New events structure

P2C

Interesting proposal and probably a game changer for the sport in Ireland. Overall I really like the proposals for draft legal events but could nit pick at the minor details. I will probably make a submission re same.

On the Tri Ireland website

The selection of events and 750 minimum capacity really points towards the super series being handed to the current big events in Ireland and frankly having done all (except Dublin City) I avoid them like the plague with the exception of Killkee. I wouldn't be surprised if the races have being selected already.

National Super Series 2015 ( Prediction)

Lough Cultra (Although doesn't reach the criteria)
Killkee (Cant see it ever being draft legal)
Tri Athy ( Can be draft legal)
Athlone (Can be draft legal)
Dublin City (Can be draft legal)
Belfast Titanic (Although doesnt reach the criteria)
Lanesboro (Already draft legal )

I don't see the point of any other additional national series events. This is obviously to appease the clubs. If they want to have stiff competition in division 1 and age groups they should not dilute any further and anyone who wants national series, national champs etc really need to target these six events. I don't think TI realise that the current system is completely flawed and is more about race selection than standard of racers.

A big gripe I have is the criteira of hosting national series for 2 years. I know currently of some NS events that should never of being given such status. They can now be automatically included. While some of the best events in the country have never received NS status will be excluded. Again the previous flawed selection procedure wins out again and favors the clubs/commercial races with there foot well in the door.

I really think they should go further with the prize fund and set the prizes amount for each of these races. Some of the prizes that races have being administering are completely shocking. Races taking in over €30,000 in entrys given a bottle of cheap plonk for or €30 quid for a podium finish will be in the past only if TI implement the rules

tunney

Read that document when it came out.

Full link here


Next year will be farce-central.

Tom__JNR

it makes a lot of sense. however most of the tri-athletes here prefer non-drafting races.
if i were TI i would also add:

1. the requirement for NS races to disclose prizes before the race
2. athletes from div1 would be guaranteed places even if race is sold out

p.s. there was no single race this year which attracted all top athletes. that's something TI should work on as well (encourage race organisers to invite athletes with free entry etc...)

EC1000

Tom__JNR wrote: »

2. athletes from div1 would be guaranteed places even if race is sold out.............

(encourage race organisers to invite athletes with free entry etc...)

Have you ever organised a race?!!

Tom__JNR

EC1000 wrote: »

Have you ever organised a race?!!

Have you ever won a race?!!

EC1000

Tom__JNR wrote: »

Have you ever won a race?!!

I rest my case....

tunney

Tom__JNR wrote: »

it makes a lot of sense. however most of the tri-athletes here prefer non-drafting races.
if i were TI i would also add:

1. the requirement for NS races to disclose prizes before the race
2. athletes from div1 would be guaranteed places even if race is sold out

p.s. there was no single race this year which attracted all top athletes. that's something TI should work on as well (encourage race organisers to invite athletes with free entry etc...)

Are you one of these people who confuses fast age groupers and elites?

Tom__JNR

tunney wrote: »

Are you one of these people who confuses fast age groupers and elites?

No, just see that developing juniors, u23 athletes is the ultimate goal. Judging from this year no race with all top athletes. (Ireland based athletes). I don't mean BK or other ITU lads. Also it is too easy to get the podium on NS race cuz is way too many of them and they give points in the same way.

Prizes, entries should help and not too stop anyone who is racing to win it from any race. Great idea to have best in the same wave. Wonder how they do it in Athy???

However as I said before majority of athletes prefer non-drafting races.

peter kern

EC1000 wrote: »

Have you ever organised a race?!!

i would know of at least one race that would do that and its based on how the ballycotten 10 miler does it
( its one of the best and oldest triathlons irleand)

there was a good article on slowtwitch how this can be made easier.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Are you one of these people who confuses fast age groupers and elites?

2 years ago I spoke with a triathlete that is a stenght and condioning coach that works with a team that won an all ireland title and he said most gaa playees apart from maybe a few who are real elite level are at or below irish top ager tri standard and lets say good standart start at aobut 585 (plus minus 5 races depending on choice of races) points for nat series

peter kern

and lastely i think the TI proposal is a good step in the right direction.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

2 years ago I spoke with a triathlete that is a stenght and condioning coach that works with a team that won an all ireland title and he said most gaa playees apart from maybe a few who are real elite level are at or below irish top ager tri standard and lets say good standart start at aobut 585 (plus minus 5 races depending on choice of races) points for nat series

Apples and oranges Peter.

