Daughter forced to believe in God

GreeBo

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You cannot know that you are right. You don't know the child, the op, the school or the teacher, so therefore you don't have sufficient information to disbeleve the op's verdion of events.

This is A&A, selective belief is demanded.

lukesmom

The whole discussion has taken a turn that makes it difficult to debate the facts . I do believe the op's story. Anyway it's been resolved so I reckon that should probably be the end of it unless we want to keep saying it's true or it's false which I'm finding boring at this stage.

Brian Shanahan

ardle1 wrote: »

No sh!t Sherlock, who's the clever boy?
Anyway yee who knows it all...
So your saying, all that came from 'dust'!? and it's not part of a greater plan by God,...
So why have scientists not created(in a lab)something similar to the creation of life/being, or at least give us a small example of the moment life began on Earth.. HUH WELL?!
Anyway I know there's a God... I can feel it in my perfectly sculpted(by the man himself) bones

I know I shouldn't, but fcuk it. You're seriously callng a creature whose breathing and eating apparatus are so intertwined that eating a pretzel (to use a famous example) is a choking hazard, a creature whose hips are so bodged together that the female is often risking her life in labour because the baby's head is too big, that contains an organ with no function (the appendix) but which can kill you if it bursts, perfect?

Go away with yourself and learn some basic biology.

vibe666

lukesmom wrote: »

The whole discussion has taken a turn that makes it difficult to debate the facts . I do believe the op's story. Anyway it's been resolved so I reckon that should probably be the end of it unless we want to keep saying it's true or it's false which I'm finding boring at this stage.

It's worth sticking with it lukesmom, even if only to get €10,000 donated to temple street.

Brian Shanahan

GreeBo wrote: »

This is A&A, selective belief is demanded.

That's what happens when you let religious people talk about their beliefs, and then contrast that with what their leaders insist they believe.

Naturally, atheism as a simple non-belief doesn't have that issue.

vibe666

GreeBo wrote: »

This is A&A, selective belief is demanded.

Only by those who abandon logic and reason and refuse to acknowledge basic facts and evidence that doesn't suit their argument.

Cabaal

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I know I shouldn't, but fcuk it. You're seriously callng a creature whose breathing and eating apparatus are so intertwined that eating a bagel (to use a famous example) is a choking hazard, a creature whose hips are so bodged together that the female is often risking her life in labour because the baby's head is too big, that contains an organ with no function (the appendix) but which can kill you if it bursts, perfect?

Go away with yourself and learn some basic biology.

Don't forget, its a species that if it does bare off spring the off spring is at great risk for several years, for starters it can't walk, feed or defend itself from any predator and is completely reliant on an adult to care for it.

Compare this various other species who's off spring can walk and run within hours or days of being born, we as a species are far from perfect esp when born.

lukesmom

Okay I've been thinking about this thread and I want to apologise to the OP.

1. For not reading all his posts properly and jumping to conclusions.
2. For continually going against him when it's actually HIS daughter and he came looking for advice.
3. For disagreeing with his reasoning when to be honest he was perfectly entitled to let his daughter make up her own mind.

Sorry.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

GreeBo

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Those blaming the particular school because it happens to be Catholic are the ones I have a problem with.
Complain to your local TD about lack of non denominational schools, dont complain to the school.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

lazygal

GreeBo wrote: »

Those blaming the particular school because it happens to be Catholic are the ones I have a problem with.
Complain to your local TD about lack of non denominational schools, dont complain to the school.

Coincidentally I have contacted all my local Tds about my non denominational education options in my area. The one who has replied has referred to multi and inter denominational schools. I'll give the person concerned the benefit of the doubt that they don't understand the non denominational elements that aren't in multi and inter denominational schools. And if I receive information on why there's no non denominational schools in Ireland I'll update.

Cabaal

lukesmom wrote: »

Okay I've been thinking about this thread and I want to apologise to the OP.

1. For not reading all his posts properly and jumping to conclusions.
2. For continually going against him when it's actually HIS daughter and he came looking for advice.
3. For disagreeing with his reasoning when to be honest he was perfectly entitled to let his daughter make up her own mind.

Sorry.

Alot of respect for this post,

In fairness this thread has been a very fast paced thread and can get heated at times, while for some the whole religion in schools may not be a big deal for others its a identity that they either want for their children or don't want pushed on their children. Religion is a very personal thing at the end of the day, for some it works, for others it doesn't do anything for them.

