Kilkenny v Tipp, SHC Final Replay, Sat 27/09 @ 5pm

citykat

At the homecoming tonight Cody stressed how much being written off after last year served as motivation for this year. So to all those posters talking of KK slipping back into the pack, whatever that may be, please keep it up.

BarryD

Kkboy wrote: »

If it had been applied this year, Wexford would have been beaten by Dublin in June and never have played Clare twice or Waterford. Also Clare would not have won the All Ireland last year. I don't think most counties would support your idea at all. You could also make the argument that if the backdoor was never brought in, Kilkenny would have won 5 in a row in 2010

Well, if you want to promote the idea of more competitive games, why not just scrap the idea of a supposedly knockout competition and just stick with a league with the winners being All Ireland champs. For arguments sake, a league with 12 counties would yield 78 fixtures I think? You could run that over six months every second weekend - from April to September? Maybe it'd be a more 'honest' solution.

That said, I guess it'd put a lot more continuous pressure on players, many of who are holding down day jobs or studying etc.

randd1

BarryD wrote: »

But is this not a critical point? It's all very well saying that KK are marginally top of the pack and can be beaten on a 'good' day. The question is, can they be beaten twice?? Their record seems to suggest this is a strong point, their ability to come back after a loss or draw and prevail at second time of asking. You can't do anything about draws but the backdoor could be taken out.

Edited to add that Kilkenny were clearly the better team yesterday IMVHO and deserved to win by a bigger margin but is it good for the game overall that they have dominated so much in the winning stakes since 2000?

I think yes it is.

It will either force other counties to raise their game, or reward the county that maintains the standard.

Either way, as a result the best side will probably win. And I see nothing wrong with that.

Kkboy

BarryD wrote: »

Well, if you want to promote the idea of more competitive games, why not just scrap the idea of a supposedly knockout competition and just stick with a league with the winners being All Ireland champs. For arguments sake, a league with 12 counties would yield 78 fixtures I think? You could run that over six months every second weekend - from April to September? Maybe it'd be a more 'honest' solution.

That said, I guess it'd put a lot more continuous pressure on players, many of who are holding down day jobs or studying etc.

I agree that a league would be the fairest solution, but then you lose the thrill of semi final and finals. The most balanced solution would be an open draw but keep the back door system. I don't think Kilkenny would be the county with the strongest objection to such a proposal.

BarryD

BarryD wrote: »

But is this not a critical point? It's all very well saying that KK are marginally top of the pack and can be beaten on a 'good' day. The question is, can they be beaten twice?? Their record seems to suggest this is a strong point, their ability to come back after a loss or draw and prevail at second time of asking. You can't do anything about draws but the backdoor could be taken out.

Edited to add that Kilkenny were clearly the better team yesterday IMVHO and deserved to win by a bigger margin but is it good for the game overall that they have dominated so much in the winning stakes since 2000?

The reason we had arguably the greatest match of all time three weeks ago is that Kilkenny raised the bar to new extremes and on that day Tipp matched those extremes.

Rightwing

Deleted User wrote: »

The reason we had arguably the greatest match of all time three weeks ago is that Kilkenny raised the bar to new extremes and on that day Tipp matched those extremes.

Surpassed them, greatest display I've ever seen. Deserved an AI..

robbiezero

randd1 wrote: »

I think yes it is.

It will either force other counties to raise their game, or reward the county that maintains the standard.

Either way, as a result the best side will probably win. And I see nothing wrong with that.

Hurling at the current time is in decent health. The period 2005-2008 was a bit worring alright with the one-sided finals.
I am not one of those that creams their pants just because two different teams make the final in either football or hurling, but I do want to see good competitive games at the back end of the year no matter who is in them. While KK have won 3 of the last 4, we have had great games. 3 draws in 3 years and 5 different teams in the final points to much increased competition for the All-Ireland at the moment.
2015 should be mouth-watering. Wexford on the rise, a hurt Limerick, Tipp and Cork teams anxious to make up for heartbreaking defeats, hopefully a resurgent Clare and who knows what Galway will bring and as always the team to beat KK.

