Kilkenny v Tipp, SHC Final Replay, Sat 27/09 @ 5pm

Hulk Hands

Going for a point from the penalty was idiotic. Simple logic dictates that if you have a greater than 1/3 chance of scoring then you should go for goal. Obviously Callanans chances were much better than that. When 2 points down in the second half it becomes even more imperative to go for goal. If Canning, Dowling, Nash had got a 21 yard free in that scenario, never mind a penalty, I could see them going for it. That's not blaming Callanan who was likely under instruction

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

I was slightly for Tipp yesterday, and thought ye had it @ H-T. 5 mins in though in 2nd half, and I knew it was gone. Limk would have beaten Tipp yesterday, but not the first day.

Will O Shea go?

As far as i know he is staying on for another year (or at least has the option to). Id say he'll stay for next year and go after Tipp conclude that Championship which could be July or September. Who'll take over after that is anyone's guess. He is a good man and i hope when he goes that he goes as a champion but he still has a bit to learn himself. He seems to lack a plan B and his subs are quite unusual at times. It is a great improvement on the last management but not so much on the Liam Sheedy/O'Shea management. He was far better as trainer

BarryD

Deleted User wrote: »

Barring the rare blip last year they would have four in a row now and there would be another drive for five next year.

Now id agree in a sense that they are not winning games pulling up like they used to back in the late noughties (07 and 08 finals spring to mind) but they are still cuter then the chasing pack when it comes to being able to grind the last drop out of the tank.

But isn't this why the playing field should be leveled? Have the possibilty of tougher games for KK in the early rounds and no re entry. You can't ride your 'luck' forever, more chance of 'bad days' and a more open possibility for other counties.

Mountainlad

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Going for a point from the penalty was idiotic. Simple logic dictates that if you have a greater than 1/3 chance of scoring then you should go for goal. Obviously Callanans chances were much better than that. When 2 points down in the second half it becomes even more imperative to go for goal. If Canning, Dowling, Nash had got a 21 yard free in that scenario, never mind a penalty, I could see them going for it. That's not blaming Callanan who was likely under instruction

Nine of them would go for a 21 now, if they did theyd miss. Nash has to hit the ball from 10 yards further back then he was before, not a hope hed score. If he used his conventional style, the ball would go over the bar. The physics of that strike dictates the ball will rise, and the further out you are the more chance you have of sending it over.

I'm pretty sure I read Paudie Butler say there has been ten Inter county penalties awarded since and 2/3 scored. That's less than 33% (I would imagine if there was bigger sample size it would definetly be below this anyway).

Putting it over meant there was one point between them, when in my view Tipp didn't merit being within 5 points at that stage. The reason they didn't win is bar say the first 8 minutes, they had no spell of dominance. They needed to get on top like Kilkenny did for the first 10 mins of the second half and they would have won. They weren't capable of it, largely because Kilkenny were superb at the back, and that's why they lost.

Not because of Callanan sticking it over.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

The penalty which I felt was no penalty was a big moment. Something now clearly needs to be done about that. 3 penalties any they managed a return of 1 point. :eek:

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Going for a point from the penalty was idiotic. Simple logic dictates that if you have a greater than 1/3 chance of scoring then you should go for goal. Obviously Callanans chances were much better than that. When 2 points down in the second half it becomes even more imperative to go for goal. If Canning, Dowling, Nash had got a 21 yard free in that scenario, never mind a penalty, I could see them going for it. That's not blaming Callanan who was likely under instruction

I didnt think it was much of a penalty either being honest. It is harder to score a penalty these times but at the same time sure didnt Pat Horgan bury one against Clare. I dont blame Callanan yesterday because people criticised him for not taking his point the last day and same with Bubbles. Missing would have given Kilkenny a fierce lift wheras at least by taking the point it was a 1 point game.

Charlie Carter proposed the use of vanishing spray recently and i think it was reffering to marking a zone inside the 20 that the taker cant go beyond and to be honest its not such a mad idea.

randd1

Deleted User wrote: »

We say that but they have won 3 of the last 4 all irelands. They know how to dig deep and win when it comes down to it and for me that will ensure they remain head of the pack at least under Cody as far as im concerned. The difference is they have huge self belief and trust in each other. Tremendous team spirit really. A player i have huge time for is Eoin Larkin. That man doesnt get half the plaudits he deserves. 33 years old and the lung bursting runs he makes to get a block in are incredible. And he is also capable of getting a score at the other end.

The one team who could consider themselves a bit unlucky this year is Limerick. They lost by the finest of margins and perhaps could have won the game on a better day weather wise. They will take alot from this year. Clare will improve next year, hopefully Wexford and Waterford's young teams will come on a bit more, the new management could be just what Dublin need, you'd never know with Galway and Cork cannot be written off either. And the old foe will lead the pack. Its going to be an even tougher road for us and we cant take anything for granted. If we are serious about going one step further we must start the planning asap.

