New events structure

tunney

Also going to pi$$ off alot of bike shops

"So I'm sitting on XYZ of TT bikes that I can only shift to IM athletes?"

Why would anyone buy a TT bike now if they believed any of this? (My road bike is 9 years old, could do with a new one )

peter kern

Actual race:

What happens if a non draft legal wave athlete finishes a race quicker than the fastest draft legal athlete?
Is he/she declared the winner or is there now 2 race results - draft legal and non draft legal?

as far as i read this the races are divided so if you are not in draft legal race you cant win that race likewise if you are d1 athelte you cant win age group price in nat series even if you do enough non drafting nat sereis races .
FAIR
the only issue i see in all this that some people might be forced doing Draft legal races in those races where they will be draft legal waves. so lets say jonhny came 5th in last years nat champ and they apply the x country runing rules, it means he will have to race d1 in a race if there is both a drafting and non drafting race. and if johnny dosnt want that i think johny should be allowed to do the non drafting race

everydoy has a road helmet and the miner lits are also itu legal ,no deal.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Also going to pi$$ off alot of bike shops

"So I'm sitting on XYZ of TT bikes that I can only shift to IM athletes?"

Why would anyone buy a TT bike now if they believed any of this? (My road bike is 9 years old, could do with a new one )

can people read the document .... there is a max out 6 races out of 360 races draft legal so below 2% of all races . so this is not going to affect an bike seller in fact they will profit from this as the guy on the p5 will likely also get a top notch road bike .

peter kern

if one wants to say that their should be a non draft irish oly champ race as well that might be a point very valuable to consider but the rest the impact is going to be very low .
but the farce the nat series is rigth now has been adressed. you want to win that thing you need to race against the best.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

but the farce the nat series is rigth now has been adressed. you want to win that thing you need to race against the best.

HAHAHAHAHA

No it hasn't. You have just said it has, unfortunately Peter, saying it is so doesn't make it so.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Unfortunately, as Paul and Mary might say, "I don't think much of the receipe too".

peter kern

you have to do 4 out of 6 races so you cant cheery pick you want to win you have to go to those races. how is that not an improvemt just saying no is not really helping your argument as dave pointed out earlier.

the guys that cant swim they can work in packs ( mario mola manges it too )
so if fazz charlie and mark nial come out of the water togheter they are still totally in the game

overall i would anticpate those races to look more like the team world champs in hamburg or single event in the commonwhealth games rather than a wtc sereis race
ie many little packs as supposed to big packs

griffin100

From a competitor safety point of view I would have thought that a long line of drafting cyclists going flat out for a 20kk TT is a different type of racing to an A4 peleton taking on a longer race at a more measured effort. More like a team TT than a standard race.

In draft legal races when the 'top end competitors' are on their draft legal cycle where does that leave the other 100's of competitors, do they have to wait until that race is finished before starting? Would it dangerous to have both a draft legal race and slower competitors on the same bike course (more of a problem in lapped courses I would have thought). I *think* I remember in Kilcock a few years ago when the first wave was draft legal that the next waves did not start until the draft legal cycle was over. If the duration of races gets longer this may piss off locals and other road users.

On a separate issue the proposed bid criteria for getting an NS race are high. Nothing wrong with that but could it put some clubs off from holding such events?

P2C

peter kern wrote: »

you have to do 4 out of 6 races so you cant cheery pick you want to win.

You will also get bonus points for national champs. Therefore no hiding place or picking soft races.

I think doing a six division 1 heats at races will work on certain courses. I think they should trial sprint only for 2015 as that's the requirement for 2016 ITU age groups. I suspect their will be enough males to have competitive fields but although improving each year I don't think their is enough strength in the female ranks to field 50 athletes.

Most ITU, Continental cups etc or on looped courses. Ideally you would run of the division 1 heat separately to the age group waves. Once that wave is over you would run off the age groupers.