However Waterford, Dublin and Offaly need real work to catch up with the pack again.

Robson99

Kkboy wrote: »

I agree that a league would be the fairest solution, but then you lose the thrill of semi final and finals. The most balanced solution would be an open draw but keep the back door system. I don't think Kilkenny would be the county with the strongest objection to such a proposal.

Two groups of 5. Top group a play second group b and vice versa in semis. Then you would have competitive games all summer

randd1

Rightwing wrote: »

Surpassed them, greatest display I've ever seen. Deserved an AI..

No they didn't. If they deserved it, they would have won it.

It reminds me of people saying Waterford deserved an AI for all their great hurling in the 00's, yet they failed every year to even reach the final, expect from when they got to that one particular AI final and got absolutely hammered into the ground.

Personally I thought neither Tipp or Kilkenny deserved to lose, or win, the last day such was the performance from both sides.

Rightwing

randd1 wrote: »

No they didn't. If they deserved it, they would have won it.

It reminds me of people saying Waterford deserved an AI for all their great hurling in the 00's, yet they failed every year to even reach the final, expect from when they got to that one particular AI final and got absolutely hammered into the ground.

Personally I thought neither Tipp or Kilkenny deserved to lose, or win, the last day such was the performance from both sides.

You don't always get what you deserve. The waterford team deserved one, probably in 07.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Surpassed them, greatest display I've ever seen. Deserved an AI..

Had we conceded less then 3-22 or scored more then 1-28 then i would have agreed with you. We played brilliantly but if you dont win then the harsh fact is you haven't done enough. The openness of the game that day probably allowed us a route back into it. Yesterday the door was still slightly ajar but still not enough

randd1

Rightwing wrote: »

You don't always get what you deserve. The waterford team deserved one, probably in 07.

Once again, no, they didn't.

They had all the momentum that year in winning the League and Munster, were hurling at their best, but when push came to shove against Limerick in the SF, they failed to hold their nerve as favourites big time and cracked under the pressure, as well as being out-hurled on the day by Limerick.

If you can't even make the final, you don't deserve an AI.

Rightwing

randd1 wrote: »

Once again, no, they didn't.

They had all the momentum that year in winning the League and Munster, were hurling at their best, but when push came to shove against Limerick in the SF, they failed to hold their nerve as favourites big time and cracked under the pressure, as well as being out-hurled on the day by Limerick.

If you can't even make the final, you don't deserve an AI.

I was at that match, LK got a few sucker punch goals, 5 in total. KK struggled in the final v Limk, Waterford would have won that one.

citykat

Rightwing wrote: »

I was at that match, LK got a few sucker punch goals, 5 in total. KK struggled in the final v Limk, Waterford would have won that one.

Asinine comment. Not even the most avid WD fan would claim that.

Rightwing

citykat wrote: »

Asinine comment. Not even the most avid WD fan would claim that.

I've met plenty of them, at the time and since, who've also claimed it.

1 thing I'll give KK credit for, they've won countless leagues. We don't rate leagues, but they are a guide as to the best team in the country for that particular year.

randd1

Rightwing wrote: »

I was at that match, LK got a few sucker punch goals, 5 in total.

If you concede 5 goals in an AISF, that's not sucker punches, that's just plain bad defending.

Rightwing wrote: »

KK struggled in the final v Limk,

Was that the final in which Kilkenny were 9 points up in 8 minutes, lost Noel Hickey and Shefflin to injury by half time, and still won by 7 points without ever looking like they were going to be troubled? That AI?

Rightwing wrote: »

Waterford would have won that one.

They would have had to be in it to win it. They weren't, so how could they have won it?

citykat

Rightwing wrote: »

but they are a guide as to the best team in the country for that particular year.

No they're not. Lot of counties don't treat the league as seriously as KK and instead tailor their season towards the AI.

