Daughter forced to believe in God

shruikan2553

EunanMac wrote: »

You don't think a parent should inform the school their child is not a Catholic, and wait until she is taught Catholicism to complain ?

The OP said she didnt care if she was taught about Catholicism

EunanMac

SW wrote: »

The poster didn't care if the child was taught religion, so why would they have to inform the school of anything? The problem is the unprofessional behaviour of the staff when the child voiced her lack of belief in God.

So if that were true, why not tell them to change their unprofessional behaviour, rather than not teach her religion ?

EunanMac

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The OP said she didnt care if she was taught about Catholicism

Until she was . . .

shruikan2553

EunanMac wrote: »

Until she was . . .

I recommend reading the thread again. Even just the posts by the OP

bajer101

EunanMac wrote: »

So you didn't care if they taught her religion or not, or didn't inform the school of same,

Correct. I initially wasn't that bothered. She had previously attended an Educate Together school, which is multi-denominational and she learned about lots of Religions. I knew it was a Catholic school, but thought that as a society we had moved a long way away from indoctrinating kids.

or that she was not really a Catholic,

It wasn't a case of her her being not really a Catholic. As above, I initially wasn't too bothered about her being taught Religion

and when they did teach her religion, as a Catholic school is supposed to for Catholics, you then kick up.

Where did I say I kicked up about them teaching her Religion? I was upset that when she announced that she didn't believe in God she was threatened, bullied and then told that she has to believe in God.

Have you talked to them about the bullying and what are they doing about it ?

I have written to the Principal and told her everything that my daughter told me. I have not asked for explicit action to be taken about the bullying yet, as I fully expect this to stop once my daughter is opted out of Religion and isn't chastised by the teacher. While I did think about requesting a copy of the school's charter on bullying, I decided that it would be counter-productive to start down that road straight away. Instead I struck a conciliatory tone.

EunanMac

bajer101 wrote: »

Where did I say I kicked up about them teaching her Religion? I was upset that when she announced that she didn't believe in God she was threatened, bullied and then told that she has to believe in God.

Catholics do have to believe in God, that's a core teaching to Catholicism. No one should ever be threatened or bullied, and that's the issue you should be tackling, if you don't care if she is taught Catholic beliefs or not.

bajer101 wrote: »

I have written to the Principal and told her everything that my daughter told me. I have not asked for explicit action to be taken about the bullying yet, as I fully expect this to stop once my daughter is opted out of Religion and isn't chastised by the teacher. While I did think about requesting a copy of the school's charter on bullying, I decided that it would be counter-productive to start down that road straight away. Instead I struck a conciliatory tone.

So instead of going to see them about this urgent matter, you wrote them a letter ?
The bullying and threatening needs to be tackled and stopped right away
If my child was threatened and bullied, I'd be right round to the school, not writing a letter.

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

So if that were true, why not tell them to change their unprofessional behaviour, rather than not teach her religion ?

Because his child doesn't believe in god, he's following the wishes of his child.

I find it amusing that in this thread we've had a number of people say "ask what the child wants" and when the OP does that and the child doesn't want religion others claim the child isn't development enough to make this decision.
:rolleyes:

So the child is development enough to choose the school they go to according to a number of people on this thread, but not development enough to make their decision about god even though they have said that if they say they believe in god then they know they are lying.

The kid doesn't want to lie everyday by saying they believe in a god they don't believe in, its really as simple as that.

EunanMac, before you post any further I'd recommend you read this thread...atleast the posts by the OP. You are really showing yourself up.

shruikan2553

Cabaal wrote: »

Because his child doesn't believe in god, he's following the wishes of his child.

I find it amusing that in this thread we've had a number of people say "ask what the child wants" and when the OP does that and the child doesn't want religion others claim the child isn't development enough to make this decision.
:rolleyes:

So the child is development enough to choose the school they go to according to a number of people on this thread, but not development enough to make their decision about god even though they have said that if they say they believe in god then they know they are lying.

The kid doesn't want to lie everyday by saying they believe in a god they don't believe in, its really as simple as that.

EunanMac, before you post any further I'd recommend you read this thread...atleast the posts by the OP. You are really showing yourself up.

Its the lisbon treaty all over again.
Do you want to be a Catholic? No
Are you sure? Yes.
Its just a phase and you'll get over it and become a Catholic.

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

So instead of going to see them about this urgent matter, you wrote them a letter ?
The bullying needs to be stopped right away

Sending a e-mail means everything is in writing in black and white, there's a nice record of everything. This is important if it comes to any future issues.