Eoin Larkin is not 33 TG, he turned 30 only two months ago.

On the age thing, contrary to popular belief, the Kilkenny panel is not actually that old. Of the 15 that started yesterday, only 3 were over 30, Delaney (32), Tyrrell (32) and Larkin.

I posted this on another thread, its a list of players on the Kilkenny panel and their current ages.

Eoin Murphy-24,
Joey Holden-24, Paul Murphy-25, Brian Kennedy-22,
Padraig Walsh-22, Kieran Joyce-27, Cillian Buckley-22,
Lester Ryan-26, Conor Fogarty-24,
Richie Power-28, Richie Hogan-26, TJ Reid-26,
Colin Fennelly-25, Mark Kelly-26, John Power-22

Walter Walsh-23, Jonjo Farrell-26 (today).

That's a side that has a lot of youth but massive experience, and numerous trophies as well.
That's not to mention Mick Fennelly and Larkin who will be 30 at the start of the next championship as well, Ger Aylward and Kevin Kelly, both good hurlers that will likely be over their injuries and part of the panel next year. And we won the minor this year too.

We're coming to an end of a golden era for Kilkenny hurling, and its going to be very hard to replace some of the greatest hurlers the country has ever seen.
We certainly won't be winning AI's every year, or in Croke Park every September, but I'd bet we won't be far off it either.

The growler

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Going for a point from the penalty was idiotic. Simple logic dictates that if you have a greater than 1/3 chance of scoring then you should go for goal. Obviously Callanans chances were much better than that. When 2 points down in the second half it becomes even more imperative to go for goal. If Canning, Dowling, Nash had got a 21 yard free in that scenario, never mind a penalty, I could see them going for it. That's not blaming Callanan who was likely under instruction

Yeah you would think Tipp would have practiced penalties in training at least. They knew there was a fair chance they'd get one in the replay. Surely they could have got Seamie or Bubbles to perfect their technique or even try out Gleeson. There had to be someone on the team capable of striking it! I know you can't replicate the pressure of an all Ireland final but still.

Although if Callanan had missed people would have been saying "why didn't he go for the point"!

randd1

randd1 wrote: »

Eoin Larkin is not 33 TG, he turned 30 only two months ago.

Wow i stand corrected i was sure he was alot older. Phenomenal athlete. You wouldnt mind my cousin is based in James Stephens barracks with him and knows him fairly well. I could have asked him only he is still in Syria for the next week or so

The Kilkenny team isnt that old tbh but the core of players that achieved so much success - Tyrell, JJ, Tommy Walsh, Henry and Brian Hogan - are drawing their careers to a close and i would say all will be happy with their lot. That said though there is still a great core there to work from and that half back line stands out more then most. Cody has managed the transition from one period to the next in seamlessly. From the early days of DJ, Charlie Carter, Andy Comerford, Philly Larkin, Brian McEvoy and Peter Barry to the next phase of Brian Hogan, Tommy, Jackie and Eoin Larkin

Henry and Cody have been the constant throughout. I think the main ingredient - Cody - will stay on. It will be one hell of a challenge to find his successor when he calls it a day. Richie Mulrooney, Martin Fogarty, Pat Hoban and one or two others have plenty of credentials but it is still an extremely daunting task facing them.

holyhead

I thought from a KK perspective Tipp's second goal was unlucky. Sure the ball ricoched from a KK boot into the path of Callanan. Fair play he stuck it home. However I felt it gave the scoreboard a look which didn't accurately reflect KK's superiority in the match. A 6/7 point win would have been more accurate.
To give credit to Tipp, their performance in the first game was I think the best display by in an AIF I 've seen where the match wasn't won. I know they have no winning medals to show for it but they deserve enormous credit for that display. Their no show in the opening 1/3 of the second half was curious. We really got a stranglehold on the game in that period. Don't blame Callanan for not going for the penalty. His job was to add to the scoreline and given that the previous two were missed I think he did the right thing. A penalty save would have given KK a lift at a time when Tipp needed a score.
I would agree with the general assertion that KK aren't as clinical as we used to be but we are still winning All Ireland's

allthedoyles

Some posters misunderstood my post after the match regarding referee / man of the match .

I believe Brian Gavin gave a man of the match performance in hurling referee terms , and I could not see any individual player that warranted a best player award .

BarryD

BarryD wrote: »

But isn't this why the playing field should be leveled? Have the possibilty of tougher games for KK in the early rounds and no re entry. You can't ride your 'luck' forever, more chance of 'bad days' and a more open possibility for other counties.

Whatever about scrapping the provincial system i think there is merit in that but to be honest i think its very harsh for you to say that Kilkenny have it soft. Kilkenny have had three of the toughest games imaginable against ourselves and Limerick and have still come through them. They also beat Galway after a replay in what was a close run thing the first day around.

