Formula 1 2014: Round 13 - Italian Grand Prix

zombieHanalei

Right; so were Mercedes going to fire Rosberg if he didn't throw the race? When? Straight away? End of season?

If straight away; Nico would destroy them in court and the damage to their reputation would be catastrophic.

End of season? Well if that was the case; then why not just take his chances, not "throw" the race and take a 36 point lead into the final 6 races. What does he want more; to drive for Mercedes next year or to end the season with the drivers title and a contract termination. He'd have no trouble finding a new team.

Why on earth would Nico throw a race? I'm genuinely surprised people think that lowly of him. Why would any self respecting driver deliberately sabotage his own challenge for the WDC?

This isn't like Piquet Jr; a.k.a. a 23 year old rookie being hammered by his teammate being asked to do something crazy to benefit the team. Piquet wasn't setting the world alight and he knew disobeying that order jeopardized not only his future with the team, but his future in the sport full stop. Rosberg is a proven/solid driver who all teams know can be depended upon to do the job were he to become available.

Now maybe this is a bit out there; but perhaps it might just simply be the case that Nico just f****d up.

Roquentin

_rebelkid wrote: »

He wasn't willing to "take them both out". Hamilton's comments, which Wolff and Lowe clarified, were that Rosberg didn't totally back out of the move. That is different from what you're implying. What Rosberg did last week was misjudge a cut back, and not fully back out. You saw how much track position Vettel lost doing the same thing. Puncturing the tyre was an unfortunate consequence. There's only a very small are of the sidewall that you could snag with part of the FW and puncture the tyre.

Something isn't suspect because a bunch of self-confessed Hamilton fans think it so. I spent a hour scrolling through the F1 hashtag, and 95% of those questioning Rosberg were the same people who have called him a cheat since Monaco. No one who's actually part of the sport is questioning the mistake today. EJ asked Wolff because he knew it would fit in with the "Team Payback" narrative the broadcasters have been running with.

Toto was smiling because for the first time since Austria, the team actually had a good weekend. All the team cares about is getting a 1-2 finish. That's all. Mercedes have given their drivers a good car, and the assurance of equal racing between them. It's then up to the drivers to race.

Making the mistake the first time was uncharacteristic: he was under no pressure, and wasn't pushing. The second time was him cracking under the pressure from Hamilton. He knew Hamilton was within DRS range. He knew the gap had been closing since the stops. All he could do was push. He did. He pushed too much. He locked up on the corner with the biggest stopping requirement of the year. Everybody has been saying that Hamilton had the psychological advantage after Spa, yet they suddenly forget about that when it actually takes effect.

I understand your points, but i dont buy in to it. Pressure is when you are up court and risk losing your house. Thats pressure. Rosberg has just signed a new deal worth 55 million, so all he has to do is remain competitive to claim what was signed in the contract.

The first mistake you say was lack concentration. yea ok. perhaps. But psychologically given that you have made an error your mind would be so careful the next time. He could have made the turn and you can see him jigging the car a bit almost to grant Hamilton the advantage.

_rebelkid

Roquentin wrote: »

I understand your points, but i dont buy in to it. Pressure is when you are up court and risk losing your house. Thats pressure. Rosberg has just signed a new deal worth 55 million, so all he has to do is remain competitive to claim what was signed in the contract.

The first mistake you say was lack concentration. yea ok. perhaps. But psychologically given that you have made an error your mind would be so careful the next time. He could have made the turn and you can see him jigging the car a bit almost to grant Hamilton the advantage.

That's what he was doing today. Staying competitive with a driver of the calibre of Hamilton means there's a lot more required of you, especially with the quality of car they're both in. As Rosberg said, he had to up his game because he knew Hamilton was coming. He did that, and made a mistake.

Roquentin

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Right; so were Mercedes going to fire Rosberg if he didn't throw the race? When? Straight away? End of season?

If straight away; Nico would destroy them in court and the damage to their reputation would be catastrophic.

End of season? Well if that was the case; then why not just take his chances, not "throw" the race and take a 36 point lead into the final 6 races. What does he want more; to drive for Mercedes next year or to end the season with the drivers title and a contract termination. He'd have no trouble finding a new team.

Why on earth would Nico throw a race? I'm genuinely surprised people think that lowly of him. Why would any self respecting driver deliberately sabotage his own challenge for the WDC?

