Dental care for poor

ireland.man

ireland.man wrote: »

Very strange thread... while the op's idea was under-developed, there is a problem in Ireland with accessing all necessary treatments for people with dental problems so I'm confused by the response of others here. People seem indignant that dentists, as business people, should even consider offering a few hours of a free clinic for people suffering pain or progressive problems. There's even comments suggesting that there's 'deserving' and 'undeserving' patients too.

Again, the op's idea was under-developed but I thought that was a good thing, people could've given some constructive ideas or dismissed it while providing alternatives OR at least bemoan the state of the health service in Ireland and the culpability of the present and past governments. Instead people attacked the OP, criticised some of social welfare, pointed out some people with dental problems bring it on themselves, etc etc.

It's not just dentists. If you want a private consultation with any medical professional, rather than go on a waiting list for years, it costs a fortune. Should they also give free days?

ireland.man

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not just dentists. If you want a private consultation with any medical professional, rather than go on a waiting list for years, it costs a fortune. Should they also give free days?

Is it not common in the US for such medical professionals to hold free clinics and provide a few hours of their time for volunteer projects in their country, especially around preventative care?

Anyway, my point isn't that I think dentists should be forced to open free clinics for 20% of their work week or something radical like that, but I'm just surprised the reaction of people here. There's a real problem and people are not being treated for simple dental problems and instead of even acknowledging that and showing sympathy, people on this thread jump to defend dentists from people on the dole, they jump to criticise lazy people and those people who cause their own dental problems. Typical mean spirited, short-sighted Irish Celtic Tiger attitudes.

ireland.man

Here's one free dental clinic in the States:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/09/05/5152538/patients-volunteers-grateful-for.html#.VA18WtRdWk0

"These dental professionals feel privileged to do this,” said Dr. Evan Miller, event co-chair of the N.C. Missions of Mercy clinic, the third in Charlotte since 2011. “The people who come here (for care), they’ve got no alternative. They appreciate (dental workers) stepping into that gap for them.”

Miller estimated roughly 900 workers – dentists, dental assistants and hygenists – plus some 200 medical workers doing screenings and other volunteers would pitch in, with about 100 dental chairs available and the Carolinas HealthCare System’s MED-1 mobile unit on-site for oral surgeries. “And people are still walking through the door (to volunteer).”

RossieMan

America is a completely different kettle of fish when it comes to healthcare.

You cannot compare like for like.

Mrs OBumble

MaryM9 wrote: »

Only to a certain mentality : )

The mentality which says that the worker is worthy of his / her wage.

We live in a welfare state, the right way to address the underlying problem is to remove the treatment limits on the medical card, not to set up indigent clinics.

ireland.man

Yeah, America and Ireland can't be compared. For example in Ireland poor and rich contribute significant portions of their taxes towards creating both a strong social safety net AND subsidising affordable education, including dentistry courses. Yet it seems those who benefit from the latter think the former is unfair.

SpaceTime

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Actually it was last updated a few years ago when the recession swept in.It is so short sighted.

A year or so ago some victims of this policy were featured on the news. One was a 16 year old girl from Cork. She had some dental gum disease that made her more vulnerable to tooth decay. It could have been treated if she could pay but instead she had 16 teeth taken out and was fitted with dentures.
It was disfigurement. It's a traumatic procedure and it's impact is life long. Imagine having dentures at 16, having to worry about dentures during a first kiss and the impact it'll have on her confidence in so many spheres of life.

The thing is she will need new dentures as her face and jaw grow and the state will fork out for these but not the treatments that might have saved her teeth.

I think it's a horrible policy and I think it'd be great if dentist would get together and help some patients with difficult cases like that girl.

Also why eating the head off MaryM9 here ?Every charitable enterprise starts as an idea, why does she have to be active in another charity to air an opinion or be taken seriously?

It's not much different to : sorry public patients can't get knee replacement only amputation.

snubbleste

Let them eat cake chew dentastix

Owenw

?Cee?view wrote: »

Is this actually true? I would have thought that fees have plummeted in the last few years? Dental practices are barely scratching by these days as a result of PRSI changes and the inability of most to pay full price. The idea of giving away a free day (definitely not free to the Dentist) is laughable.

Extremely likely, as I said I am not a dentist, so not privy to fees beyond the guide pricing displayed in the waiting rooms. The loss of PRSI payments and limitations imposed on Medical Card scheme have resulted in patients deferring treatment, getting the minimum done to tide them over, or cancelling altogether and storing up trouble down the road.

