Card minimum spend!

Guy:Incognito

pickarooney wrote: »

Why don't shops just charge the 25c to the customer in this case instead of eveyone ending up frustrated and annoyed and the transaction cancelled and possibly food and drink going to waste?

Like they do with call credit that ends up with people frustrated and annoyed?

srsly78

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Are for-profit businesses not money making rackets by definition?

Yes but it's bad for the economy in general when it's done at the expense of efficiency. If everyone could use their cards quickly for small purchases this would mean less queueing and probably more sales! Customer would be happy and so would the merchant.

This is why we do not have a really free market, there are lots of areas where the government intervenes. Monopolies get broken, consumer rights etc.

darkpagandeath

Was this practice not made illegal under one of them EU consumer laws ? that's why you don't see them signs much anymore.

EyeSight

CruelCoin wrote: »

The margin a business sets for itself covers much more than just the "am i in the black" factor.

Small business owners tend to work far longer weeks, with much greater levels of stress than the average 9-5er.
The margin they aim for is there to not only allow for business buffer/growth, but to act as compensation for the time and stress.
If you're saying they shoul;d be happier with the reduced margins, why not go a step further and encourage them to say "**** it, i'd be happier with a clockin card".

But unless their business solely relied on 1 euro purchases it shouldn't make a difference. By your argument it would make sense for them to not accept cards at all.
Sure they may not make a big profit on small items(although still a profit) but they are making themselves less convenient to customers. Customers who will say "no i won't shop there cause they don't take card, might just pop into Dunnes instead".

As i said before though, this used to(maybe this has changed, i don't know) happen in Centra, which is not a small business.

Calibos

With regard to the phone credit, the latest margin decrease finally meant that most complaints about our surcharging phone credit stopped. You could explain the need for viable margins and your need to surcharge to a complaining customer till the cows came home and be met with fingers in ears Lalalalalala "€5 credit should cost €5 godammit". When the margin reduction from the phone companies to the wholesaler systems (PostPoint/Payzone) was passed on in full by them to retailers once again and finally pushed the wholesale price past the face value, retailers were finally able to get customers to grasp the need to surcharge to make something on the fecking things. ie. I can't viably sell the '€5' credit to you for €5 when it costs me €5.25. Payzone and Postpoint actually recommended retailers start surcharging the 5's and 10's if they weren't already. An example of why retailers surcharge the margin reduced but still below face value wholesale priced €15,€20,€30 etc was highlighted to me by my boss when he showed me the Weekly summary printout from the machine from before the latest margin reduction. On €1290 sales the retailer commission/margin was €19. 19 feckin euro!! It costed about €5 in bank charges to lodge that €1290, reducing the profit to €14 on €1290 of sales. Thats why there is a surcharge.

shruikan2553

Calibos wrote: »

With regard to the phone credit, the latest margin decrease finally meant that most complaints about our surcharging phone credit stopped. You could explain the need for viable margins and your need to surcharge to a complaining customer till the cows came home and be met with fingers in ears Lalalalalala "€5 credit should cost €5 godammit". When the margin reduction from the phone companies to the wholesaler systems (PostPoint/Payzone) was passed on in full by them to retailers once again and finally pushed the wholesale price past the face value, retailers were finally able to get customers to grasp the need to surcharge to make something on the fecking things. ie. I can't viably sell the '€5' credit to you for €5 when it costs me €5.25. Payzone and Postpoint actually recommended retailers start surcharging the 5's and 10's if they weren't already. An example of why retailers surcharge the margin reduced but still below face value wholesale priced €15,€20,€30 etc was highlighted to me by my boss when he showed me the Weekly summary printout from the machine from before the latest margin reduction. On €1290 sales the retailer commission/margin was €19. 19 feckin euro!! It costed about €5 in bank charges to lodge that €1290, reducing the profit to €14 on €1290 of sales. Thats why there is a surcharge.

