Daughter forced to believe in God

vibe666

hinault wrote: »

The parents of pupils appear to accept, as you put it, the status quo.

try and get your kid into an ET school and you'll find out differently, you won't get near one in Dublin unless your children are registered years in advance of actually needing a place even though they are only multi-denominational rather than non-denominational, for any child without a baptismal cert, they are pretty much the only option.

the "status quo" is unfair to all children in the state, not to mention illegal under EU law and the Irish constitution for state funded schools and it HAS to change.

hinault

vibe666 wrote: »

try and get your kid into an ET school and you'll find out differently, you won't get near one in Dublin unless your children are registered years in advance of actually needing a place even though they are only multi-denominational rather than non-denominational, for any child without a baptismal cert, they are pretty much the only option.

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

Gumbi

hinault wrote: »

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

Like I said earlier, it shouldn't matter. Whether there is a Catholic majority or minority in the country.

On the other, I think it's also a matter of the Irish psyche - we know there's a problem but we pretend it's not there. Like the non-Catholic allowing their child to be confirmed etc. rationalising "ah sher it'll do no harm".

bajer101

hinault wrote: »

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

So there is no demand for non-Catholic ethos schools? I must have imagined the double decker prefabs that the Educate Together school near me have had to build to meet demand. We are seeing the the non-Catholic schools being built which proves that there is a demand. Most of the new schools being built are non-Catholic!

But the problem is with the pre-existing Catholic schools where parents have no choice. I started this thread to ask for advice about a problem I experienced. You suggested that I move her to a different school. I live in Dublin 13, and she is in second class. Would you care to suggest which school I should move her to? Bear in mind that I am a single parent who works full time.

hinault

Gumbi wrote: »

Like I said earlier, it shouldn't matter. Whether there is a Catholic majority or minority in the country.

On the other, I think it's also a matter of the Irish psyche - we know there's a problem but we pretend it's not there. Like the non-Catholic allowing their child to be confirmed etc. rationalising "ah sher it'll do no harm".

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

vibe666

hinault wrote: »

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

you don't appear to know anything at all.

As I have already pointed out, there IS a demand for non-catholic schools and they ARE being built, just not fast enough, despite that extremely high demand and I'm afraid that your ignorance of the facts isn't going to change the reality of it.

http://www.herald.ie/news/calls-for-new-irish-school-as-waiting-list-overflowing-30517663.html

Meanwhile, Luke O'Shaughnessy, the spokesperson for the Educate Together schools, said that some of its schools in Dublin, "receive up to five times the number of children's names than they can actually accommodate with school places each year.

"Given the high demand, families tend to put their children's names on waiting lists very early" he said.

"We've heard anecdotal evidence of parents registering their child's name with the local Educate Together school right after the child's birth," he said.

He said that the "welcome opening of six new Educate Together schools this September will not be enough to meet the rising demand for multi-denominational school places in Ireland, and additional provision is badly needed".

He said that the Department of Education has acknowledged that there is need for an Educate Together primary school in 25 areas around Ireland.

"Educate Together's own evidence from requests to its offices and schools and from public census and survey data would double that figure," he said.

FUN FACT of the day, did you know that 50% of current ET students are actually Catholic?

hinault wrote: »

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

England is not secular, it is Protestant Christian and that is *officially*, not just my opinion.

bajer101

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

Same reason I was sent to a private Jesuit school. Nothing to do with a desire for Catholic religious indoctrination, but more to do with the private nature of these schools and better resources and exam results. I believe that demand for Eton is fairly high too.

vibe666

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

what's that got to do with anything? how do you explain the price of cheese in Switzerland?

We are in Ireland talking about the Irish education system.

shruikan2553

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

Racial segregation. Do you really think they are all just wanting a bit of Catholicism?


In terms of Ireland people can think there is a demand for whatever they like, it doesn't trump another persons rights.

realdanbreen

vibe666 wrote: »

so only 10% of child sex abuse in ireland is carried out by the clergy? . :rolleyes:

Correct. In fact less than that AFAIK. It's amazing what you learn when you actually check the facts and dig a little deeper than page 1 of the tabloids.