Shakespeare's Sister

ireland.man wrote: »

Very strange thread... while the op's idea was under-developed, there is a problem in Ireland with accessing all necessary treatments for people with dental problems so I'm confused by the response of others here. People seem indignant that dentists, as business people, should even consider offering a few hours of a free clinic for people suffering pain or progressive problems. There's even comments suggesting that there's 'deserving' and 'undeserving' patients too.
Again, the op's idea was under-developed but I thought that was a good thing, people could've given some constructive ideas or dismissed it while providing alternatives OR at least bemoan the state of the health service in Ireland and the culpability of the present and past governments. Instead people attacked the OP, criticised some of social welfare, pointed out some people with dental problems bring it on themselves, etc etc.

Not sure what's so very strange about it. To want to help the poor is a great thing, it's just basic humanity. But accusatory, demanding suggestions directed at dentists on the basis of "ah shur they're rich" is not the way to go about it. There's a difference between neediness and deserving... and a sense of entitlement.

ireland.man

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Not sure what's so very strange about it. To want to help the poor is a great thing, it's just basic humanity. But accusatory, demanding suggestions directed at dentists on the basis if "ah shur they're rich" is not the way to go about it. There's a difference between neediness and deserving... and a sense of entitlement.

This thread isn't an attack on dentists, and no-one talked about their 'wealth' as a way to guilt them into running free clinics. In fact I'd be against free clinics if it absolves the government of its duty of care in that regard.

The people I criticised are those here constructing these oppositional categories of “deserving patients” and “undeserving dental patients". The latter are pictured as Vicky Pollard, working class, long-term on the dole, not caring for their own health, etc. the usual smug middle-class view of poor and disadvantaged people in Ireland. This thread very quickly turned into a typical AH thread about dole, and the supposed difference between stereotypical poor people, and the ones who have jobs and are only temporarily going through a 'bad patch'.

And there's something really odious about dividing people with medical problems into ethical categories anyway, regardless of stereotypes. Medical staff have always been told (and usually are empathetic enough to not do so anyway) to not let moral considerations based around deservingness affect their clinical decisions with good reason.

punisher5112

How do a lot go on holidays... they save...

If you need work done on teeth.... save....

I work full time shift work and get no help with rent/mortgage or any other things for that matter all I get is bills and levies and more tax taken off me.

I have had to get fillings, teeth pulled and I get no help so how can someone who has never worked be able to get this all for free.


This island is way too small and the workforce can't keep paying and contributing so much for to be stuck in a rut and living to work where it should be work to live.

Why not op start a thread for the hard worker and that they should get something back for all their hard work.

ireland.man

punisher5112 wrote: »

How do a lot go on holidays... they save...

If you need work done on teeth.... save....

I work full time shift work and get no help with rent/mortgage or any other things for that matter all I get is bills and levies and more tax taken off me.

I have had to get fillings, teeth pulled and I get no help so how can someone who has never worked be able to get this all for free.


This island is way too small and the workforce can't keep paying and contributing so much for to be stuck in a rut and living to work where it should be work to live.

Why not op start a thread for the hard worker and that they should get something back for all their hard work.

The percentage of Irish unemployed people who've never worked is absolutely tiny. During the boom the unemployment rate was negatively low, it's why we encouraged immigration in many labour sectors. At one point it was hovering around 1% long-term unemployed.

And there's no clear distinction between working people and poor people, or those on the dole and those who work. There's just people who've lost their jobs and those who may lose their jobs and whether the government provides for their basic welfare since they provide so much in taxes to the state. The people who've always been unemployed are so small in number that it's not worth dragging every fecking political conversation, from Irish Water to dental treatments to holidays, around to them again and again.

Apparently suggesting say a 17 year old is given a chance to have braces to protect against periodontal disease, or a regular cleaning service so long-term problems can be prevented saving more money in the long term is enough to make people indignant.

_Whimsical_

ireland.man wrote: »

Apparently suggesting say a 17 year old is given a chance to have braces to protect against periodontal disease, or a regular cleaning service so long-term problems can be prevented saving more money in the long term is enough to make people indignant.

The benefits for the state don't stop there either. There is research that shows that people who have visible dental decay,front teeth loss or obvious gum disease are statistically less likely to be given a job at interview than those with healthy teeth, even when qualifications and experience are equal.
It makes sense too, dental disease can affect someones speech,give someone very bad breath,loss of teeth can cause loss of confidence and issues with clarity of speech too.If you think about it, have you ever been served by a shop assistant or waitress with a missing front tooth or painfully bad breath? The present policy maims people and it does curtail their future prospects.