How much of a margin should there be? They arent making a loss, the bank fees are a different problem. The idea is to draw people in and maybe buy something, if its not worth it then don't bother with it.

srsly78

They probably are making a loss when you take in staff cost and electricity to run the machine. However you are right, it's to get the punters in and spending.

Shakespeare's Sister

What makes people so precious that they can't carry around minimal cash, e.g. a tenner and a few coins?

enda1

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

What makes people so precious that they can't carry around minimal cash, e.g. a tenner and a few coins?

What makes small shops so precious that on the one hand they complain about those dastardly big shops ruining our towns and taking their custom, and the other refuse the customers shifting pattern towards electronic payment.
I like only to ever pay electronically as I can then see easily and quickly where my money goes. (plus I get loads of airmiles from it)

ukoda

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

What makes people so precious that they can't carry around minimal cash, e.g. a tenner and a few coins?

What makes companies and people so backward that they can't embrace the convenience of digital payments, in a world that's ever changing to digital everything.

Shakespeare's Sister

Doesn't answer my question. What is so terrible about carrying a minimal amount of cash? Just looks like needing something to complain about. Cash is needed for lots of stuff still, anyway.

enda1

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Doesn't answer my question. What is so terrible about carrying a minimal amount of cash? Just looks like needing something to complain about. Cash is needed for lots of stuff still, anyway.

Pain in the ass, that's why! You may have this limited amount, but then you spend it and you've none until you reach an atm (which works and where there is not an insufferably long line). There are very few occasions where I'll pay in cash to be honest. I can't think of the last time I did actually. Maybe it was at a market.. hmm

Shakespeare's Sister

Ah here, manufactured problem or what!

enda1

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Ah here, manufactured problem or what!

Not having money in your wallet and then being refused card payment is a manufactured problem?

osarusan

Maybe the introduction of a card like a pasmo?

It's a rechargeable card, designed to get people through train/subway ticket barriers more quickly, but its use is spreading and it can now be used in many different chain shops, especially convenience stores. You press the card against an electronic receiver and that's it.

I guess there's the same issue of the shop needing to pay a tiny commission on sales uusing this payment system though.

enda1

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe the introduction of a card like a pasmo?

It's a rechargeable card, designed to get people through train/subway ticket barriers more quickly, but its use is spreading and it can now be used in many different chain shops, especially convenience stores. You press the card against an electronic receiver and that's it.

I guess there's the same issue of the shop needing to pay a tiny commission on sales uusing this payment system though.

We already have contactless payment - why introduce another form of dead money like cash?

Posted a query on ask aib. It appears that not only should they have no lower limit, they shouldnt charge a transaction fee either. He didnt answer what a customer should do about it though.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057286157/1/#post92120843

smash

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe the introduction of a card like a pasmo?

It's a rechargeable card, designed to get people through train/subway ticket barriers more quickly, but its use is spreading and it can now be used in many different chain shops, especially convenience stores. You press the card against an electronic receiver and that's it.

I guess there's the same issue of the shop needing to pay a tiny commission on sales uusing this payment system though.

We have leap cards which are pretty much defunct in terms of technology because of the new visa debit contactless cards. Why would we need another one?

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

Sheldons Brain

ukoda wrote: »

What makes companies and people so backward that they can't embrace the convenience of digital payments, in a world that's ever changing to digital everything.

This tread is not about the concept of digital payments in general, but about digital payments for small amounts. Not everything has to be digital.

Shops are not exactly goldmines in general, and people acting the maggot with cards for small transactions removes their profit entirely in many cases.

Senna

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Posted a query on ask aib. It appears that not only should they have no lower limit, they shouldnt charge a transaction fee either. He didnt answer what a customer should do about it though.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057286157/1/#post92120843

Yes they're the good guys, tell the customer the business is in the wrong when the business is fed up trying to absorb AIB's ever increasing banking costs. Great deflection there from AIB

Plus, to everyone saying "in breach of merchant service agreement", you think the merchant doesn't know what's going on, I discussed it with an area rep not that long ago, we don't have minimum spends but we do have maximum spends. If someone wants to pay €5000 with a credit/debit card, it going to cost us €75-€125, so it's not accepted. But we do talk to the customer beforehand to let them know we can't accept a card.

cillit_bang

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This tread is not about the concept of digital payments in general, but about digital payments for small amounts. Not everything has to be digital.