The only bullying that has happened was from school staff. Considering the principal received the OP's e-mail its upto him/her to deal with the issue with the staff.

The school will have of course received the e-mail instantly, likely much sooner then if the op had to try have a meeting with the principal.

StopYa

cabal So you don't dispute the fact that the child is actually developed enough for logical thought? Grand so.

I take it you have nothing constructive to add then?

logical thought, some kids develop faster then others, but theyre not going to have all the answers at 7 , so picking some waffle article off the internet proves nothing.

bajer101

EunanMac wrote: »

So instead of going to see them about this urgent matter, you wrote them a letter ?
The bullying needs to be stopped right away

I kept her out of school while I sought advice and decided what action to take. I also work full time and had a procedure in hospital at the end of last week, so it wasn't possible to just drop everything and go and see them. I wrote an email to the Principal explaining the situation and my current wishes and I fully expect that to be the end of the bullying. If it's not, I will escalate it and take whatever action is required.

Do I have to keep repeating everything that has happened for your benefit and approval, or are you up to speed now and can we move on?

EunanMac

Cabaal wrote: »

Because his child doesn't believe in god, he's following the wishes of his child.

So surely he should have informed the school of same, and that she should not be taught Catholicism, a central belief of which is belief in God

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

So surely he should have informed the school of same, and that she should not be taught Catholicism, a central belief of which is belief in God

seriously, just read the thread.
It'll only take you a few min.

SpaceTime

While it's at this stage "another era" the 1990s I got this stuff in an Irish primary school.

I used to get taken aside in corridors by a concerned vice principal or priest who used to quiz me about why my family didn't ever go to mass.

I was told that if I didn't make my confirmation I couldn't go to secondary school and then I couldn't go to university or get a job.

At one stage I just used to make up illnesses to avoid school and used to spend a lot of time lobbying my parents to move back to France.

They just used to constantly pick on me at school over this stuff. Eventually I figured out how to find out what the gospel was each week so then I could just pretend I went to mass.

Also I got dragged to confession despite not being religious. I didn't know how to get out of it so I just went along with it on numerous occasions.

Just made up some "sins" to keep the priest happy. Whole thing seemed quite daft.

Other than that primary school here was extremely religious.

Mass every so often, lots of hymns during the day, lots of religious art projects, prayers at the start of class in the morning, at lunch, before you went home etc etc and the full Angelus!

Secondary school here wasn't quite as extreme but some teachers would insist on standing the whole class up for a 'quick pray' before every class. Most didn't but there were one or two fantastics.

Also a crucifix over every whiteboard and a statue of the Blessed Virgin in a glass case in every class.

EunanMac

bajer101 wrote: »

I kept her out of school while I sought advice and decided what action to take. I also work full time and had a procedure in hospital at the end of last week, so it wasn't possible to just drop everything and go and see them. I wrote an email to the Principal explaining the situation and my current wishes and I fully expect that to be the end of the bullying. If it's not, I will escalate it and take whatever action is required.

Do I have to keep repeating everything that has happened for your benefit and approval, or are you up to speed now and can we move on?

I really think you need to visit the school and talk to the principle, merely writing an email in such a serious situation, does not cut it.

bajer101

EunanMac wrote: »

Catholics do have to believe in God, that's a core teaching to Catholicism. No one should ever be threatened or bullied, and that's the issue you should be tackling, if you don't care if she is taught Catholic beliefs or not. [\QUOTE]

And that is the issue that upset me and the reason I started the thread. Once my daughter announced that she did not believe in God, that added a new dimension to the issue which is being resolved by her opting out of Religion.

bajer101

EunanMac wrote: »

So surely he should have informed the school of same, and that she should not be taught Catholicism, a central belief of which is belief in God

Oh FFS - this only became an issue during one of her first Religion classes when she announced that she did not believe in God. Up until then she did not voice any opinion on the subject one way or the other.

SpaceTime

The problem that I see is that if you were another religion they'd bend over backwards to be inclusive.

However they see Irish, non religious family and immediately go into 'It's a disgrace' mode and think that you're some kind of irresponsible, lazy, immoral types who need to be brought back in line.

Basically Irish athiests are just seen as some kind of awkward failed Catholics by many of these characters.

It's completely unfair but that's how our bizarre country runs education.

EunanMac

bajer101 wrote: »

Oh FFS - this only became an issue during one of her first Religion classes when she announced that she did not believe in God. Up until then she did not voice any opinion on the subject one way or the other.