Gumbi

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

I don't. It's another country and not my concern. I think religious schools should be private anyways.

hinault

bajer101 wrote: »

But the problem is with the pre-existing Catholic schools where parents have no choice. I started this thread to ask for advice about a problem I experienced. You suggested that I move her to a different school. I live in Dublin 13, and she is in second class. Would you care to suggest which school I should move her to? Bear in mind that I am a single parent who works full time.

It would appear that there are several options proximate to Dublin 13.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools/county/?county=Fingal

hinault

bajer101 wrote: »

Same reason I was sent to a private Jesuit school. Nothing to do with a desire for Catholic religious indoctrination, but more to do with the private nature of these schools and better resources and exam results. I believe that demand for Eton is fairly high too.

It was your parents/legal guardians decision to send you to the school that you ended up attending, for whatever reason they may have had in mind.

hinault

vibe666 wrote: »

what's that got to do with anything?.

It shows that even where there is the widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education, more and more parents are choosing to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

bajer101

realdanbreen wrote: »

Correct. In fact less than that AFAIK. It's amazing what you learn when you actually check the facts and dig a little deeper than page 1 of the tabloids.

Considering that the clergy constitute less than 0.1% of the population and that they are responsible for 10% of child abuse, that means that they are more than 100 times more likely to abuse a child than a non clergy member. So what's your point?

bajer101

hinault wrote: »

It would appear that there are several options proximate to Dublin 13.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools/county/?county=Fingal

They're all full with huge waiting lists. You said I should send my daughter to a different school. I ask you again - where should I send her?

hinault wrote: »

It was your parents/legal guardians decision to send you to the school that you ended up attending, for whatever reason they may have had in mind.

The reason they had in mind was as I said - private school with better exam results - the same reason that private schools in England and the US are popular. Nothing to do with Catholicism.

vibe666

hinault wrote: »

It shows that even where there is the widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education, more and more parents are choosing to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

No it doesn't, it shows that people in the UK want to send their kids to schools with good exam results.

Or do you think significant numbers of non-Catholic English people are rushing out to get their kids indoctrinated into the Catholic faith because they randomly decided that they want them to become Catholics?

Yeah, that must be it.

beauf

I think ye are all going widely off topic.

if the teacher and/or principle decide to go against your wishes what you can you realistically do. What are Teachers or Principles obliged to adhere to. Who enforces these.

beauf

vibe666 wrote: »

No it doesn't, it shows that people in the UK want to send their kids to schools with good exam results...

Why do these schools have better results?

Gumbi

beauf wrote: »

Why do these schools have better results?

Probably because they are private.

vibe666

They are obliged to follow the Irish constitution that guarantees every child an education without religious indoctrination.

Complaints go in the order of: to the teacher (unless it is about them) > the principle (unless about them) > school management board > the ETB.

Chimichangas

bajer101 wrote:

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

bajer101 wrote:

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

it sounds like you didn't talk to the principal, teachers before school started to say that your daughter is not catholic, is atheist, or is being asked to make up her own mind in later life. but you knew it was a catholic school? teacher may have misunderstood the situation as a consequence, I would hope anyway.
see if u can resolve the misunderstanding, or else rethink the situation u found yourself in.

unkel

vibe666 wrote: »

As I have already pointed out, there IS a demand for non-catholic schools and they ARE being built, just not fast enough, despite that extremely high demand

+1

From your quote:

"We've heard anecdotal evidence of parents registering their child's name with the local Educate Together school right after the child's birth," he said.

I can confirm this.