What gaa players cannot swim as well as triathletes?
Gaa players cannot run a 10km as fast as a triathlete?

I suggest that if you want others to respect your sport that you respect others.

Ever tried to knock one over from the 65?

Podge83

A quick question:

If a race is officially draft legal does that mean that all will have to use road bikes for that race?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Apples and oranges Peter.

What gaa players cannot swim as well as triathletes?
Gaa players cannot run a 10km as fast as a triathlete?

I suggest that if you want others to respect your sport that you respect others.

Ever tried to knock one over from the 65?

this was not my opinion, I quote somebody with a better insight than myself , and i did not show disprespect as I respect every sport.

peter kern

Podge83 wrote: »

A quick question:

If a race is officially draft legal does that mean that all will have to use road bikes for that race?

it will mean that you cant have the shifter in the bars and the bars have to be behind the front of the handlebar. and you have to have more than 12 spokes for each wheel . so you could still use your tri bike if you modyfy your tri bike .

google tom anhalt and he i think has a good solution to change and s5 quickly from tt bike to road bike

RICHIE-RICH

IMO draft legal is not in the spirit of triathlon.

The sport is about a swim, bike and run. The art of Tri is combining these events well. Draft legal punishes the slower swimmers unfairly, as a fast swimmer/average cyclist can get to the run faster than an average swimmer/good cyclist, if they can get into a group moving at a decent pace. The average cyclist can just hang at the back and get pulled along.

If draft legal comes in, you can be sure this board will be full of complaints of wheel suckers and hangers on, ruining the race.

Keep it draft illegal please.

@podge83:


The ITU rules for draft legal bikes - sound like road bikes with clip on TT bars.

For draft-legal races the following handlebar rules will apply:
• Only traditional drop handlebars are permitted. The handlebars must be
plugged;
• Certified clip-on handlebars will be permitted if they are not longer than
the foremost line of the brake levers.
• No space is permitted between the left and right hand side of the clip-on
bar at its forward most point.
• Forward facing handlebars must have a solid standard factory bridge
joining both sides of the handlebar at its forward most point.
• Brake levers must be mounted on the handlebar, not on the clip-on and
may not face forward.
• No forward facing gear shifters are allowed on the end of the clip-on
handlebars.
• The height difference between the highest point of the handlebar and the
lowest inner part of the elbow rest cannot exceed 10 cm.

desertcircus

RICHIE-RICH wrote: »

IMO draft legal is not in the spirit of triathlon.

The sport is about a swim, bike and run. The art of Tri is combining these events well. Draft legal punishes the slower swimmers unfairly, as a fast swimmer/average cyclist can get to the run faster than an average swimmer/good cyclist, if they can get into a group moving at a decent pace. The average cyclist can just hang at the back and get pulled along.

If draft legal comes in, you can be sure this board will be full of complaints of wheel suckers and hangers on, ruining the race.

Keep it draft illegal please.

@podge83:


The ITU rules for draft legal bikes - sound like road bikes with clip on TT bars.

For draft-legal races the following handlebar rules will apply:
• Only traditional drop handlebars are permitted. The handlebars must be
plugged;
• Certified clip-on handlebars will be permitted if they are not longer than
the foremost line of the brake levers.
• No space is permitted between the left and right hand side of the clip-on
bar at its forward most point.
• Forward facing handlebars must have a solid standard factory bridge
joining both sides of the handlebar at its forward most point.
• Brake levers must be mounted on the handlebar, not on the clip-on and
may not face forward.
• No forward facing gear shifters are allowed on the end of the clip-on
handlebars.
• The height difference between the highest point of the handlebar and the
lowest inner part of the elbow rest cannot exceed 10 cm.

There are pure road cyclists who would argue that racing without drafting isn't true racing, and that skilled bunch riding is an integral part of racing. "No drafting" isn't any purer a form of racing than draft legal.

Wheelsuckers in road racing are dealt with pretty effectively: if you don't take your turn on the rivet, you get dropped (or punched repeatedly, as in the Vuelta last week).

tunney

desertcircus wrote: »

There are pure road cyclists who would argue that racing without drafting isn't true racing, and that skilled bunch riding is an integral part of racing. "No drafting" isn't any purer a form of racing than draft legal.

