Daughter forced to believe in God

Dades

GreeBo wrote: »

Likewise for Irish, History and pretty much all other subjects.

There's nothing likewise about it. If your child doesn't pass Irish he/she would be excluded from going to an NUI college (including UCD) after their LC. That is a real thing and potentially a big thing if the course your child wants is in one of those colleges.

GreeBo wrote: »

Anyway, the point isnt why you should learn something, the argument put forth on this thread is that it should be up to the child and that the teacher shouldnt question the child's opinion.

What you are advocating is that the child is not old enough to know what they believe (have you conversed with many 7/8 yr olds?) therefore they should be left in class where they will eventually succumb to the indoctrination or die of boredom and be buried in an unmarked grave. What is to be gained by forcing the child to be involved?

vibe666

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes in my opinion it is or was as my Luke is now in secondary school.

but you pushed him through it anyway even though you thought he was too young?

robindch

swampgas wrote: »

Can we get a mod warning added to the thread title warning posters to read (or at the very least skim) the whole thread before commenting?

A good idea in theory, but in practice, it's hard to do that on a rapidly-moving thread with ~650 messages in the space of one week.

FWIW, I think most posters would read or skim the most recent twenty or thirty posts - anything more than that is probably expecting a little much.

lukesmom

vibe666 wrote: »

but you pushed him through it anyway even though you thought he was too young?

Correction, I thought he was too young to decide for himself so yes he made his communion and conformation like the rest of his class. I'm not an athiest so I had no problem with him being taught and involved in RE classes. If I was an athiest I would make damn sure that his teacher knew well in advance that he wouldn't be participating in RE.

Cabaal

Weathering wrote: »

Don't worry I read OP so settle yourself Swamp. If you feel that strongly about it and are that distressed about, wait for it a Catholic school then you should do everything in your power to go an ET school and if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.

another uneducated comment,
nice job

update 1
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92058583&postcount=39

OP doesn't mind religion being taught
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92138440&postcount=607

until his daughter said she didn't want to make communion
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92130915&postcount=450

now OP has resolved this with the Principal
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92136196&postcount=571



Maybe a mod wants to put ^ that in the OP or a link to it

Neyite

GreeBo wrote: »

A 7 year old doesnt have the ability to make those complicated decisions, hence they cannot legally drink, vote or be convicted of crimes like an adult would. This is not *my* basis, its pretty common throughout the first world.

Maybe its changed now, but back in the eighties, children were at least 7 before first confession and first holy communion because the church deemed them old enough at that age and not before, to understand right from wrong, and know what sins they were commiting and therefore had to confess.

Weathering wrote: »

Morale of the stoty is don't send her to a religious school then biitch when they try to impose religion upon their students

Where would you propose I send my son when there is no non-catholic school in a 50 mile radius to our home? And I'm not halfway up a mountain either!

Families in cities and towns have choices, sometimes depending on waiting lists for schools, but millions of us dont - we live in rural areas where even having a newsagent is several miles away. So I dont get the luxury of choice - the best I can hope for is that my child can opt out of RE in class time, and not get bullied for his family beliefs.

Orion

Weathering wrote: »

Don't worry I read OP so settle yourself Swamp. If you feel that strongly about it and are that distressed about, wait for it a Catholic school then you should do everything in your power to go an ET school and if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.

So if the only option is a catholic school then tough sh1t - become a practising catholic and stop whinging. Is that what you're saying? If so then you're talking complete crap. Kids can and do have the option to excuse themselves from religious education - in any school. What happened in the OP was completely out of order and has been resolved satisfactorily for the parent through rational measures. I'd hope that you never become a school principal with your attitude.

Cabaal

vibe666 wrote: »

but you pushed him through it anyway even though you thought he was too young?

Its ok, Luke was indoctrinated into the right sort of belief.
that makes everything all ok no matter what age the child is. :pac:

But having a child at any age with no belief...pfft they are too young to understand that
:rolleyes:

Dades

vibe666 wrote: »

please go back and read the thread before commenting on things that have already been responded to a ridiculously large number of times, this is starting to feel like groundhog day every couple of hours.