Its far from a black and white topic that there's a yes or no answer for as each person is different and it is certainly evident that one way or another there are many people unhappy with how our education system is currently operated, this is of course further backed up by the UN condemning the Irish goverment for aspects of it too.

Sometimes I think we all need to step back and take a breather, I think this really applys to all of us (incl me of course) in this thread in one regard or another.

ash23

There are a few posts mid way through the thread that make me uncomfortable as a non religious person.
I find the belittling of those who have religion quite hard to stomach. Saying things like "To be an atheist in Ireland is sometimes to feel like the only sane man in the asylum. " or "Sometimes I think that 90% of religious folk are insane believing in this so-called God that cannot be seen or measured in science. Maybe 90% of the population are insane. There is no proof anywhere that this God exists, so how can folk blindly believe it to be true. "


What bothers me most about the likes of comments like these is that people who spout it believe that their non-beliefs should be accepted and respected. And of course they should.

But the way to be accepted and respected is not to belittle and undermine other people and what they believe.

I'm not religious as I said, I veer between agnostic and atheist if I had to define myself.

However I have seen the comfort that religion can bring and sometimes I wish that I could believe. I find church very peaceful and I like attending mass. I dislike the hype around communion and confirmation but I let my child decide what she wanted to do and she went with it.
I have problems with some of the teachings of the Catholic church but I've also seen the compassion and comfort that a clergy member can bring to a family.
Our Parish priest would be the type of man who could just sit and say nothing and you'd still feel better for his presence.


I will and have brought up the need for more non-denominational schools or more ET schools. I would continue to speak out against the Church and their teachings about sex, divorce, homosexuality, abortion etc. However I will never patronise someone who is part of a religion by claiming I am more intelligent or that they are "insane".

I can't see why some atheists can't see that they actually do the cause more harm than good by being militant and dismissive of others who have opposing views.

I suppose there are extremists on either side and I'm sure many religious people are ashamed of some of the more militant religious stances displayed on this thread. But the other side are guilty too.


Can't we all just get along

(I know we can't...just saying is all)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bajer101

lukesmom wrote: »

Okay I've been thinking about this thread and I want to apologise to the OP.

1. For not reading all his posts properly and jumping to conclusions.
2. For continually going against him when it's actually HIS daughter and he came looking for advice.
3. For disagreeing with his reasoning when to be honest he was perfectly entitled to let his daughter make up her own mind.

Sorry.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

bajer101

amkin25 wrote: »

Why would i get quiet though i honestly haven't all night for this i have to be up early,but good luck with it man,sorry for any offence taken was only jarring you guys but i honestly don't believe it,i am a sceptic by nature and this story about 7 year olds making up their mind about God and Atheism,too much for my little brain and i don't buy it personally,unless someone is brainwashing the kid.

I resisted the urge to reply to your posts last night. With the greatest respect, your apology is not accepted. I've had to deal with a lot of people taking a pop at me and my daughter in this thread, but your posts were easily the most ignorant.

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

Google "in loco parentis" and come back to me.

You're again failing to grasp the simple facts. While 'in loco parentis' gives the teacher certain rights, it does not give anybody the right to force beliefs down the neck of a seven year old. It does not give anybody the right to impinge on anybodies civil liberties. In Ireland, it is treated more like a 'civil duty of care'.

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

Those blaming the particular school because it happens to be Catholic are the ones I have a problem with.
Complain to your local TD about lack of non denominational schools, dont complain to the school.

I think it's more the teachers than the school. 'You must believe in God' and 'We'll send you back to your old school' are acceptable reactions to a 7 year old expressing their beliefs? Are you serious?

Cabaal

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

More often then not we will all call Scientology a cult, but who are we to comment on it as a religion. Its no different to Mormons as its a pretty "modern" creation but yet Mormons get more respect.

Both beliefs have pretty silly stories attached to them and both stories were created by just one man,

Over the years I've heard a number of very religious individuals including nuns and priests refer to other religions as nonsense and false, I'd be very surprised if anyone growing up in good old catholic Ireland hadn't heard something like this also.

How can you have a fare playing field for religions when one of the ten commands of the christian faith is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"....this means instantly anyone basing their morals on these see's all other religions as false and meaningless.