Perhaps they get that small bit of luck but you make your own luck too and they leave nothing in the hands of destiny. Sport is similar to a bucket of water, essentially what you put in you get out. Its up to the other Leinster and Munster teams to really sit down and form a blueprint. Producing good wristy hurlers just simply wont do. They really need to meet fire with fire all over the field.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever about scrapping the provincial system i think there is merit in that but to be honest i think its very harsh for you to say that Kilkenny have it soft. Kilkenny have had three of the toughest games imaginable against ourselves and Limerick and have still come through them. They also beat Galway after a replay in what was a close run thing the first day around.

Perhaps they get that small bit of luck but you make your own luck too and they leave nothing in the hands of destiny. Sport is similar to a bucket of water, essentially what you put in you get out. Its up to the other Leinster and Munster teams to really sit down and form a blueprint. Producing good wristy hurlers just simply wont do. They really need to meet fire with fire all over the field.

I agree. Before Galway came into Leinster KK had it all too easy, no question about that. But Dublin have also improved, so now Leinster is as competitive as Munster.

BarryD

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever about scrapping the provincial system i think there is merit in that but to be honest i think its very harsh for you to say that Kilkenny have it soft. Kilkenny have had three of the toughest games imaginable against ourselves and Limerick and have still come through them. They also beat Galway after a replay in what was a close run thing the first day around.

Perhaps they get that small bit of luck but you make your own luck too and they leave nothing in the hands of destiny. Sport is similar to a bucket of water, essentially what you put in you get out. Its up to the other Leinster and Munster teams to really sit down and form a blueprint. Producing good wristy hurlers just simply wont do. They really need to meet fire with fire all over the field.

True, I'm not sure if I suggested it was 'soft' for Kilkenny but maybe the current system just makes it a touch softer than for Munster teams. They've been overcome in recent years but it's one thing for another county to pull it out of the hat and beat or draw with them once. Repeating that is also a problem.

The 2012 championship was surely a travesty of natural justice - Galway disposed of KK in the 'Leinster' part of the All Ireland only to be beaten in the final by the same team, that they'd already overcome..

BarryD

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree. Before Galway came into Leinster KK had it all too easy, no question about that. But Dublin have also improved, so now Leinster is as competitive as Munster.

Did Galway come into Leinster in 2009 I think. That's six seasons, in which Kilkenny have won four All Irelands.... not sure if that's much of a game changer!!

They'd also won four of the previous six years.

The growler

BarryD wrote: »

True, I'm not sure if I suggested it was 'soft' for Kilkenny but maybe the current system just makes it a touch softer than for Munster teams. They've been overcome in recent years but it's one thing for another county to pull it out of the hat and beat or draw with them once. Repeating that is also a problem.

The 2012 championship was surely a travesty of natural justice - Galway disposed of KK in the 'Leinster' part of the All Ireland only to be beaten in the final by the same team, that they'd already overcome..

You could also say then that 2010 was a "travesty" when Tipp came through the back door to deny Kilkenny the 5 in a row - these things work both ways.

On balance though the back door system has favoured the traditionally stronger counties. Waterford probably suffered the most from it. Every Munster title they won they were beaten by a back door team afterwards. They'd also have been better off if the back door hadn't been there in 2008.....

BarryD

BarryD wrote: »

Did Galway come into Leinster in 2009 I think. That's six seasons, in which Kilkenny have won four All Irelands.... not sure if that's much of a game changer!!

Its probably helped Kilkenny if anything as Cody was always crying out for more competitive games between June and September. It has given life to the Leinster championship and perhaps the championship as a whole. Perhaps it has also helped Galway in a sense of getting more competitive games but i would doubt they hold their Bob O'Keefe medals in such esteem.

randd1

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree. Before Galway came into Leinster KK had it all too easy, no question about that. But Dublin have also improved, so now Leinster is as competitive as Munster.

Not sure is at as competitive as Munster yet as Kilkenny are still the best side in Leinster by a mile, but you're right, with Galway in there and Dublin more competitive, it has become harder for Kilkenny in Leinster, which is undoubtedly a good thing for all (especially Kilkenny).

Wexford too look to be improving, and are really putting up to Kilkenny and Dublin at underage. Laois won't win any titles soon, but they've also given teams a tough game in recent years at all levels as well in Leinster.

Point of fact about the Leinster championship re Kilkenny. In the last three seasons, they've played 9 games, won 5, drawn 2 and lost 2, with two of those wins coming against a poor Offaly side the last two seasons. They have only picked up one Leinster title as well.

Kilkenny have not had it easy in Leinster at all the last few years, even if they won it this year well, there is certainly a leveling off in Leinster occurring at all levels.

Incidentally, in the same three years, Kilkenny have fared much better against Munster counties as their record against Munster sides stands, played 8, won 6, drawn 1 and lost 1.

BarryD

The growler wrote: »

You could also say then that 2010 was a "travesty" when Tipp came through the back door to deny Kilkenny the 5 in a row - these things work both ways.