Given this response I doubt it would have made a difference.

Weathering wrote: »

if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.

"Weathering. Championing minority rights since 2012".

lazygal

On the back of this thread, I decided to email my local TDs to ask about non denominational education options for my children in my local area. I'll see what they have to say. Perhaps others might like to do the same?

Delirium

Weathering wrote: »

Don't worry I read OP so settle yourself Swamp. If you feel that strongly about it and are that distressed about, wait for it a Catholic school then you should do everything in your power to go an ET school and if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.

The OP didn't mind their child having religion lessons. The problem was the unprofessional manner in which the teacher and principal initially reacted when the child stated she didn't believe in God.

This problem could easily have occurred with a Christian parent and child. No child should be threatened with expulsion for stating a belief. Nor should the staff be telling a child they must believe in God as it's a breach of their Human Rights.

Christian schools make up 96% of national schools. That leaves approximately 200 non-Christian ( which may be Jewish/Muslim or ET) as alternatives.

"well it's a Catholic school" is an entirely unhelpful attitude as in many towns/counties, they are the only school. Scenarios like the one that opened this thread highlight the need for a secular public school system so that no child (whatever their religious perspective) has to put up with threats or coercion to follow a certain religious mindset.

Gerry T

GreeBo wrote: »

How does the teacher know that the parent is ok with the child refusing to believe in God unless the parent tells the school?

We would have a similar outrage thread on here if a religious parent found out that their child specifically wasnt being taught Catholicism (for example) purely because they child said the didnt believe.

What exactly is wrong with expecting the parent to inform the school that the child isnt to be taught religion? No one seems to be able to give me a reason why this is a problem or an unreasonable request of the parent.

There is no issue with a parent telling the school, but its the schools responsibility to find out. So if the school assumes, and a child expresses an opinion then the school can't tell the kid they are wrong, because the school is responsible.
Just like my kids had to get a permission slip signed by me, issued by the school to say that they could attend a school trip. I didn't have to inform the school that under no circumstances should the school take my kids on a trip ??

The debate is not about why the child was or wasn't getting RE lessons. That's not an issue for the OP. The issue is how the teacher responded when the child disagreed with the teacher.
Put another way if a teacher told my kid that dinosaurs were made extinct 10,000 years ago and my child said it was over 50million yrs ago I wouldn't expect the teacher to say she has to believe its 10,000 years because the bible says that's when the universe was made by god or she has to pack her bags and go back to her old school. FFS that's what we are talking about, the teacher's response to a 7yr old questioning things.

Weathering

Cabaal wrote: »

another uneducated comment,
nice job

Another snobby, high horse comment. Nice job. Very unmod like comment. More fitting of an uneducated yob like me

Dades

bluewolf wrote: »

Maybe a mod wants to put ^ that in the OP or a link to it

Added it to post #1 FWIW.

Orion

Weathering wrote: »

Another snobby, high horse comment. Nice job. Very unmod like comment. More fitting of an uneducated yob like me

Cabaal is not a mod in this forum any more than your or I are. And he was right.

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

another uneducated comment

Weathering wrote: »

Another snobby, high horse comment.

Folks -

Please put down your umbrellas, take one step back, lean forwards and shake hands.

Thanking youze

Weathering

Orion wrote: »

Cabaal is not a mod in this forum any more than your or I are. And he was right.

Did I say he was? I said it was un mod like which it is and then you came in so maybe it isn't too unmod like after all. Someone has a different opinion to you and they must be "uneducated"

If that isn't snobbery to the highest degree then I don't know what is. But it's ok you can say what you like you are a mod. It ryhmes with God. Funny that

robindch

Weathering wrote: »

If that isn't snobbery to the highest degree then I don't know what is. But it's ok you can say what you like you are a mod. It ryhmes with God. Funny that

Please read the post which immediately precedes yours.