Given the ten commandments are an important part of the catholic faith this means instantly religion classes teach that all other religions are not equal to the catholic faith, as they honor false gods.

Atheists on the other hand have no set down rules or guidelines to live your life by, there are no rules as such other then...you don't belief in a god. Anything after that is down to the individual, if they choose to belittle people or just say "sure that religion works for you but don't push it on me or my family" then thats upto that person.

fehenry

GreeBo wrote: »

The parent should have let the school know that the child themselves would be deciding on their religion, and that they didnt want the to be taught Catholicism if the child decided they didnt believe in God.
In that case the teacher would have been aware that this might come up.
For any other child that has been brought to the school as a Catholic, the teacher is right to tell them that they have to believe in God, as thats the parents wish.

I think it's the parents' responsibility to decide whether their children attend religious instruction classes or not. Thy make decisions on behalf of their children in every aspect of their lives so what makes religion or lack of same, an exception to the rule?

Presumably, the OP here has chosen the school she is now attending. In all probability, he also decides what clothes she wears, what food she eats, which children she plays with and so on and on- the list is endless.
So why leave it to her to make the most difficult decision of all?
Belief in God is an abstract concept, one that a child of seven is incapable of understanding..

It appears that the OP has reached an understanding with the school authorities. So in effect he has made the decision to not believe in God for her.
At least he is sending her a strong message that God doesn't exist by having her removed for religious instruction classes.
It's a case of “A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.”
I bet she will decide to go with the tide when the class starts preparing for First Communion and she finds she is being left out of the loop, as it were. As she gets older and develops the maturity to made an independent decision, she may well change her mind again.
Right now, he is in effect telling he that, while he doesn't believe in God, she is free to make up her own mind.
That's hardly the best way to enable her to decide for herself.

Red Nissan

fehenry wrote: »

That's hardly the best way to enable her to decide for herself.

I think it is vital. And to add, belief in a super being is one thing, religion is totally another.

Catholic teaching in particular, discourages this concept.

GreeBo

fehenry wrote: »

I think it's the parents' responsibility to decide whether their children attend religious instruction classes or not. Thy make decisions on behalf of their children in every aspect of their lives so what makes religion or lack of same, an exception to the rule?

Presumably, the OP here has chosen the school she is now attending. In all probability, he also decides what clothes she wears, what food she eats, which children she plays with and so on and on- the list is endless.
So why leave it to her to make the most difficult decision of all?
Belief in God is an abstract concept, one that a child of seven is incapable of understanding..

It appears that the OP has reached an understanding with the school authorities. So in effect he has made the decision to not believe in God for her.
At least he is sending her a strong message that God doesn't exist by having her removed for religious instruction classes.
It's a case of “A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.”
I bet she will decide to go with the tide when the class starts preparing for First Communion and she finds she is being left out of the loop, as it were. As she gets older and develops the maturity to made an independent decision, she may well change her mind again.
Right now, he is in effect telling he that, while he doesn't believe in God, she is free to make up her own mind.
That's hardly the best way to enable her to decide for herself.

100% agree.

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I think it's more the teachers than the school. 'You must believe in God' and 'We'll send you back to your old school' are acceptable reactions to a 7 year old expressing their beliefs? Are you serious?

No and I never stated or implied anything like that.

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

You're again failing to grasp the simple facts. While 'in loco parentis' gives the teacher certain rights, it does not give anybody the right to force beliefs down the neck of a seven year old. It does not give anybody the right to impinge on anybodies civil liberties. In Ireland, it is treated more like a 'civil duty of care'.

Again, the simple fact is that I didnt say it was.
The child was brought to the school as a catholic child, baptism and all.
There was never any mention by the parent that the child was free to decide their own religious fate.
The teacher, acting as the childs guardian is enforcing the implied religious decision, i.e. the child is to be raised as a Catholic.

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

No and I never stated or implied anything like that.

Why blame the school then?

GreeBo wrote: »

Again, the simple fact is that I didnt say it was.
The child was brought to the school as a catholic child, baptism and all.

Hmmm...this is getting tiresome. The child was clearly told, by her father, that she could believe whatever she wants. She clearly stated that she did not believe in God. The fact that she was baptised, is irrelevant. It does not make her a catholic.

GreeBo wrote: »

There was never any mention by the parent that the child was free to decide their own religious fate.

Re-read the OP, before you have to apologise AGAIN.