Shops are not exactly goldmines in general, and people acting the maggot with cards for small transactions removes their profit entirely in many cases.

Well, as we have learned, more than likely there is no 'minimum spend' under the terms and condtions the shop signed up to. So in effect, they are breaking the rules by even signing up to accept digital payments and then only accepting certain limits.

Having your cake and eating it really.

Senna

Senna wrote: »

Yes they're the good guys, tell the customer the business is in the wrong when the business is fed up trying to absorb AIB's ever increasing banking costs. Great deflection there from AIB

I don't dispute that they are getting stung but retailers should get together and lobby fir change. Be it reduction of fees or changing t&c's.

Balmed Out

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Posted a query on ask aib. It appears that not only should they have no lower limit, they shouldnt charge a transaction fee either. He didnt answer what a customer should do about it though.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057286157/1/#post92120843

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/joy-consumers-hidden-credit-card-3688654

Pretty sure they can charge a fee as long as their not charging more then the cost of the credit card transaction?

swampy353

Balmed Out wrote: »

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/joy-consumers-hidden-credit-card-3688654

Pretty sure they can charge a fee as long as their not charging more then the cost of the credit card transaction?

They can charge a fee if they display a notice at the entrance to the premises

osarusan

smash wrote: »

We have leap cards which are pretty much defunct in terms of technology because of the new visa debit contactless cards. Why would we need another one?

Fair enough, I did not know about new contactless debit cards.

ukoda

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This tread is not about the concept of digital payments in general, but about digital payments for small amounts. Not everything has to be digital.

Shops are not exactly goldmines in general, and people acting the maggot with cards for small transactions removes their profit entirely in many cases.

This thread is all about the refusal of digital payments for small amounts. My point is, don't fight it, embrace it.

The banks are not currently charging a fee for contactless payments under €15

All I'm saying is that the trend is moving to a cashless society. They can either complain about it or embrace it

srsly78

Card payments have a bad rep with some people because the older systems were so slow. The newer systems can be even faster than using cash - but it all still relies on the card terminal contacting the processor for authorisation. For many rural merchants this will be a problem, the slow machines still use dialup in many cases. I saw one machine recently that used a 3g connection, but had a very weak signal - so staff would often have to retry over and over until it worked.

Shakespeare's Sister

enda1 wrote: »

Not having money in your wallet and then being refused card payment is a manufactured problem?

Well it's not much of one, but I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to your reasoning for it being such an inconvenience to have cash on you (tantamount to "going to the ATM is a pain in the arse").

Ken Shamrock

Pablo Piccante, Baggot st, all burritos cost say €7 and beside the counter is a big fridge full of drinks, you order Burrito, present your card lady says sorry we have an €8 minimum...you take out a drink that you don't want, and there all massively over priced €2:20 for a coke €3 something for lucozade etc, load of my bollox but an excellent business plan ha

I Heart Internet

I've been in a largish (by Irish town supermarket standards) and been told that "we don't accept cards for less than €10). I had like €8 worth of shopping. The shop's resident ATM was out of order and I had no cash. So was a bit of a stand-off.

Eventually the manager OK'd the transaction. It was a case of "well, do you want me to just not buy this stuff?"

pickarooney

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Like they do with call credit that ends up with people frustrated and annoyed?

Why does call credit even exist any more? There's no reason for it nowadays.

EyeSight

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This tread is not about the concept of digital payments in general, but about digital payments for small amounts. Not everything has to be digital.

Shops are not exactly goldmines in general, and people acting the maggot with cards for small transactions removes their profit entirely in many cases.