- robin.

Cabaal

Weathering wrote: »

Did I say he was? I said it was un mod like which he is and then you came in so maybe it isn't too unmod like after all. Someone has a different opinion to you and they must be "uneducated"

If that isn't snobbery to the highest degree then I don't know what is. But it's ok you can say what you like you are a mod. It ryhmes with God. Funny that

I never said you were uneducated, I said your post/comment was uneducated...you may wish to re-read it,
Of course you resorted to personal abuse directed specially at me, not my post.

Me being a CMod has nothing to do with my posts in this forum, doesn't matter if you think otherwise you are very much wrong in your belief.

I am a user in this forum, same as everyone else..except the mods of this forum

Gerry T

Weathering wrote: »

Did I say he was? I said it was un mod like which he is and then you came in so maybe it isn't too unmod like after all. Someone has a different opinion to you and they must be "uneducated"

If that isn't snobbery to the highest degree then I don't know what is. But it's ok you can say what you like you are a mod. It ryhmes with God. Funny that

Just when we thought we were getting places...not again...what part of the thread don't you get.
Here are 3 comments posted that you might have a different opinion on, if so please elaborate.
Every child has a constitutional right to an education.
No state funded school can exclude children on religious grounds.
Every school has a responsibility to provide alternative arrangements to children that opt out of RE class.
If you don't have an issue with this, why are you posting the dribble you have been ?

Orion

So reply to my previous two responses then and Neyite's example?

What should he do if the only option is a catholic school? Most towns in Ireland only have that option. So should he homeschool? What about his job? Should he just go along with a religious indoctrination that he doesn't agree with? Or should he do exactly as he did and speak to the principal about the inexcusable comments from the teacher and come to a solution that satisfies everyone?

It seems you'd rather pick up on some blunter comments than mine but not defend your own comments when the flaws in them are pointed out.

Weathering

Cabaal wrote: »

I never said you were uneducated, I said your post/comment was uneducated...you may wish to re-read it,
Of course you resorted to personal abuse directed specially at me, not my post.

Me being a CMod has nothing to do with my posts in this forum, doesn't matter if you think otherwise you are very much wrong in your belief.

I am a user in this forum, same as everyone else..except the mods of this forum

Funny how the instigator plays the victim card. Justifying your comment by saying you were calling my comment uneducated not me? A comment cannot be educated/uneducated only a person can be so please don't insult me. Then say I personally attacked you lol. I will respect Rob and leave now. Enjoy your Catholic education

Dades

Don't take the bait people... be better than that.

vibe666

GreeBo wrote: »

The Catholic school didnt exclude her because she is not Catholic, in fact the school didnt even know.
How was the teacher expected to know that the child wasnt to be taught Catholicism?
Your argument about the church and property etc is irrelevant to this discussion and just anti-Catholic schools in general. (Which I dont necessarily disagree with btw)


The parent could have avoided it by letting the teachers/school know.
Again, how does the school/teacher know that they shouldnt be teaching the child religion?
They cant do it solely based on the 7 year old, otherwise I wouldnt have done Irish, Maths etc.


Indeed.
A child is much more likely to believe in a "thing" rather than the science of a puddle of ooze.


The parents decide what religion the child is taught. They then inform the school
Expecting the school to listen to the views of a 7 year old child is frankly ridiculous.

very fortunately for all the children of Ireland, your opinion on how worthless their views are doesn't count for a great deal compared to the Irish Constitution and EU law concerning the fundamental rights of all children within Ireland and the EU and since religious indoctrination is not mandatory a child has every right to decide they don't believe in god (or gods) at any point during their education and no school or teacher has any right to try and force them to acquiesce.

and just for the record, (technically speaking) the OP's daughter is just as much of a catholic (i.e. not very much at all) at this stage in the game as every other child in the class as she has a baptismal cert and has not taken her first holy communion, same as every other 7 year old.

the OP has already stated MULTIPLE times that his daughter hadn't said she didn't believe in god previously (in fact it was the contrary the last time they had spoken of it) and that she had gone to mass with her grandmother on several occasions AND that he didn't have any issue with her being taught religion in school or getting her communion, up to the point where she had decided herself that she didn't believe in god and then had a teacher and principle try and force her to believe by threatening her with expulsion.

nobody is to blame here except a primary school teacher in a catholic school who for some bizarre reason couldn't handle a 7 year old girl questioning the existence of her god without trying to bully her into belief.