This isn't like Piquet Jr; a.k.a. a 23 year old rookie being hammered by his teammate being asked to do something crazy to benefit the team. Piquet wasn't setting the world alight and he knew disobeying that order jeopardized not only his future with the team, but his future in the sport full stop. Rosberg is a proven/solid driver who all teams know can be depended upon to do the job were he to become available.

Now maybe this is a bit out there; but perhaps it might just simply be the case that Nico just f****d up.

this is a gentle mans agreement. That you took out your team mate you will endeavor to give him the victory next time round.

Youd often see in the final group game of WC group match, that if two teams playing each other only have to draw with each other, to assure qualification, they tend to draw with each other. Prior to kick off they have come to an "agreement" verbally to draw the match.

I speculate and thats all i am doing and i am allowed to, that earlier this week or after last race, he was told to give lewis the benefit. A simple verbal exchange and understandable given what happened

acquiescefc

Nope im sorry. I dont believe it for a second. He bottled the fight, he knew once he was within DRS he was going to lose the lead. It was an insult for EJ to suggest it live on air.

Ghost Train

We'll Eddie asking on air sort of showed how crazy it even sounded suggesting it, said he wasn't even suggesting it himself but picking on what some might see it as.

Don't see Merc having that sort punishment or team order deal with the drivers, can't imagine the drivers would ever go for it, was a clumbsy mistake by Nico last time what would be the point in digging themselves deeper into hole for the next race by trying to orchestrate brake locking switch of position which they'd probably screw up if they tried to plan it out

christy c

I've seen some good ones in here before but saying this was deliberate is insane. If I was a mod I'd be sending ye packing to the conspiracy theories forum

Scotty #

christy c wrote: »

I've seen some good ones in here before but saying this was deliberate is insane.

...because a driver in F1 would never deliberately let a team mate pass. :rolleyes:

I don't want to believe that ROS let him pass but I'm still not convinced. I've watched the replay over and over and I just don't see why he went straight on. Looking at the replay, particularly the shot from ROS's rear facing camera, HAM appears to brake much later than ROS and came in hotter. Tyres on both cars were fresh and track conditions were the same as they were all weekend.

They had been doing more or less the same lap times (-/+ 0.1) until the radio message, then HAM makes up the 2+ second gap in two laps! HAM gets in front but doesn't take off into the distance, ROS stayed with him until the end of the race doing more or less identical lap times.

"I could have taken the corner but didn't want a flat spot". Really? So don't defend your position at all? This from the same guy who a week ago was saying he could have avoided the collision but wouldn't!? ROS knows full well that the only reason he is leading the championship is due to mechanical failure on HAM's side. He should be fighting hard for every last point, as he was in SPA.

Lauda and Wolff were furious (and publicly so) with ROS after SPA. I don't think it's insane to suggest that behind closed doors ROS was told to let HAM have a win. More so as punishment rather than compensation to HAM. Is it that unbelievable?

IF this was a mistake then it was a very rookie mistake, TWICE! Certainly not the driving of someone worthy or a Drivers Championship. But, maybe he had been adjusting the brake balance and just got caught out, twice? Maybe he did just bottle it when he saw HAM get so close? Maybe he did believe it was better to give away 7 points than risk a flat spot?

We'll never know.

Gillespy

A flat spot in a one stop race would been a disaster for him. Another stop would have given Massa something to fight for. I think Rosberg knows that all things being equal he will finish behind Hamilton more often than not. He got a lifeline at the start but he needs more than that. He just didn't have the pace and that was evident all weekend.

Just watching it on Sky now, not surprised Croft made a hames of the start, mixing up the two Mercedes.

Vegeta

Scotty # wrote: »

HAM gets in front but doesn't take off into the distance, ROS stayed with him until the end of the race doing more or less identical lap times.

That's exactly what all leading drivers do, try to build a gap and then slow down and match the speeds/times/ability of the drivers behind. This is done to preserve fuel, tyre life and reduce stress on the car (engine, drive-train, brakes etc)

The size of the gap the driver is told to try and build is dependent on strategy. In certain strategies they are told just to drive flat out of course.

In the last 4 seasons we frequently heard Vettel's engineer come on the radio when he was leading a GP and tell him to slow down for all of the reasons above.

