A way into Software Development

ItsFrugal

I'm wondering if someone with experience in software development could give me some advice on my strategy to get into the field.

I know the college degree vs self-taught debate has been done to death but this is a blend of both.

From my research I have found that the skills that are most widely demanded and have the highest level of entry positions are:
Java
Sql
Html/Css/Javascript

So focusing on these should yield the best results in terms of marketability. I can't justify the cost + time commitment of getting a degree in University. Simply because if I were to devote 4 years studying the above technologies and avoiding a lot of the "filler" courses that I would have to do in University, I believe I would have a skills edge on a graduate.

But, at the same time many of the job adverts require a degree to get started. To mitigate this, I'm getting some industry certs. I know people have a mixed opinion on the value of these but I think they can help me tick the education box that hiring managers like to have.

I'm currently doing:

- Java 7 Professional Developer, Oracle
- Database Administration Certificate, O'Rielly School

I'm thinking of doing:

- Udacity Nano Degree

I have also done:

- A 6 month internship building Java webapps, which was great because the developers were great people but also so over worked that I was thrown in the deep end. I basically worked until I fell asleep Monday to Saturday then recovered on Sunday, I didn't mind because I knew it was only for a few months and wanted to get the most out of it.

- CodeSchool - JQuery/backbone/coffeescript, Html/Css

This is my general trajectory at the moment but if anyone has some arguments as to why I'm doing it wrong or something I should include I'd appreciate your comments.

CaoimH_in

Why not a HDip?

ItsFrugal

CaoimH_in wrote: »

Why not a HDip?

I don't have a degree and HDip requires level 8. I'd also like to stay away from a brick and mortar institution if at all possible. I get way too restless in a classroom setting and would much rather work and learn as I go. I'd gadly take 4 years of internships over 4 years of classrooms.

zig

I think you're on the right track, I think an internship would be your best solution to top it all off. Im a firm believer that in this industry if you can prove you're good enough the question of a degree gets thrown out the door.

No ones going to leave a degree out of their recruitment process, but if you can get the interview the rest is down to you.

dmaor

Looks like you are on a good trajectory to me. In terms of skills as you seem to be focusing on front-end/web development you could also look into some MVC and HTTP frameworks e.g. in the Java world Spring MVC is always popular, although more recent frameworks such as Play are gaining popularity and are arguably easier to get going with.

ItsFrugal

dmaor wrote: »

Looks like you are on a good trajectory to me. In terms of skills as you seem to be focusing on front-end/web development you could also look into some MVC and HTTP frameworks e.g. in the Java world Spring MVC is always popular, although more recent frameworks such as Play are gaining popularity and are arguably easier to get going with.

Yeah, for the internship I used Spring, Hibernate and Wicket so I have the basics of them. Play is nice, I made a small app using it but I'll have to make it better before I try any interviews. Thanks for your input!

Jim2007

ItsFrugal wrote: »

So focusing on these should yield the best results in terms of marketability. I can't justify the cost + time commitment of getting a degree in University. Simply because if I were to devote 4 years studying the above technologies and avoiding a lot of the "filler" courses that I would have to do in University, I believe I would have a skills edge on a graduate.

Do you really thing that all graduates do is college courses??? Most of the graduates I interview have both college degree and experience - internships, contribute to open source projects, organise and lead local user groups etc....

Twenty five years ago when I started out out it was easy enough to get by if you were smart and had hands on skills, but that was then and this is now. Most young people starting out today have a degree and in a couple of years they will have both, where as you will still only have experience and when it comes to landing the interesting assignments they will the ones landing those positions. Because whatever you may think of a degree, most of the people making those decisions are not going to take a chance on someone that does not have the basics.

You really should try and get a degree if you can, part time, night school or whatever.

ItsFrugal

Jim2007 wrote: »

Do you really thing that all graduates do is college courses??? Most of the graduates I interview have both college degree and experience - internships, contribute to open source projects, organise and lead local user groups etc....