It is also a medical treatment, it's not as if people are walking in off the street getting their teeth filled or having painful procedures for the fun of it. We all know workers are being squeezed for every penny but it's pitiful to resent dental treatment for people, particularly kids,on social welfare. It's in the states interest to protect their dental health.

Mrs OBumble

Well I totally think that there should be subsidised health care, including a full range of dental care, for low income people. But I don't think that charity, which stokes donor egos but makes recipients feel like shyte, is the wayto deliver it.

kissmequick

Deleted User wrote: »

Plus rent allowance, plus fuel allowance, plus medical card. In some cases mortgage relief. Admittedly there are some, especially newly unemployed who won't qualify for all the above. There are also some on minimum wage jobs that would love to have €198 a week to live off.

Tsk tsk tsk and you were going so well. It's €188p.w.


Are ye sure there's that much complimentary stuff Dental-wise on the Medical Card? I thought Dental work through the Medical Card was pretty much stopped ages ago? I'm pretty sure my Dentist has a sign up about M.C. Holders getting 2 Free Check-ups or something but that seems to be about it. Would Dentists be able to suit it to their own Surgeries and Patients? Do they get commission or something for keeping the Medical Carders away?!?

kissmequick

kissmequick wrote: »

Tsk tsk tsk and you were going so well. It's €188p.w.


Are ye sure there's that much complimentary stuff Dental-wise on the Medical Card? I thought Dental work through the Medical Card was pretty much stopped ages ago? I'm pretty sure my Dentist has a sign up about M.C. Holders getting 2 Free Check-ups or something but that seems to be about it. Would Dentists be able to suit it to their own Surgeries and Patients? Do they get commission or something for keeping the Medical Carders away?!?

OMG, I got it wrong! How could I?
I thought it was 2 fillings and 2 extractions, but another poster recons it's 2 fillings and unlimited extractions per calender year. Check up is free but not cleaning. I wonder if it's down to the individual dentist?

snubbleste

Deleted User wrote: »

2 fillings and unlimited extractions per calender year

That's all one is entitled to.

ireland.man

Access to healthcare is a human right and isn't dependent on moral considerations of who's deserving or undeserving. Even organ donation is based on likelihood of success, not deservedness.

Medical cards and other means of accessing healthcare in this country are woefully inadequate in many areas.

A broader range of preventative care now would say the State more money in the long-term.

The people who should have more access to dental treatments are not just people on the dole but any low income person, working or otherwise.

Whether the OP volunteers or not is irrelevant to this thread's topic.

The only area of discussion of any merit this thread has seen so far is whether charity has a role to play in a welfare state, especially in medicine, or whether this allows the govt to abrogate its responsibilities.

Everything else is just smugness and extreme individualism by people who can't see how they themselves have benefited from 'handouts' from the govt on their education, etc.

?Cee?view

ireland.man wrote: »

The only area of discussion of any merit this thread has seen so far is whether charity has a role to play in a welfare state, especially in medicine, or whether this allows the govt to abrogate its responsibilities.

Everything else is just smugness and extreme individualism by people who can't see how they themselves have benefited from 'handouts' from the govt on their education, etc.

That's a sweeping statement and unjustified

MaryM9

All I was doing was suggestion a solution to a very URGENT problem - which, I'm am convinced, can be helped, by a spirit of compassion and care for fellow human beings, who, for whatever reason, find themselves in need, at this present time. It is NOT up to us to judge the reason for their current NEED, if you even think, that you have the right to judge them - you, need to check your head space!!!

_Whimsical_

In the interests of fairness and maybe as some reassurance to concerned posters, some dentists are definitely helping out patients in need at the moment out of the good of their hearts. I was talking to someone who has had lots of teeth trouble in the last year and who is on a medical card. She told me her city based dentist made great efforts to help her and had not charged her for fillings she had above her quota. She's going through a tough time and maybe he knows that.
Anyway it was nice to hear that someone was doing something so genuinely kind in their working day.

MaryM9

MaryM9 wrote: »

All I was doing was suggestion a solution to a very URGENT problem - which, I'm am convinced, can be helped, by a spirit of compassion and care for fellow human beings, who, for whatever reason, find themselves in need, at this present time. It is NOT up to us to judge the reason for their current NEED, if you even think, that you have the right to judge them - you, need to check your head space!!!

MaryM, I admire and salute your compassionate nature. However, in an ideal World, no one should go without medical, dental, psychiatric care. Any more than they should go with food, water, heating, etc. We don't live in an ideal World and we're not alone in this. As another poster has said, some dentists are going above and beyond their limits and treating those who cannot afford it - if they think it's truly deserving.