Tea 1000

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I'd normally agree with you but it wouldn't be out of the realms of possibility. Could have been a punishment from the team from the last race. I have also seen it happen myself in lower formula's.

My own guess would be that Rosberg knew Hamilton was quicker on that track, and knew with DRS he'd get by, and rather than let him have the psychological victory of him getting past on track in a wheel-to-wheel battle, decided to "miss" a breaking point again and go through the chicane and thus avoiding any toe-to-toe battle.
I don't think it was a team order, but I'd agree that it's not outside the bounds of possibility. The biggest indicator to back up that point is the times being matched from the overtake onwards after the initial gap was opened. But who knows for sure!
A flat spot on any tyre would have been detrimental to Rosberg's race though, so maybe it was just as we saw it with no mind games or team orders!
I still don't think Monaco was deliberate by the way, and I also think the booing fans need to cop on. They're probably the british fans, they have proven themselves to like booing across many sports!

cadaliac

Tea 1000 wrote: »

My own guess would be that Rosberg knew Hamilton was quicker on that track, and knew with DRS he'd get by, and rather than let him have the psychological victory of him getting past on track in a wheel-to-wheel battle, decided to "miss" a breaking point again and go through the chicane and thus avoiding any toe-to-toe battle.
I don't think it was a team order, but I'd agree that it's not outside the bounds of possibility. The biggest indicator to back up that point is the times being matched from the overtake onwards after the initial gap was opened. But who knows for sure!
A flat spot on any tyre would have been detrimental to Rosberg's race though, so maybe it was just as we saw it with no mind games or team orders!
I still don't think Monaco was deliberate by the way, and I also think the booing fans need to cop on. They're probably the british fans, they have proven themselves to like booing across many sports!

This.
Rosberg has a history of "going straight" when there is a run off area to go to. Either that or flat spot the tyre. to me it shows how hard he was trying and used the run off area to his advantage rather than flatspot the tyre. Anyway, he made a mistake for the second one while being pursued by Hamilton. Its very obvious to me. Once ham got in front - as mentioned above - he matched times with the next nearest driver. No need to bin the car, but get the result. Hence Toto's smiles after the race.

ScumLord

That was a great race, this years cars seem to be able to challenge each other on all the tracks that are supposedly hard to overtake on. Ricardo had a great drive, I thought his weekend was a bit disappointing up until the second pitstop, but he's showing real class.

The conspiracy theories that are going around this year are insane. I have a friend who thinks the organisers can control the power of the cars and press a button to make them break down whenever they want.

Turn 1 of Monza is a very tricky corner, it's very, very easy to mess up and does carry a lot of pressure because if you mess it up you won't' recover from the mistake until the second chicane. It's not surprising Rosberg or anyone else made a mistake there, it's a credit to all the drivers that they make so few mistakes but they're not perfect and mistakes do happen.

Oblomov

Since T0to Wolff expressed an "open Door" policy, the best way to quell all and any debate is to show the Telemetry print out for the times bothe before and after impact for both cars. and comparable figures for the same corner at later laps.

The same for Monza and a sample of lap times and more important, fuel consumption for both cars.

In that, was Rosberg's car on a higher fuel consumption figure as depicted bt Sky vehicle performance graphics.

Everyone, myself included, can give different theories but without data to either confirm or deny... The arguments could be endless.

ScumLord

Oblomov wrote: »

Since T0to Wolff expressed an "open Door" policy, the best way to quell all and any debate is to show the Telemetry print out for the times bothe before and after impact for both cars. and comparable figures for the same corner at later laps.

Why don't they give them the pin number to their bank account while they're at it?

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

That was a great race, this years cars seem to be able to challenge each other on all the tracks that are supposedly hard to overtake on.

Odd to mention that after Monza.

twalyn

When is formula e starting and where can you watch it?

twalyn

Hamilton for the championship much better driver than Nico

Jordan 199

twalyn wrote: »

When is formula e starting and where can you watch it?

It's starting this weekend in China. There's a Formula E thread here.

Zcott

Hamilton has the momentum at the moment, despite fluffing the start in Monza. I'd expect him to be leading the championship within a couple of races.

