Skinny Shaming

Wibbs

Tarzana wrote: »

Well, not tiny, she flitted between a size 8 and size 12 going by modern measurements. She had a tiny waist though. (As did women in general 50 years ago. Even modern playboy models would have far less cinched waists than their counterparts of the 50s, 60s and 70s) But the bust and hip measurements were in the 8-12 range. So, in keeping with a lot of Irish women.

Not quite.

"As a direct example of her size, the white dress she wore in The Seven Year Itch was recently auctioned off and was put on a mannequin that was a size 2, but they were still unable to zip up the dress as the mannequin was too big. Many of her other dresses that exist from throughout her career match up to about the same, give or take an inch or two. That being said, Marilyn Monroe at times would have her dresses so tight they’d have to be sown onto her, so something more comfortable in a size 4-ish (American) and something like an 8 in the U.K. is probably more accurate with most brands, though it should be noted that a 22 inch waist in many popular American jean sizes today would be below a 0"

Overall she was a 5 foot 5 size 8 in today's sizes(with a much smaller waist). What's interesting in that article is how the shapes have changed in the interim. " the average American woman in the 1950s had a 25 inch waist compared to Monroe’s 22 inches. Whereas today, the average American woman has a waist size of 34 inches, so the gap between the models and “average” was much less pronounced then." Now much of that would come down to people in the west being taller overall too, but it's a pretty big change. Goes for men's sizes too. Men were much thinner on average back then. In shape and frame not just extra fat. If you ever get the chance to see Victorian or Edwardian clothes for men and women they were usually tiny by comparison to today and not just in height. The wrist holes on shirts and jackets for men were tiny. I'm thin and have scrawny wrists(6.5 inch) and they'd be tight on me.

Wibbs

Tarzana wrote: »

Very astute point. Making people feel bad for being slim is really awful, but not a hope do slim people have it worse than overweight people.

+1. Skinny men might have more of it going on, but even there not close to how overweight men do. And that's before we look at how much less society judges men by weight anyway.

LenaClaire

Wibbs wrote: »

Now much of that would come down to people in the west being taller overall too, but it's a pretty big change. Goes for men's sizes too. Men were much thinner on average back then. In shape and frame not just extra fat. If you ever get the chance to see Victorian or Edwardian clothes for men and women they were usually tiny by comparison to today and not just in height. The wrist holes on shirts and jackets for men were tiny. I'm thin and have scrawny wrists(6.5 inch) and they'd be tight on me.

There have been several interesting studies that show that the nutritional health of your parents and even your grandparents can have an impact on your height and build. We started having much more available and higher quality food across most levels of society in the past few generations, so we are seeing much taller and broader averages. The upper class and warrior classes used to be taller and stronger than the peasant class just due to the nutrition available during their childhoods.

Small final adult height and broadness of bones is related to your mother's nutrition and your nutrition prior to age 18-20. The Average woman 100 years ago was 5 foot 1 and now the average woman is around 5 foot 6. Pretty impressive bump in 3-4 generations when you think of the ratios.

Also, women up until the recent years have worn fairly strong shape wear, that can have a permanent impact on your shape if you wear it during your teens and twenties, as it can actually change the ways your bones and organs grow.

Tarzana

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite.

"As a direct example of her size, the white dress she wore in The Seven Year Itch was recently auctioned off and was put on a mannequin that was a size 2, but they were still unable to zip up the dress as the mannequin was too big. Many of her other dresses that exist from throughout her career match up to about the same, give or take an inch or two. That being said, Marilyn Monroe at times would have her dresses so tight they’d have to be sown onto her, so something more comfortable in a size 4-ish (American) and something like an 8 in the U.K. is probably more accurate with most brands, though it should be noted that a 22 inch waist in many popular American jean sizes today would be below a 0"

Overall she was a 5 foot 5 size 8 in today's sizes(with a much smaller waist). What's interesting in that article is how the shapes have changed in the interim. " the average American woman in the 1950s had a 25 inch waist compared to Monroe’s 22 inches. Whereas today, the average American woman has a waist size of 34 inches, so the gap between the models and “average” was much less pronounced then." Now much of that would come down to people in the west being taller overall too, but it's a pretty big change. Goes for men's sizes too. Men were much thinner on average back then. In shape and frame not just extra fat. If you ever get the chance to see Victorian or Edwardian clothes for men and women they were usually tiny by comparison to today and not just in height. The wrist holes on shirts and jackets for men were tiny. I'm thin and have scrawny wrists(6.5 inch) and they'd be tight on me.

That's all waist sizes. Her hips were between size 8 and 12, as was her bust. I already mentioned that her waist was smaller than that. Today, despite the smaller waist, she would have needed from size 8s to size 12s depending on the time period in her life. Can't remeber where it was but I saw an article on her measurements at various points in her life and compared them to current sizes for hips, bust and waist. The dress wouldn't zip up on a size 2 (UK size 8) if it was made to measure as her waist would have been smaller than that, whereas the modern size 2 would be assuming size 2 measurements across hips, waist and bust.