Rightwing

citykat wrote: »

No they're not. Lot of counties don't treat the league as seriously as KK and instead tailor their season towards the AI.

I'm not sure about that. Tipp & KK have been the 2 best teams over the last 6 years, and probably have been in as many league finals as AI finals. That's no coincidence.

Rightwing

randd1 wrote: »

If you concede 5 goals in an AISF, that's not sucker punches, that's just plain bad defending.



Was that the final in which Kilkenny were 9 points up in 8 minutes, lost Noel Hickey and Shefflin to injury by half time, and still won by 7 points without ever looking like they were going to be troubled? That AI?


They would have had to be in it to win it. They weren't, so how could they have won it?

They couldn't push on like they usually do. That start (first 10 mins worst referring performance I've ever seen from any ref in any sport) saved them.

Charlie69

I can't believe anybody takes this poster seriously , he's either been trolling all day or is very very drunk

Rightwing

Strange that KK clubs don't do better, can't remember off top of my head last time they won one.

randd1

Rightwing wrote: »

I've met plenty of them, at the time and since, who've also claimed it.

1 thing I'll give KK credit for, they've won countless leagues. We don't rate leagues, but they are a guide as to the best team in the country for that particular year.

I'd have to agree with you on this one. Look at the league finalists the last 9/10 years, its a fair barometer of who will go well in the summer, with last year being the exception.

Since 2001, there have been 7 League & Championship doubles, which is half the campaigns.

Galway in 2004 were the last league champions not to get to the AISF, while pretty much every league finalist for the last 10 years has had a long summer.

Whether people like to admit it or not, the league is becoming more important as preparation for the summer. Doing things right in March can set you up for a good crack at later on in the year, and vice versa, problems in March can manifest themselves in the summer.

citykat

randd1 wrote: »

I'd have to agree with you on this one. Look at the league finalists the last 9/10 years, its a fair barometer of who will go well in the summer, with last year being the exception.

Since 2001, there have been 7 League & Championship doubles, which is half the campaigns.

Galway in 2004 were the last league champions not to get to the AISF, while pretty much every league finalist for the last 10 years has had a long summer.

Whether people like to admit it or not, the league is becoming more important as preparation for the summer. Doing things right in March can set you up for a good crack at later on in the year, and vice versa, problems in March can manifest themselves in the summer.

Cork and Clare didn't fare too well in the league last year. KKs league form didn't carry them last year. Could be argued it took too much out of them. Cork and LK weren't affected by their league status this year.

randd1

randd1 wrote: »

I'd have to agree with you on this one. Look at the league finalists the last 9/10 years, its a fair barometer of who will go well in the summer, with last year being the exception.

Since 2001, there have been 7 League & Championship doubles, which is half the campaigns.

Galway in 2004 were the last league champions not to get to the AISF, while pretty much every league finalist for the last 10 years has had a long summer.

Whether people like to admit it or not, the league is becoming more important as preparation for the summer. Doing things right in March can set you up for a good crack at later on in the year, and vice versa, problems in March can manifest themselves in the summer.

I think the advantage of a long league campaign is the extra competitive games. Kilkenny realise they have a long gap between the league final and first round of the Leinster championship so maximise it to its fullest. It never harms to win it either as its a great tonic going into the Championship.

Always_Running

Opinions on team of year (all stars) guys?

CountyHurler

Des: "We're just gonna do this vote live here now and I'll keep track of the votes"...

*all judges vote for Richie Hogan from Kilkenny*

Des: "Okay so the votes go to Richie Hogan. We'll go to Claire now in Kilkenny"..

cue Claire with Richie Hogan in Nowlan Park, with the sun splitting the rocks...

Does Des Cahill think that we are all f**king stupid or something?

CountyHurler

Having said that I really enjoy the hurling panels that RTE have on.. All guys who have a huge love for the game, and dont go in for the trolling that Joe Brolly and Pat Spillane get involved in on the football panel... Even Donal Óg admitting tonight that the game has "doubled in standard" since he was playing shows you that they put their love of the game ahead of any petty rivalry or conceit.