The teacher, acting as the childs guardian is enforcing the implied religious decision, i.e. the child is to be raised as a Catholic.

The teacher has NO RIGHT to enforce any religious doctrine on anybody. I'll repeat. No right, and certainly no right to be telling the child that she will be sent back to another school and that she MUST believe in God.

Can you not grasp that concept?? It's not that difficult.

bajer101

fehenry wrote: »

I think it's the parents' responsibility to decide whether their children attend religious instruction classes or not. Thy make decisions on behalf of their children in every aspect of their lives so what makes religion or lack of same, an exception to the rule?

What makes Religion different is that it is a belief system and no one has the right to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't believe in - not even a parent. Do you also think that a parent should tell a child what political viewpoint they should hold? Or is that perhaps too difficult a concept for a child to understand and would it be better to let them make their own mind up with they are able. Unlike the simple topic of Religion?

Presumably, the OP here has chosen the school she is now attending. In all probability, he also decides what clothes she wears, what food she eats, which children she plays with and so on and on- the list is endless.
So why leave it to her to make the most difficult decision of all?
Belief in God is an abstract concept, one that a child of seven is incapable of understanding..

We both decide what clothes she wears. We shop for her clothes together and she generally chooses what she wants. We both decide on what we eat. She decides what children she plays with.. and so on. While the list may be endless, I am sure you can see a pattern. And that is why I leave it to her to make one of the most difficult decision of all - is there a God and why I chose not to make that decision for her and have her indoctrinated in a Religion. She seems to be perfectly capable of understanding and has decided that she doesn't believe in God.

It appears that the OP has reached an understanding with the school authorities. So in effect he has made the decision to not believe in God for her.
At least he is sending her a strong message that God doesn't exist by having her removed for religious instruction classes.

Have you even read my OP? I reached an understanding with the school because SHE decided she didn't believe in God, which is the exact opposite of what you are arguing. You seem to think you are having an argument with someone else. Are you sure you are on the right thread?

It's a case of “A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.”
I bet she will decide to go with the tide when the class starts preparing for First Communion and she finds she is being left out of the loop, as it were. As she gets older and develops the maturity to made an independent decision, she may well change her mind again.
Right now, he is in effect telling he that, while he doesn't believe in God, she is free to make up her own mind.
That's hardly the best way to enable her to decide for herself.

It's a case of me allowing my daughter the freedom to form her own beliefs and then she did, I back her 100%. I very much doubt that she would change her mind about whether she believes in God based on a load of other kids getting dressed up and collecting money - a practice which seems to have very little to with educating kids about the possible existence of a supernatural creator.

I agree that as she gets older she may very well change her mind about God. She could have some spiritual experience or she could just alter her view for a different reason. And if that happens, she will have my support. The same way as she would have had my support if she had remained in the Educate Together school and decided that she believed in God based and wanted to make her Communion (which was the situation up to a couple of weeks ago).

I have told her I don't believe in God, but I also told her that her mother and sister do and that lots of other members of her family and lots of other people do. She has attended Mass with my mother and she has been told that she is absolutely free to make up her own mind and to decide for herself. As far as i am concerned, this is absolutely the best way to allow her to decide for herself. From what I can see, she is the only person in her class who is being allowed to decided for herself.

Dades

amkin25 wrote: »

vibe666 wrote: »

I'll bet you €10,000 right now that you are wrong.

I do know i am right so i'll take that bet where do you want to meet,can the Mods arrange these bets?

Good news everybody!

A&A beers is in Vegas this year!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79235840

vibe666

lukesmom wrote: »

Okay I've been thinking about this thread and I want to apologise to the OP.

1. For not reading all his posts properly and jumping to conclusions.
2. For continually going against him when it's actually HIS daughter and he came looking for advice.
3. For disagreeing with his reasoning when to be honest he was perfectly entitled to let his daughter make up her own mind.

Sorry.

This is genuinely brilliant lukesmom, you've made me smile.

cake and biscuits for everyone!

GreeBo

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Why blame the school then?

I blamed the school?

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Hmmm...this is getting tiresome. The child was clearly told, by her father, that she could believe whatever she wants. She clearly stated that she did not believe in God. The fact that she was baptised, is irrelevant. It does not make her a catholic.
Re-read the OP, before you have to apologise AGAIN.