Dolbert

Tarzana wrote: »

That's all waist sizes. Her hips were between size 8 and 12, as was her bust. I already mentioned that her waist was smaller than that. Today, despite the smaller waist, she would have needed from size 8s to size 12s depending on the time period in her life. Can't remeber where it was but I saw an article on her measurements at various points in her life and compared them to current sizes for hips, bust and waist. The dress wouldn't zip up on a size 2 (UK size 8) if it was made to measure as her waist would have been smaller than that, whereas the modern size 2 would be assuming size 2 measurements across hips, waist and bust.

Yep, she had a tiny 22 inch waist but 35 inch bust and hips, so an extreme hourglass. I remember reading that all of her clothes had to be tailored to fit. People are mistaken when they say she was bigger, but she was curvy.

Penny Tration

LenaClaire wrote: »

There have been several interesting studies that show that the nutritional health of your parents and even your grandparents can have an impact on your height and build. We started having much more available and higher quality food across most levels of society in the past few generations, so we are seeing much taller and broader averages. The upper class and warrior classes used to be taller and stronger than the peasant class just due to the nutrition available during their childhoods.

Small final adult height and broadness of bones is related to your mother's nutrition and your nutrition prior to age 18-20. The Average woman 100 years ago was 5 foot 1 and now the average woman is around 5 foot 6. Pretty impressive bump in 3-4 generations when you think of the ratios.

Also, women up until the recent years have worn fairly strong shape wear, that can have a permanent impact on your shape if you wear it during your teens and twenties, as it can actually change the ways your bones and organs grow.

I mustn't have been fed as well as my siblings. They're all over 5'5 while I'm still only 5'1 :pac:

LenaClaire

green_screen wrote: »

I mustn't have been fed as well as my siblings. They're all over 5'5 while I'm still only 5'1 :pac:

There are lots of other variables involved, this is just a primary one :pac:

I, also, am the shortest of all my family, including cousins but that is due to all the meds I was on as a child Better short than dead!

Gyalist

Tarzana wrote: »

Very astute point. Making people feel bad for being slim is really awful, but not a hope do slim people have it worse than overweight people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVIs0D2acgw

Tarzana

Gyalist wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVIs0D2acgw

Ah, good ol' Chris.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

meeeeh wrote: »

Btw you know you are on top of the social ladder when it is not politically incorrect to make jokes or comments about your appearance.

See that's the thing. On an interaction-by-interaction level this whole skinny-shaming thing does have some kind of effect on me, but it's definitely a privileged problem. All other factors being equal (race, class, gender, etc.) I'm likely to have an easier ride through life than an overweight person. If I'm planning how I'm going about my day I'm not thinking about my weight and how people are going to react.

Shakespeare's Sister

This song/video annoys me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PCkvCPvDXk

"Skinny bitches" is contained in the lyrics and the slim woman in the video gets kinda pushed around.
The body-positive message, from what I recall, was introduced most explicitly in the early to mid 90s because of the supermodel thing causing women to feel inadequate. As a teen at the time I recall it very well. Its aim was to tell people nobody has a perfect body so not to be punishing ourselves for not being flawless, it was also aimed at women who were a bit "plus size" not to feel like they were absolute elephants.
All of the above is excellent IMO - can't fault it.

But then the message became distorted and stuff came out like "No matter how big you are, you're perfect" despite the dangers of obesity, yet the dangers of being underweight were happily and rightly acknowledged.
I agree totally that people who are very overweight should not be put down (like Katie Hopkins' trolling thing etc) - it's only going to make them feel worse and eat more anyway. This thing about tough love getting the message through is bull**** IMO - positivity and encouragement and getting to the root of why the person is addicted to the food should be the approach.

The message also became distorted to the point that body positivity did not have to apply to "skinny bitches" which is just crazy double standards all together.

Some of the song's message is good - curvy (as in the women in the video, not obese) is considered sexy, not just super slim. But not all guys prefer a lot of booty - plenty of guys prefer slim women to curvy women, and that is simply their personal preference and there's nothing wrong with it. What guys find sexy should hardly be such an important focus when it comes to this question too - it's one element all right but it always seems to become the primary focal point: "Men prefer real women" etc.

panda100

I HATE that 'All about that Bass' song, it is insulting to us skinny women. Nothing wrong with being a stick figure thank you very much.

TheBeardedLady

panda100 wrote: »

I HATE that 'All about that Bass' song, it is insulting to us skinny women. Nothing wrong with being a stick figure thank you very much.

It's a pretty horrible song alright (although if you ignore the lyrics, quite catchy).

Lux23

I have noticed that some women who complain about 'skinny shaming' do so just so they can draw attention to the fact that they are skinny. You know the types, they are 5'6 and wear a size 8 in a pair of jeans, yet say things like - I ate a whole chinese last night, oh I am such a fat pig.

Am I skinny shaming now?

IvyTheTerrible

Lux23 wrote: »

I have noticed that some women who complain about 'skinny shaming' do so just so they can draw attention to the fact that they are skinny. You know the types, they are 5'6 and wear a size 8 in a pair of jeans, yet say things like - I ate a whole chinese last night, oh I am such a fat pig.

Am I skinny shaming now?

But how do you know that it's to draw attention to themselves? Perhaps it does really bother them?

Lux23

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

But how do you know that it's to draw attention to themselves? Perhaps it does really bother them?

Because they are immature, attention whores. I know chubby women who are the same.

Oh, here I am stuffing myself with chocolate - oh I am so fat, bla, bla, bla. All they want you to say is 'oh you're not fat, don't be silly'. I just remain silent.