I don't like the criteria for race selection and it completely stinks of TI supporting the bigger commercial or club races. Some of these races return the most miserable prizes and take the most amount of time out of your weekend to attend. I honestly see busy age group/ division 1 athletes question a 10 hr day based on 1 hr of racing. Some of the iconic club races and some of the commercial races have completely unsuitable courses. Effectively the criteria of minimum of 750 participants rules out the majority of races in the country


I think it will basically put the death bed into the current national series or age group level and lots of athletes will bypass and probably just participate in their local derby.

tunney

P2C wrote: »

I think it will basically put the death bed into the current national series or age group level and lots of athletes will bypass and probably just participate in their local derby.

This was exactly what I was thinking for next year. Small, no fuss races. In and out in a few hours, none of this "check your bike in at 0730 and can collect it at 1600"

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

"check your bike in at 0730 and can collect it at 1600"

That would be a pretty good Ironman

mossym

tunney wrote: »

This was exactly what I was thinking for next year. Small, no fuss races. In and out in a few hours, none of this "check your bike in at 0730 and can collect it at 1600"

amen. if i want to go race in a pack, i'll give a4 a shot. no interest in draft legal racing.

my only fear is they'll turn the marquee events into the draft legal ones. something like dublin city tri through the park would make sense, (and not one i'll ever likely do so not too worried there), but i'd really really hate to see Hotw go draft legal, even if only for certain waves.

bryangiggsy

Am all for draft legal.... Am so sick of weaker swimmers making their way up through packs in pelotons picking people off and having a way better bike than they should while i dangle in the wind waiting to be picked off....

Flip side to everything

mirrormatrix

Not a strong swimmer but I'd agree with you. Swimmers are totally disadvantaged in triathlon with the ability of somebody to just find feet and hang on drafting for dear life. Why is drafting in swimming any more honest than on the bike?

Plus, lot of people talking about TT bike being a fairer test of individual effort. This would only be true if everyone was racing with broadly similar equipment. You can potentially 'buy' minutes of speed on the bike with a TT bike, deep rim wheels etc. Not sure I'd call that fair exactly...

mossym

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Not a strong swimmer but I'd agree with you. Swimmers are totally disadvantaged in triathlon with the ability of somebody to just find feet and hang on drafting for dear life. Why is drafting in swimming any more honest than on the bike?

Plus, lot of people talking about TT bike being a fairer test of individual effort. This would only be true if everyone was racing with broadly similar equipment. You can potentially 'buy' minutes of speed on the bike with a TT bike, deep rim wheels etc. Not sure I'd call that fair exactly...

going to be a big difference between some of the draft legal bikes out there too. you can put deep rim wheels on them too....big difference in wetsuits too

why focus on the swimmers? look at the other end. the strong cyclists are now going to pull the strong runners around with them, and deliver them into t2 fresh, basically getting their ass handed to them on the run.

bryangiggsy

mossym wrote: »

going to be a big difference between some of the draft legal bikes out there too. you can put deep rim wheels on them too....big difference in wetsuits too

why focus on the swimmers? look at the other end. the strong cyclists are now going to pull the strong runners around with them, and deliver them into t2 fresh, basically getting their ass handed to them on the run.

But are we not comapring ourselves to the ITU guys. There would only be a couple of 20 min swimmers racing age group.....then the graph drops way off.....more swimmers come out at 28/29 mins in a tri than 25....and fewer less than 25........which would mean more packs to hunt with.
Draft legal suits the strong swimmer/runner
Draft illegal the strong biker
So i say split the races.....some are draft legal..some are draft illegal

tunney

Ultimately this is what it boils down to and this is why the races are all going draft legal.

You can put more people on a course when draft legal - more money for race organisers, more money for TI who can bundle the NS up as having much more participants and get more sponsorship.

You can reduce costs - no motorbike marshals required

You can reduce b1tching - "but its MEANT to be a draft fest"

There is no liability for crashes in the races so - win, win, win for everyone (bar those racing)

Oryx

Sorry, but in my opinion draft legal will be draft lethal. I include myself in that, terrible bike skills, like half of the agers that enter tri.

