Immigration saturation point.

Electric Sheep

Chinasea wrote: »

Almost a fifth of people RESPONSIBLE for racial abuse are children, new figures have revealed.

WHICH starts in the playground propagated by myopic parents like you!

."Students, parents and teachers all have a role to ensure that racism is kept out of our classrooms, playgrounds and sporting arenas.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/huge-jump-in-racist-abuse-by-children-29873299.

BTW, do you happen to have any relatives abroad. Make sure they don't go into playgrounds, gawd knows who is watching them.

But that's different - sure everyone loves the Irish:rolleyes:

Cee-Jay-Cee

OP how can you tell the difference between say a Nigerian and a Ghanaian or a Latvian and an Estonian or a German and an Austrian?

anewme

Electric Sheep wrote: »

But that's different - sure everyone loves the Irish:rolleyes:

Except the Irish themselves, it would seem.

An awful lot of Paddy bashing on this thread, by the Irish themselves.

Are the Irish gone so PC and that they belittle themselves and their own culture for fear of being labelled as racist.

Comments include :
The foreign people go to the park but the Irish people sit in front of the TV or on a barstool.

Sure one person even said we are an ugly race (!) and would be better breeding with foreigners to improve our gene pool.

Bit of pride in yourself goes a long way.

Electric Sheep

anewme wrote: »

Except the Irish themselves, it would seem.

An awful lot of Paddy bashing on this thread, by the Irish themselves.

Are the Irish gone so PC and that they belittle themselves and their own culture for fear of being labelled as racist.

Comments include :
The foreign people go to the park but the Irish people sit in front of the TV or on a barstool.

Sure one person even said we are an ugly race (!) and would be better breeding with foreigners to improve our gene pool.

Bit of pride in yourself goes a long way.

Misplaced pride and arrogance goes nowhere. Except maybe to the pub:pac:

anewme

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Misplaced pride and arrogance goes nowhere. Except maybe to the pub:pac:

But only if you are Irish, it seems.

deseil

pavb2 wrote: »

I'm currently living/working in Birmingham one of the most multi cultural cities in the UK.

My experience is that you don't notice the colour of peoples skin or ethnicity you simply just see people as people like anybody else.

Maybe in Ireland we are the ones out of step and we shouldnt expect a single race society with little diversity and accept that multi culturism is the norm.

After all We all know that people are the same where ever we go
There is good and bad in everyone
We learn to live, and we learn to give
Each other what we need to survive together aliiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvvve

Are you for real?
I've spent alot of time in Birmingham I have friends and family who are born nand bred there,and it is definitely not integrated.
The Pakistanis have taken over whole areas of the city and white people have been driven from their homes and areas.

I don't know who you've been talking to over there but I've never experienced racism (hatred) so openly displayed anywhere I've ever been it is a totally divided city.

Electric Sheep

anewme wrote: »

But only if you are Irish, it seems.

Yes, the others are all out on the hiking trail or in the playground:P

NightOfTheHunt

Pherekydes wrote: »

Hmmm, how would that happen? It would take about half a million jumbo jets to fly them here. The far right was making this argument - that if we didn't stop Nigerian immigration we'd be flooded by their entire population - back in the 90s. Well, guess what? We didn't stop them coming and there was only 16,327 Nigerian-born people in the state on census night. Far from the flood claimed.

Think you missed my point entirely, I never mentioned the logistics of getting 160 million Nigerians here - or that it was even a remote possibility. I was stating there are hundreds of millions of people in the world who would be better off living in Ireland, forget about Nigeria - any country, Iraq, Syria, India, Mexico, whatever. And that the concept of "saturation point" very much exists, whether we are near it or not is another argument altogether.

Is it our civic duty as a country to accept and welcome as many immigrants looking to improve their lives up to the saturation point? How do you define that saturation point? % of population? Land mass? National debt to GDP ratio?

Electric Sheep

NightOfTheHunt wrote: »

Think you missed my point entirely, I never mentioned the logistics of getting 160 million Nigerians here - or that it was even a remote possibility. I was stating there are hundreds of millions of people in the world who would be better off living in Ireland, forget about Nigeria - any country, Iraq, Syria, India, Mexico, whatever. And that the concept of "saturation point" very much exists, whether we are near it or not is another argument altogether.

Is it our civic duty as a country to accept and welcome as many immigrants looking to improve their lives up to the saturation point? How do you define that saturation point? % of population? Land mass? National debt to GDP ratio?

I think you should call a think tank with the rest of the world and come up with the correct number of paddies they need to accept, then devise a reciprocal agreement.

anewme

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Yes, the others are all out on the hiking trail or in the playground:P

If you say so.