Very true. In cycling.

desertcircus wrote: »

Wheelsuckers in road racing are dealt with pretty effectively: if you don't take your turn on the rivet, you get dropped (or punched repeatedly, as in the Vuelta last week).

Ever raced A4 in Ireland?

Fazz

I read the previous doc from TI and was under the assumption that maybe 1 draft legal race for 2015, and see how that goes.

I see from the doc in earlier post that the submission is for any/all draft legal races where possible for the Super Series or Div 1 races.

Massive game changer there so, but would no doubt lead to increasing juniors and ITU style of racing for development of the grass roots which is the direction TI want to go it seems.

Important not to forget about the mass athletes that probably want to race with no drafting, but may like to dabble into a draft legal race or two should they qualify.

There is one huge problem that is perhaps not being considered here - Road Safety.
I don't think any race in Ireland closes roads anymore, with perhaps the exception of Dublin City though not officially closed (not sure? )

To run a draft legal race, you will have bunches of 2-3-4 athletes wide and must have closed roads.
Technically, you should also have roads wide enough for this (Dublin City is touch and go here on some sections).

It's unrealistic to think oh it will be fine athletes will just pair up and go 2 wide like on a training ride. That doesn't even happen at the top level.

I think it's very much premature for TI to invite submissions for a number of draft legal races when not one has even been tested or tried.
Irish Cycling races went through a spate of bad accidents in the last year, I'd hate for Triathlon to go through the same.
A minor mention of "some degree of bike handling for draft legal races".

Personally, I'd invite Dublin City to have a draft legal race only as a tester on a relatively controlled course (& lapped course so spectators may benefit).
This may have to be a separate race initially as could not go on at the same time as non draft legal obviously.

Alternatively, a draft legal wave could be set up at say Kilkee (ironic anyone :pac: ), and they go off first and so no interference or crash issues with the rest of the race.
In that sense, Dublin City and it's lapped course would be a hinderance as would need to be one or the other at one time.


Whilst overall I like the direction TI are going with the less races counting for results and likely best athletes racing each other more, I'm not sure if all of these should be draft legal or if the athletes would want it.

An Athlete Survey from TI would have gone a long way to discovering the appetite here too.
The reps at the regional meetings must make up a very minor reference point.


But the overall biggest issue is how can TI ask for Draft Legal Race submissions with no mention of a requirement for closed roads? (Or did I miss that bit? - hopefully I did!).

DaveR1

Fazz wrote: »

But the overall biggest issue is how can TI ask for Draft Legal Race submissions with no mention of a requirement for closed roads? (Or did I miss that bit? - hopefully I did!).

I don't see why closed roads are an issue? 90 % of bike races go ahead on OPEN country roads with A3 and A4 bunches of over 100 people. Cars coming against the peleton around bends on a decent with no road markings. It all works. (Just about in some cases) but it works.

There will only be 50 - 60 in the draft legal race, spread across a number of bunches. Dublin is the only course in the country where I don't think it would work due to other waves appearing on the lapped course. From my experience with bike racing I can't see any major issue with open roads.

desertcircus

tunney wrote: »

Very true. In cycling.



Ever raced A4 in Ireland?

No, I haven't - that's a fair point. I just don't like the assumption that draft legal is a less pure form of racing. It requires slightly different skills, that's all, and I don't see why it should be dismissed as the wrong test of bike racing skills.

A lesser issue I have is that triathlon is a sport with a fairly high price tag, and draft legal racing would go some way to neutralising the advantages money can buy. In a no-drafting race, a TT bike and helmet are a massive advantage: in draft-legal, more advantage is drawn from acquired skills rather than expensive aerodynamic solutions.

tunney

desertcircus wrote: »

No, I haven't - that's a fair point. I just don't like the assumption that draft legal is a less pure form of racing. It requires slightly different skills, that's all, and I don't see why it should be dismissed as the wrong test of bike racing skills.

But its not a bike racing event is it?

desertcircus wrote: »

A lesser issue I have is that triathlon is a sport with a fairly high price tag, and draft legal racing would go some way to neutralising the advantages money can buy. In a no-drafting race, a TT bike and helmet are a massive advantage: in draft-legal, more advantage is drawn from acquired skills rather than expensive aerodynamic solutions.