Twenty five years ago when I started out out it was easy enough to get by if you were smart and had hands on skills, but that was then and this is now. Most young people starting out today have a degree and in a couple of years they will have both, where as you will still only have experience and when it comes to landing the interesting assignments they will the ones landing those positions. Because whatever you may think of a degree, most of the people making those decisions are not going to take a chance on someone that does not have the basics.

You really should try and get a degree if you can, part time, night school or whatever.

I'm not really too worried about that. I can find a way past that by being creative.

Jim2007

ItsFrugal wrote: »

I'm not really too worried about that. I can find a way past that by being creative.

Guy, your application will be filtered out by an agent, HR assistant or someone in admin. In the normal course of events you will not even get to talk to an of the decision makers never mind convience them of your abilities.

Not alone are you going to have to be very good at what you do, you are going to have to be very lucky as well if you are to succeed. That does not sound like much of a foundation to build a career on. But you know best, right!

ItsFrugal

Jim2007 wrote: »

Guy, your application will be filtered out by an agent, HR assistant or someone in admin. In the normal course of events you will not even get to talk to an of the decision makers never mind convience them of your abilities.

Yes I will.

Jim2007 wrote: »

Not alone are you going to have to be very good at what you do, you are going to have to be very lucky as well if you are to succeed. That does not sound like much of a foundation to build a career on. But you know best, right!

I explicitly said that I'm not getting a degree and you came into the thread saying I need to get one. Since you didn't even take the time to understand my post I have no desire to listen to your advice.

ChRoMe

ItsFrugal wrote: »

Since you didn't even take the time to understand my post I have no desire to listen to your advice.

This applies way more to you than him....

I've done what you are attempting, senior developer with no degree, but your plan is flawed.

ItsFrugal

ChRoMe wrote: »

This applies way more to you than him....

Not an argument...

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've done what you are attempting, senior developer with no degree, but your plan is flawed.

Not an argument...

Ri_Nollaig

ItsFrugal wrote: »

Jim2007 wrote: »

Guy, your application will be filtered out by an agent, HR assistant or someone in admin. In the normal course of events you will not even get to talk to an of the decision makers never mind convience them of your abilities.

Yes I will.

...how exactly?
You will need to know someone high up and most likely in a small company to have any chance of just not being "filtered out" instantly.
Think of it from a companies point of view, why hire someone without a degree when they can easily get someone who does? Some might even argue a degree isn't enough and a masters is necessary to stand out! ha.
On top of all that IF you managed to get through you are only giving them an excuse to pay you peanuts.

Out of interest why are you so anti-degree? What age are you? And if you don't like the classroom style environment how do you think you'll find an office?

I explicitly said that I'm not getting a degree and you came into the thread saying I need to get one. Since you didn't even take the time to understand my post I have no desire to listen to your advice.

Well, atleast you take rejection well.

The Corinthian

ItsFrugal wrote: »

Yes I will.

Not an argument...

I explicitly said that I'm not getting a degree and you came into the thread saying I need to get one. Since you didn't even take the time to understand my post I have no desire to listen to your advice.

You came looking for advice. Unfortunately, that can mean that the advice you'll get may not be the advice you'd want to hear, so putting your fingers in your ears and humming lightly isn't really going to change that.

Reality is that software development is quite academic. You're constantly studying, even if not for exams, constantly researching, so if you "get way too restless in a classroom setting", then it might not be for you, because that kind of focus is a large part of the job.

Then there is the market reality; you will be constantly at a disadvantage as the vast majority of those going for the same jobs and promotions will have a degree. You can kid yourself that through talent - being "creative" - you'll rise above all this, but in reality, your CV will have hit the bin long before anyone's bothered to look at your portfolio.

And this is before one asks the questions of whether you really will have sufficient talent to separate you from the herd. And, who knows; maybe you do have that talent. Maybe you are special. Just like everyone else...

Realistically, outside of periods, such as the dotcom in the late nineties, where demand was so high that having a pulse was enough to get you a job, you may get into some form of 'software development', but without some form of academic qualification, what will happen is that eventually you'll get into some small cowboy coding outfit that uses unpaid internships as a source of cheap labour and are not too worried about the quality of what they output. It'll be almost certainly be Web related, BTW.