So as soon as she announced her belief, why did you not ask her to be removed from being taught religion (a core principle of which is to believe in God) right away ?

bajer101

EunanMac wrote: »

I really think you need to visit the school and talk to the principle, merely writing an email in such a serious situation, does not cut it.

If the email doesn't have the desired effect, then I will. But for now, an email should suffice, and as Cabaal has stated, it is a written record which is preferable. I do expect further communication, especially regarding what arrangements will be put in place for my daughter while the rest of the class are being taught Religion. I would like a written record of all this too.

bajer101

EunanMac wrote: »

So as soon as she announced her belief, why did you not ask her to be removed from being taught religion (a core principle of which is to believe in God) right away ?

Ah here..........I'm sorry, but I have to put you on ignore now.

shruikan2553

EunanMac wrote: »

So as soon as she announced her belief, why did you not ask her to be removed from being taught religion (a core principle of which is to believe in God) right away ?

What exactly is it you are trying to achieve? The person explain what and why she did things and interrogating her does what? Wait until she finally admits to something that allows you to place all the blame on her?

EunanMac

bajer101 wrote: »

If the email doesn't have the desired effect, then I will. But for now, an email should suffice, and as Cabaal has stated, it is a written record which is preferable. I do expect further communication, especially regarding what arrangements will be put in place for my daughter while the rest of the class are being taught Religion. I would like a written record of all this too.

For both your sakes, I would strongly advise you not to sit back and expect anything. I would seriously advise you to visit the school and speak to them regularly, and show them you take a regular, active, concerned interest, and do more than swap emails. That's what I'd do if it were my daughter.

Cabaal

shruikan2553 wrote: »

What exactly is it you are trying to achieve? The person explain what and why she did things and interrogating her does what? Wait until she finally admits to something that allows you to place all the blame on her?

Thats certainly how its come across to me anyway, while all the time refusing to actually read up on what has taken place by actually reading the thread

redfacedbear

I've heard an official with ET's national office explain that a lot of kids moving from ET primaries to ordinary secondaries can struggle a bit initially on the discipline front.

Coming from a school that encourages self-confidence, assertiveness and tolerance for difference to one with a more disciplinarian, rigid outlook can be a shock to the system. Often their assertiveness can be mis-interpretted for defiance or cheekiness and it takes them a while to adjust to the new regime.

I wonder, OP, if there was an element of this at play in your daughters case? She expressed an opinion that in her ET would be accepted or indeed encouraged and used as the basis for discussion but got slapped down by a teacher not used to that level of free thought?

It was still a lousy way to handle the situation and I'm not sure what your daughter can do about it but something to consider.

Brian Shanahan

realdanbreen wrote: »

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

Let's do a bit of number crunching here. There are approximately 4,588,[Long Wave Radio, Atlantic]252 (2011 census, figure here) people living in the Republic, 3,672 of which are clegry (again same census, figure here, my remembered figure of roughly 3,700 from helping my mother with her FYP a few years back was good). Thus we've 3,672/4,588,252=0.08% of the population according to you carrying out roughly 10% of child sexual molestation, that makes the individual clergyperson roughly 10%/0.08%=125 times more likely (on a statistical basis) than your average everyday person to commit a child molestation act.

That is not a very edifying figure.

vibe666

EunanMac wrote: »

For both your sakes, I would strongly advise you not to sit back and expect anything. I would seriously advise you to visit the school and speak to them regularly, and show them you take a regular, active, concerned interest, and do more than swap emails. That's what I'd do if it were my daughter.

i don't think anyone is going to be taking any advice from someone who is refusing to actually read through the thread and insists on making inaccurate, incorrect or just plain inappropriate comments.

bajer101

redfacedbear wrote: »

I've heard an official with ET's national office explain that a lot of kids moving from ET primaries to ordinary secondaries can struggle a bit initially on the discipline front.

Coming from a school that encourages self-confidence, assertiveness and tolerance for difference to one with a more disciplinarian, rigid outlook can be a shock to the system. Often their assertiveness can be mis-interpretted for defiance or cheekiness and it takes them a while to adjust to the new regime.

I wonder, OP, if there was an element of this at play in your daughters case? She expressed an opinion that in her ET would be accepted or indeed encouraged and used for as the basis for discussion but got slapped down by a teacher not used to that level of free thought?

It was still a lousy way to handle the situation and I'm not sure what your daughter can do about it but something to consider.

There could be an element of that alright. I'll just have to see how it plays out now that I have informed them that she is opting out of Religion. At least now, that is one less "new" thing for her to worry about and hopefully she can adapt to the other changes.