Like I said in my original post, some women.

Tasden

Lux23 wrote: »

Because they are immature, attention whores. I know chubby women who are the same.

Oh, here I am stuffing myself with chocolate - oh I am so fat, bla, bla, bla. All they want you to say is 'oh you're not fat, don't be silly'. I just remain silent.

Like I said in my original post, some women.

Are you sure they're always saying it in relation to their weight and not just saying that they aren't happy with their eating habits in general? Like they feel they should stop pigging out because its bad for them rather than its making them "fat".

I try to watch what i eat and if I'm out and order a healthy option or refuse a sweet or whatever people would say I don't need to etc but its nothing to do with weight management most of the time its that I wont feel heathy/good/energetic if I stuff myself with crap. And its definitely not attention seeking.

FairytaleGirl

I dont really agree with the whole skinny shame thing tbh. I mean I acknowledge it does exist, and can see why it does bother some girls, but to be honest - when 99% of media/fashion is saying skinny is beautiful, some shops stock a size 6 (for a grown woman ) and yet don't stock past a size 12, and style at the moment encompasses crop tops and the like - it's much, much tougher to be on the 'bigger' end of the scale.
If clothes are literally made to look good on you, you don't have to worry about whether you look nice or not and you're what's considered 'beautiful' by the majority, then suck it up if someone passes comment on your weight.

I say this as a size 12 by the way.

meeeeh

Tasden wrote: »

Are you sure they're always saying it in relation to their weight and not just saying that they aren't happy with their eating habits in general? Like they feel they should stop pigging out because its bad for them rather than its making them "fat".

I try to watch what i eat and if I'm out and order a healthy option or refuse a sweet or whatever people would say I don't need to etc but its nothing to do with weight management most of the time its that I wont feel heathy/good/energetic if I stuff myself with crap. And its definitely not attention seeking.

Oh I am so fat statements have hardly anything to do with eating habits. You also have oh I'm so stupid, silly, shy or whatever statements that people like to say. And then ignore you for months if you agree with them...

Btw as far as clothing brands are concerned, there are plenty of women who fit size six or even smaller. Especially in Asia, but in general there are differences between nations. Italian, Spanish or French sizing is smaller than UK or German and it has a lot to do with body types in those countries. But to be perfectly blunt weight issues are class issues. There is no problem finding something size 22 in New Look and there is very little chance you will find it in Dior. There is also a lot smaller chance that someone who can afford Dior will be size 22. Fashion industry is also a business that responds to what sells and how it sells.

Tasden

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh I am so fat statements have hardly anything to do with eating habits. You also have oh I'm so stupid, silly, shy or whatever statements that people like to say. And then ignore you for months if you agree with them...

Ah yeah i know but "oh god i need to stop eating like a pig" or whatever could.
Also I consider myself pretty intelligent, or at the very least I don't consider myself stupid, but I regularly do silly things or make stupid mistakes and I would say "I'm an idiot" or whatever, one flippant comment wouldn't necessarily mean I think I, as a whole, am stupid though.


I'm size 8, sometimes 6 or 10 depending on the store. I would be classed as slim, but my bum can get pretty big and if I get lazy or am busy and eat junk regularly I would develop a bit of a belly. If i make a comment saying I need to lose weight or I'm putting on weight so need to stop eating junk (something every single one of my friends would have said at some point) my friends would look at me like I've got five heads, ok so I'm not overweight and I'm much slimmer than most but that doesn't mean I'm attention seeking for saying it. Now if I started saying "oh my gawwd look at the size of me I'm huuuge" then yeah obviously, but just because a slim woman feels "fatter" or that they need to lose weight etc, people seem to think its not genuine or that they shouldn't feel that way because they're not above a size 16 or something, or even worse- that its attention seeking. Fair enough if they say it repeatedly and whatnot but I don't get why people think slimmer people saying it is automatically a cry for attention.

paddy1990

Lux23 wrote: »

Because they are immature, attention whores. I know chubby women who are the same.

Oh, here I am stuffing myself with chocolate - oh I am so fat, bla, bla, bla. All they want you to say is 'oh you're not fat, don't be silly'. I just remain silent.

Like I said in my original post, some women.

Have to agree with this.

Good observation.

beks101

Tasden wrote: »

If i make a comment saying I need to lose weight or I'm putting on weight so need to stop eating junk (something every single one of my friends would have said at some point) my friends would look at me like I've got five heads, ok so I'm not overweight and I'm much slimmer than most but that doesn't mean I'm attention seeking for saying it. Now if I started saying "oh my gawwd look at the size of me I'm huuuge" then yeah obviously, but just because a slim woman feels "fatter" or that they need to lose weight etc, people seem to think its not genuine or that they shouldn't feel that way because they're not above a size 16 or something, or even worse- that its attention seeking. Fair enough if they say it repeatedly and whatnot but I don't get why people think slimmer people saying it is automatically a cry for attention.

I guess to hear a size 6 or 8 woman say "oh I'm such a pig, I need to stop eating crap....I've gained so much weight" etc can feel like a slap in the face to those in her company who may be several sizes bigger and already self-conscious about themselves.

IME it can actually be the slimmer women who will say things like this frequently - perhaps because they genuinely watch what they eat and would already be health-conscious (hence the smaller size).