Tiresome indeed.
The school was clearly brought a child as a Catholic to a Catholic school. They school actually checked to see that the child had been baptised.
They didnt check to see if that was a meaningless baptism done for the mother or that the father was an atheist or that the child was making up their own minds on religion. If you honestly believe that they should have done this we arent going to get very far.

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

The teacher has NO RIGHT to enforce any religious doctrine on anybody. I'll repeat. No right, and certainly no right to be telling the child that she will be sent back to another school and that she MUST believe in God.

Can you not grasp that concept?? It's not that difficult.

The teacher will naturally try to instill the beliefs of the parent. In this instance the school, wrongly, believed that the parent had brought their believing in God, christened as a Catholic child to a Catholic school to be taught as a Catholic.
Its indeed not a difficult concept. To expect the school to not teach the child as a Catholic and try to enforce the Catholic beliefs is irrational. Why wouldnt they try to instill the beliefs that the child was delivered to them with?
They were enforcing the beliefs that they believed the parents wanted instilled in the child. They had no reason on earth to think anything different. They went to the bother of not just assuming the child was Catholic, but confirming the baptism of the child.

bajer101

GreeBo wrote: »

The teacher will naturally try to instill the beliefs of the parent. In this instance the school, wrongly, believed that the parent had brought their believing in God, christened as a Catholic child to a Catholic school to be taught as a Catholic.
Its indeed not a difficult concept. To expect the school to not teach the child as a Catholic and try to enforce the Catholic beliefs is irrational. Why wouldnt they try to instill the beliefs that the child was delivered to them with?
They were enforcing the beliefs that they believed the parents wanted instilled in the child. They had no reason on earth to think anything different. They went to the bother of not just assuming the child was Catholic, but confirming the baptism of the child.

Listen, you're defending the indefensible. You are trying to twist the argument away from what the problem was - which is quite simple. I had a problem with the teacher telling my daughter that if she said one more time that she didn't believe in God that she would be sent back to her old school, and I had a problem with the Principal saying to my daughter that she had to believe in God. That's it.

lukesmom

vibe666 wrote: »

This is genuinely brilliant lukesmom, you've made me smile.

cake and biscuits for everyone!

I'll make some Mars Krispy squares

PopePalpatine

Mark Tapley wrote: »

You sound like you're from the school of children should be seen and not heard.

I think their alma mater also includes Sean Brady. :mad:

ash23

bajer101 wrote: »

Listen, you're defending the indefensible. You are trying to twist the argument away from what the problem was - which is quite simple. I had a problem with the teacher telling my daughter that if she said one more time that she didn't believe in God that she would be sent back to her old school, and I had a problem with the Principal saying to my daughter that she had to believe in God. That's it.

I thought the principle said "you have to believe in god" in context of making her communion?

Did you discuss what was actually said by the teacher and principle when you met them?

I ask because I have a daughter myself and know that while she doesn't lie, everything she says is usually true but said very selectively, exaggerated or misheard......sometimes all three.

I tend to take most things she says were said with a large pinch of salt and an open mind to be honest and I'd usually try to get the full context from her or the other person before taking it as fact.

uck51js9zml2yt

bajer101 wrote: »

Listen, you're defending the indefensible. You are trying to twist the argument away from what the problem was - which is quite simple. I had a problem with the teacher telling my daughter that if she said one more time that she didn't believe in God that she would be sent back to her old school, and I had a problem with the Principal saying to my daughter that she had to believe in God. That's it.

That's a fair point but did you as the legal guardian tell the school you were not Catholics. If you did tell them then it's only fair but if you didn't then they would just go with the religion noted on the baptism cert.
Threatening to return her to her old school irrespective of what happened is out of order though.
I've just been over to the local school to register the baby and confirm my eldest place next year. I was asked for a baptismal cert. When I said we weren't Catholic I was told it's only for communion preparation and not an issue.
We are Christian so will need to decide what level of Catholic religious education we want our sons exposed to.

bajer101

ash23 wrote: »

I thought the principle said "you have to believe in god" in context of making her communion?

Did you discuss what was actually said by the teacher and principle when you met them?

I ask because I have a daughter myself and know that while she doesn't lie, everything she says is usually true but said very selectively, exaggerated or misheard......sometimes all three.

I tend to take most things she says were said with a large pinch of salt and an open mind to be honest and I'd usually try to get the full context from her or the other person before taking it as fact.