Only your opinion counts, after all.

Electric Sheep

anewme wrote: »

If you say so.

Only your opinion counts, after all.

Indeed:D

NightOfTheHunt

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I think you should call a think tank with the rest of the world and come up with the correct number of paddies they need to accept, then devise a reciprocal agreement.

I knew this tired old argument would come up, bla bla we Irish emigrated so therefore must now welcome immigration with open arms and without questioning the impact on our own country.

Ireland is an incredibly small country, by population, land mass, financial resources, etc. We are nowhere near the scale of countries like USA, Australia or even England and could not cope with their levels of immigration in my opinion.

To just blindly accept any level of immigration, without discussing the impacts is pure madness and would destroy the country.

Electric Sheep

NightOfTheHunt wrote: »

I knew this tired old argument would come up, bla bla we Irish emigrated so therefore must now welcome immigration with open arms and without questioning the impact on our own country.

Ireland is an incredibly small country, by population, land mass, financial resources, etc. We are nowhere near the scale of countries like USA, Australia or even England and could not cope with their levels of immigration in my opinion.

To just blindly accept any level of immigration, without discussing the impacts is pure madness and would destroy the country.

And everybody loves us. Because we are so special:rolleyes:

anewme

HIB wrote: »

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population

Some interesting figures from wikipedia.

Looking at some of the Western nations.

Apparently Ireland has a proportionally larger number of immigrants (as a % of population) than the UK, Germany, France and Holland. We also have marginally more than the US. But New Zealand, Australia, and Switzerland top the poll by a stretch. I know Australia actively encouraged immigration in the past (still do for immigrants with specific skills I think?). So that explains that. Maybe New Zealand do the same.

This was a very interesting statistic about our levels of immigrants in relation to other countries it it is correct.

Slot Machine

EunanMac wrote: »

What "foreigners", they were British

So why bring it up in a thread about immigration?

mylefttesticle

Naimless wrote: »

Has this country hit it's saturation point with immigration?
I ask this, as before I had my child I rarely ventured out into my neighbourhood, it was always work, home, socialising in town, parents house.

Now with my 3year old kid I'm out more especially in my area, and today it really made me question my post.

It's a simple observation, we were in a playground and I counted 24 people, us 2 are Irish every other person (22) in there was foreign, 4 different nationalitys I counted excluding ours.

Is this a normal ratio in other parts of dublin/Ireland, I'm looking for other peoples views of their area, as I think we have reached saturation point.

MODS if you want to remove parts feel free, but I feel I asked this with sensitivity in mind.

Cheer.

It is absolutely shocking and disturbing.


Where the hell are all the ''Irish'' Kids getting this open air exercise?

zindicato

NightOfTheHunt wrote: »

I knew this tired old argument would come up, bla bla we Irish emigrated so therefore must now welcome immigration with open arms and without questioning the impact on our own country.

Ireland is an incredibly small country, by population, land mass, financial resources, etc. We are nowhere near the scale of countries like USA, Australia or even England and could not cope with their levels of immigration in my opinion.

To just blindly accept any level of immigration, without discussing the impacts is pure madness and would destroy the country.

destroy the country....if all the so called immigrants be pushed out of the country ireland would be in its arse if you havent noticed most of this so called immigrants work and pay tax , there isnt a shortage of jobs truthfully in my experience peole are just picky bout thier jobs, when i lost my job years ago i signed on for 2 months and after that took jobs that were paying less than what i used to earn while i was sending out cvs and waiting for interviews, rather than just staying on the social like most of the people, heck there was a guy i knew ( neighbour) we sign on the same day in the same center .... who was looking at the fas vacancies posted kept checking off the available jobs, cos it wasnt what he studied for, he had to take a bus, it was night shifts, it was a manual job, it was embarrassing for his mates seeing him work there or taking jobs like that and then he tells me that this country is ****ed beacuse of all the foreigners taking our jobs....yeh right.
There is this guy at work now he's from the Philippines and i remembered he told me once..... that there is no social welfare where he comes from....... you work or your f*cked and if you get sick and you dont have money your basically ****ed he said if you dont persevere in school your gonna go nowhere in life. we take so many stuff for granted here cos we know that we have a social net to catch us.