Brian CivilEng

I'd like to see Rosberg win, just because it makes Schumacher look better. Schumacher did nothing worthwhile in his comeback, except constantly give the race to his teammate. Now Rosberg is showing himself to be pretty much on par with Hamilton, who is regarded as one of the best out there, really shows that Schumacher was doing the best with the equipment he had.

Hamilton is a pretty hard driver to like. I really don't like his personality, the way he tends to complain when things aren't going his way, the way he throws the blame out there without fully thinking things through. Has he gotten on with any of his teammates, ever? Button maybe?

After Webber retired I needed someone new to shout for. Picked Rosberg as this year's champ prior to Melbourne, but Danny Ricciardo is fast becoming a favourite.

Anyone else getting sick of the sight of Toto Wolff by the way?

ScumLord

Zcott wrote: »

Hamilton has the momentum at the moment, despite fluffing the start in Monza. I'd expect him to be leading the championship within a couple of races.

I don't know, I think it's Rosberg's championship to lose. I think it could go right down to the last race though.

I think Hamiltons the better driver but Rosberg has a good points advantage that's hard to make up on.

Roquentin

whatever happens its already a serious F1 season. Hopefully it will go down to the wire.

Schwiiing

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Anyone else getting sick of the sight of Toto Wolff by the way?

He's this years Christian Horner. How I despise that man :mad:.

Gillespy

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I'd like to see Rosberg win, just because it makes Schumacher look better. Schumacher did nothing worthwhile in his comeback, except constantly give the race to his teammate. Now Rosberg is showing himself to be pretty much on par with Hamilton, who is regarded as one of the best out there, really shows that Schumacher was doing the best with the equipment he had.

Hamilton beat Rosberg last year. One could say he beat him in Schumacher's car. There are no positives to Schumacher's comeback. Especially now that you're having to use Rosberg to prop up his legacy.

ZiabR

Anyone notice just how much brake dust was flying off the Force India and Williams cars. Far to much front bias. I was just waited to see Perez fly off the track at turn 1.

Tea 1000

Gillespy wrote: »

Hamilton beat Rosberg last year. One could say he beat him in Schumacher's car. There are no positives to Schumacher's comeback. Especially now that you're having to use Rosberg to prop up his legacy.

Apart from pole in Monaco in a car that wasn't really capable of it! The consensus at the time from around the paddock was that it was one of the best laps they'd seen.
Hamilton narrowly enough beat Rosberg last year, 18 points isn't much over a season, especially seeing as Rosberg had 2 retirements versus Hamilton's 1, and Rosberg had team orders to hold behind Hamilton in one race, which he did. Worth noting he won 2 races versus Hamilton's 1. So despite Hamilton being the quicker of the two outright, there's not a lot between them on balance.

acquiescefc

Rosberg was 2nd in qualification as he was slowed down by the massive chip on his shoulder.

Tea 1000

acquiescefc wrote: »

Rosberg was 2nd in qualification as he was slowed down by the massive chip on his shoulder.

Whereas Hamilton is a much more balanced guy. He has a chip on both his shoulders!

Gillespy

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Apart from pole in Monaco in a car that wasn't really capable of it! The consensus at the time from around the paddock was that it was one of the best laps they'd seen.
Hamilton narrowly enough beat Rosberg last year, 18 points isn't much over a season, especially seeing as Rosberg had 2 retirements versus Hamilton's 1, and Rosberg had team orders to hold behind Hamilton in one race, which he did. Worth noting he won 2 races versus Hamilton's 1. So despite Hamilton being the quicker of the two outright, there's not a lot between them on balance.

Whether Schumacher had the car or not isn't the point, he was beaten by his teammate. That doesn't happen. His misbegotten comeback only served to flatter Rosberg. He was brought back down to earth in 2013. If he doesn't beat him this year it won't be because of talent. I'll have those excuses you are using there, more wins, more DNFs, more technical issues to explain why.

Tea 1000

Gillespy wrote: »

Whether Schumacher had the car or not isn't the point, he was beaten by his teammate. That doesn't happen. His misbegotten comeback only served to flatter Rosberg. He was brought back down to earth in 2013. If he doesn't beat him this year it won't be because of talent. I'll have those excuses you are using there, more wins, more DNFs, more technical issues to explain why.

There are always excuses, but Hamilton is no Senna, no matter what he believes himself.

LEIN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seauBvXFPCo