On balance though the back door system has favoured the traditionally stronger counties. Waterford probably suffered the most from it. Every Munster title they won they were beaten by a back door team afterwards. They'd also have been better off if the back door hadn't been there in 2008.....

Yep, it's a mad system. Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to another field game in the world, where in what is nominally a knockout competition - a losing team can reenter the competition?

Is it unique - another Irish solution to an Irish problem??????????

randd1

BarryD wrote: »

Yep, it's a mad system. Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to another field game in the world, where in what is nominally a knockout competition - a losing team can reenter the competition?

Is it unique - another Irish solution to an Irish problem??????????

I just have to point out its the same system for everyone at the start of the year, so it doesn't really favour any side, as everyone knows what they're getting into.

Re, the back door, its not an ideal solution but until they come up with a system that guarantees sides 3/4 games a year for each side or the scrap the provincial system, its what we have. And as long as the Munster championship is sacrosanct and can't be touched, it will stay that way.

BarryD

BarryD wrote: »

True, I'm not sure if I suggested it was 'soft' for Kilkenny but maybe the current system just makes it a touch softer than for Munster teams. They've been overcome in recent years but it's one thing for another county to pull it out of the hat and beat or draw with them once. Repeating that is also a problem.

The 2012 championship was surely a travesty of natural justice - Galway disposed of KK in the 'Leinster' part of the All Ireland only to be beaten in the final by the same team, that they'd already overcome..

Id agree with your argument re repeat meetings but it can work against teams as much as with them. Another thing is that due to the shortage of teams playing hurling at this elite level that its quite hard to avoid repeat fixtures.

Kilkenny curb the trend given the work rate and intensity they bring to every game. They'd fancy themselves to beat teams twice in the championship on most years.

Waterford v Limerick in 2007 was a classic example of a team being ambushed on the second time round. Waterford won the league and Munster that year and were in good shape for the All Ireland. Had they managed to avoid Limerick i think they had a real real chance. I solemnly believe that that year they were at their peak and were at least as good as Kilkenny (or as good as they were in 2007). Had they got to the final id have given them a great chance of winning tbh and it wouldnt have been the cakewalk it was 12 months later. Kilkenny were a far more fiercer beast in 2008 but thats a whole different story.

BarryD

BarryD wrote: »

Yep, it's a mad system. Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to another field game in the world, where in what is nominally a knockout competition - a losing team can reenter the competition?

Is it unique - another Irish solution to an Irish problem??????????

You have to remember though that these are all amateur athletes at the end of the day that make massive sacrifices. They deserve the second bite of the cherry. Any team can have an off day on any given Sunday. I find it even more cruel that lads doing heavy training during the winter would be suddenly out on their arse in June because of one bad game.

I can see sense in your argument from the point of view that provincial champions could be gone after one defeat ala Cork this year or Limerick last year and the 5 or 6 week gap between provincial final and All Ireland semi final doesn't really help matters, but essentially what you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts. Its really hard to know what format works.

randd1

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to remember though that these are all amateur athletes at the end of the day that make massive sacrifices. They deserve the second bite of the cherry. Any team can have an off day on any given Sunday. I find it even more cruel that lads doing heavy training during the winter would be suddenly out on their arse in June because of one bad game.

I can see sense in your argument from the point of view that provincial champions could be gone after one defeat ala Cork this year or Limerick last year and the 5 or 6 week gap between provincial final and All Ireland semi final doesn't really help matters, but essentially what you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts. Its really hard to know what format works.

I think myself that we should have the provincial champions go into the QF's, but be given a home QF as reward for winning the province.

It would mean two more counties with a chance of getting to an AISF making the championship more open, one less round of the qualifiers which should help the clubs, more big games for more counties and somewhat of a solution to the long layoff after the provincial finals.

Brian017

BarryD wrote: »

Yep, it's a mad system. Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to another field game in the world, where in what is nominally a knockout competition - a losing team can reenter the competition?

Is it unique - another Irish solution to an Irish problem??????????

Where a sport has a knockout competition it isn't usually the main/sole competition in that sport than a team competes in. The GAA Championships aren't like other sports in that regard.

Rightwing

randd1 wrote: »

I think myself that we should have the provincial champions go into the QF's, but be given a home QF as reward for winning the province.

It would mean two more counties with a chance of getting to an AISF making the championship more open, one less round of the qualifiers which should help the clubs, more big games for more counties and somewhat of a solution to the long layoff after the provincial finals.

I agree, Munster beaten finalists have won 8 out of last 9 Q/Fs, whereas the winners have struggled hugely at the semifinal stage.

mullinr2

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I wouldn't expect you to agree with me ,you are a staunch Kilkenny fan and can see no wrongs with their play ,all of the fouls I listed are just manliness in your opinion I guess ?