Shakespeare's Sister

I dunno. Depends on the area. Overall, you could hardly say Ireland is really multi-ethnic. I haven't lived in Dublin for six or seven years but I didn't see it as being that full of foreign people when I lived there... maybe a lot has changed in a mere six or seven years though. I don't see it when I visit Dublin either however. Obviously I see immigrants, but not a "saturation" of them.
I live in a small city and definitely don't see it. Although, in recent days... I never thought it'd ever be said, but Portlaoise actually has become fierce multi-ethnic! :pac:
So maybe it's in specific pockets of Ireland. I don't have a problem with it, but I guess if I was living in an area where there were lots of unfamiliar cultures not integrating I might feel a bit anonymous. I definitely think people need to integrate/assimilate - and this can be done while also holding on to their own traditions. The apartment complex I live in does actually have a lot of foreign tenants/families but I don't notice any difference. They're all a nice, friendly bunch and do their cultural thing too, so I guess that would be the ideal - isn't always the case though, as can be seen in the UK.

moxin wrote: »

foreigners(non-nationals for the PC brigade).

Lol, "the PC brigade" do not use the term "non national"!

Colinf1212 wrote: »

Wow racist people make me sick. It's 2014 and people are still racist? Get with the picture, classist bigotry is the way forward! Bit of classism never killed anyone sure!

Not sure there's much racism on this thread to be fair.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

But that's different - sure everyone loves the Irish:rolleyes:

anewme wrote: »

Except the Irish themselves, it would seem.

Indeedly. It appears that in order to look really enlightened it's essential for some Irish people to self flagellate the sh-t out of themselves (when I say "themselves", it's not literally themselves though of course - when they're moaning about "us" they're referring to everyone else who's Irish, but not really their superior selves) but not dare say one slightly negative thing about aspects of another culture.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

And everybody loves us. Because we are so special:rolleyes:

No they don't, and no we're not. Relax with the venomous self loathing. You'll give yourself an ulcer.

Frank Grimes

anewme wrote: »

Are the Irish gone so PC and that they belittle themselves and their own culture for fear of being labelled as racist.

The self-deprecation thing predates the coup staged by the PC Brigade in recent years.

Shakespeare's Sister

Self deprecation is great IMO - a healthy attitude. If a person can laugh at themselves they have confidence.
Self loathing though, feeling inferior - just perpetuates any problems. Like, I know there is stuff in Irish society that needs to be improved for sure, but whingeing about how sh-t we are hardly addresses these.

anewme

Frank Grimes wrote: »

The self-deprecation thing predates the coup staged by the PC Brigade in recent years.

Probably does, to be fair, Irish in general are never good at accepting compliments and anyone who is prepared to stand over their own self worth is seen as arragant or preaching from a bar stool.

Hachiko

try getting over to England, soon normal 'English' will be extinct.!

bodice ripper

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Danes!

My Grandma has this lovely theory.

"Denmark must be lovely. You never meet a Dane, they must love it so much that they stay there."

Electric Sheep

anewme wrote: »

Probably does, to be fair, Irish in general are never good at accepting compliments and anyone who is prepared to stand over their own self worth is seen as arragant or preaching from a bar stool.

Yes, because it generally comes from a bar stool. Not from the playground or the hiking trail;)

Shakespeare's Sister

Gotta love Irish Uncle Toms.
Like Marty McFly's Irish ancestor in BTTFIII: "Yes surrrrr, I'll just take it up the hole surrrr - don't want any trouble now surrrr". :pac:

Irish subservience is even recognised in The Simpsons: "I took many a beatin'... but 'twas all in good fun!" http://simpsonswiki.com/w/images/thumb/4/40/Irish_man.png/250px-Irish_man.png

Pawn

Hachiko wrote: »

soon normal 'English' will be extinct.!

I see the rest of the world is returning a favour

anewme

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Yes, because it generally comes from a bar stool. Not from the playground or the hiking trail;)

I can't comment on your theory as I don't drink so I dont go to pubs.

EunanMac

bodice ripper wrote: »

My Grandma has this lovely theory.

"Denmark must be lovely. You never meet a Dane, they must love it so much that they stay there."

A very wise observation

Billy86

bodice ripper wrote: »

My Grandma has this lovely theory.

"Denmark must be lovely. You never meet a Dane, they must love it so much that they stay there."

Papa New Guinea, too!

Inanna

Hachiko wrote: »

try getting over to England, soon normal 'English' will be extinct.!

To those of you crowing about concerns towards immigration being seen as racist - take a good look at this.

Frank Grimes

Inanna wrote: »

To those of you crowing about concerns towards immigration being seen as racist - take a good look at this.

Yeah it's a pretty good example of scaremongering using claims that are not backed up with a shred of verifiable evidence.

Shakespeare's Sister

Inanna wrote: »

To those of you crowing about concerns towards immigration being seen as racist - take a good look at this.