A friend of mine is very lithe and all limbs, and for as long as I've known her she's thrown out the aul 'god I need to stop eating so much...I can feel myself gaining weight' etc. She's otherwise got a healthy attitude towards food, eats what she wants, but in significantly smaller portions to most of the rest of her friends - just because that's how she is. But eating the odd takeaway or dessert etc WILL give her an attack of the guilts and I've noticed it can make others feel uncomfortable - because they have bigger appetites, are a few sizes up and would be uber-aware of that.

I don't think anyone should have to withhold how they're feeling about themselves to account for others' insecurities, but I guess an awareness of how weight is such a minefield among the female population generally and the fact that drawing attention to your own slim figure can feel like a judgement call on other women wouldn't go astray.

It's why I'm loathe to ever bring these issues up when I'm with friends, except my very close ones who I'd feel more comfortable confiding in. Besides all else, harping on about weight and calories and body fat and the gym is just a tedious merry-go-round as a topic of conversation and not something on which I'd seek to focus too much attention. There's so many more interesting things to talk about and on which to define ourselves tbh.

Thoie

Any thread I read on Boards about weight (either under or over weight) is ****ing depressing. You get the same comments every bloody time about "it's not healthy, it's not this, it's not that".

You know who gets to comment on what's healthy for me? My GP, ideally backed up with science - blood tests, measurements, and more importantly, a plan to help you change. If you're not my GP or an immediate family member, my bloody health is no concern of yours.

Someone will now say "oh, we're all paying for everyone's health issues". If that's the case, remember the next time you see a cancer patient to remind them that they're costing you a fortune. Or if you see someone with an amputation, don't forget to point out that was a very expensive operation - think of the number of more minor surgeries that could have been performed during that time. How about your friend with depression? Should they be yelled at on the street, and then be told "it's not healthy, so they should suck it up"? Think that's a bit harsh, and no decent person would dream of talking to people like that? Then make sure you mind your own business, and let the doctors look after the health side of things.

Tasden

beks101 wrote: »

I guess to hear a size 6 or 8 woman say "oh I'm such a pig, I need to stop eating crap....I've gained so much weight" etc can feel like a slap in the face to those in her company who may be several sizes bigger and already self-conscious about themselves.

IME it can actually be the slimmer women who will say things like this frequently - perhaps because they genuinely watch what they eat and would already be health-conscious (hence the smaller size).

A friend of mine is very lithe and all limbs, and for as long as I've known her she's thrown out the aul 'god I need to stop eating so much...I can feel myself gaining weight' etc. She's otherwise got a healthy attitude towards food, eats what she wants, but in significantly smaller portions to most of the rest of her friends - just because that's how she is. But eating the odd takeaway or dessert etc WILL give her an attack of the guilts and I've noticed it can make others feel uncomfortable - because they have bigger appetites, are a few sizes up and would be uber-aware of that.

I don't think anyone should have to withhold how they're feeling about themselves to account for others' insecurities, but I guess an awareness of how weight is such a minefield among the female population generally and the fact that drawing attention to your own slim figure can feel like a judgement call on other women wouldn't go astray.

I get what you're saying and I suppose in a way its a fair point, but a woman who is naturally slim- which isn't always down to diet- putting on weight and feeling down in themselves because of it is just as valid as someone who is larger and feeling the exact same way.

Its like saying to someone with wrinkles/roseacea "don't complain about your bad skin cause some people have acne and you'll make them uncomfortable drawing attention to it". I personally am the same as you, i don't really discuss my body at all with friends but if I'm confiding in a friends when the subject arises and I'm telling them I feel a certain way if they were thinking badly of me for it or that i was attention seeking or thinking I was being inconsiderate because its some kind of "slap in the face" I'd be extremely disappointed.

I obviously wouldn't sit at a weight watchers meeting and say to a size 22 woman that I know is insecure "omg i am the fattest person ever!!", that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking if a group of friends are discussing joining a gym or something where the topic arises naturally and a slim girl says something like "yeah my belly is a problem lately, I'd love to tone up" or whatever other example that is obviously not attention seeking, the slim woman can be just as insecure as the larger women and I don't see why she should have to censor her comments or whatever just to accommodate those who may be larger and insecure. We're all women, we all have our insecurities and if a slim woman feels a certain way about her body its no less valid just because shes slim and can fit into certain store sizes.

beks101

Tasden wrote: »

We're all women, we all have our insecurities and if a slim woman feels a certain way about her body its no less valid just because shes slim and can fit into certain store sizes.

I totally agree with you.

I guess it's just the social context of women and weight that loads this stuff with so much more meaning than it deserves. To the point where it's almost impervious to analogies - there's just no subject that comes close to the level to which weight can dominate, define and determine a woman's 'value', how she feels about herself, how 'attractive' she is deemed to be to the general public etc.

This is beat into us from long before we can even remember in many cases and although most of us will have friends - or perhaps are ourselves women who are completely comfortable and confident about our size and couldn't give a flying fcuk about anyone else - in a general sense, it's a touchy issue.

Personally, I'd have a very few friends (like, 2) and then family members who I will talk to about weight issues, throw out those innocuous statements about feeling lethargic and need to fix my diet etc... but it's not the kind of thing I'd discuss with colleagues, for example, or acquaintances, or any general group of people I'm with. You just don't know how it's going to be received and I don't like to draw attention to myself - or unintentionally - somebody else's insecurities.