So Mister Anarchy is it just Kilkenny that commit these fouls? Do Tipp, Cork, Clare etc not commit these fouls in your opinion. If Tipp won yesterday would you be bringing up the pulling, dragging and arm holding that they did to Kilkenny players?

robbiezero

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the difference is to be fair is that he continues to fight hard regardless of how the game is going for him whereas others tend to throw in the towel.

Hogan hadn't the legs to handle him the last day but Joyce to his credit stuck to him like glue. Joyce is generally more suited to wing back but had a fine game at centre. Their half backs were imperious. Walsh can feel hard done by he didn't start the last day. A victim of his own versatility if you like. Buckley for me though was the pick of the three. He absolutely mopped up everything that rained in on top of him.

We never really pierced beyond that half back line to give a better assessment of their full back line. In this respect i couldnt really criticise the Tipp full forwards too much. Callanan for one has been terrific all year imo and answered his critics in spades. Lar was starved of good ball but set up the goal when he got it. Gearoid took alot of stick there and he does lack a forward threat but he worked his ass off. Noel is the lad id be most critical of. Far too often he flatters to deceive. When we won in 2010, 20 year old Noel showed alot of leadership in the crucial period where we got two goals in a couple of minutes which ultimately won us the All Ireland. He hasnt been anywhere near those heights since apart from one or two glimpses. Bubbles got three points despite one of his quieter games.

Lar was brought out the field in the drawn game in second half and had a massive impact and played very well. He was left in corner forward all the second half until eventually brought off. Sometimes the decisions of the management seem to be concentrated more on doing the unexpected rather than repeating things that have worked. Another e.g. O Mahoney the second sub on.

robbiezero

DDC1990 wrote: »

I attended my first ever All Ireland Hurling final yesterday (I didn't go home after last sunday's game), and was hugely impressed with the skill level and physicality that was on show.

The referee let things go which, I think suited Kilkenny, but shouldn't take away from the fact that Kilkenny were the better team.

The one thing that struck me about Kilkenny in this game and in the Drawn game was their first touch. How many times did we see a Tipperary man get a decent pass, drop it, and have his marker swoop in to pick the ball up first time and clear it. Nearly every "scrum" for the ball led to Kilkenny winning posession.

For the second goal, Ryan had a chance to clear it, but fumbled it into the air, Power stole it and stuck it into the net.

I didn't think the penalty was the correct call, but I'll watch it back tonight and see. It was a psychological turning point for Kilkenny I feel, that Callanan only tapped it over the bar. I know they had missed 2 the last day, and it was probably playing on his mind, but you need to take every chance you get against Kilkenny. That showed weakness to Kilkenny and they capitalised very soon afterwards.

The half backs for both sides were magnificent. Walsh, Joyce and Buckley for KK and Maher, Maher and Bergin for Tipp.

I was disappointed for Tipperary, always had a soft spot for them, but was delighted for Cody and Henry. Legends of the game deserve to go out on a high. I've always felt it was a pity that the great Kerry team stayed on too late, and many suffered losses to end their careers. King Henry (if he goes) will have gone out on top and will be remembered as possibly the greatest Hurler of all time. 10 All Ireland medals, Congrats Henry.

Mar fhocail scoir, táim bródúil as Lyster Ryan as ucht an óráid a thug sé, go hiomlán i nGaeilge. Ag teacht ó chontae gan Gaeltacht nó stair labhairt na Gaeilge, is iontach an rud é an teanga a chloisaint ag ócáid chultúrtha chomh tábhtach le seo. Árd Moladh Lyster agus choimeád beo é.

Wouldn't agree about the turning point. Half time was the only turning point in this match. Was only one team in it in the second half.

robbiezero

farmerval wrote: »

From a Tipp perspective, I thought the team looked a little off the boil, three poor wides in a row from Garoid Ryan, Bubbles and Callanan free as well as Bubbles turning down an easy point to go for goal, all during our most productive spell all looked like a team not quite right.
Gavin as a referee is a disaster, gives soft frees to defenders because they are non consequential, have Tipp a ridicules penalty, never blew for chopping down or steps for either team.
Eamon O Shea seems to play an intellectual type of perfection game which Kilkenny have rumbled, when the Tipp backs can take the ball out from defence Tipp are great, but when they are challenged vigorously they can only lamp it down the field the forwards are still making their runs and not challenging for possession.
Thought it was very obvious yesterday P Walsh and Cilian Buckley dominated early on but were very quiet for last 15-20 mins first half, whwn Tipp were dominating, and were totally dominant in in the second half when Kilkenny forwards really upped the pressure.
Last five years this has been the pattern generally, Tipp good ion first half, Kilkenny force game into a scrap in second half, and Tipp's marqee forwards dissappear from the game.