What about it? Nobody's saying there aren't people opposed to mass immigration who don't have idiotic, ignorant views about immigrants.
But if people worry about it making us economically stretched (I don't think that will be an issue though) or about feeling a bit isolated in their own communities due to a lack of integration/assimilation (this may not be an unreasonable concern on occasion) then they should surely be able to have their say if doing so in a reasonable manner - it doesn't automatically make them racist imbeciles.

pavb2

deseil wrote: »

Are you for real?
I've spent alot of time in Birmingham I have friends and family who are born nand bred there,and it is definitely not integrated.
The Pakistanis have taken over whole areas of the city and white people have been driven from their homes and areas.

I don't know who you've been talking to over there but I've never experienced racism (hatred) so openly displayed anywhere I've ever been it is a totally divided city.

I didn't suggest the city was integrated and maybe it's not but integration isn't an absolute. its common knowledge in Birmingham that communities do have their own areas but that's not to say they're exclusively for those groups or indeed that they never stray from there.

Aston sparkhill sparkbrook are Asian communities made up of not only Pakistanis but Indians and bangladeshis and includes religions such as Sikhs,Hindus Muslims.

A lot of Irish live in Erdington along with the many Poles. Handsworth is where you ll find the afro Caribbean community? Walk into Birmingham City centre and you will see all nationalities and rarely any sign of racist tension, same applies to football matches or any other event you'd care to name

Have never heard of any white people being driven from their houses by Pakistanis.

So also having been born and bred in Birmingham like your relatives and friends and having spent over 30 years living in the city my point is that immigrants have been coming to Birmingham for more than 60 years and there is suprisingly little racist tension considering the ethnic diversity.

AlekSmart

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Self deprecation is great IMO - a healthy attitude. If a person can laugh at themselves they have confidence.
Self loathing though, feeling inferior - just perpetuates any problems. Like, I know there is stuff in Irish society that needs to be improved for sure, but whingeing about how sh-t we are hardly addresses these.

Good point,Ms Shakespeare.

The traditional "Irish" inferiority complex has developed ahead of the deprecation one.

Whereas,in the olden days we averted our gaze,pulled our forelock,doffed our flat caps and plámas'd our way to the top,that approach has become less effective as it's observers became more aware of it's desired effects.

It has been replaced by a somewhat modernized (yet every bit as effective) approach,in which we acknowledge our much improved status,whilst constantly proclaiming how much more we could (and should) be doing,were it not for the remaining peasantry,clinging doggedly to their desire for the olden-times

This broad church of Irish Self-Loathing is,I suspect,based largely upon a peculiar level of "Class Superiority",far more insidious than anything ever experienced in our former Imperial Ruler's territory.

If only we can dilute this Old Irishness,then all will be well,and people will start to love Ireland and the Irish again...Érin go bráth n'all that good shytt

EunanMac

deseil wrote: »

Are you for real?
I've spent alot of time in Birmingham I have friends and family who are born nand bred there,and it is definitely not integrated.
The Pakistanis have taken over whole areas of the city and white people have been driven from their homes and areas.

I don't know who you've been talking to over there but I've never experienced racism (hatred) so openly displayed anywhere I've ever been it is a totally divided city.

Like Rotherham, it does not compute with the boards script, computer says no.

Slot Machine

EunanMac wrote: »

Like Rotherham, it does not compute with the boards script, computer says no.

Slot Machine wrote: »

why bring it up in a thread about immigration?

Well?

EunanMac

Slot Machine wrote: »

Well?

A prime example of non integration, unless you count targeting and sexual abuse of white girls as integration.

Slot Machine

EunanMac wrote: »

A prime example of non integration, unless you count targeting and sexual abuse of white girls as integration.

But you said they're British.

EunanMac

Slot Machine wrote: »

But you said they're British.

They are British, and they didn't integrate

dxhound2005

zindicato wrote: »

destroy the country....if all the so called immigrants be pushed out of the country ireland would be in its arse if you havent noticed most of this so called immigrants work and pay tax , there isnt a shortage of jobs truthfully in my experience peole are just picky bout thier jobs, when i lost my job years ago i signed on for 2 months and after that took jobs that were paying less than what i used to earn while i was sending out cvs and waiting for interviews, rather than just staying on the social like most of the people, heck there was a guy i knew ( neighbour) we sign on the same day in the same center .... who was looking at the fas vacancies posted kept checking off the available jobs, cos it wasnt what he studied for, he had to take a bus, it was night shifts, it was a manual job, it was embarrassing for his mates seeing him work there or taking jobs like that and then he tells me that this country is ****ed beacuse of all the foreigners taking our jobs....yeh right.
There is this guy at work now he's from the Philippines and i remembered he told me once..... that there is no social welfare where he comes from....... you work or your f*cked and if you get sick and you dont have money your basically ****ed he said if you dont persevere in school your gonna go nowhere in life. we take so many stuff for granted here cos we know that we have a social net to catch us.