No it does not. Unless the purchase is 25 cent, and even then how many times would they expect this to happen? I'm pretty sure even the 2 euro store takes card :pac:

Ireland needs to get with the times. People prefer not to carry cash, to track what they spend and not have to visit an ATM often. What if they are caught in an emergency and have no cash?
I hate ATMs around Dublin. At xmas or nightime on a weekend there is a huge line, there's always a junkie sitting next to them asking constantly for money and most of the time they only give out 50's. Try going to a store for some chewing gum and giving them a 50 euro note, they probably won't take that either.

I also think more places(not everyone) should do cash back but i'm not going to get into that

rubadub

same ol sh1te wrote: »

If more did the same they'd soon change their policy

Some shops did end up changing their policy, they put the prices up on everything so now the cash payers are in effect subsidising people using cards.

I like to see shops who do have min charges, since I like to pay my own way and don't like the idea of others having to subsidise my choice to use a card.

Same reason I would not use paypal on online stores I trust, by increasing the shops profits they can hopefully still offer me stuff at good prices in the future.

We are all paying our own way. Nonsense to say cash buyers are subsidising card buyers (if the shop traded as per the t&c's).

If the shop didn't have a card machine would it still be the fault of the card buyers when the owner increases their prices due to the fact that said buyers now shop elsewhere?

This has nothing to do with customers. It's an issue for shop owners and the merchants. Negotiate a better deal for themselves. Is there no shop owners association similar to vitners who are meant to lobby these issues on behalf of their members?

EyeSight

rubadub wrote: »

Some shops did end up changing their policy, they put the prices up on everything so now the cash payers are in effect subsidising people using cards.

I like to see shops who do have min charges, since I like to pay my own way and don't like the idea of others having to subsidise my choice to use a card.

Same reason I would not use paypal on online stores I trust, by increasing the shops profits they can hopefully still offer me stuff at good prices in the future.

that is such nonsense!
Banks charge shops for storing their cash, getting change and some stores pay securicor guys to take their money to the bank. I guess card users are subsidizing that :rolleyes:

ardmacha

EyeSight wrote: »

that is such nonsense!
Banks charge shops for storing their cash, getting change and some stores pay securicor guys to take their money to the bank. I guess card users are subsidizing that :rolleyes:

But sure the shop wouldn't need to get change if people would use it to pay for their small purchases instead of going on to Boards to complain.

shruikan2553

ardmacha wrote: »

But sure the shop wouldn't need to get change if people would use it to pay for their small purchases instead of going on to Boards to complain.

They also wouldn't need change if everyone paid by card but they would still need to transport and lodge the cash otherwise..

EyeSight

ardmacha wrote: »

But sure the shop wouldn't need to get change if people would use it to pay for their small purchases instead of going on to Boards to complain.

Or if they took only card they wouldn't need change

At the end of the day, businesses always need to adapt to what customers want/need. People prefer paying with cash and they prefer places to be convenient. If your shop cannot or will not adapt to the times then fine, but don't complain that people rather shop at tesco metro.

rubadub

EyeSight wrote: »

that is such nonsense!
Banks charge shops for storing their cash, getting change and some stores pay securicor guys to take their money to the bank. I guess card users are subsidizing that :rolleyes:

There are charges alright, this topic has come up several times in the consumer forum and several retailers posted confirming the cash overheads are cheaper.

So now does your little mind understand the sense behind what I am saying...

I have seen a few articles online discussing my "nonsense", and how some stores offer incentives to cash payers as a way to circumvent the card companies slick method of having the messenger shot.

EyeSight

rubadub wrote: »

There are charges alright, this topic has come up several times in the consumer forum and several retailers posted confirming the cash overheads are cheaper.

So now does your little mind understand the sense behind what I am saying...

I have seen a few articles online discussing my "nonsense", and how some stores offer incentives to cash payers as a way to circumvent the card companies slick method of having the messenger shot.