Cabaal

Weathering wrote: »

Funny how the instigator plays the victim card. Justifying your comment by saying you were calling my comment uneducated not me? A comment cannot be educated/uneducated only a person can be so please don't insult me. Then say I personally attacked you lol. I will respect Rob and leave now. Enjoy your Catholic education

Don't let the door hit you....
:rolleyes:

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you....
:rolleyes:

I haven't seen such spectacular flouncing since the Dublin Pride festival.

Roquentin

its when you see threads like this that you realize socialism just wont work

robindch

Weathering wrote: »

[...] plays the victim card [...]

Weathering wrote: »

I will respect Rob and leave now.

I didn't ask you to leave, I asked to you make peace with your fellow poster(s) and for him/her to make peace with you.

If you prefer to bounce out the door in a huff instead, well, that's your call.

bajer101

Dades wrote: »

Don't take the bait people... be better than that.

Yeah lads - if I can keep my cool in this thread, anyone can!

Weathering

robindch wrote: »

I didn't ask you to leave, I asked to you make peace with your fellow poster(s) and for him/her to make peace with you.

If you prefer to bounce out the door in a huff instead, well, that's your call.

3 Mods now. Fck the lots of yous. Ban me. Feel big about yourself. Smug *****. Corrupts assholes. And that girls comment above is homophobic. Doubt u will do fck all about that either. Door already hit me bye

robindch

Weathering is taking a day off to relax and feel the warm sun on his/her face, see the clouds scuttle across the blue, blue sky, hear the leaves rustle in the early autumn wind and other poetic stuff like that.

magicbastarder

nice day for it at least.

Gerry T

he sounds like a Christian

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cabaal

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I just wish that more people who aren't actually Catholic didn't get their kids baptised or didn't register as Catholic on the census. It would put an end to these kind of threads fairly lively if the true number of non Catholics became apparent.

not a parent yet, but basically this post sums up my feelings about the whole thing.

Myself and my wife have already agreed that in all good conscious we couldn't baptise any children we have,

Starting life out with a lie and agreeing to raise such children within the "ethos" of an organization responsible for such much suffering, abuse and hatred towards friends of ours would be just wrong.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

GreeBo

Dades wrote: »

There's nothing likewise about it. If your child doesn't pass Irish he/she would be excluded from going to an NUI college (including UCD) after their LC. That is a real thing and potentially a big thing if the course your child wants is in one of those colleges.

But thats not relevant, maybe my child wants to live in a tree somewhere or become an artist, learn a trade?
If you are advocating that you should do certain things as a child incase they are needed as an adult then why not do the same about religion, yunno, in case its actually all true. Otherwise your child wont get into heaven, or Valhalla.

Dades wrote: »

What you are advocating is that the child is not old enough to know what they believe (have you conversed with many 7/8 yr olds?) therefore they should be left in class where they will eventually succumb to the indoctrination or die of boredom and be buried in an unmarked grave. What is to be gained by forcing the child to be involved?

Yep thats exactly it. What I am most definitely not advocating is that the only responsible adult who is aware of the current situation regarding the child informs the other adults who they have given charge of their children to.
In which case both they and the parents could agree that they be left out of the religious teachings that they dont want to be part of.

vibe666 wrote: »

very fortunately for all the children of Ireland, your opinion on how worthless their views are doesn't count for a great deal compared to the Irish Constitution and EU law concerning the fundamental rights of all children within Ireland and the EU and since religious indoctrination is not mandatory a child has every right to decide they don't believe in god (or gods) at any point during their education and no school or teacher has any right to try and force them to acquiesce.