Correct. Ireland has arrived in the postition that it has to import workers to do the jobs that the locals won't do. It is a very new phenomenon here as the comparison of numbers from 2002 to 2011 will show e.g. an extra 120,000 Poles. In the main emigrants move for economic reasons and this new inflow into Ireland (not diminshed much by the so called austerity) is happening because of the economic conditions here. We are one of the most affluent countries in the world now. Congratulations.

No blame to the Irish, in harder times we went abroad to do the jobs that the locals wouldn't do in Britain and America over the years. But most of the Irish leaving now have jobs and those jobs are then available to immigrants as well as other Irish people if they want them.

Nodin

EunanMac wrote: »

They are British, and they didn't integrate

Trying to have your cake and eat it there son. It's one or the other.

EunanMac

Nodin wrote: »

Trying to have your cake and eat it there son. It's one or the other.

I'm not your son, luv
Integration has nothing to do with the passport or skin colour they hold, and they have not integrated.

Eramen

After expelling hundreds of thousands our own people through harsh waves of emigration, next year we are supposed to once again be experiencing surplus levels of immigration from EU and Rest of world sources.

And nobody stops to ask just what the fcuk is going on in this country or who is profiting from this situation? What an utter joke. We've truly reached a point beyond idiocy.

EunanMac

Eramen wrote: »

After expelling hundreds of thousands our own people through harsh waves of emigration, next year we are supposed to once again be experiencing surplus levels of immigration from EU and Rest of world sources.

And nobody stops to ask just what the fcuk is going on in this country / who profits from this situation? What an utter joke.

If the new Irish are willing to work for more realistic wages than the currently overpaid Irish graduates, I can't see the problem. We need to be more competitive and profitable, and more competition can only be a good thing for employers.

tayto lover

Gatling wrote: »

www.cso.ie/census#sthash.XkZPc18y.dpuf

The figures are from consensus 2012 and don't include the 20,000 who came
here in last 24 months

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/500000-foreign-nationals-are-now-calling-ireland-home-28817542.html

Very interesting.
Diversity is good but i wonder how many more the country could sustain?
Anyone know if we have a quota for immigrants?

Billy86

As much as people may or may not like it, when a large number of migrants come to a country the integration process is a two way street. History shows that when this happens, the locals inevitably take on some characteristics and customs that the migrants bring with them, as well as vice versa.

We are also only now beginning to move into having a sizeable second generation immigrant community, typically that is when the mutual integration process begins to kick into gear fully.

Anyone expecting Ireland and Irish people to not budge an inch culturally and for the incoming migrants to adapt everything about themselves to fit entirely into "traditional Irish culture" are frankly divorced from reality, in this regard.

Eramen

EunanMac wrote: »

If the new Irish are willing to work for more realistic wages than the currently overpaid Irish graduates, I can't see the problem. We need to be more competitive and profitable, and more competition can only be a good thing for employers.

I can't afford to live independently on these 'realistic wages' you speak of - which I am currently on - so I speak from experience. Many will never be able to afford to live in a decent place or at a decent standard with these continual [and artificially] depressed wages.

Also, it's been seen time and time again, that building an 'Americanised-multicultural' state consisting of a mere 'community of communities' is an economic quagmire, as latter generations of migrants become dependent on the state at a higher rate than the natives. This is the case from Sweden to England to Italy.

We should learn to form our own interpretation of what globalisation means to us, as Irish and as Europeans, and stop copying off this failed US model which we have slavishly co-opted. It is based on nothing else but greed and the faulty logic of 'permanent economic growth'.

We're better than this and should act accordingly.

EunanMac

Eramen wrote: »

I can't afford to live independently on these 'realistic wages' you speak of - which I am currently on - so I speak from experience. Many will never be able to afford to live in a decent place or at a decent standard with continual [and artificially] depressed wages.

Well you'd need to budget better, there are many posts on boards boasting how well they can live on 20k

Eramen

EunanMac wrote: »

Well you'd need to budget better, there are many posts on boards boasting how well they can live on 20k

I make my living off budgeting, along with other financial instruments, and I'm quite good at it. In Dublin a 20k salary equates to merely existing.

Stop acting stupid and drop the newspeak. It'll do you the world of good.

EunanMac

Eramen wrote: »

I make my living off budgeting, along with other financial instruments, and I'm quite good at it. In Dublin a 20k salary equates to merely existing.

Stop acting stupid and drop the newspeak. It'll do you the world of good.

You ad hominem argument is not very convincing, in fact it just showcases its weakness.