I said that I was of the opinion that the Principal may have said she had to believe in God in relation to making the Communion. I didn't want to push my daughter too hard on the word for word details of the conversation. When I met with the Principal she was defensive about not saying that she had to believe in God and started mentioning witnesses, (she might have been worried that I was going to take further action), but I had no interest in getting bogged down in all that as I just wanted to get the issue resolved as quickly painlessly as possible.

While my daughter could easily have misinterpreted what was said by the Principal, there is no way she fibbed, or exaggerated what she said the teacher said. Being threatened with the return to her old school is not something that she could misinterpret or exaggerate about. I didn't bring that up with the Principal either, and neither did she. I felt that it was enough to have mentioned it in an email and then get the opt-out sorted. A full blown argument wouldn't have achieved anything.

fehenry

bajer101 wrote: »

What makes Religion different is that it is a belief system and no one has the right to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't believe in - not even a parent. Do you also think that a parent should tell a child what political viewpoint they should hold? Or is that perhaps too difficult a concept for a child to understand and would it be better to let them make their own mind up with they are able. Unlike the simple topic of Religion?



We both decide what clothes she wears. We shop for her clothes together and she generally chooses what she wants. We both decide on what we eat. She decides what children she plays with.. and so on. While the list may be endless, I am sure you can see a pattern. And that is why I leave it to her to make one of the most difficult decision of all - is there a God and why I chose not to make that decision for her and have her indoctrinated in a Religion. She seems to be perfectly capable of understanding and has decided that she doesn't believe in God.



Have you even read my OP? I reached an understanding with the school because SHE decided she didn't believe in God, which is the exact opposite of what you are arguing. You seem to think you are having an argument with someone else. Are you sure you are on the right thread?



It's a case of me allowing my daughter the freedom to form her own beliefs and then she did, I back her 100%. I very much doubt that she would change her mind about whether she believes in God based on a load of other kids getting dressed up and collecting money - a practice which seems to have very little to with educating kids about the possible existence of a supernatural creator.

I agree that as she gets older she may very well change her mind about God. She could have some spiritual experience or she could just alter her view for a different reason. And if that happens, she will have my support. The same way as she would have had my support if she had remained in the Educate Together school and decided that she believed in God based and wanted to make her Communion (which was the situation up to a couple of weeks ago).

I have told her I don't believe in God, but I also told her that her mother and sister do and that lots of other members of her family and lots of other people do. She has attended Mass with my mother and she has been told that she is absolutely free to make up her own mind and to decide for herself. As far as i am concerned, this is absolutely the best way to allow her to decide for herself. From what I can see, she is the only person in her class who is being allowed to decided for herself.

As a matter of fact, I did read your first post but I also read the response to my first contribution where the poster (Mark Tapley) told me the issue had been resolved.
As I saw nothing from you since to dispute that, I think it was reasonable that he was telling the truth. I have no problems with your decision that your daughter should not receive religious education but I don't think you are allowing her a free choice either.

You say, “We both decide what clothes she wears. We shop for her clothes together and she generally chooses what she wants. We both decide on what we eat. She decides what children she plays with.. and so on. While the list may be endless, I am sure you can see a pattern.”

I notice you use the word “we” a lot. You make joint decisions on every basic aspect of life, yet you feel you should leave the decision to her to decide if she believes in God or not.
A child can see, say, a dress or a toy or an ice cream or anything that she can see or smell or taste.
Belief in God is a concept not a tangible object. I never yet heard of a 7 year old who can understand abstract concepts.
If she arrives home someday and tells you that she wants to drink or smoke or go on an overnight with children you don't approve of, what would your reaction be?

bajer101

Lennon Kind Snotty wrote: »

That's a fair point but did you as the legal guardian tell the school you were not Catholics. If you did tell them then it's only fair but if you didn't then they would just go with the religion noted on the baptism cert.
Threatening to return her to her old school irrespective of what happened is out of order though.
I've just been over to the local school to register the baby and confirm my eldest place next year. I was asked for a baptismal cert. When I said we weren't Catholic I was told it's only for communion preparation and not an issue.
We are Christian so will need to decide what level of Catholic religious education we want our sons exposed to.