While your child is in school the school are acting as the parents of the child, they are in charge of the childs needs.
In a religious school, unless otherwise noted, that charge is going to involve learning the religion of the school.

vibe666 wrote: »

and just for the record, (technically speaking) the OP's daughter is just as much of a catholic (i.e. not very much at all) at this stage in the game as every other child in the class as she has a baptismal cert and has not taken her first holy communion, same as every other 7 year old.

Sorry, I didnt realise that you had the ability to read minds of children and decipher their beliefs, kudos to you. Belief isnt a technicality, being in the same environment is.

vibe666 wrote: »

the OP has already stated MULTIPLE times that his daughter hadn't said she didn't believe in god previously (in fact it was the contrary the last time they had spoken of it) and that she had gone to mass with her grandmother on several occasions AND that he didn't have any issue with her being taught religion in school or getting her communion, up to the point where she had decided herself that she didn't believe in god and then had a teacher and principle try and force her to believe by threatening her with expulsion.

The parent and child had a conversation about it prior to the incident; thats the time to have the conversation with the school/teacher/principal.

vibe666 wrote: »

nobody is to blame here except a primary school teacher in a catholic school who for some bizarre reason couldn't handle a 7 year old girl questioning the existence of her god without trying to bully her into belief.

ok, if you dont think its the parents fault for explaining the situation, clearly it must be the 7 year old for not being able to explain their theological position to a teacher.

Cabaal

GreeBo wrote: »

ok, if you dont think its the parents fault for explaining the situation, clearly it must be the 7 year old for not being able to explain their theological position to a teacher.

Or the teachers inability to take a child's non-belief seriously, something many adults who follow religions also have a large amount of trouble doing too so its not at all shocking.

Instead they assumed the child was trouble making or just trying to be "different", again something many religious adults assume when they talk to other adults who are atheists.

lazygal

It's bizarre that any child is put on the spot and expected to explain his or her theological position when availing of a state service.

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

It's bizarre that any child is put on the spot and expected to explain his or her theological position when availing of a state service.

It certainly is,
Imagine if you had to provide your local Doctor, state funded Creche etc with a baptism cert....just to use the services, and if you didn't have one you'd have to travel perhaps miles and miles to avail of non catholic ethos services.

Of course state services such as the HSE often simply assume you are catholic without any such evidence to support this.

I know thats what the HSE put down on my file.

bajer101

GreeBo wrote: »

The parent and child had a conversation about it prior to the incident; thats the time to have the conversation with the school/teacher/principal.

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

update 1
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92058583&postcount=39

OP doesn't mind religion being taught
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92138440&postcount=607

until his daughter said she didn't want to make communion
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92130915&postcount=450

now OP has resolved this with the Principal
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92136196&postcount=571



Maybe a mod wants to put ^ that in the OP or a link to it

(Or Cake or biscuits? .)

vibe666

GreeBo wrote: »

But thats not relevant, maybe my child wants to live in a tree somewhere or become an artist, learn a trade?
If you are advocating that you should do certain things as a child incase they are needed as an adult then why not do the same about religion, yunno, in case its actually all true. Otherwise your child wont get into heaven, or Valhalla.


Yep thats exactly it. What I am most definitely not advocating is that the only responsible adult who is aware of the current situation regarding the child informs the other adults who they have given charge of their children to.
In which case both they and the parents could agree that they be left out of the religious teachings that they dont want to be part of.


While your child is in school the school are acting as the parents of the child, they are in charge of the childs needs.
In a religious school, unless otherwise noted, that charge is going to involve learning the religion of the school.

Sorry, I didnt realise that you had the ability to read minds of children and decipher their beliefs, kudos to you. Belief isnt a technicality, being in the same environment is.