Rightwing

Always_Running wrote: »

Opinions on team of year (all stars) guys?

Cork deserved to get someone on it. But who?! Tipp 6 players, too much for a team that won nothing and were beaten twice in the campaign.

Kkboy

Rightwing wrote: »

Strange that KK clubs don't do better, can't remember off top of my head last time they won one.

Strange how you thought the referee in the ladies football final was a man!!

letowski

Thought Barrett should have being in there, though I fully accept Murphy was outstanding. That said, 7 Tipp players would have been alot.

Amprodude

Tipp are never going to beat Kilkenny in a final again. They were outclassed once again when they were found wanting.

Amprodude

Amprodude wrote: »

Tipp are never going to beat Kilkenny in a final again. They were outclassed once again when they were found wanting.

Id be critical of some aspects of our game but jesus to be fair 3 points is hardly outclassed now. OK Kilkenny arguably could have won by more but we also had goal chances in that first half. It was a tough game and Kilkenny got a run on us at a crucial juncture. We forced the issue to the end. We were against possibly the best team to ever grace the game and in 140 mins of hurling we lost by a puck of a ball. The first day the margin was even closer, we were 2-3 inches away. Im confident that we'll be back. Only 2 years ago Tipperary hurling was in rabble after the farce at Croker that August.

I dont buy into the whole mental thing either. The margin for error is just very fine against Kilkenny as Limerick will verify. You have to look at things the first day like Larry hitting the post flush or Eoin Murphy's great saves. Look at JJ Delaney's amazing hook yesterday for instance. Some days you kick the door and the hinge just wont give in while other days it flies off.

Realt Dearg Sec

Amprodude wrote: »

Tipp are never going to beat Kilkenny in a final again. They were outclassed once again when they were found wanting.

Three weeks ago you said tipp were the better team and just needed to finish it out. Today they were outclassed again and well never beat us again apparently. When you look out the window I'm the morning and it's raining, do you say "it'll never be sunny again"? It's just how things are now. Before 2009 tipp people used to say kk don't beat tipp in finals. That was a view with about a century out useless evidence to back it up. Your new view was one you didn't agree with yourself on Saturday.

Deskjockey

Was there no man of the match award given on the Sunday game?

kala85

It was given on the day time program

nice_guy80

Cody has gone way down in my estimation criticising the referee from the first game

Hogan clearly charged into his man, with both feet off the ground.

Kilkenny got the ref they wanted/needed for the reply and took full advantage

adrian522

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cody has gone way down in my estimation criticising the referee from the first game

Hogan clearly charged into his man, with both feet off the ground.

Kilkenny got the ref they wanted/needed for the reply and took full advantage

Why would they want or need a ref giving soft penalties to the opposition?
How does that help? You're really clutching at straws now.

IrishAlice

Rightwing wrote: »

Cork deserved to get someone on it. But who?! Tipp 6 players, too much for a team that won nothing and were beaten twice in the campaign.

I was full sure that they were going to have Daniel Kearney in there. Thought he had a great year.

Totally agree that Cork deserved someone to be named, they're munster champions afterall and neither Limerick or Tipp have any silverware this year.

Not a criticism of either of those teams just seems the Sunday Game have short memories.

Orizio

IrishAlice wrote: »

I was full sure that they were going to have Daniel Kearney in there. Thought he had a great year.

Totally agree that Cork deserved someone to be named, they're munster champions afterall and neither Limerick or Tipp have any silverware this year.

Not a criticism of either of those teams just seems the Sunday Game have short memories.

Cork didn't deserve anyone. McDonnell was the closest, but if Barrett can't get on it Stevie Mac can't either. Kearney made more than a couple of mistakes against Tipp and didn't do much in the second half.