And I don't want to be that girl who harps on and on about her weight. I'd find that a bit belittling to my character and embarrassing.

Tasden

beks101 wrote: »

I guess it's just the social context of women and weight that loads this stuff with so much more meaning than it deserves. To the point where it's almost impervious to analogies - there's just no subject that comes close to the level to which weigh
Personally, I'd have a very few friends (like, 2) and then family members who I will talk to about weight issues, throw out those innocuous statements about feeling lethargic and need to fix my diet etc... but it's not the kind of thing I'd discuss with colleagues, for example, or acquaintances, or any general group of people I'm with. You just don't know how it's going to be received and I don't like to draw attention to myself - or unintentionally - somebody else's insecurities.

And I don't want to be that girl who harps on and on about her weight. I'd find that a bit belittling to my character and embarrassing.

I think this is why people get annoyed about the skinny shaming issue because we all know weight is a huge issue for so many people (even if not for you personally) and generally nowadays if someone were to flippantly insult a woman for her being larger than "normal" you'd get told off for it , or at least I'd hope you would, whereas its now "cool" or accepted to take a cheap shot at skinny women. Neither should be done.

Sure even if you try the whole accepting yourself as you are and being confident in your skin you then you're nearly guaranteed to get comments about being vain/arrogant or its assumed you don't have insecurities. Everyone just needs to be, like you say, considerate of the fact that everyone has their own battles no matter what they look like and nobody has a more valid insecurity or one that is "ok" or not to pass comment on in a negative way.

Tarzana

Lux23 wrote: »

I have noticed that some women who complain about 'skinny shaming' do so just so they can draw attention to the fact that they are skinny. You know the types, they are 5'6 and wear a size 8 in a pair of jeans, yet say things like - I ate a whole chinese last night, oh I am such a fat pig.

Am I skinny shaming now?

I also think that some people who lambast 'skinny shaming' and act outraged at it are just using it as another, more subtle, way to voice their low tolerance for overweight people.

Dreannz

I am 5ft3 and I have always had a healthy BMI . I was a size 10 , I had curves and dd boobs.
Due to illness the last few months I've lost 17 kilos of weight , that's about three stone. I cannot not eat meals . I cannot hold down food. I spend days on end vomiting and in hospital on Iv fluids and anti sickness meds to try control it.
I am now skeletal looking and I am so conscious of my body shape now, and I know people who are even thinner than me ,that work to be that thin.
My doctors have told me I am malnourished and at risk if cardiac arrest now .
I am on calorie shots, liquid meals ect to try put on weight.

My cousin is on the other side of the scale she is trying to loose weight. We both go shopping together and get upset when a size 6 is too big for me and a size 14 is too small for her.

Just because we have different body shapes I want to put on weight she wants to loose it doesn't mean we can't relate to each other. We both have the same issues and insecurities.
And we talk to each other about it. I dint feel bad saying to her I'm upset because my size 6 jeans don't fit me anymore.

Tasden

Hope you start getting more healthy soon and feeling better in yourself, sounds awful

Shakespeare's Sister

Hope you get better soon Dreannz, that must be awful.
I'm not comparing myself to you, as your situation is more extreme, but it's relevant: I remember getting so skinny that I could see my ribcage - it was extremely upsetting, NOT the jackpot that it can be made out to be.

Tasden

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Hope you get better soon Dreannz, that must be awful.
I'm not comparing myself to you, as your situation is more extreme, but it's relevant: I remember getting so skinny that I could see my ribcage - it was extremely upsetting, NOT the jackpot that it can be made out to be.

Yeah for a while I had the ribs and then a little pouch belly as well :pac: not a good look!

MagicMarker

Inanna wrote: »

Look, I'm gay. I get a lot of **** for that (far worse than these people have ever had to put up with) and I didn't have any choice in the matter. I didn't take any actions that led to me becoming gay. Yet I see these gormless wonders in the "fat shaming" movement going on about how hard they have it and isn't it awful what they have to put up with?

It pisses me off that they complain about the consequences of something they chose. And just so we're clear (because I can already envision the kinds of objections I'll meet) I'm talking about consequences that can reasonably be foreseen.

It's so sad that a member of the LGBT community lowers themselves to this kind of victim blaming.

I don't believe anyone chooses to be ridiculed. I also don't think any fat person woke up one skinny day and said 'hey, I think I'll be fat for a while'. It's usually far more complicated than that.

beks101

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Hope you get better soon Dreannz, that must be awful.
I'm not comparing myself to you, as your situation is more extreme, but it's relevant: I remember getting so skinny that I could see my ribcage - it was extremely upsetting, NOT the jackpot that it can be made out to be.

Ugh, that brought back an horrific memory. I remember getting so thin that I could see my ribcage and I was thrilled, saw it as a personal achievement and freaked OUT when it disappeared again. I.E I started to recover, at least physically, from an eating disorder.

Not sure how relevant that is to this thread, it was just a moment of visceral reminiscing that I had. I guess the fact that eating disorders and eating distresses and skewed body image are so, so prevalent that drawing negative attention to someone's body is always a roll of the dice, and one that could contribute to a massive amount of agony and headfcuk for any individual.