I thought that too. Even in the first two minutes KK made 3 blocks on the Tipp backs, but the Tipp backs each time were attempting to clear it standing still. Lunacy at this level. Same thing in second half, Joyce made 3 blocks in a row on Tipp players standing still. Our touch all day long was poor, we were miles off the level of the drawn game.

robbiezero

robbiezero wrote: »

Lar was brought out the field in the drawn game in second half and had a massive impact and played very well. He was left in corner forward all the second half until eventually brought off. Sometimes the decisions of the management seem to be concentrated more on doing the unexpected rather than repeating things that have worked. Another e.g. O Mahoney the second sub on.

Very true. Lar won that ball when he came out the field so it was nuts that he didnt at least bring him out on either Padraic Walsh or Kieran Joyce. Noel was extremely poor. Offered nothing. Forde and Shane Bourke got a bit of stick but i thought they at least showed a bit of movement and pace up there and Bourke to his credit took on his marker at one stage albeit to no avail (although perhaps he could have had a free)

The Kilkenny goals sealed our fate yesterday, but the big hole in the battleship was inflicted when they outscored us 5-1 in those first 10-15 mins of the second half. Thats when Kilkenny create the bedrock for the majority of their wins. I thought we shaded the first half but didnt take enough chances. Once you leave that front or back door anyway ajar, Kilkenny are ready to burgle the house and ransack it for good measure.

What has EOS got against Denis Maher? The man was flying it for us all year and now he is back down the pecking order? He is being blackguarded in my opinion. If your going to take Gar off then he is the natural choice to come on. A great catcher, takes on his man, stops his man from getting good clean clearances, anticipates the breaks...Look at how Buckley has done the last two games and then compare it to the league final when Maher gave him a torrid time and scored two points off him. Dont want to knock Gar Ryan as he done alot of unnoticed work yesterday but he just seems to be a lad between two stools really. He is an Eoin Larkin type player without that bit of hurling in him.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

Very true. Lar won that ball when he came out the field so it was nuts that he didnt at least bring him out on either Padraic Walsh or Kieran Joyce. Noel was extremely poor. Offered nothing. Forde and Shane Bourke got a bit of stick but i thought they at least showed a bit of movement and pace up there and Bourke to his credit took on his marker at one stage albeit to no avail (although perhaps he could have had a free)

The Kilkenny goals sealed our fate yesterday, but the big hole in the battleship was inflicted when they outscored us 5-1 in those first 10-15 mins of the second half. Thats when Kilkenny create the bedrock for the majority of their wins. I thought we shaded the first half but didnt take enough chances. Once you leave that front or back door anyway ajar, Kilkenny are ready to burgle the house and ransack it for good measure.

What has EOS got against Denis Maher? The man was flying it for us all year and now he is back down the pecking order? He is being blackguarded in my opinion. If your going to take Gar off then he is the natural choice to come on. A great catcher, takes on his man, stops his man from getting good clean clearances, anticipates the breaks...Look at how Buckley has done the last two games and then compare it to the league final when Maher gave him a torrid time and scored two points off him.

Very true. I remember in the semifinal, we dominated them hugely after the break and thought we had it, until we gave away a poor goal. KK may not the purest of hurlers, but they are professional. Very professional.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Very true. I remember in the semifinal, we dominated them hugely after the break and thought we had it, until we gave away a poor goal. KK may not the purest of hurlers, but they are professional. Very professional.

Actually one of the only exceptions in terms of weathering the Kilkenny storm was Limerick this year.

They were on top going into the last fifteen but then they gave away a very silly free. The Kilkenny player wasnt really going anywhere so i dunno what prompted O'Grady to foul him. They have excellent free takers who could almost land a ball on a penny from distance so its a big risk to give them frees even from that range.

There was a bit of holding on the Limerick defenders hurley from that free that the umpires failed to spot (perhaps it was difficult). Once Kilkenny got the noses in front they could afford to defend for all they were worth and there is no doubting that conditions helped them but Limerick were perhaps guilty of going for goals when a simple tap over the bar was on.

Kkboy

Rightwing wrote: »

Very true. I remember in the semifinal, we dominated them hugely after the break and thought we had it, until we gave away a poor goal. KK may not the purest of hurlers, but they are professional. Very professional.

Just out of interest which of the Kilkenny players would not be the purest of hurlers. I think we compare pretty well to all other counties in terms of purity.

Rightwing

Kkboy wrote: »

Just out of interest which of the Kilkenny players would not be the purest of hurlers. I think we compare pretty well to all other counties in terms of purity.

Most of them, but probably not the hurlers themselves, more the style of play. Not too unlike Donegal in football, in your face type of stuff.

Mountainlad

Rightwing wrote: »

Most of them, but probably not the hurlers themselves, more the style of play. Not too unlike Donegal in football, in your face type of stuff.

I'd disagree, their composure on the ball and execution of distribution by and large is what beat Tipp. Tipp didn't show the same discipline and measured ball to their forwards yesterday.

Kkboy

Rightwing wrote: »

Most of them, but probably not the hurlers themselves, more the style of play. Not too unlike Donegal in football, in your face type of stuff.

