Daughter forced to believe in God

RustyNut

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from

Do you think the default position of children is that there is a god? Which god/s would that be?

lazygal

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from

The only reason seven years old believe in God, Santa or the tooth fairy is because someone has told them they exist not because they've come to that conclusion themselves.

bajer101

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear.

It's not a pity at all - I am delighted she said it. Not just because it demonstrated critical thinking, but also because it showed she was capable of voicing a dissenting opinion.

Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds.

Are you familiar with the concept of irony?

That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from

I wonder where Luke got the idea of God from? Tell me, is he a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Protestant....? I can assure you my daughter has much more freedom in choosing what she wants to believe than Luke.

Gerry T

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from

I think your right, OP you should get your 7yr old and tell her that if she has an opinion on anything, that doesn't conform to the majority she should just keep it to herself and not ask any questions. It's not about learning or questioning or anything like. Its about repeating what the teacher says....got it ?
The OP did say he was happy to let his daughter do her communion, it seems he's not forcing his belief system on her. Why do you find it hard to believe a 7yr old would stop believing in santa, angels, pixies, god, the easter bunny. They all have magical powers and no one has ever seen one.

?Cee?view

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from

You do realise that this isn't just some sort of hypothetical internet argument? This is a real father, a real child, getting on with life. Why are such loaded comments ("blurt", "impressionable") necessary? How do they help the father or child in this case?

I've a good friend who's a Monsignor. One of his favourite phrases is "God protect us from religious fanatics". There seem to be quite a few here who sacrifice Christian ideals in their zealotry.

Cabaal

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds.

Yeah silly child saying things that don't go in-line with the catholic ethos....I mean how dare they!.
:rolleyes:

I suppose next you'll be suggesting that a child with divorced parents shouldn't say it in class or a child with gay parents shouldn't ever mention it in school.

After all, it might give impressionable young 7 year olds the wrong idea and we don't want that.

Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from

Even more amazing that children at the age of 5 say they believe in a god and Jesus, wouldn't be anything to do with their parents blindingly telling them they exist?
:rolleyes:

aaakev

Fair play to your daughter op!


I feel sorry for Luke......

RustyNut

lukesmom wrote: »

It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds.

Indeed it might cause other curious kids to start asking awkward questions,is there really a god, why should I believe in her etc,start an intelligent discussion even.

Much better just tell them what they have to believe in and that there will be negative consequences if they dont, its the christian way.

FullblownRose

RustyNut wrote: »

Indeed it might cause other curious kids to start asking awkward questions,is there really a god, why should I believe in her etc,start an intelligent discussion even.

Much better just tell them what they have to believe in and that there will be negative consequences if they dont, its the christian way.

Children need to see the teacher resonding calmly and reasonably to a differing opinion. I pity all of the Lukes.

RustyNut

FullblownRose wrote: »

Children need to see the teacher resonding calmly and reasonably to a differing opinion. I pity all of the Lukes.

Suffer little children i think is the christian phrase that seems to fit.

Czarcasm

I wouldn't say it's interesting, but it's no surprise to see some posters who are decrying people ganging up on an individual for having a dissenting opinion, those same posters then ganging up on one poster with a dissenting opinion!

Dades

Several posters disagreeing with a post is hardly "ganging up".

We're not a hive mind where we prepare one response to cover all our opinions.

shruikan2553

Dades wrote: »

Several posters disagreeing with a post is hardly "ganging up".

We're not a hive mind where we prepare one response to cover all our opinions.

I thought we sent all opinions to Dawkins and then he told us what we should do

The people who " disagreed" tended to ignore what has been said. I want an Indian takeaway but there's only a dominos nearby. Telling the person to buy an Indian takeaway is not of any use.

Cabaal

Dades wrote: »

Several posters disagreeing with a post is hardly "ganging up".

We're not a hive mind where we prepare one response to cover all our opinions.

What?
I thought we all expressed the views of space pope?

EunanMac

The cartoons are out already ? I didn't think you'd give up that easy

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

The cartoons are out already ? I didn't think you'd give up that easy

Give up?
There's nothing to give up about, the law and constitution is on our side

People can argue against what the OP's child wants until the cows come home, it doesn't matter the OP has every right to not have their child indoctrinated.