Shakespeare's Sister

Lux23 wrote: »

Because they are immature, attention whores. I know chubby women who are the same.

Oh, here I am stuffing myself with chocolate - oh I am so fat, bla, bla, bla. All they want you to say is 'oh you're not fat, don't be silly'. I just remain silent.

Like I said in my original post, some women.

Was at a hen recently enough and one of the bride's friends (size 6-8) was going on about her huge ass to me (size 12-14) - I just said nothing too. But I did think also that she might genuinely have a distorted view of herself, and maybe her ass was "big" in comparison to the rest of her tiny frame.

Thoie wrote: »

Any thread I read on Boards about weight (either under or over weight) is ****ing depressing. You get the same comments every bloody time about "it's not healthy, it's not this, it's not that".

You know who gets to comment on what's healthy for me? My GP, ideally backed up with science - blood tests, measurements, and more importantly, a plan to help you change. If you're not my GP or an immediate family member, my bloody health is no concern of yours.

Someone will now say "oh, we're all paying for everyone's health issues". If that's the case, remember the next time you see a cancer patient to remind them that they're costing you a fortune. Or if you see someone with an amputation, don't forget to point out that was a very expensive operation - think of the number of more minor surgeries that could have been performed during that time. How about your friend with depression? Should they be yelled at on the street, and then be told "it's not healthy, so they should suck it up"? Think that's a bit harsh, and no decent person would dream of talking to people like that? Then make sure you mind your own business, and let the doctors look after the health side of things.

I wish people wouldn't preach at people not to say being overweight is unhealthy. It IS unhealthy. I have put on weight recently due to being on steroids and I am happy to say I'm not healthy, and I feel it. A doctor's evaluation is not needed - there is plenty of information and support out there. This aggressive "You're in no position to say it's unhealthy" thing is denial.

Obviously nobody should shout crap at anyone on the street.

Cancer patients and amputees don't always end up in that situation due to lifestyle choices either. I know being overweight can be due to psychological factors and it can be complicated, but comparing a fat person to a cancer patient/amputee... is a bit much now really. I can do something about the weight I've put on, which is miles off someone undergoing chemo/radiotherapy or someone undergoing limb removal.

Tarzana

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Hope you get better soon Dreannz, that must be awful.
I'm not comparing myself to you, as your situation is more extreme, but it's relevant: I remember getting so skinny that I could see my ribcage - it was extremely upsetting, NOT the jackpot that it can be made out to be.

Yeah, I lost a stone in a week in hospital a few years back. Could not believe all the "Lucky bitch!" comments I got on my exit. Um no, I nearly died. And was under strict orders from the the docs to gain it back. It came from a week of not being able to eat ANYTHING and my body looked totally crap for it too, like I was wasting. Muscle tone had disappeared.

BonsaiKitten

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I dont really agree with the whole skinny shame thing tbh. I mean I acknowledge it does exist, and can see why it does bother some girls, but to be honest - when 99% of media/fashion is saying skinny is beautiful, some shops stock a size 6 (for a grown woman ) and yet don't stock past a size 12, and style at the moment encompasses crop tops and the like - it's much, much tougher to be on the 'bigger' end of the scale.
If clothes are literally made to look good on you, you don't have to worry about whether you look nice or not and you're what's considered 'beautiful' by the majority, then suck it up if someone passes comment on your weight.

I say this as a size 12 by the way.

And? There is nothing wrong with being a size 6. Teen girls are huge fashion consumers and would be smaller than adult women. For adults, height and build play a huge part in it, and let's not forget vanity sizing. So some shops stocking a 6 is hardly a shocking statistic.

And why should they suck it up if someone comments about their weight? How does having a higher bmi give the other person the right to say it?

If you (before someone says it,not you specifically, a hypothetical you) wouldn't like someone calling you a tub of lard or having your own gravitational field then comments like "you're wasting away" or "if you turned sideways you'd disappear" shouldn't be on either.

I don't give a damn about it being skinny shaming/fat oppression blah blah, or whatever justifications people come up with. Bitchy comments are bitchy comments.

Thoie

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I wish people wouldn't preach at people not to say being overweight is unhealthy. It IS unhealthy. I have put on weight recently due to being on steroids and I am happy to say I'm not healthy, and I feel it. A doctor's evaluation is not needed - there is plenty of information and support out there. This aggressive "You're in no position to say it's unhealthy" thing is denial.

Obviously nobody should shout crap at anyone on the street.

Cancer patients and amputees don't always end up in that situation due to lifestyle choices either. I know being overweight can be due to psychological factors and it can be complicated, but comparing a fat person to a cancer patient/amputee... is a bit much now really. I can do something about the weight I've put on, which is miles off someone undergoing chemo/radiotherapy or someone undergoing limb removal.

You're right, I was quite annoyed at the time. Being under/overweight is unhealthy - that's an undisputable fact. What I disagree with is people justifying making unasked for comments on other people's weight (such as yelling things in the street, or just being bitchy on a 1:1 basis, or even just rolling your eyes when you see someone fat in the gym) by saying "oh, but it's unhealthy" or "it is my business, my taxes will have to pay for their health care".

The correct response to seeing a fat person in the gym (which 90% of adults manage) is to silently think "good for them" then go about your business. Even close friends and family telling someone they're at an unhealthy weight isn't particularly helpful - regardless of how it was meant, it just implies that you're both fat/skinny AND too stupid to realise it.