Still nonsense. I can find articles online about how the moon is made of cheese, still wouldn't make it right. Yes there are card charges, but there are also cash charges and it's not right to say cash users are subsidizing card users. Companies need to adapt or perish

If card purchases are as huge a drain as you say, then stores should get together and re-negotiate with the merchants for different charges.
You mentioned that you don't use paypal on some sites to save the sites money and in turn get lower prices. Unless you're sending cash in the correct currency to the online company, they still pay merchant fees. If they get more profits that does not mean they will lower prices. E.g. Amazon take their profits and reinvest in other technologies(such as their phone or buying Twitch). IF you see prices drop on Amazon it's because they are either buying more in bulk or buying from suppliers for less(look at their dispute with Hatchet publishing).
Take a while to let your "big mind" comprehend

Sheldons Brain

EyeSight wrote: »

Yes there are card charges, but there are also cash charges and it's not right to say cash users are subsidizing card users.

The behaviour of shops, who are the professionals, suggest otherwise. If you have evidence about charges to contradict the contention that cash users are not subsidising card users, then produce it.

Ranchu

If it was viable for small shops to not have a minimum charge they wouldn't have one. Do people think they are doing it for the craic? That would be demented.

ErnieBert

I saw a man trying to buy a box of matches with his card.

The guy behind the counter said he had to pay 40c per transaction.

The price of the matches was 30c.

I this a new form of negative equity ?

Books4you

I work in a small shop where there is a minimum spend of €10 to use your card. If you want to use your card for under that amount there is an extra charge of 20cent to cover the card charge. I cringe every time i have to say it to people! Some people look as if they are going to hop the counter and clock ya! I can understand why our shop does it, very small takings for certain months of the year and nowadays everyone is using a card. The smallest i have been handed a card for was €1!! €1! I just cannot understand people not having a cent on them coming in to a shop for something that small!

the_syco

How does the €15 max spend for the wireless card transactions fit into the minimum spend?

Shakespeare's Sister

Books4you wrote: »

The smallest i have been handed a card for was €1!! €1! I just cannot understand people not having a cent on them coming in to a shop for something that small!

Yeh I agree with not carrying much cash (learned my fecking lesson one day when I unwittingly dropped my wallet containing over 200 euro outside a shop; thankfully the shop assistant spotted it and kept it behind the counter for me) but people are just making things inconvenient for themselves by carrying no cash at all.
Expecting to pay for one euro by card is ridiculous.

The Purveyor of Truth

Books4you wrote: »

The smallest i have been handed a card for was €1!! €1! I just cannot understand people not having a cent on them coming in to a shop for something that small!

Some people are just skint, I'm often one of them, and may just have €17 or so in the bank and so can't just easily go to an ATM and take it out. When I'm in that situation, will just go somewhere that has the auto teller machines and use the card there.

Books4you

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Yeh I agree with not carrying much cash (learned my fecking lesson one day when I unwittingly dropped my wallet containing over 200 euro outside a shop; thankfully the shop assistant spotted it and kept it behind the counter for me) but people are just making things inconvenient for themselves by carrying no cash at all.
Expecting to pay for one euro by card is ridiculous.

Exactly. It's people like that that make small businesses put up the minimum spend signs to be honest. A couple of years ago it was maybe ( in our shop) 2 -3 cards a day. Now it's nearly every second person. And to be fair from our shop there are 3 atm machines within 1 min walk if they really don't want to incur the charge. Although i have to say i would prefer if it was a €5 min spend not €10 (was €15) in our shop. I think €5 is fair enough, have brought it up before but got shot down. Ah well...

Shakespeare's Sister

The Purveyor of Truth wrote: »

Some people are just skint, I'm often one of them, and may just have €17 or so in the bank and so can't just easily go to an ATM and take it out. When I'm in that situation, will just go somewhere that has the auto teller machines and use the card there.

Yeh I know people are broke, but even just to ensure when possible that they'd have a fiver or tenner in case they need cash.