EunanMac

Cabaal wrote: »

Give up?
There's nothing to give up about, the law and constitution is on our side

People can argue against what the OP's child wants until the cows come home, it doesn't matter the OP has every right to not have their child indoctrinated.

Of course they do, but the school has every right to be informed of the parents wishes in this regard, rather than letting them guess.

shruikan2553

EunanMac wrote: »

Of course they do, but the school has every right to be informed of the parents wishes in this regard, rather than letting them guess.

The parents wishes was to teach religion at the start. Do all the parents have to inform them or can they guess then?

Czarcasm

Dades wrote: »

Several posters disagreeing with a post is hardly "ganging up".

We're not a hive mind where we prepare one response to cover all our opinions.

Several posters expressing their disagreement with one poster in rather snarky tones and being thanked for it by several posters is... well, we may disagree on what we would interpret as ganging up on someone, but I didn't want to use the word bullying as that would imply the behaviour was consistent, and because I'm all too aware that there isn't a hive mind, but a "group think" here, I think it's quite easy to silence dissenting opinion, which is in itself quite ironic given the subject in the OP where he is concerned that his daughter is being bullied by her classmates for having a dissenting opinion.

RustyNut

EunanMac wrote: »

Of course they do, but the school has every right to be informed of the parents wishes in this regard, rather than letting them guess.

I think its implied that you don't want your kids bullied by a staff member whatever school you send them to.

EunanMac

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The parents wishes was to teach religion at the start. Do all the parents have to inform them or can they guess then?

And when they change their minds and don't want the school teaching religious beliefs, they should inform the school immediately, rather than complain afterwards.

shruikan2553

Czarcasm wrote: »

Several posters expressing their disagreement with one poster in rather snarky tones and being thanked for it by several posters is... well, we may disagree on what we would interpret as ganging up on someone, but I didn't want to use the word bullying as that would imply the behaviour was consistent, and because I'm all too aware that there isn't a hive mind, but a "group think" here, I think it's quite easy to silence dissenting opinion, which is in itself quite ironic given the subject in the OP where he is concerned that his daughter is being bullied by her classmates for having a dissenting opinion.

Where are the dissenting opinions? There are alternative views but most that I have seen are from failing to read the OP

shruikan2553

EunanMac wrote: »

And when they change their minds and don't want the school teaching religious beliefs, they should inform the school immediately, rather than complain afterwards.

Show me where the OP said their problem was with the teaching of religious beliefs.

EunanMac

RustyNut wrote: »

I think its implied that you don't want your kids bullied by a staff member whatever school you send them to.

Exactly, and that issue also needs to be addressed, the teacher in question should be taken up for it, and removed from teaching.

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

Of course they do, but the school has every right to be informed of the parents wishes in this regard, rather than letting them guess.

Its the child that doesn't want to told there is a god when they don't believe in one, this only happened in the class when the child said they don't believe a god exists.

The child was told by the school that they must believe in god but the child doesn't want to lie by saying they do. Hence why they don't want to take part in religion.

Do you not understand that?

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

Exactly, and that issue also needs to be addressed, the teacher in question should be taken up for it, and removed from teaching.

Your kidding me right?

The teacher would basically have to physically beat up a student before they'd even consider that and even then its questionable if it would actually happen.

Seriously difficult to fire a permanent teacher from a school,

Harry Angstrom

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The people who " disagreed" tended to ignore what has been said. I want an Indian takeaway but there's only a dominos nearby. Telling the person to buy an Indian takeaway is not of any use.

Well, if I was a regular at an Indian takeaway, but then decided to go to Dominos because it's nearer, it would be unreasonable of me to complain to the staff in Dominos when I can't get poppadoms and an onion bhaji.

EunanMac

Cabaal wrote: »

Its the child that doesn't want to told there is a god when they don't believe in one, this only happened in the class when the child said they don't believe a god exists.

The child was told by the school that they must believe in god but the child doesn't want to lie by saying they do. Hence why they don't want to take part in religion.