Someone who puts on a kilo over Christmas/winter will be aware of it, and knows the causes and the solution. Someone who is habitually 10, 20, 50 kilos overweight needs proper assistance. "Hey, did you know you're really skinny?" doesn't help.

It's all coming back to this idea of shaming people. There is a significant portion of the population who feel it's OK to shame people because of their weight, on the basis that it's a health issue. The leap they make is from "we should raise awareness about this health issue that affects society, and will have long term implications" to "I will raise awareness by being pass remarkable".

Imagine if people started groping strangers breasts/testicles because it's important from a health perspective to ensure that people check regularly for lumps?

Shakespeare's Sister

Yeh the "It's unhealthy" thing is often just a smokescreen for "I want to belittle overweight people".

The Cool

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Was at a hen recently enough and one of the bride's friends (size 6-8) was going on about her huge ass to me (size 12-14) - I just said nothing too. But I did think also that she might genuinely have a distorted view of herself, and maybe her ass was "big" in comparison to the rest of her tiny frame.

This is what I hate. You're right, it's possible that she may have had a distorted view of her self but at the same time, you're going to be 100% aware that somebody's a few sizes bigger than you, and in that case, it's horrible to start talking about how big your bum is when yours is the smallest.

It reminded me of a situation when I was in 5th year of school, I was a boarder and there were 5 girls in my dorm. One was an Irish dancer and very lean and muscular, not much body fat but very toned. One evening she was trying on an outfit in our dorm, put her fingers around her thighs and started this crap of "oh, my legs are SO FAT" - because there was a gap of about an inch between her thumbs when she tried to stretch her hand around her thighs. This girl was a size 8/10; the other 4 of us were sizes 10, 12, and 14-16. I was the biggest out of us all, and for her to be saying that her thighs was fat was like saying that mine were absolutely disgustingly massive.

Don't get me wrong, it's natural to feel bad about yourself sometimes no matter what your size, but I think by going on about it to others - especially younger women - you are adding to the idea of being ugly/not of value/whatever if you're not a certain size.

Shakespeare's Sister

Yeh it's tactless and stupid.
But I think too that it's to do with just being so absorbed in themselves and not really noticing/thinking about everyone else. The insults are not malicious, or even thought of.

My friend's sister was telling me about the reverse effect - she used to be overweight and worked in a bank; a regular customer who was anorexic used to compliment her all the time as to how beautiful she looked (she is very beautiful, and always impeccably groomed) - despite the apparent aversion anorexic people have to excess weight. But that can be the thing with anorexia - only judging yourself and being fine with the world around you (even though it can be the reverse too).

IvyTheTerrible

I don't know, I don't think you always know what's inside the head of someone who you think might be an "attention whore".
My sister was very overweight/obese from about the age of 7 til the age of 18, when she worked very hard to lose the weight. She was really miserable basically the whole way through school because of it (lots of bullying, other stuff). Now she is a normal weight, but she always worries that she'll go back to how she was, so she guilt trips herself when she eats something "fattening". So people might see her saying "oh I'm making a pig of myself" and think she's looking for attention but nothing could be further from the truth.

Shakespeare's Sister

That's so true. I have two friends who both lost a huge amount of weight - one went to a size 8-10, the other to a size 6-8.
I got the winter vomiting bug/noro-virus one year and lost a relatively high amount of weight in a few days (put it all back on very quickly and then some - it was Christmas :pac:) and when I told them about this particular outcome of the noro-virus, they suddenly started hugging me and saying they'd like to snog me and stuff.

When I said this really wasn't a good outlook considering they had lost all the weight they could possibly lose, they came to their senses, and then made the point that once you've ever been big, you'll always feel big, even when you know you aren't.
The psychology of all this stuff is mad.

DoYouEvenLift

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think it's disgusting to openly judge or shame anyone over how their body looks.

To me it says much more about the commenter and where they place value than anything else.

Ftfy

We all judge, even if just subconsciously, other people. How someone looks physically is literally the first thing you see before they even open their mouth so we normally do assess their image but of course that changes once you actually get to talk to them and then you reach whatever your final opinion of them as a whole person. But to openly let the person know whatever flaws you think they have and belittle them for them, yeah that's being an ass hole.

Thoie wrote: »

Any thread I read on Boards about weight (either under or over weight) is ****ing depressing. You get the same comments every bloody time about "it's not healthy, it's not this, it's not that".

You know who gets to comment on what's healthy for me? My GP, ideally backed up with science - blood tests, measurements, and more importantly, a plan to help you change. If you're not my GP or an immediate family member, my bloody health is no concern of yours.

Someone will now say "oh, we're all paying for everyone's health issues". If that's the case, remember the next time you see a cancer patient to remind them that they're costing you a fortune. Or if you see someone with an amputation, don't forget to point out that was a very expensive operation - think of the number of more minor surgeries that could have been performed during that time. How about your friend with depression? Should they be yelled at on the street, and then be told "it's not healthy, so they should suck it up"? Think that's a bit harsh, and no decent person would dream of talking to people like that? Then make sure you mind your own business, and let the doctors look after the health side of things.