So most of them put probably not any of them then.

fed up sick and tired

Rightwing wrote: »

Tipp looked the more natural hurlers, but once the scrums developed, there was only ever going to be 1 winner. KK days of dominance are over. That's not to say they'll fall away but now they have been brought back into the pack.

The days of real dominance have arguably been over since '10.

And still we've won three of the last four.

We're only in the pack, but actually have been for the last few years. But as the man says - the spirit, there's no end to it.

Rightwing

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

The days of real dominance have arguably been over since '10.

And still we've won three of the last four.

We're only in the pack, but actually have been for the last few years. But as the man says - the spirit, there's no end to it.

Well KK were beatable this year, fell last year, replay the year before. There's little in it now, but KK are still marginally ahead, but that's all it is now.

fed up sick and tired

Rightwing wrote: »

Well KK were beatable this year, fell last year, replay the year before. There's little in it now, but KK are still marginally ahead, but that's all it is now.

In your post that I am responding to, you say KK are in the pack.

Now you're saying they're still marginally ahead ? ? ?

I think you were right the first time, i don't believe we're ahead in any meaningful way apart from the single most important way - the intangible element of spirit.

In a way, I got at least as much pleasure out of last year as I did out of any of the winning years. The sheer unwillingness to surrender was and is magnificent.

Rightwing

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

In your post that I am responding to, you say KK are in the pack.

Now you're saying they're still marginally ahead ? ? ?

I think you were right the first time, i don't believe we're ahead in any meaningful way apart from the single most important way - the intangible element of spirit.

In a way, I got at least as much pleasure out of last year as I did out of any of the winning years. The sheer unwillingness to surrender was and is magnificent.

Well it would be unfair of me to be saying they are in the pack if they continue to win. But I don't think KK will be able to retain the AI.

adrian522

In fairness to Kilkenny you could say that Galway, Limerick and Tipperary (twice) had games where they will feel Killkenny were there for the taking but Kilkenny still ended up unbeaten in all those games.

To me what seperates KK from a lot of the other teams in the pure will to win and the ability to get over the line when things aren't going well.

The opposition pretty much has to play a perfect game to win and sometimes that is not enough. At some point you have to admit that it not just luck that has Kilkenny winning these games.

People will say that Tipp in the league final and drawn All ireland final and Limerick in the semi that Kilkenny were there for the taking but none of them could get the job done.

It will depend on retirements of course but if most of the Kilkenny lads come back again there is no doubt they will be playing and competing well into August next year at least.

Charlie69

Rightwing wrote: »

Tipp looked the more natural hurlers, but once the scrums developed, there was only ever going to be 1 winner. KK days of dominance are over. That's not to say they'll fall away but now they have been brought back into the pack.

Have to congratulate the majority of Tipp fans I met in Croke Park yesterday who although obviously heartbroken, were magnanimous in defeat and very generous in their praise of the Kilkenny teams efforts and had no complaints about the result.

Its a shame that some begrudging posters from other counties can't hide their utter disdain for kilkenny and are an embarrassment to their counties really.

robbiezero

adrian522 wrote: »

In fairness to Kilkenny you could say that Galway, Limerick and Tipperary (twice) had games where they will feel Killkenny were there for the taking but Kilkenny still ended up unbeaten in all those games.

To me what seperates KK from a lot of the other teams in the pure will to win and the ability to get over the line when things aren't going well.

The opposition pretty much has to play a perfect game to win and sometimes that is not enough. At some point you have to admit that it not just luck that has Kilkenny winning these games.

People will say that Tipp in the league final and drawn All ireland final and Limerick in the semi that Kilkenny were there for the taking but none of them could get the job done.

It will depend on retirements of course but if most of the Kilkenny lads come back again there is no doubt they will be playing and competing well into August next year at least.

I have said it a couple of times now, that we in Tipp on any day need to be 6 or 7 points better than Kilkenny to actually beat them, such is their bloody pigheaded refusal to lose and their ability to just stay in games even when the flow of the game is going against them and the only time we have been sufficiently better than them to go on and win was 2010.

droppingball

I agree despite the intense rivalry between the teams the supporters get on well and there is respect there for both counties. The Tipperary fans were very magnanimous yesterday.

Some of the other posters seem to be fairly bitter and are making some lame attempts to lessen kilkennys achievement this year. Kilkenny know there hurling we know we have lost a few greats and we aren't hammering teams with swashbuckling hurling but kilkenny won 2014 all ireland after 2 massive battles which means they are the best in the country in 2014.

As for people talking about purity of our hurlers, have ye not been watching Tj Reid, Richie Hogan, Richie Power, Cillian Buckley, Tommy Walsh, Jackie Tyrell and the King himself, tough uncompromising men yes but the most skillful and talented of guys. And if they are not pure hurlers then pure hurlers dont win all irelands.

Congrats to tipperary and kilkenny players and management for providing two great games, tipperary will be back without doubt, they are not far away and could so easily have done the business.