My 3 children all attend a popular local ET school. All 3 were registered pretty much as soon as we had their birth certs and our middle child still nearly did not make it into the school (she only got in because someone higher on the list, who had already accepted the place and paid the enrolment fee, cancelled 2 days before the school year started)

Chimichangas

you should have made your wishes known to the school before it started.
and I would hope the teachers reaction was just a foolish mistake due to not knowing the circumstances.
but you should talk or have talked to the teacher too to get their version, u did say your daughter is 7?

bajer101 wrote:

I also explained to my daughter that she no longer has take part in any Religious education, but that there is no need for her to tell anyone that she doesn't believe in God - that it's none of their business. Hopefully the next stage will just be how the school arranges this. I have a few age appropriate science books ordered from Amazon that she can read if she has to stay in the class while the others are taught Religion. I'd like to think that it will be sorted reasonably, but the way this has been dealt with so far leads me to suspect that her teacher mightn't like this turn of events. But now that the school are aware of my wishes, if there is the slightest hint of any discriminatory treatment I will take whatever action is necessary.

and now you are happy for her to be an atheist at 7?

Gumbi

A 7 year old doesn't even understand the issue of atheism or theism and branding children children as believers/unbelievers is counter productive in my opinion.

vibe666

Chimichangas wrote: »

and now you are happy for her to be an atheist at 7?

Everyone is born an atheist, that only changes with indoctrination into a given religion, or in later life, at their own choosing.

The OP has simply decided to let her decide for herself when she is old enough to do so, rather than have her pushed into a particular religion.

Chimichangas

vibe666 wrote: »

Everyone is born an atheist, that only changes with indoctrination into a given religion, or in later life, at their own choosing.

The OP has simply decided to let her decide for herself when she is old enough to do so, rather than have her pushed into a particular religion.

Everyone is born an atheist? I dont know that. I dont remember.

But it sounds to me like this 7 year old knows what she doesnt believe in, with quite the atheist viewpoint. No indoctrination?

Peregrinus

vibe666 wrote: »

Everyone is born an atheist . . .

Hold on. You thank Gumbi for his post which says that branding children as unbelievers is counterproductive, and then you immediately post this?

Confused much?

Cabaal

Chimichangas wrote: »

and now you are happy for her to be an atheist at 7?

and your happy for other 7 year olds to believe in any number of gods from the start within given the opportunity and encouragement to make up their own mind as they get older like the op is allowing?

vibe666

Peregrinus wrote: »

Hold on. You thank Gumbi for his post which says that branding children as believers OR unbelievers is counterproductive, and then you immediately post this?

Confused much?

not at all. I can agree with Gumbi's sentiment without ignoring the simple fact that at birth everyone is born with no knowledge or belief in any god(s).

pedant much?

also, FYP.

realdanbreen

bajer101 wrote: »

Considering that the clergy constitute less than 0.1% of the population and that they are responsible for 10% of child abuse, that means that they are more than 100 times more likely to abuse a child than a non clergy member. So what's your point?

Do you want me to break it down so you can understand? Less than 5% of clergy were involved in sex abuse.. By your figures less than 0.1% of the population are clergymen. Therefore, less than 5% of less than 0.1 % of the population were abusing. Like I say don't always follow the mob attitude that the tabloids stir up.

beauf

bajer101 wrote: »

...

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Have you done this

vibe666 wrote: »

They are obliged to follow the Irish constitution that guarantees every child an education without religious indoctrination.

Complaints go in the order of: to the teacher (unless it is about them) > the principle (unless about them) > school management board > the ETB.

What has been the outcome thus far?

Has anyone any experience where an ETB / board has acted on the foot of a complaint of this nature, and a teacher/principle have changed their policies as a result.

Cabaal

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do you want me to break it down so you can understand? Less than 5% of clergy were involved in sex abuse.. By your figures less than 0.1% of the population are clergymen. Therefore, less than 5% of less than 0.1 % of the population were abusing. Like I say don't always follow the mob attitude that the tabloids stir up.

You do understand that it is not simply the abusing of children that disgusts the general Irish population right?