This will give sufficient work experience to get a foot in the door, as it were, but you'll find yourself pretty much stuck there, as more established, and thus technically advanced and ultimately better paying, companies will be unlikely to hire you over the competition.

So while perhaps you need not go for a full degree, although I do recommend you do, learning on the job or unrecognized online courses isn't enough. At least look at things such as City & Guilds recognized courses (if they still exist). But even then you'll remain at a disadvantage in the long term, which eventually all your talk about creativity is unlikely to overcome. So looking at doing some form of third level qualification sooner is going to save you a lot of time later.

If you really are willing to do what it takes, do so. Otherwise, don't kid yourself.

Overflow

I never took a degree but I did a 3 year course in Web Development & Multimedia. That was my foot in the door, starting at the bottom and working my way up. Without it I wouldn't have had a chance of getting a job.

I would highly recommend you do some sort of 3rd level course.

John_Mc

Yeah I agree with everything said above. I was involved with recruitment for a large IT consultancy company and without a minimum of a degree any applications were automatically filtered out. I'm now involved with a startup and we will apply the same criteria.

I have to say Frugal that your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. There are people here who are far more experienced and capable than you offering their advice, which you asked for, and you're just rejecting it in a completely obnoxious manner.

Let's just see where that gets you...

amen

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not an argument...

You came looking for advice. Unfortunately, that can mean that the advice you'll get may not be the advice you'd want to hear, so putting your fingers in your ears and humming lightly isn't really going to change that.

Reality is that software development is quite academic. You're constantly studying, even if not for exams, constantly researching, so if you "get way too restless in a classroom setting", then it might not be for you, because that kind of focus is a large part of the job.

Then there is the market reality; you will be constantly at a disadvantage as the vast majority of those going for the same jobs and promotions will have a degree. You can kid yourself that through talent - being "creative" - you'll rise above all this, but in reality, your CV will have hit the bin long before anyone's bothered to look at your portfolio.

And this is before one asks the questions of whether you really will have sufficient talent to separate you from the herd. And, who knows; maybe you do have that talent. Maybe you are special. Just like everyone else...

Realistically, outside of periods, such as the dotcom in the late nineties, where demand was so high that having a pulse was enough to get you a job, you may get into some form of 'software development', but without some form of academic qualification, what will happen is that eventually you'll get into some small cowboy coding outfit that uses unpaid internships as a source of cheap labour and are not too worried about the quality of what they output. It'll be almost certainly be Web related, BTW.

This will give sufficient work experience to get a foot in the door, as it were, but you'll find yourself pretty much stuck there, as more established, and thus technically advanced and ultimately better paying, companies will be unlikely to hire you over the competition.

So while perhaps you need not go for a full degree, although I do recommend you do, learning on the job or unrecognized online courses isn't enough. At least look at things such as City & Guilds recognized courses (if they still exist). But even then you'll remain at a disadvantage in the long term, which eventually all your talk about creativity is unlikely to overcome. So looking at doing some form of third level qualification sooner is going to save you a lot of time later.

If you really are willing to do what it takes, do so. Otherwise, don't kid yourself.

+1 to all of the above.

To the op you are prob on the right path to learning some useful skills and you may get a job but having a degree makes a big difference.

To me Software development over the last 40 years is exactly where engineering in general was 200 years ago; some educated professionals , some self trained, some mixture of both with good/bad people coming from all paths.

I think over the next few decades we will see a move to more robust standards and certification just like all other engineering disciplines. As part of this you may no longer be able to sign off or approve a solution unless you are registered.

Beano

I'd have to agree with most of the advice given here. For anybody starting now a degree is a pre-requisite. And i say that as somebody who doesnt have one but has 20 years experience so its not really an obstacle for me now. When i started there were a lot more self-taught people.

ChRoMe

ItsFrugal wrote: »

Not an argument...



Not an argument...

Welp, one more person I don't have to worry about competing with in the labour pool, carry on.