Ultimately the big game for Cork was the AI semi, and the Cork team by and large was awful.

robbiezero

Orizio wrote: »

Cork didn't deserve anyone. McDonnell was the closest, but if Barrett can't get on it Stevie Mac can't either. Kearney made more than a couple of mistakes against Tipp and didn't do much in the second half.

Ultimately the big game for Cork was the AI semi, and the Cork team by and large was awful.

He would not have been ahead of Shane McGrath for me, who was very unlucky not to be on it.

MisterAnarchy

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cody has gone way down in my estimation criticising the referee from the first game

Hogan clearly charged into his man, with both feet off the ground.

Kilkenny got the ref they wanted/needed for the reply and took full advantage

Cody has been influencing the GAA and the way games are refereed for years.
Every spring he has his usual whinge that manliness is in danger of going out of the game. Cody playing mind games as usual, if refs start clamping down on the "dark arts" then his team are the ones most likely to suffer.
RTE and GAA HQ pander to his every point.

Fair play to Donal Og Cusack on the Sunday Game last night ,he was the only pundit highly critical of the referees appalling performance .
He highlighted the huge amount of foul play ,and especially the use of the spare hand ,that went unpunished ,it was a free for all .
Gavin was using his own rules in his words .
Interestingly Michael Kavanagh replied with a straight face that Kilkenny defenders will do whatever is necessary to win.
If that really is what's necessary to win, it's an indictment of the way the game is going .

Finally this description of playing "On the Edge" actually means fouling but getting away with it .

STIG83

When the All stars awards on lads? Richie Hogan will get HOTY.

Who will get YHOTY? P Walsh? Tommy's brother maybe?

Realt Dearg Sec

STIG83 wrote: »

P Walsh? Tommy's brother maybe?

He's 22, though, right? Think YHOTY has to be under 21. I would be guessing a Limerick player might sneak it.

Fireball07

Pretty much a straight shoot-out between Dowling & Barrett.

STIG83

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

He's 22, though, right? Think YHOTY has to be under 21. I would be guessing a Limerick player might sneak it.

Didn't know the player had to be under 21.

Any idea when the awards night on tv?
Is it usually October or Nov?

Realt Dearg Sec

Fireball07 wrote: »

Pretty much a straight shoot-out between Dowling & Barrett.

Forgot about Barrett, yeah him or Shane Dowling, and having made the finals you'd probably expect it to go to him.

Realt Dearg Sec

STIG83 wrote: »

Didn't know the player had to be under 21.

Any idea when the awards night on tv?
Is it usually October or Nov?

No idea, it can be a bit of a let down, especially if it's a year where the All stars in hurling have been released to the papers before hand (I know it alternates, the papers get the football or the hurling each year). I tend to be much more excited about watching the documentaries on the championship that usually air around Christmas. Or failing that, throwing on the Final after Christmas dinner with a can of Smithwicks in hand.

STIG83

Any idea why the don't do Hurling: Final words anymore? They were good to watch, the 2004 one was good. Think it somewhere around here on VHS or a DVD.

Realt Dearg Sec

STIG83 wrote: »

Any idea why the don't do Hurling: Final words anymore? They were good to watch, the 2004 one was good. Think it somewhere around here on VHS or a DVD.

Yeah they replayed that recently, but how many other ones did they actually do? I remember them doing a pretty good one about the 6 nations as well. Great production values, Martin Comerford tends to be worth tuning in for alone, entertaining lad to listen to. The trilogy documentary was good as well, although I suppose it's a little outdated by now because it really only tells a fraction of the story at this stage.

STIG83

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah they replayed that recently, but how many other ones did they actually do? I remember them doing a pretty good one about the 6 nations as well. Great production values, Martin Comerford tends to be worth tuning in for alone, entertaining lad to listen to. The trilogy documentary was good as well, although I suppose it's a little outdated by now because it really only tells a fraction of the story at this stage.

Think 2003 aswell as 04 not sure after that.
I remember Shefflin on the 04 one and after everything he says 'You know' was the end of the sentence.
Must root it out.