That comparison isn't really right. People with cancer didn't choose to get it. People who are obese almost always choose to be obese, the few exceptions being those with genuine medical issues and medication side effects that cause them to gain weight.

meeeeh

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Ftfy
That comparison isn't really right. People with cancer didn't choose to get it. People who are obese almost always choose to be obese, the few exceptions being those with genuine medical issues and medication side effects that cause them to gain weight.

You didn't really think this through, did you? Cancer is very often the result of lifestyle choices. You are a lot more likely to be obese if you are born into the poorer areas. The same areas where you will be a lot less likely to go to third level education and average income is lower. I'm not saying that personal responsibility doesn't come into it but you are simplifying things a lot. Especially when we are talking about obese children.

I realize obesity is a problem and something has to be done about it but I wish people wouldn't make sweeping generalizations about "the fat people" so they would feel better about themselves.

Thoie

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

That comparison isn't really right. People with cancer didn't choose to get it. People who are obese almost always choose to be obese, the few exceptions being those with genuine medical issues and medication side effects that cause them to gain weight.

I didn't explain myself well in the first post, but was talking about using "the health costs/it's unhealthy" as an excuse to be rude to people who are not a healthy weight. Fat/skinny people are not the only ones to cost us money on healthcare, but as a society we would never think of "shaming" any other group in public the same way. Maybe the amputee lost a limb through some choice they made, maybe it was a freak accident, maybe the cancer patient made choices that led to their awful diagnosis (and believe me, I know exactly how awful cancer is, and what it does to people), maybe it was just entirely random (as it often is). Maybe the person with liver problems has them through choices they made, or maybe it was a congenital defect.

You cannot tell by looking at someone what led to where they are now, and no-one would dream of passing remarks on cancer patients/amputees etc. But commenting on a stranger's (or an acquaintance's) weight seems to be perfectly acceptable, and one of the excuses often given is that "Well, it's unhealthy".

Lots of people are unhealthy for a million different reasons, it doesn't give anyone the excuse to wander around commenting on it.

Choccie Lover

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I dont really agree with the whole skinny shame thing tbh. I mean I acknowledge it does exist, and can see why it does bother some girls, but to be honest - when 99% of media/fashion is saying skinny is beautiful, some shops stock a size 6 (for a grown woman ) and yet don't stock past a size 12, and style at the moment encompasses crop tops and the like - it's much, much tougher to be on the 'bigger' end of the scale.
If clothes are literally made to look good on you, you don't have to worry about whether you look nice or not and you're what's considered 'beautiful' by the majority, then suck it up if someone passes comment on your weight.

I say this as a size 12 by the way.

There are many 'grown women' that are a size 6. I am one of them, as is my sister and a lot of people I know (and healthy with that). Your comment about 'grown women' is a bit clumsy and comes across poorly.

It's poor form though that some stores don't stock past a 12. All sizes should be accommodated.

meeeeh

Choccie Lover wrote: »

It's poor form though that some stores don't stock past a 12. All sizes should be accommodated.

I actually don't agree with that. Sizing is only part of the story. Tailoring especially in premium brands is a lot more precise and does not fit all sizes. I know there is also some kind of snobbery present when certain brands refuse to cater for bigger sizes because they don't fit into their aesthetics. But in the same way plus size brands don't cater for smaller sizes. And a lot of brands in general don't cater for size six and even less for smaller sizes.

I don't think this has anything to do with skinny shaming or fat shaming but if you are plus size it is likely that you will be better served by plus size brands. Size six and 20 can't wear the same type of a cropped top. I think I am around size 12 (possibly 10 on top) and I am under no illusion that certain brands are not for me. Not because they don't sell my size but because their tailoring doesn't suit me. And I'm ok with that.

Neyite

I agree, people can get too hung up on sizes, when it really is a variable unit of measurement for clothes.

The first thing you learn about in dressmaking is to ignore what sizing you think you are, and re- measure yourself for each and every garment, reason being that a 16 in a Burda pattern might be a 12 in a Simplicity. I'm a general size 8 in most shops, but one dress I made was- according to the pattern- a size 8 on the bust, a 6 on the waist and a 16 on the hips.

So I go by actual inches on my measuring tape and what fits me best in the changing room rather than what's on the label.

DoYouEvenLift

meeeeh wrote: »

You didn't really think this through, did you? Cancer is very often the result of lifestyle choices. You are a lot more likely to be obese if you are born into the poorer areas. The same areas where you will be a lot less likely to go to third level education and average income is lower. I'm not saying that personal responsibility doesn't come into it but you are simplifying things a lot. Especially when we are talking about obese children.

I realize obesity is a problem and something has to be done about it but I wish people wouldn't make sweeping generalizations about "the fat people" so they would feel better about themselves.

I honestly didn't know that, links to stats from studies for these points? I'm having trouble thinking how being born into a poorer area would correlate to being more likely to be obese, food costs money so less money would result in less food and malnourishment if anything, no?

Dolbert

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

I honestly didn't know that, links to stats from studies for these points? I'm having trouble thinking how being born into a poorer area would correlate to being more likely to be obese, food costs money so less money would result in less food and malnourishment if anything, no?

You can be obese and malnourished on cheap convenience food. People in poorer socio-economic areas have less access to good nutritional education. Fresh, organic free-range produce is best for everyone but generally tends to be the preserve of the middle-class.