Jim2007

ItsFrugal wrote: »

I explicitly said that I'm not getting a degree and you came into the thread saying I need to get one. Since you didn't even take the time to understand my post I have no desire to listen to your advice.

You asked for an endorsement of your strategy and you did not get it... No doubt some one will be along eventually to say they did it without a degree and no doubt they did, but they will be an outlier and not the typical case.

srsly78

I did it without a degree, that was in 1998 tho. Good luck getting away with it nowadays.

oscarBravo

Me too - in 1987.

L.Jenkins

Sadly your only choice is to obtain a degree. Young people nowadays could run rings around some of the less than average developers in the industry having been brought up with Computers. If I were to bite the bullet years ago and start my own Company, I'd be hard pressed to hire anyone without one.

Beano

oscarBravo wrote: »

Me too - in 1987.

jaysus you're even older than me.

Beano

Not that that is a bad thing of course.

robbiezero

John_Mc wrote: »

Yeah I agree with everything said above. I was involved with recruitment for a large IT consultancy company and without a minimum of a degree any applications were automatically filtered out. I'm now involved with a startup and we will apply the same criteria.

I have to say Frugal that your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. There are people here who are far more experienced and capable than you offering their advice, which you asked for, and you're just rejecting it in a completely obnoxious manner.

Let's just see where that gets you...

He might actually be perfectly suited to software development .

The Corinthian

robbiezero wrote: »

He might actually be perfectly suited to software development .

He might be, but that does not magically change the present, and likely ongoing, market realities. He may have more luck if and when there's another dotcom.

Or he might not be. As he said himself, he gets "way too restless in a classroom setting" and while not quite a 'classroom setting' a lot of development involves levels of studious concentration that would not be compatible with someone who is naturally 'restless'.

L.Jenkins

The Corinthian wrote: »

He might be, but that does not magically change the present, and likely ongoing, market realities. He may have more luck if and when there's another dotcom.

Or he might not be. As he said himself, he gets "way too restless in a classroom setting" and while not quite a 'classroom setting' a lot of development involves levels of studious concentration that would not be compatible with someone who is naturally 'restless'.

That's a very good point. If you can't stand being stuck in a lecture room all day, it won't be any different being chained to the same desk 8+ hours a day.

beauf

Beano wrote: »

I'd have to agree with most of the advice given here. For anybody starting now a degree is a pre-requisite. And i say that as somebody who doesnt have one but has 20 years experience so its not really an obstacle for me now. When i started there were a lot more self-taught people.

+1 same here. I also think that unless that your experience is very good and current, even old timers will struggle without a degree in the current market place. You'll simply get filtered out.

Itzy wrote: »

That's a very good point. If you can't stand being stuck in a lecture room all day, it won't be any different being chained to the same desk 8+ hours a day.

In fairness it is different working than college stuff. But You also won't get the right experience on your own. You'd also need to have experience in working in a team and work well with people. Much more than IT people did in the past.

Earthhorse

Itzy wrote: »

That's a very good point. If you can't stand being stuck in a lecture room all day, it won't be any different being chained to the same desk 8+ hours a day.

I disagree. The two are very different. Most people get restless in classrooms because they are listening for extended periods without responding or doing. The only comparable situations in work are conference calls and powerpoint presentations; two of the most unproductive uses of time in my experience.

Dubba

OP have you considered a part time evening course? Here's a breakdown of the hours I'm doing at CIT:

Mon - Thurs => one module per night => 2hr lecture and 2hr lab
+ Saturday mornings 9 - 1pm.

Time wise it's possible to get a Lev6 Higher Cert after 3yrs, with the option of doing an extra year for
a Lev7 BSc and then another year for a Lev8 BSc(Hons) in Cloud / IT Management.

The in class time isn't all that much... its the work you do at home on projects and for exams that add up.
I think it'd be tough to complete this in the above time frame if you're working full time, but doing the course part time
means you can pick when to do each module.

No "filler" subjects that I can see here. Except maybe maths :pac:
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