Cody done it again yesterday incredible that he got all the decisions right, he has made us all so proud to be from Kilkenny and he can never be thanked enough for what he has done. We will be telling our children about these last 15 years, times are changing and these days cant continue forever. There will always be haters and bitterness after the success we have had and as we have seen its alive and well judging by this thread. If your liked your not successful so lobg may the bitterness last.

Hon the black and amber!!!!

BarryD

adrian522 wrote: »

....The opposition pretty much has to play a perfect game to win and sometimes that is not enough. At some point you have to admit that it not just luck that has Kilkenny winning these games..

But is this not a critical point? It's all very well saying that KK are marginally top of the pack and can be beaten on a 'good' day. The question is, can they be beaten twice?? Their record seems to suggest this is a strong point, their ability to come back after a loss or draw and prevail at second time of asking. You can't do anything about draws but the backdoor could be taken out.

Edited to add that Kilkenny were clearly the better team yesterday IMVHO and deserved to win by a bigger margin but is it good for the game overall that they have dominated so much in the winning stakes since 2000?

Kkboy

BarryD wrote: »

But is this not a critical point? It's all very well saying that KK are marginally top of the pack and can be beaten on a 'good' day. The question is, can they be beaten twice?? Their record seems to suggest this is a strong point, their ability to come back after a loss or draw and prevail at second time of asking. You can't do anything about draws but the backdoor could be taken out.

So you think its fair that teams train for 7 to 8 months for potentially just one match, how will that improve young emerging teams, like Waterford and Wexford??

Rightwing

Charlie69 wrote: »

Have to congratulate the majority of Tipp fans I met in Croke Park yesterday who although obviously heartbroken, were magnanimous in defeat and very generous in their praise of the Kilkenny teams efforts and had no complaints about the result.

Its a shame that some begrudging posters from other counties can't hide their utter disdain for kilkenny and are an embarrassment to their counties really.

Were these the same fans that turned on their own team early in the year I wonder?

BarryD

Kkboy wrote: »

So you think its fair that teams train for 7 to 8 months for potentially just one match, how will that improve young emerging teams, like Waterford and Wexford??

Well it might give them a bit more hope and hope is what keeps people going too. As things stand, surely the system suits the stronger counties more and the likes of Wexford less.

That's what makes other knockout competitions in other codes compelling in their own way. It's a one off match, each team has the same number of players and even the minnows overcome the odds not infrequently. It adds to the romance and uncertainty and throws up new situations.

MfMan

citykat wrote: »

Says he from the comfort of his chair. Bonnar was outhurled by the motm but never gave up. Ffs he was in the running for HOTY. Eos was never going to take him off and rightly so.

Um.. from the comfort of his chair in the Upper Hogan. Bonnar didn't stop trying it is true, but his limitations as a hurler sadly came to the fore today. Messed up a lot of hard won possession.

Why, when through on goal, didn't Callinan kick it or hit it tennis-smash style a-la Shane O'Donnell - surely he knew he was going to be hooked.

Kkboy

BarryD wrote: »

Well it might give them a bit more hope and hope is what keeps people going too. As things stand, surely the system suits the stronger counties more and the likes of Wexford less.

That's what makes other knockout competitions in other codes compelling in their own way. It's a one off match, each team has the same number of players and even the minnows overcome the odds not infrequently. It adds to the romance and uncertainty and throws up new situations.

If it had been applied this year, Wexford would have been beaten by Dublin in June and never have played Clare twice or Waterford. Also Clare would not have won the All Ireland last year. I don't think most counties would support your idea at all. You could also make the argument that if the backdoor was never brought in, Kilkenny would have won 5 in a row in 2010

droppingball

I agree despite the intense rivalry between the teams the supporters get on well and there is respect there for both counties. The Tipperary fans were very magnanimous yesterday.

Some of the other posters seem to be fairly bitter and are making some lame attempts to lessen kilkennys achievement this year. Kilkenny know there hurling we know we have lost a few greats and we aren't hammering teams with swashbuckling hurling but kilkenny won 2014 all ireland after 2 massive battles which means they are the best in the country in 2014.

As for people talking about purity of our hurlers, have ye not been watching Tj Reid, Richie Hogan, Richie Power, Cillian Buckley, Tommy Walsh, Jackie Tyrell and the King himself, tough uncompromising men yes but the most skillful and talented of guys. And if they are not pure hurlers then pure hurlers dont win all irelands.

Congrats to tipperary and kilkenny players and management for providing two great games, tipperary will be back without doubt, they are not far away and could so easily have done the business.

Cody done it again yesterday incredible that he got all the decisions right, he has made us all so proud to be from Kilkenny and he can never be thanked enough for what he has done. We will be telling our children about these last 15 years, times are changing and these days cant continue forever. There will always be haters and bitterness after the success we have had and as we have seen its alive and well judging by this thread. If your liked your not successful so lobg may the bitterness last.

Hon the black and amber!!!!