Do you not understand that?

Do you not understand that it is also a schools job to teach what they were led to believe was a Catholic child that God exists, as that is a central teaching of Catholicism ?

Any bullying regarding the teaching of any subject, should be addressed, but teaching what you were led to believe was a Catholic child, in a Catholic school, the belief that God exists, is not wrong.

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

And when they change their minds and don't want the school teaching religious beliefs, they should inform the school immediately, rather than complain afterwards.

again if you bothered to read the thread you'd see that its the child who said they don't believe in god, the school overreacted and threatened the child.

The OP has since contacted the school, problem solved.

The issue here is the school overreacting to what is/was a very simple issue because they assumed the child was being smart or trouble making, its not the op or the op's child.

EunanMac

Cabaal wrote: »

Your kidding me right?

The teacher would basically have to physically beat up a student before they'd even consider that and even then its questionable if it would actually happen.

Seriously difficult to fire a permanent teacher from a school,

I don't care how difficult it is, no teacher who is a proven bully should ever be allowed to teach children.

shruikan2553

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Well, if I was a regular at an Indian takeaway, but then decided to go to Dominos because it's nearer, it would be unreasonable of me to complain to the staff in Dominos when I can't get poppadoms and an onion bhaji.

Depends if the constitution give the person the right to popadoms and bjajis.

Cabaal

EunanMac wrote: »

I don't care how difficult it is, no teacher who is a proven bully should ever be allowed to teach children.

Oh I agree,
But what you want and the reality of the situation is very very different,

Its notoriously difficult for a teacher to be sacked,

EunanMac

Cabaal wrote: »

again if you bothered to read the thread you'd see that its the child who said they don't believe in god, the school overreacted and threatened the child.

The OP has since contacted the school, problem solved.

The issue here is the school overreacting to what is/was a very simple issue because they assumed the child was being smart or trouble making, its not the op or the op's child.

How they went about it was wrong, but a Catholic school is obliged to teach what they were led to believed was a Catholic child, Catholic beliefs, and that includes a belief in God. If you don't want your child taught Catholic beliefs, in a Catholic school, the onus is on you to inform the school.

EunanMac

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh I agree,
But what you want and the reality of the situation is very very different,

Its notoriously difficult for a teacher to be sacked,

Two wrongs don't make a right. I would not be letting any teacher or school who bullied my child to continue teaching them

Dublin Red Devil

I would meet with the principal and teacher of the school and explain the situation. Surely schools are forced to adapt to families of different faiths. Muslim, Jewish etc. So surely they have to accomodate thoes who choose no faith.

EunanMac

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

I would meet with the principal and teacher of the school and explain the situation. Surely schools are forced to adapt to families of different faiths. Muslim, Jewish etc. So surely they have to accomodate thoes who choose no faith.

They do, but you have to inform them, rather then leave them to guess

Dades

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Where are the dissenting opinions? There are alternative views but most that I have seen are from failing to read the OP

Agreed. If posts have been snarky it's been in response to posters who have posted obtusely.

To even mention the word bullying makes a mockery of the word. This is clearly a forum where certain ideas are shared by a majority. Genuine posts are met with genuine responses and posts that fall below that standard get back what they put in.

EunanMac

We've been led to believe the Child was bullied by the OP, so I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt and assumed she has been

Dublin Red Devil

EunanMac wrote: »

They do, but you have to inform them, rather then leave them to guess

Yes thats why the meeting is important. Make sure all parties are on the same page. And come up with a solution to the problem. The school has to facilitate this.

Norma_Desmond

This thread is a never ending loop of people not reading the thread at all and then telling the OP to move their child out of the Catholic school.

97% Christian schools in this country people; if there were enough other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all. Don't see how religion has any place in schools tbh.

Also, kids saying four prayers a day??!!??
I thought things were moving forward and there was much more open thinking, kind of scared about the prospect of having kids now.
Have a lot of respect for you OP, wasn't aware that the system was so parochial.

brianon

Norma_Desmond wrote: »

This thread is a never ending loop of people not reading the thread at all and then telling the OP to move their child out of the Catholic school.