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

You can put more people on a course when draft legal - more money for race organisers, more money for TI who can bundle the NS up as having much more participants and get more sponsorship.

I cant say for sure obviously but I would doubt that TI think they are going to get substantially more people racing just because its draft legal. Most races do not sell out anyway - only the bigger races and NS races sell out and even then there are only one or two sell out in a day. I don't see drafting = bigger fields

I know in the race I am involved with, the limiter is actually access and parking. We could potentially have a thousand competitors given the course we use but are limited by more practical factors.

LaGlisse

Happy out,just wrapped up 1st year of Tri, wont have to buy an aero bike now, that a few grand i can put to more productive use and a whole lot of earache from OH avoided

peter kern

Oryx wrote: »

Sorry, but in my opinion draft legal will be draft lethal. I include myself in that, terrible bike skills, like half of the agers that enter tri.

the studies in italy and Mexico would suggest otherwise.
having said so i agree 100% there is no space in irland for more than 6 draft legal races and i cant see them taking over .

But i have to say it is worrying that Itu went ahead with the draft legal sprint race without consulting federatins before this paired with watching the london worlds which were extremly poor draft marshelled.
It does set the tone where they would like to go and tunnys post aobut making more money a good one.

mossym

peter kern wrote: »

i cant see them taking over .

.

perfect scenario,those that want draft legal have their races, those that don't get theirs. what will be interesting is what TI do with the Nat Champs race in each distance

peter kern

by the looks sprint and oly drafting , duathlon and half iron distnace non drafting. and again it would appear only drafting for D1 athletes.
agegroup categories ie 25-29 etc still non drafting. which i would imagin would change for sprint champs given 2016 sprint world champs draft legal ( huff and puff i know what you think ;-)

( 2015 not decided could be all non drafting or as above or anything inbetween)

Podge83

Reading the Triathlon Ireland Release in full it's confusing to say the least.

They haven't decided on much yet by the looks of things, just that things will change. That on the face of it is good i suppose but it must be done right!

However, I hope that an education programme will be put in place in line with the transition to draft legal racing and some sort of proficiency test will be put in place. Group cycling is completely different from TT cycling and is something that needs to be worked on.

In the short term though it looks like little change for next year (from a drafting point of view) other than one or two Div 1 draft legal races. If I'm reading correctly wave one will be draft legal with following AG waves draft illegal in these initial races - good luck with policing that!

From a personal point of view draft legal racing would suit me as a stronger runner but the whole sport changes dramatically. As said above get through the swim, hop on the back of a good cyclist and blitz the run fresh from a nice jaunt on the back of someone. I'll have to be a good runner too when I tell Mrs Podge that the shiny bike upstairs is now of little value!!

La Glisse above will be in the minority celebrating the demise of the TT bike. What about the many who have invested hard earned cash in a good TT bike. By the looks of things these will be of value for a few years. TI however must sort out a clear programme for change over the next few years to be fair to all. The biggest is surely an education programme/ guidelines to clubs regarding group cycling and its dangers. they also need to publish and make known to all regulations relative to draft legal bikes!

EC1000

Podge83 wrote: »

What about the many who have invested hard earned cash in a good TT bike. By the looks of things these will be of value for a few years.

I think you are over stating the issue here. I don't think we are looking at any more than a couple of draft legal races per year. The vast majority of races will be non-drafting, including all half and IM distance racing. Why would your TT bike be of little value?

Podge83

EC1000 wrote: »

I think you are over stating the issue here. I don't think we are looking at any more than a couple of draft legal races per year. The vast majority of races will be non-drafting, including all half and IM distance racing. Why would your TT bike be of little value?

To quote myself:

They will be of value for a few years

My point is that TI need to be clearer in their intentions of programme (ie timescale) and how many races will change.

