted and considered false by catholics, they no doubt would not have had this reception for 2 reasons. Number one is fear on the part of the school that they would be chastised for discrimintation. Number two that despite having a different religion, catholics would still "respect" them.

Atheists can be discriminated against without fear. Perhaps an option is to highlight your true noodly leanings and state that as a Pastafarian your child could not take part in catholic religious classes.

Fundamentally though it sickens me. In no way would they say to a muslim that they cant believe in Allah and that they have to start following catholicism. It might be worthwhile for the OP to find out if any other faiths are in attendance at the school and find out what reception they received.

wrt40

You can't seriously expect the op to use his 7 year old daughter as a tool to fight the corrupt system. I think you're all seriously deluded in thinking the catholic school has any obligated to make exceptions to their ethos. On the subject of other religions being accepted, I've only ever seen that from wealthy families. Make of that what you will but I've no doubt a generous donation for the school roof fund would see a drastic change in their attitude.

Czarcasm

OP there isn't nearly enough information in your post to be able to say anything conclusively one way or the other, but before you get yourself worked up into a frenzy, I would suggest that you follow proper procedure to resolve the situation -


Talk with your daughter's teacher first. If the outcome of those talks are unsatisfactory, schedule an appointment to meet with the principal.

If you're still unsatisfied with the outcome, you should consider engaging the services of a solicitor who will be able to advise you on drafting a letter to the Board of Management of the school, and whether you should make an official complaint to Gardaí regarding your daughter being harassed by the other pupils and the staff in the school. A Garda liaison officer will take a complaint of harassment seriously.

At that point, you may not need to write a letter to the Dept. of Education and Skills, but your solicitor may be able to advise you on this. I personally would hope that the matter could be resolved long before you need to escalate it to that level, merely for your daughters sake, as the procedure can take time, and in the meantime this can be quite stressful on both you and your daughter.

No child should have to put up with that level of harassment, simple as that.

Cabaal

wrt40 wrote: »

You can't seriously expect the op to use his 7 year old daughter as a tool to fight the corrupt system. I think you're all seriously deluded in thinking the catholic school has any obligated to make exceptions to their ethos. .

So if for example a Jewish person lives in an area that only has Catholics ethos schools you think that the Jewish family should shut up and allow their child to be thought the Catholic faith as the true faith while in school? ..

You think they are unreasonable to expect their kid should not be told their faith is the wrong faith?

They shouldn't have the option to opt their child out of Catholic religion in a tax payer funded school?

wrt40

Cabaal wrote: »

So if for example a Jewish person lives in an area that only has Catholics ethos schools you think that the Jewish family should shut up and allow their child to be thought the Catholic faith as the true faith while in school? ..

You think they are unreasonable to expect their kid should not be told their faith is the wrong faith?

They shouldn't have the option to opt their child out of Catholic religion in a tax payer funded school?

It all depends on whether he lied to get into the school and the extent of the lie, I.e did he go as far as getting the child baptized.

Should educate together make exceptions to their ethos and begin enforcing Muslim values?

Cabaal

wrt40 wrote: »

It all depends on whether he lied to get into the school and the extent of the lie, I.e did he go as far as getting the child baptized.

Maybe I'm missing something, where did the op say they claimed they were Catholic on entry?

Also what about people who change faiths? Do you not enable them any rights? Do you think they should be force fed the Catholic religion and told their faith is a lie?

Should educate together make exceptions to their ethos and begin enforcing Muslim values?

What are you even on about?

Nobody is looking for the ops school to instill other values in anybody else, the op is merely looking for their child to opt out of a faith they don't believe in, a reasonable request in a tax payer funded school.

Do a think a Muslim, Jewish etc person should be able to opt out of the Catholic faith teaching in a tax payer funded school that they as tax payers pay for. You're damn right I do.

bajer101

Hi all, OP here. Thank you for all the replies and apologies for not replying sooner - I'm not long in from work. To add a bit more information, my daughter was baptised. Her mother (who no longer lives in Ireland) wanted it done. i never lied to the school in any way. They asked for a baptismal cert, but they never asked anything about my beliefs or my daughter's beliefs. The school is associated with an order of Nuns, but I have never seen a Nun there. I changed school as we were supposed to move house during the summer, but that all fell through. There is also a child care facility beside the new school which do morning drop offs and afternoon collections, which suits me better for work. The school is also on my way to work, so even though the house move fell through, it's still a better option logistically. There probably isn't even a place in her old school now as there was already a waiting list.

My daughter never expressed much of an opinion about religion one way or the other until this. Someone suggested that she may be exaggerating, but I don't think that she is - certainly not about the teacher telling her that she would be sent back to her old school as that is not something that she could make up. She may have picked up what the principal said incorrectly, as she did also mention that the principal said that she had to belief in God to make her Communion. It could be that the school aren't aware of my position and assumed that I would want them to enforce their ethos, but they knew she was in an Educate Together school previously and they should have contacted me if they were unsure.