The parent and child had a conversation about it prior to the incident; thats the time to have the conversation with the school/teacher/principal.



ok, if you dont think its the parents fault for explaining the situation, clearly it must be the 7 year old for not being able to explain their theological position to a teacher.

still going with the totally ignoring what the OP has already said over and over again about how the situation arose and the previously held beliefs of the child that have also been repeated over and over?

and still ignoring the basic constitutional and human rights of the child in this case and other examples that have been given.

no child in this country has their religious affiliation branded into their forehead permanently at birth and everyone (even a child) is perfectly entitled to change their mind about whether or not they believe in god at ANY time, as i imagine a lot of the non-believers in this forum would have done at some point in their formative years.

i really can't believe i'm already having to say this again, but seriously, you go back and actually read what the OP has posted in the thread numerous times because right now (as are several other posters) you are arguing over your own misconceptions of what you think has happened, when the reality of the how the situation came about is not at all what you seem to think it is.

GreeBo

Cabaal wrote: »

Or the teachers inability to take a child's non-belief seriously, something many adults who follow religions also have a large amount of trouble doing too so its not at all shocking.

Instead they assumed the child was trouble making or just trying to be "different", again something many religious adults assume when they talk to other adults who are atheists.

Perhaps the assumed that the parent would have mentioned something to the people they were entrusting their child'd education with?

lazygal wrote: »

It's bizarre that any child is put on the spot and expected to explain his or her theological position when availing of a state service.

Indeed, thats what parents are for.

vibe666 wrote: »

still going with the totally ignoring what the OP has already said over and over again about how the situation arose and the previously held beliefs of the child that have also been repeated over and over?

and still ignoring the basic constitutional and human rights of the child in this case and other examples that have been given.

no child in this country has their religious affiliation branded into their forehead permanently at birth and everyone (even a child) is perfectly entitled to change their mind about whether or not they believe in god at ANY time, as i imagine a lot of the non-believers in this forum would have done at some point in their formative years.

i really can't believe i'm already having to say this again, but seriously, you go back and actually read what the OP has posted in the thread numerous times because right now (as are several other posters) you are arguing over your own misconceptions of what you think has happened, when the reality of the how the situation came about is not at all what you seem to think it is.

What am I ignoring exactly?
Did the parent and child have a conversation about religion?
Did that happen before the incident in the school?
Did the parent inform the school of this incident?

For the zillionth time, Im not discussing whether or not the child has to learn any religion, I frankly dont care.
The point I'm making, ad nauseum, is that the teacher cannot be expected to take the word of a 7 year old on what the are supposed to teach them.
Expecting a teacher to ask a classfull of kids what they do or dont believe in, in a Catholic school is just silly.

Dades

It's about the teacher's/principal's reactions. Their responses were inappropriate. The correct course of action would have been to take the issue to outside of class rather than confronting the child.

The OP hadn't broached the question of religion with the school as he was letting the child find her own way.

Orion

Cabaal wrote: »

not a parent yet, but basically this post sums up my feelings about the whole thing.

Myself and my wife have already agreed that in all good conscious we couldn't baptise any children we have,

Starting life out with a lie and agreeing to raise such children within the "ethos" of an organization responsible for such much suffering, abuse and hatred towards friends of ours would be just wrong.

We did the same. We select No religion on the census for all of us - but the census question itself is fundamentally flawed. The question is "What religion are you" then lists a few, then a box for Other, then item 7 (I think) is None. The question should be "Do you have a religion Y/N" then "If Yes tick below".

Cabaal

Orion wrote: »

We did the same. We select No religion on the census for all of us - but the census question itself is fundamentally flawed. The question is "What religion are you" then lists a few, then a box for Other, then item 7 (I think) is None. The question should be "Do you have a religion Y/N" then "If Yes tick below".

Or change it to a more loaded question

"Do you practice a religion?"

if most people answer it honestly the answer is no

lazygal

A German out your money where your mouth is approach would be even better. It'd cut out the hatches, matches and dispatches brigade very quickly.