Brian Shanahan

hinault wrote: »

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

Wrong, as with all your posts hinault. Since 1984 every school in England is forced to start the day with a christian prayer (even the muslim ones!), one of the more batty things Maggie the Witch introduced, so there are no non-religious schools in England.

Brian Shanahan

beauf wrote: »

Why do these schools have better results?

Selective admissions policies allow them to pick students almost exclusively from higher economic brackets. Said students will get extra out of school grinds, be more likely to have extensive access to books and other materials to aid their study, and have parent more able to send them off on extra-curricular activities which will aid their learning.

It is a well known fact that when you correct for said advantages conferred outside of school time, private schools in England & Wales perform worse scholastically than the bog standard comprehensive. If comprehensives were given enough funding and control was returned to local education boards (results and general performance were and are much better under council ran comps) then the comprehensives would actually perform better than private schools even before adjusting for wealth differentials.

EunanMac

vibe666 wrote: »

i don't think anyone is going to be taking any advice from someone who is refusing to actually read through the thread and insists on making inaccurate, incorrect or just plain inappropriate comments.

I've read through the thread, merely swapping emails with the school in any serious situation, and expecting it to sort itself out without visiting the school or actively talking face to face with the principal and teachers is not good advice. They can take it or leave it, it doesn't affect my daughter.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Calhoun

EunanMac wrote: »

I've read through the thread, merely swapping emails with the school in such a serious situation, and expecting it to sort itself out without ever visiting the school or actively talking face to face with the principal and teachers does not cut it. If you're advising to the contrary, that is bad advice.

I don't think the OP really has said they were doing that, they are creating a paper trail which is very important in this situation. I would expect and the OP has pretty much said the same that they will follow up with a visit to the school.

EunanMac

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't think the OP really has said they were doing that, they are creating a paper trail which is very important in this situation. I would expect and the OP has pretty much said the same that they will follow up with a visit to the school.

"Creating a paper trail" and swapping emails, does not avoid the prime necessity to visit the school and talk to the principal and teachers concerning your child's immediate requirements and welfare. Schools and any bureaucracies can play around for years with emails and letters. If your child was being bullied and harassed at school, would you write an email or get down there regularly first and foremost ?, then write all the emails you like ? How can she verify anything the school tells her from a keyboard ? If you were a teacher who would you respect the most, a parent that takes an active involvement in visiting the school and talking to the teachers and principal, or one that writes an email ?

brianon

Had some experience with this lately. My daughter is 7. 2nd Class. Met the new teacher last week on about the 4th day of the new school year.

I told her I didn't want my daughter participating in religion. I told her she was not to be brought to the local church during the year (with first communion they'll be making a fair few trips there). I told her I did not want her to get the handouts that the local parish priest likes to give the kids when he drops by.

She was very nice about it. Put up a little struggle by trying to convince me that the religious education this year hadn't really got any 'god' stuff in it. I've read the Alive 'O' book so said no, I want her to skip religion.

Anyway, she will not be participating in religion and instead will do school work during the 2.5 hours per week of religious education and also during the trips to the church she will stay behind with the other 3 kids who's parents wanted the same. Also, she can remain seated during each of the 4 school prayers they do each day. This was my experience and I hope it works out well.

An email to the school is great but I think to work out the finer points (what happens during religion or on class visits to the church. especially around communion time.) you'll need to talk face to face once you get a chance.

vibe666

EunanMac wrote: »

I've read through the thread, merely swapping emails with the school in any serious situation, and expecting it to sort itself out without visiting the school or actively talking face to face with the principal and teachers is not good advice. They can take it or leave it, it doesn't affect my daughter.

and (as you'd know if you'd read the thread properly) the OP has already explained the situation multiple times regarding him not being able to visit personally up to now and how he is proceeding.

it seems very much like you're beginning to realise that everything else you've said has been shot down in flames, so you're clinging on to this one tiny last detail where there might still be room for criticism of the OP in the vain hope of some kind of 'win' so your participation in the thread (and I use the term loosely) isn't a complete failure on every level.

sorry to break it to you, but it's really not getting you anywhere.

EunanMac

In other words, you met them beforehand and let them know if you wanted religion taught to her or not, rather then leave them guessing,

brianon

EunanMac wrote: »

In other words, you met them beforehand and let them know if you wanted religion taught to her or not, rather then leave them guessing,

Not sure if this was to me but if it was...

No. She is in 2nd class. Been there since Junior Infants. The teacher was not aware at all that my daughter would not be taking part in the first communion.