Its the fact that the Vatican had guidelines in place to a: silence the victims and b: move the abuser to another area. They didn't stop the priests from interacting with children, they simply ignored the problem and hoped for the best by moving them around to get the heat off of them.

Then when all the abuse victims spoke out the Vatican sent over people who called the abuse victims liars and told them they were only in it for the money.

The Catholic church in Ireland & the Vatican also stone walled them and the Goverment at every turn when it comes to releasing of records and being up front about what happened. The Vatican continues to refuse to co-operate and release files to a UN Investigation.

Finally we have only to look at the lovely treatment of Brady to see that the Vatican have no problem with a man who followed the Vatican's guidelines of swearing victims to silence and then did not notify the Irish State authority's about the sexual abuse that took place.

Bottom line out of all of this is the Catholic church only has one thing in mind when it comes to children and the church....the children are not the priority and they never have been, the church is number 1 and trying to keep its image takes priority above people and even laws that exist in country's such as Ireland.

lazygal

And the church insured itself against abuse claims years before it claimed to know what was happening. Not to mention the mental reservations and swearing children to secrecy.

Irishcrx

It's a difficult one , but I wouldn't say you are alone out there. This is now a modern day problem in Ireland with the majority of primary schools still being very catholic orientated. I'd be the same as you in my beliefs and my son is two , I'm very cautious in how I want to approach religion with him when the time comes but like yourself I want him to come to his own decision when he is old enough to understand all the facts that come with it, but he won't be able to do that at a young age and B I don't want religion forced down his throat either.

It comes with a social 'acceptance' in terms in comminion and comfirmation , I don't want him to be excluded from these thing's either and be the odd one out. His mother is religious so I have asked her to deal with the religion aspect and then hopefully when he is older and asks me what I belief I can be open and honest with him.

As for your daughter, I would take her out of the school and try and find a multi culutre school locally if that is at all possible , she is clearly upset where she is and I don't think argueing with the school will get you anywhere.

They are a catholic school and will insist all children attending practice the faith, it's very black and white with them they believe they are right and you are wrong regardless of what day and age we now live in.

Good luck.

vibe666

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do you want me to break it down so you can understand? Less than 5% of clergy were involved in sex abuse.. By your figures less than 0.1% of the population are clergymen. Therefore, less than 5% of less than 0.1 % of the population were abusing. Like I say don't always follow the mob attitude that the tabloids stir up.

you don't seem to follow the basic rules of mathematics either do you?

lukesmom

It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.

vibe666

lukesmom wrote: »

It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.

you really do need to make even a tiny bit of effort to read threads before making ignorant, uninformed comments in them.

rainbow kirby

beauf wrote: »

Why do these schools have better results?

Undercurrent of racism and snobbery - Catholic schools tend to have a higher proportion of white British/Irish/European pupils and a much lower proportion of pupils from lower income backgrounds (free school meals etc) compared to state and CoE schools.

Cabaal

lukesmom wrote: »

It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.

What????, you mean people can't change their mind and leave a religion? How dare they use their apparently "god given free will" to choose how they raise their children!
:rolleyes:

I think you'll find alot can happen between a child getting baptised at say 1-6 months and the child being 6 or 7. People grow and change, people change faiths or change to non faith...all perfectly normal, legal and you'd want to get off your high horse when condemning such people.

I feel more sorry for the large amount of people that blindly baptise their children and then bitch and moan about having to bring them to mass when it comes to the communion stuff. People shouldn't find it a burden to do such a thing...people should be happy to goto mass on a Sunday, the fact that they don't like it says alot about their apparent "faith".

Delirium

lukesmom wrote: »

It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.

Best pass that message on to the rest of parents of Ireland. Be a lot of empty schools if we applied that rule.

GreeBo

bajer101 wrote: »

Yeah. I sent the Principal an email explaining the situation. I kept the tone of the email very conciliatory and just basically said that my daughter would not be making her Communion and that she was to be excluded from all Religious education. I explained all the reasons behind this decision and was in no way aggressive or adversarial. I haven't received a reply yet.