97% Christian schools in this country people; if there were enough other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all. Don't see how religion has any place in schools tbh.

Also, kids saying four prayers a day??!!??
I thought things were moving forward and there was much more open thinking, kind of scared about the prospect of having kids now.
Have a lot of respect for you OP, wasn't aware that the system was so parochial.

Way too much time devoted to religion in primary schools imo.

lukesmom

Norma_Desmond wrote: »

This thread is a never ending loop of people not reading the thread at all and then telling the OP to move their child out of the Catholic school.

97% Christian schools in this country people; if there were enough other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all. Don't see how religion has any place in schools tbh.

Also, kids saying four prayers a day??!!??
I thought things were moving forward and there was much more open thinking, kind of scared about the prospect of having kids now.
Have a lot of respect for you OP, wasn't aware that the system was so parochial.

'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.

shruikan2553

lukesmom wrote: »

'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.

First line in the OP

bajer101 wrote: »

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

lazygal

lukesmom wrote: »

'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.

When is the time and place for my children to discuss why they don't believe Catholic teachings?

eviltwin

lukesmom wrote: »

'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.

He had good reasons for making the move, I doubt he did it on a whim. I don't think he is asking too much, plenty of kids in Catholic schools don't have Catholic beliefs, schools should accommodate them as best they can. ET schools seem to manage with multiple faiths.


OP I think your daughter sounds amazing, there are adults I know who won't stand up for anything, who kowtow to the RCC despite not believing because they don't want to rock the boat. It's not easy to stand up against an authority figure especially when you're a kid. Good for her.

lukesmom

eviltwin wrote: »

He had good reasons for making the move, I doubt he did it on a whim. I don't think he is asking too much, plenty of kids in Catholic schools don't have Catholic beliefs, schools should accommodate them as best they can. ET schools seem to manage with multiple faiths.


OP I think your daughter sounds amazing, there are adults I know who won't stand up for anything, who kowtow to the RCC despite not believing because they don't want to rock the boat. It's not easy to stand up against an authority figure especially when you're a kid. Good for her.

Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.

lazygal

lukesmom wrote: »

Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.

Is there something wrong with a child mentioning that they are different from the rest of the class? What about a child of a different faith mentioning polytheism,.should that child not mention they aren't Catholic?

bajer101

eviltwin wrote: »

He had good reasons for making the move, I doubt he did it on a whim. I don't think he is asking too much, plenty of kids in Catholic schools don't have Catholic beliefs, schools should accommodate them as best they can. ET schools seem to manage with multiple faiths.


OP I think your daughter sounds amazing, there are adults I know who won't stand up for anything, who kowtow to the RCC despite not believing because they don't want to rock the boat. It's not easy to stand up against an authority figure especially when you're a kid. Good for her.

Thanks. One of the reasons I had to get fully behind her on this was that I couldn't let her spirit be knocked out of her. A big problem with this country is that people were afraid to question authority figures - not just the church. This facilitated the abuse scandals and corruption.

Bit of an update: I collected her from her childcare earlier and she is a much happier child today. She didn't have to say prayers (she just stood with the class, but didn't say them), and there was no religious lessons today! I suspect that this was because the finer elements of what she will do during Religion will be ironed out between me and the Principal in the morning.

bajer101

lukesmom wrote: »

Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.

lukesmom

bajer101 wrote: »

Thanks. One of the reasons I had to get fully behind her on this was that I couldn't let her spirit be knocked out of her. A big problem with this country is that people were afraid to question authority figures - not just the church. This facilitated the abuse scandals and corruption.

Bit of an update: I collected her from her childcare earlier and she is a much happier child today. She didn't have to say prayers (she just stood with the class, but didn't say them), and there was no religious lessons today! I suspect that this was because the finer elements of what she will do during Religion will be ironed out between me and the Principal in the morning.

That sounds good at least today she just stayed quiet and respected the class enough to get on with their prayers etc. I've no problem really with other religions or non religions going to a catholic school but when they disrupt what the teacher is trying to teach my children, what is on the curriculum then I'd find that rude.