I don't really want to go in all guns blazing demanding justice - I just want to find the best outcome without compromising mine or her morals. She said to me herself that if she pretended to believe in God that would be a lie and would be wrong. I'm quite proud of her over all this and I need to make sure that I don't let her down, but at the same time finding a reasonable solution. I am not sure what the situation is in these schools regarding "opting out". If that is an option, it may be the best, but there is also the problem of her being isolated and that may make the issue with the other kids worse.

I've decided to keep her out of school tomorrow as I am having a procedure in hospital tomorrow and she is having a sleepover in her Nana's. I'll take time over the next few days to work out how best to proceed. I reckon I'll have to talk to the teacher first and see what the reaction is when I tell her that I'm an atheist and that I want Emily to decided for herself. If I get the vibe that they are going to try and force their beliefs on her, I will have to move her and take it further.

wrt40

Cabaal wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something, where did the op say they claimed they were Catholic on entry?

Also what about people who change faiths? Do you not enable them any rights? Do you think they should be force fed the Catholic religion and told their faith is a lie?



What are you even on about?

Nobody is looking for the ops school to instill other values in anybody else, the op is merely looking for their child to opt out of a faith they don't believe in, a reasonable request in a tax payer funded school.

Do a think a Muslim, Jewish etc person should be able to opt out of the Catholic faith teaching in a tax payer funded school that they as tax payers pay for. You're damn right I do.

He didn't, that's why I said it depends. And what you think or feel doesn't change the fact that it's not how things work.

RustyNut

wrt40 wrote: »

Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.

What would lead you to think that the OP lied about anything.

This is why religion should be taught in personal time if the parents believe in a god then they should teach that superstition in their own time not with the tax money that should be used teaching them something useful.

OP I would talk to the teacher and the principle,explain your position and see how it goes from there.

If you are a child who says that you believe in god, that has been forced upon you. If you are a child who says you dont believe in God that has also been forced upon them.

You sir have forced that upon the child and then sent her to a Catholic school.

EunanMac

bajer101 wrote: »

It could be that the school aren't aware of my position and assumed that I would want them to enforce their ethos, but they knew she was in an Educate Together school previously and they should have contacted me if they were unsure.

How on earth would they be aware if you didn't tell them ?
Quite a few Catholic schools have non Catholics in attendance, and they make alternative arrangements for them, but you're going to have to let them know. They are not mind readers.

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

If you are a child who says that you believe in god, that has been forced upon you.

True.

If you are a child who says you dont believe in God that has also been forced upon them.

How on earth do you figure that out? Your previous sentence entirely contradicts it.
It's also entirely irrelevant for the purposes of this thread what the OP chooses to say or not say to his daughter about religion. He doesn't want his daughter to receive religious instruction, end of.

The child has a constitutional right to an education, and to attend a state-funded school without receiving religious instruction.

You sir have forced that upon the child and then sent her to a Catholic school.

90+% of primary schools are catholic. Many areas have NO non-religious school option at all, I live in one :mad:

So you reckon that the OP should just shut up and let the school indoctrinate his child against his wishes, is that it? Why? Would you say the same thing to a muslim, jew, hindu etc? or is it just atheists who should have no rights?

Hotblack Desiato

EunanMac wrote: »

How on earth would they be aware if you didn't tell them ?

It sounds ridiculously ignorant and bullying behaviour, whether they knew or not about the OP's views they should never have treated a child in this way.

Cabaal

wrt40 wrote: »

He didn't, that's why I said it depends. And what you think or feel doesn't change the fact that it's not how things work.

Really?
That's not how it works, so schools don't allow opt outs?

Damn, loads of people I know and also here on boards must be all lieing in that case.

bajer101

Deleted User wrote: »

If you are a child who says that you believe in god, that has been forced upon you. If you are a child who says you dont believe in God that has also been forced upon them.

You sir have forced that upon the child and then sent her to a Catholic school.

That's nonsense. She can believe whatever she wants to and will make her own mind up. She doesn't believe in unicorns either - did I force that on her?

GLaDOS

OP sounds like there's a bit of communication lacking, so I'd echo other peoples advice and go for a chat with the teacher and principal, hopefully they'll be reasonable about this. They very well could have thought they were carrying out your wishes in enforcing Catholic ethos (though their behaviour sounds fairly appalling in doing so)

TheQuietFella

You're an atheist sending their child to a catholic school & you have an issue with a staff member defending their sacred beliefs? Get a f**king grip.
You shouldn't have sent her there in the first place!

Gerry T

TheQuietFella wrote: »

You're an atheist sending their child to a catholic school & you have an issue with a staff member defending their sacred beliefs? Get a f**king grip.
You shouldn't have sent her there in the first place!

Your point would be ok if the school was funded exclusively by the church, teachers salaries paid by the church then they could set the rules. But scholes are funded by the GOVT so your point doesn't make any sense

TheQuietFella

To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?