My daughter is not baptised and we never spoke to any teachers about it until now.

IITYWYBMAD

EunanMac wrote: »

In other words, you met them beforehand and let them know if you wanted religion taught to her or not, rather then leave them guessing,

Do you really believe that this is a substantive issue? Really? I'd have more concern about the teachers and head teachers subsequent threats and reaction to a seven year old. All in all, it does not appear as if they acted in a very christian manner at all. Perhaps we should forgive them?

dharma200

I sent a letter in with both my daughters (6 and 7) http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/opting-out/letter-for-primary-schools/

The school last year put up a little struggle, stating the exact same, that th ebook only teach 'morality'.. read the alive o book for 1st class this year and just couldn't do it... parts in it about talking to god when you feel especially blue after christmas (no talk to ME if you are 7 years old and feel blue thank you)... I am having a face to face meeting next week... met one of the teachers in the street who said previously parents had driven to the school (it is rural) and brought their kids away for the duration of the RE... eh, no I won't be doing that.. short of sending in books about evolution and dinosaurs, I feel the girls reading their library books will be just fine for the ridiculous amount of time spent in national schools on ideology.

EunanMac

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Do you really believe that this is a substantive issue? Really? I'd have more concern about the teachers and head teachers subsequent threats and reaction to a seven year old. All in all, it does not appear as if they acted in a very christian manner at all. Perhaps we should forgive them?

Or send then an email, rather than get down to the school to sort it out.

I Heart Internet

Perhaps it's addressed in the thread, but I wonder if the OP spoke to the principal and/or teacher at all before his child joined the school concerning his wishes for his child's religious education.

Bottom line - talk to the principal and teacher.

EDIT: Read more of the thread and realised that the OP seems more interested in grandstanding online rather than making an appointment with the teacher and principal to discuss his daughter's education.

Rubberchikken

i dont understand the fuss being made today about this in schools.
over 30 years ago a church of ireland girl was in school with us. though a large class, 90 kids over three classes, she was the only one.
she didnt have to do religion nor go to the church etc when we did.
i have no memory of anyone making any reference to it. it just was.

speaking to the principal before class begins is the best way to deal with the issue, if a parent chooses a religious school for their children for whatever reason.

having a kid speak up in class to denounce god etc can only get peoples backs up.

better to go about it calmly and properly, and in a christian way:rolleyes:

lukesmom

vibe666 wrote: »

you really do need to make even a tiny bit of effort to read threads before making ignorant, uninformed comments in them.

Yes I did read the thread. He's giving out because the daughter is being taught to believe in God. He should not have sent her to a catholic school if he is an athiest. Poor child it's her I feel sorry for. Being singled out because at home your saying believe what you want we are atheists and at school being taught to believe in God. Can you not see the situation you have put her in???

dharma200

are you unaware that nearly ALL schools are catholic.

dharma200

can you not see the situation the state has put her in by allowing a singular religious organisation to have direct links with 95% of schools? Schools that are funded by all of us atheist taxpayers money?

lukesmom

He took her out of an educate together school because of logistical reasons. Now if he feels that strongly about the damage that singling her out in school for not believing in God could do then he should let her go bank to the school she was in. You cannot always get exactly what you want.

Cabaal

Rubberchikken wrote: »

i dont understand the fuss being made today about this in schools.
over 30 years ago a church of ireland girl was in school with us. though a large class, 90 kids over three classes, she was the only one.
she didnt have to do religion nor go to the church etc when we did.
i have no memory of anyone making any reference to it. it just was.

Bottom line is...schools vary ALOT
- Some schools will use non catholic belief as a reason to reject students, end of
- Some schools will openly reject students if they are pregnant as its against ethos (happened in Tipp in a secondary school), most others are perfectly fine and understanding

Its all really down to the staff in the school, some are more understanding then others. Mileage can vary massively school to school because of this.

Delirium

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I did read the thread. He's giving out because the daughter is being taught to believe in God. He should not have sent her to a catholic school if he is an athiest. Poor child it's her I feel sorry for. Being singled out because at home your saying believe what you want we are atheists and at school being taught to believe in God. Can you not see the situation you have put her in???

No. The problem is how the school handled the situation when their daughter stated she didn't believe in God. This could easily have happened if the poster was Christian but the daughter had decided she didn't believe in God.

No matter what the religious outlook of the parent(s) the child should not have been treated in the manner she was.

StopYa

your childs happiness should be more important than money cabal, send her back to educate together school