Not really true at all, top end wetsuits now a must, 600-700 to be out with lead back. Still need a high end road bike, still need high end wheels, aero helmet too but the roadie style ones too.

Fazz

DaveR1 wrote: »

I don't see why closed roads are an issue? 90 % of bike races go ahead on OPEN country roads with A3 and A4 bunches of over 100 people. Cars coming against the peleton around bends on a decent with no road markings. It all works. (Just about in some cases) but it works.

There will only be 50 - 60 in the draft legal race, spread across a number of bunches. Dublin is the only course in the country where I don't think it would work due to other waves appearing on the lapped course. From my experience with bike racing I can't see any major issue with open roads.

I don't have any experience of bike racing so only coming from a tri perspective.

Do the bike races typically have only a few bunches and so not as much disruption to traffic compared to a triathlon with 700 bikes coming through?

Are the courses key to making it work being at local loops or evening quiet times?

Fair enough on the only 50 or so draft legal wave, and likely the fastest so you'd hope able to handle bikes too though drafting a diff kettle of fish obv.

What happens in bike races when cars try to overtake a bunch? Or two? Or three?
These are the safety issues i envisage.

We've also all heard of the bike crashes and bad accidents at races in the last year or so, so important to avoid this if poss.

In triathlons obv no issue as bikes generally single file ish and we've all been passed by traffic whilst racing.

Fazz

All in all I'm in favour.

But think it should be trialled first to iron out issues instead of potentially starting a new series with a whole new racing format and no experience of the potential problems.

I guess in theory it may just be an initial wave of 50 or so that are allowed draft ahead of the rest of racers and so could run well from the off.

Either way good to see something new and may only be a couple races that want to try the draft wave format.

DaveR1

Fazz wrote: »

Do the bike races typically have only a few bunches and so not as much disruption to traffic compared to a triathlon with 700 bikes coming through?

Are the courses key to making it work being at local loops or evening quiet times?

?? Don't get this point. All triathlons already 700 bikes coming through across a two hour period causing huge amount of disruption. Can't see how having 20 bikes together passing a junction in 5 seconds is worse than 20 bikes spread out over 60 seconds.

Fazz wrote: »

Fair enough on the only 50 or so draft legal wave, and likely the fastest so you'd hope able to handle bikes too though drafting a diff kettle of fish obv.

What happens in bike races when cars try to overtake a bunch? Or two? Or three?
These are the safety issues i envisage.

They overtake the bunch same way a car overtakes a bunch out training on a Saturday morning. However, in reality due to the large size of the bunch cars can't pass because the peleton is too long. Though commisair cars do it a bit. In reality I can't see any reason why a car can't pass out a bunch of 15-20 cyclists on a straight road.

Fazz wrote: »

We've also all heard of the bike crashes and bad accidents at races in the last year or so, so important to avoid this if poss.

In triathlons obv no issue as bikes generally single file ish and we've all been passed by traffic whilst racing.

We've also heard of bad crashes in triathlon races. The way I look at it, bike racing = bike crashes. No point blaming the A4's, look at the amount of crashes the pros have to deal with.

tunney

DaveR1 wrote: »

?? Don't get this point. All triathlons already 700 bikes coming through across a two hour period causing huge amount of disruption. Can't see how having 20 bikes together passing a junction in 5 seconds is worse than 20 bikes spread out over 60 seconds.

In the UK you have a huge Time Trialling cult, because the police get less involved in non drafting.

Admirable (somewhat debatable) goals, but as Fazz says without a trial or pilot its pretty doomed.

DaveR1 wrote: »

They overtake the bunch same way a car overtakes a bunch out training on a Saturday morning. However, in reality due to the large size of the bunch cars can't pass because the peleton is too long. Though commisair cars do it a bit. In reality I can't see any reason why a car can't pass out a bunch of 15-20 cyclists on a straight road.

Really you cannot???? And that is one of the reasons I would hate to be sitting in a group with triathletes racing

DaveR1 wrote: »

We've also heard of bad crashes in triathlon races. The way I look at it, bike racing = bike crashes. No point blaming the A4's, look at the amount of crashes the pros have to deal with.

I've heard of two in tris. Both due to poor bike handling skills.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Fazz wrote: »

I don't have any experience of bike racing so only coming from a tri perspective.