I also explained to my daughter that she no longer has take part in any Religious education, but that there is no need for her to tell anyone that she doesn't believe in God - that it's none of their business. Hopefully the next stage will just be how the school arranges this. I have a few age appropriate science books ordered from Amazon that she can read if she has to stay in the class while the others are taught Religion. I'd like to think that it will be sorted reasonably, but the way this has been dealt with so far leads me to suspect that her teacher mightn't like this turn of events. But now that the school are aware of my wishes, if there is the slightest hint of any discriminatory treatment I will take whatever action is necessary.

The situation is further complicated by having to inform her mother about this. While she lives in a different country and hasn't seen her in almost three years, I was obliged to tell her about all this today. Although I have sole custody, mothers cannot have guardian rights removed (except in cases of adoption), so that adds another layer of complexity to the situation. Guardian's have a say over a child's Religious upbringing and she is a born again Christian so I'm expecting this to be used against me.

I'll update this thread with what happens.

So you informed the school *after* the incident?

vibe666

GreeBo wrote: »

So you informed the school *after* the incident?

yes he did, but what's your point?

even if i was a fully paid up member of the god squad, I'd be VERY unhappy about a teacher telling my child she HAD to believe in god and threatening to send her back to her old school if she didn't, as I think any half decent parent should, religious or not.

lazygal

Suppose the father and daughter had converted to Islam over the summer holiday and the school decided to take it upon itself to tell a child they would have to follow catholicism instead of the new faith or there would be serious consequences?

GreeBo

bajer101 wrote: »

Considering that the clergy constitute less than 0.1% of the population and that they are responsible for 10% of child abuse, that means that they are more than 100 times more likely to abuse a child than a non clergy member. So what's your point?

No, it means that the clergy are responsible for 10% of child abuse, thats it.

Your "fact" states that if I became a priest tomorrow I would suddenly be 100 times more likely to abuse someone, thats tosh.

DeltaWhite

OP, I'm a bit late to this thread but I just want to say I commend you 100% for how you've handled this situation. You are completely in your right and I think your daughter is very lucky to have a Father like you.

People will always throw in their 2 cents whether they are right or wrong and the one thing I despise most in this world - is religion. I have my own reasons that I wont be explaining to anyone, but just know that there are many religious nuts out there who believe all the things that I dont - and they are entitled to. Same as you are entitled to not believe it and I think it's very fortunate that you have encouraged your daughter to think for herself.

One thing I do not appreciate is how these religious people try and push their ways onto others in what I describe as an aggressive way i.e "well I'm right and you're wrong" crap. I'm happy to believe what I want and I dont try and force that onto other people. My way is my way and I'm happy to live my life like that.

Well done in your approach so far anyway OP, I just wanted to offer you some support.

GreeBo

vibe666 wrote: »

yes he did, but what's your point?

even if i was a fully paid up member of the god squad, I'd be VERY unhappy about a teacher telling my child she HAD to believe in god and threatening to send her back to her old school if she didn't, as I think any half decent parent should, religious or not.

The point is that if you send your child to a *Catholic* school and dont tell them that your child wants no part of what school is based on and believes in, you should bloody tell them rather than go crazy when they apply the same teachings to your child that the school is based on.
Its hardly rocket science tbh.

The teacher told the child not to say it again, where was the "HAD to believe in God" aspect?

Do you think you could send your child to an Islamic school and it would be cool and the gang for your child to state that Muhammed doesnt exist?

GreeBo

SW wrote: »

Best pass that message on to the rest of parents of Ireland. Be a lot of empty schools if we applied that rule.

and thats the schools fault how exactly?

Delirium

GreeBo wrote: »

and thats the schools fault how exactly?

where did I suggest it was the schools fault?

GreeBo

SW wrote: »

where did I suggest it was the schools fault?

This entire thread suggests it.
If you send your child to a Catholic School, for whatever reason, you cannot blame the school for being Catholic and teaching about Catholicism.