I'm an atheist, but that's irrelevant. My daughter was Catholic and I was happy enough with her being taught Religion. But then she announced that she didn't believe in God and things changed.

bajer101

fehenry wrote: »

As a matter of fact, I did read your first post but I also read the response to my first contribution where the poster (Mark Tapley) told me the issue had been resolved.
As I saw nothing from you since to dispute that, I think it was reasonable that he was telling the truth. I have no problems with your decision that your daughter should not receive religious education but I don't think you are allowing her a free choice either.

You say, “We both decide what clothes she wears. We shop for her clothes together and she generally chooses what she wants. We both decide on what we eat. She decides what children she plays with.. and so on. While the list may be endless, I am sure you can see a pattern.”

I notice you use the word “we” a lot. You make joint decisions on every basic aspect of life, yet you feel you should leave the decision to her to decide if she believes in God or not.
A child can see, say, a dress or a toy or an ice cream or anything that she can see or smell or taste.
Belief in God is a concept not a tangible object. I never yet heard of a 7 year old who can understand abstract concepts.
If she arrives home someday and tells you that she wants to drink or smoke or go on an overnight with children you don't approve of, what would your reaction be?

I don't know how much more of a free choice I can give her by having her learn about all the major Religions in the world and also about Atheism and then telling her she can make her own mind up. Are you trying to say that I should forcible indoctrinate her in a Religion, and that would actually be giving her more of a free choice?

I said "We" a lot in response to your assumption that it was I who made all the decisions regarding other aspects of her life - which I don't. There's just the two of us so I think it's perfectly natural that I ask her opinion on what she'd like for dinner etc. I don't know what point you're trying to make about the association between this and her deciding for herself whether she beliefs in God. In fact, I think you are just arguing for the sake of it, because the point you are trying to argue here, is the exact opposite of the point you tried to argue when you made the assumption that I decided what clothes she wears.

As for what my reaction would be if she arrived home as a child and said she wanted to smoke or drink, what do you think it would be? And what has that got to do with my allowing her to decide for herself whether or not she believes in God?

When you can explain to me how indoctrinating a child in a Religion is giving them more of a free choice than allowing them to make up their own mind, I will reply to you. Until then, I'm not bothering entertaining you any further.

GreeBo

bajer101 wrote: »

Listen, you're defending the indefensible. You are trying to twist the argument away from what the problem was - which is quite simple. I had a problem with the teacher telling my daughter that if she said one more time that she didn't believe in God that she would be sent back to her old school, and I had a problem with the Principal saying to my daughter that she had to believe in God. That's it.

No, you are ignoring the fact that the discussion has moved onto what the/any teacher should have done.
Your issue is resolved now, you dont need to keep thrashing over it.

GreeBo

bajer101 wrote: »

I'm an atheist, but that's irrelevant. My daughter was Catholic and I was happy enough with her being taught Religion. But then she announced that she didn't believe in God and things changed.

Your daughter was catholic, how are the school supposed to know that they are supposed to look to her for advice on her education?
She is 7.
Should they also ask her how she feels about learning other subjects?
SEVEN.

Otacon

GreeBo wrote: »

Should they also ask her how she feels about learning other subjects?
SEVEN.

Since when does learning a subject involve changing your beliefs?

bajer101

GreeBo wrote: »

No, you are ignoring the fact that the discussion has moved onto what the/any teacher should have done.
Your issue is resolved now, you dont need to keep thrashing over it.

GreeBo wrote: »

Your daughter was catholic, how are the school supposed to know that they are supposed to look to her for advice on her education?
She is 7.
Should they also ask her how she feels about learning other subjects?
SEVEN.

Oh I see what this is about now. Yesterday you made the incorrect assumption that I had a previous conversation with my daughter where she told me she didn't believe in God and that I should have informed the school of this. You were told time after time that this is not what happened, but you just ignored that and kept at it until eventually you had to acknowledge the facts and you gave me a half-hearted apology followed by - "but I am still right". Not able to let that go, you are now continuing with that debate to try and prove that you were right in your incorrect scenario so that you can somehow feel vindicated. Best of luck with that. But seeing as you are trying to have a debate that has nothing to do with my scenario, I'll bow out.

Red Nissan

bajer101 wrote: »

I'll bow out.

Thanks and well done again, say Hi to your daughter for me too.

Dades

GreeBo wrote: »

Your daughter was catholic, how are the school supposed to know that they are supposed to look to her for advice on her education?
She is 7.
Should they also ask her how she feels about learning other subjects?
SEVEN.