EC1000

Podge83 wrote: »

To quote myself:

They will be of value for a few years

My point is that TI need to be clearer in their intentions of programme (ie timescale) and how many races will change.

I should probably read a bit more slowly

ShineyShiney

How many elite triathletes are there in Ireland?

I don't have an issue with there being some draft legal races but I would be disappointed if it became the norm.

i would be more concerned with the proposals to grade athletes beyond the top levels. The problem of head to head racing being spoiled by age based waves is a small one easily fixed with out a complete overhaul of the structures of the sport.

Clum

The idea of draft legal races is good when considering the development of potential ITU racing, but it will be very difficult to organise races that have both draft legal and illegal waves. Having both rules in one race will add to the current confusions over drafting. The scenarios are numerous with fast swimmers/cyclists from wave 2 catching the slower swimmers/cyclists from wave 1. The non-drafter could sit on drafters, or the struggling drafter can sit on the faster non-drafter...how do TOs police that?

The biggest implication I see here is entry fees going up across the board. The requirement for prize funds, TO fees, filming expenses, and accomodating TI sponsors through race slots and branding will add to the cost of the Super Series races requiring higher entry fees. This is only for the Super Series and Championships but just like with road running about 4 or 5 years ago, when some events put forward high entry fees that were justifed through high running costs many other events copied the high entry fees even though they had much smaller expenses.

Triathlon racing in Ireland is about to get a lot more expensive.

tunney

Clum wrote: »

The idea of draft legal races is good when considering the development of potential ITU racing, but it will be very difficult to organise races that have both draft legal and illegal waves. Having both rules in one race will add to the current confusions over drafting. The scenarios are numerous with fast swimmers/cyclists from wave 2 catching the slower swimmers/cyclists from wave 1. The non-drafter could sit on drafters, or the struggling drafter can sit on the faster non-drafter...how do TOs police that?

The biggest implication I see here is entry fees going up across the board. The requirement for prize funds, TO fees, filming expenses, and accomodating TI sponsors through race slots and branding will add to the cost of the Super Series races requiring higher entry fees. This is only for the Super Series and Championships but just like with road running about 4 or 5 years ago, when some events put forward high entry fees that were justifed through high running costs many other events copied the high entry fees even though they had much smaller expenses.

Triathlon racing in Ireland is about to get a lot more expensive.

And for a sport coming down from the the peak of its cycle, thats bad.

peter kern

good post
but have you looked at races like windsor where they have age group and draft legal races or are you just speculating like quite a few people in this thread ?
Also fact is that kilkee dublin tri an mhi kenmare already pay out twice as much money than suggested by Ti
so I dodnt think that justyfies your argument.
also one could say Ti is trying to offest the costs of D1 racing with races that make big profits already.

at the same time look at this hardman some 150 euro entrance fee 50 people racing Ironman races 500 euro plus 1000 euro cost of travelling approx 650 Irish people doing it so one would think the prize is not a big consideration for many people to race. ( it definitely is but it still seems that people prefer razzmatz over racing )

nenagh tri produces one of the cheapest races with some of the better sprint race prize money .

Clum wrote: »

The idea of draft legal races is good when considering the development of potential ITU racing, but it will be very difficult to organise races that have both draft legal and illegal waves. Having both rules in one race will add to the current confusions over drafting. The scenarios are numerous with fast swimmers/cyclists from wave 2 catching the slower swimmers/cyclists from wave 1. The non-drafter could sit on drafters, or the struggling drafter can sit on the faster non-drafter...how do TOs police that?

The biggest implication I see here is entry fees going up across the board. The requirement for prize funds, TO fees, filming expenses, and accomodating TI sponsors through race slots and branding will add to the cost of the Super Series races requiring higher entry fees. This is only for the Super Series and Championships but just like with road running about 4 or 5 years ago, when some events put forward high entry fees that were justifed through high running costs many other events copied the high entry fees even though they had much smaller expenses.

Triathlon racing in Ireland is about to get a lot more expensive.