Do the bike races typically have only a few bunches and so not as much disruption to traffic compared to a triathlon with 700 bikes coming through?
Generally 2 or 3 at most, possibly more in longer stages

Are the courses key to making it work being at local loops or evening quiet times?
A mix, some are looped courses and some are one lap affairs. Generally races are not held early and traffic on the road would be busy

Fair enough on the only 50 or so draft legal wave, and likely the fastest so you'd hope able to handle bikes too though drafting a diff kettle of fish obv.

What happens in bike races when cars try to overtake a bunch? Or two? Or three?
Does not seem as much of an issue, not many cars seen overtaking the bunch (apart from those in calvacade), generally its the oncoming traffic you need to keep an eye out for
These are the safety issues i envisage.

We've also all heard of the bike crashes and bad accidents at races in the last year or so, so important to avoid this if poss.
This is more down to some riders being a numpty than organisers of the race or traffic surrounding the race

In triathlons obv no issue as bikes generally single file ish and we've all been passed by traffic whilst racing.

..

DaveR1

DaveR1 wrote: »

They overtake the bunch same way a car overtakes a bunch out training on a Saturday morning. However, in reality due to the large size of the bunch cars can't pass because the peleton is too long. Though commisair cars do it a bit. In reality I can't see any reason why a car can't pass out a bunch of 15-20 cyclists on a straight road.

tunney wrote: »

Really you cannot???? And that is one of the reasons I would hate to be sitting in a group with triathletes racing

Do you try and counter argue every point made by anyone without any logic applied? A straight road, group of 20 cyclists, sounds like our groups on a saturday morning and many cars pass us out safely? Why does this sound like such a big deal?

sconhome

DaveR1 wrote: »

Do you try and counter argue every point made by anyone without any logic applied? A straight road, group of 20 cyclists, sounds like our groups on a saturday morning and many cars pass us out safely? Why does this sound like such a big deal?

To be honest there is a big difference between a group who know each other on a training spin and a group of racers who do not know how the other will react in a tricky situation.

I'd hope draft legal is definitely the exception going forward and only applied to races that are qualified and with experienced triathletes. There is far too much risk involved.

peter kern

I think you are aware that in the paper it says that it might not be posible to have draft legal races 2015. they also correctly say that it works in mexico italy etc etc . what they say it is their goal and they invite applications.

i think TI has testesd draft legal races enough over the last few years and marshals would have informed TI that their is usually no problems in those races. they have done their work ;-)

also we are talking about 5 races and middle distance will still be draft non legal .
I agree draft legal is against the spirit of tri but by not enforcing rules and Itu giving up on this in 19 88 this is where it is now . and if anybody tries to tell us that ironmans are not draft leagal after the 50 th place in the race should see the reality and that it is statiscally not possible to ride clean in fields of 2000 people if you swim around 1 hour to 1.20 .

Fazz wrote: »

All in all I'm in favour.

But think it should be trialled first to iron out issues instead of potentially starting a new series with a whole new racing format and no experience of the potential problems.

I guess in theory it may just be an initial wave of 50 or so that are allowed draft ahead of the rest of racers and so could run well from the off.

Either way good to see something new and may only be a couple races that want to try the draft wave format.

Fazz

What happens, in a draft legal race where a bunch of 2-3-4 abreast go around a bend and johnny on the inside takes it a little wider forcing the others to counter adjust out.
Poor Tommy on the outside crosses the white line as a result of being forced to correct his line.

Under current rules this is a DQ.

Guessing now that the bike marshals will be there to apply "fair policy" of trying to stay on the left side of the road where possible.

So can we cross the line if needed/forced out?
Safety implications here to be considered.

AFAIK in bike races it's not really adhered to and many cases of the bunch taking up whole roads and some idiots going around bends on wrong side of road.


Transitions:

Obviously, now there will be a group or so of riders approaching so transitions may need to be widened substantially or many accidents will occur (who's going to give way in the heat of the moment?).

Helmets - TT helmets will need to be banned for the draft legal wave.



Actual race:

What happens if a non draft legal wave athlete finishes a race quicker than the fastest draft legal athlete?
Is he/she declared the winner or is there now 2 race results - draft legal and non draft legal?

Anyway, some minor and some serious issues to be considered and/or trialled.


Drafting.... if you can't fix the problem then embrace it :pac::D