Who are you even arguing with now?

The OP was unhappy with the initial reactions by the teacher and the principal to something the child said. This was resolved after discussion with both, and a civilised agreement was reached.

Now you're still here saying stuff like "how are the school supposed to know that they are supposed to look to her for advice on her education?" What sort of after-the-fact nonsense is this? You must know the actual facts by now so it appears you're determined to find some crumb of blame to earn some cheap point.

Morag

bajer101 both mine are unbaptised and attended RC primary school, be clear with the prinicpal and teacher, every time mine had a change of teacher I made a point of going in meeting the teacher and explaining they were not even christian and were to be exempt, as I could not be sure the information would be passed on.

I thought mine about the many different religions of the world and let them know they have a choice to have what ever religion they want or none as they get older. It's hard on them being made 'other' in the class room, but give your daughter the self confidence she needs and the reassurance and she will be fine.

vibe666

lukesmom wrote: »

I'll make some Mars Krispy squares

I make wicked ones myself, except i can't stop eating them once i've made them, so i try and avid it unless its a big occasion where most of them will be gobbled up before i can get to them!

(this may be a separate discussion though!).

we may just have to make you an honorary agnostic theist at this rate and get you a membership form.

Cabaal

vibe666 wrote: »

I make wicked ones myself, except i can't stop eating them once i've made them, so i try and avid it unless its a big occasion where most of them will be gobbled up before i can get to them!

(this may be a separate discussion though!).

we may just have to make you an honorary agnostic theist at this rate and get you a membership form.

ah lads, rocky road is where its at,
Just so nice

IITYWYBMAD

Originally Posted by GreeBo:
There was never any mention by the parent that the child was free to decide their own religious fate.

are you still claiming this or are you going to apologise? I see that you left it out when previously selectively responding to my points.

IITYWYBMAD

bajer101 wrote: »

Oh I see what this is about now. Yesterday you made the incorrect assumption that I had a previous conversation with my daughter where she told me she didn't believe in God and that I should have informed the school of this. You were told time after time that this is not what happened, but you just ignored that and kept at it until eventually you had to acknowledge the facts and you gave me a half-hearted apology followed by - "but I am still right". Not able to let that go, you are now continuing with that debate to try and prove that you were right in your incorrect scenario so that you can somehow feel vindicated. Best of luck with that. But seeing as you are trying to have a debate that has nothing to do with my scenario, I'll bow out.

Modus Operandi tbh

vibe666

Dades wrote: »

Who are you even arguing with now?

Now you're still here saying stuff like "how are the school supposed to know that they are supposed to look to her for advice on her education?" What sort of after-the-fact nonsense is this? You must know the actual facts by now so it appears you're determined to find some crumb of blame to earn some cheap point.

as far as I can tell, GreeBo doesn't seem to think that a child has the right to choose their own religious beliefs without a psychic parent informing their school in advance that they *may* change their mind at some stage during their formal education prior to them actually changing their minds.

he doesn't seem to think that the irish constitution guarantees her an education in any school in the state (if that school receives state funding) regardless of her religious background, or the religious ethos of the school without fear of religious persecution, or the lengthy and very comprehensive EU legislation covering inalienable basic human rights for children (and adults), OR (presumably) the UN convention on the rights of the child that also guarantee those same rights, are somehow NOT applicable to a 7 year old, whereas the majority (as far as I can tell) of the other posters here (including the OP) believe that not only should she should be free to make up her own mind on the matter, that her rights guarantee it and that the teacher does not have the right to force any religious instruction on her under any circumstances, whatever she may believe herself, or the ethos of the school, since it's currently 2014 and not 1914.

unless he's changed his mind?

lynski

fehenry wrote: »

Belief in God is a concept not a tangible object. I never yet heard of a 7 year old who can understand abstract concepts.
?

I find this hilarious and so sad. A seven yr old is old enough to commit to communion but not to understand the abstract concept of belief?
I have a five yr old who can deal with the concept of god, space, multiple dimensions, different belief systems, etc. my seven yr old creates worlds in minecraft and understands the basic physics of that as well as the concept of inter dimensional portals, multi belief systems and deities, etc. they are not extraordinary to anyone but our families.
the idea that they would or could struggle with abstract concepts it tosh.
If it were so religions would not bother with children until
They reached their teens.