New events structure

Clum

Peter, it's not all speculation, but thanks for assuming I was just making half-hearted comments.

I didn't suggest races are skimping on prize money, nor did I suggest people are racing for prize money, so I'm not sure what that side of your point was about. TI want Super Series races to have a set prize pool. This is only one cost among other requirements they've listed. Not every race in Ireland has big prize money and from what I've seen of some balance sheets many races would struggle to provide it. Other, more successful races, might be ok.

I'm familiar with Windsor Triathlon. In Windsor racing starts at 6am. Elites (the draft legal racers) don't start until 9am. It's a big event requiring a big team to run it and a long weekend for those involved. They have 2500 participants with check-in and bike racking the day before the race.

I've taken part in all the races you mentioned so I'm familiar with them also. While they may have given out large prizes I haven't heard whether they made a profit or loss. To enter Windsor next year will cost you 100 pounds sterling. That's more than any race I took part in this year in Ireland, but is that what's required to finance these types of races - big numbers and big fees?

Most races in Ireland (at least the ones I marshalled at) struggled to get volunteers for a single morning, never mind an extra day of check-in and a very early start, or alternatively a long day, to allow for two forms of racing. If there is a larger requirement for funding and volunteers to meet TI's demands many races either won't survive, won't go forward to host the Super Sprints, or will jack up the registration fees to cover costs. And just like with road running, this increase in registration costs will spread to other races who have no requirement to increase their fees.

Apart from racing long distance overseas, I've also no interest in taking part in a race that requires checking-in the day before the race, being stuck on a course with over 2000 other people and paying a large sum of money for the experience. And I doubt I'm the only one.

peter kern

quote
100 pounds sterling. That's more than any race I took part in this year in Ireland, but is that what's required to finance these types of races - big numbers and big fees?

no this is not what it needs to cost but this is what the market bears for a race people seem to like. Prize money for that race would be covered by nokia so would have no bearing on entrance costs. its a for profit company and they use obviusly supply and demand rules and I would think they have profit margins in the region of Ironman .

so this is why i brought in the other races dublin kilkee have no higher entracne cost despite bigger prize money. and thats why i say your arugment might not be right ( also i am saying not wrong )

BTW i did not single you out half hearted i asked you a question which you answwered but it is obvius that thete is a lot of comments in this thread based on specualtions with out having looked around to other nations who are already doing what ti proposes. in a way a lot is copied from the uk what Ti propsoes so its not really that they are trying to invent the wheel .

Clum

peter kern wrote: »

thete is a lot of comments in this thread based on specualtions with out having looked around to other nations who are already doing what ti proposes. in a way a lot is copied from the uk what Ti propsoes so its not really that they are trying to invent the wheel .

As I said, I think the draft racing is a good idea. But I think they should be kept seperate from non-draft racing.

Unforunately most of the elite races in Europe piggy back on large participation events (like Windsor).

As a fan of triathlon I'd go and watch the Super Series, but I'd avoid taking part in a race if it meant larger fees and fields to cover the costs.

MojoMaker

I'm fairly new to the sport I'll admit but I can't wait until draft-legal goes mass market as I am in this sport for its racing aspects. In the swim and the run you physically battle with people and you learn racing craft and the the enjoyment of testing yourself in a 'live' environment. If the bike leg stays as a pure time trial sure we could do this on a turbo in transition and have the computer file the results for us as we head off on the run.

Part of the attraction of watching and following ITU racing is to see the stars dukeing it out with each other, working intelligently within groups, and racing with each other. I can't imagine watching the Brownlees on their bikes doing nothing other than trying to stay out of each other's way.

Before anyone trots out any health & safety arguments I pause to wonder what are the real motivators behind the negative sentiments towards draft legal racing across the board, and by that I mean the real motivators because let's be honest they have not really been expressed here other than by one chap who has honestly admitted he didn't want to be robbed of the advantage his expensive TT bike gave him versus less expensive and less efficient hardware. I can't imagine anyone believes Jonathan Brownlee or Javier Gomez are considered weaker athletes when they draft elder Brownlee on the bike, but feck sake lads non-draft-legal triathlon is fierce boring to watch

I agree it has to be done right, and it may take a while to get it right, but bring it on in my opinion.

tunney

MojoMaker wrote: »

I'm fairly new to the sport I'll admit but I can't wait until draft-legal goes mass market as I am in this sport for its racing aspects. In the swim and the run you physically battle with people and you learn racing craft and the the enjoyment of testing yourself in a 'live' environment. If the bike leg stays as a pure time trial sure we could do this on a turbo in transition and have the computer file the results for us as we head off on the run.

Part of the attraction of watching and following ITU racing is to see the stars dukeing it out with each other, working intelligently within groups, and racing with each other. I can't imagine watching the Brownlees on their bikes doing nothing other than trying to stay out of each other's way.

Before anyone trots out any health & safety arguments I pause to wonder what are the real motivators behind the negative sentiments towards draft legal racing across the board, and by that I mean the real motivators because let's be honest they have not really been expressed here other than by one chap who has honestly admitted he didn't want to be robbed of the advantage his expensive TT bike gave him versus less expensive and less efficient hardware. I can't imagine anyone believes Jonathan Brownlee or Javier Gomez are considered weaker athletes when they draft elder Brownlee on the bike, but feck sake lads non-draft-legal triathlon is fierce boring to watch

I agree it has to be done right, and it may take a while to get it right, but bring it on in my opinion.

It's not about the bike. The time gains in a 40km on a super bike versus a TT bike are marginal. It's convenient for those that don't do the work to dismisses those that hammer them as "but did you see his bike????"

What are the real reasons people are against it? A non drafting race is a time trial. Some people like time trials. I do.

So what's your real reason you want drafting? Using your logic is because you're a terrible cyclist.

MojoMaker

I've stated my reasons for supporting a draft legal perspective. As a cyclist I prefer racing other people on my bike - I enjoy it, makes the whole event feel like a continuous race but I realise it may not be everyone's cup of tea granted. I also enjoy time trialling but within triathlon I prefer physically racing others and being in close proximity with other cyclists - either leading or following.

A move back to road bikes would be no bad thing in my opinion but I can also see the attraction of TT bikes and time trialling and wouldn't part with mine with longer distances in mind. For shorter events Sprint & Oly I can see the attraction of draft legal rules (note: not necessarily drafting, but draft legal events) for participants who enjoying the physical racing element of competition and the (relatively) low barrier to entry appeal of non-specialist hardware and the instant removal of the cluster-f*ck that is current drafting legislation & enforcement and the effect it has on bigger events stretching out the day incredibly.

Have some buddies who have actively chosen to enter British super series events just to get a taste of the kind of racing that draft legal events allow and their common feedback is it's much more enjoyable as an event. Not a big sample I realise of course.

I hope TI is reaching out with intelligent focus groups and consultation before making any rash decisions, and if they can execute sensibly I believe this could be really positive and a fundamental game changer for the sport in Ireland over time.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

What are the real reasons people are against it? A non drafting race is a time trial. Some people like time trials. I do.

but what makes you so agains that some races ( again approx 2-3 %) are draft legal. and as Mojo maker says gomez and the brownlees win drafting and non drafting races ......... they are the real triathles.


So what's your real reason you want drafting? Using your logic is because you're a terrible cyclist.

and reply with the same polarisation you use you dodnt like them because your swim sucks.so why dodnt you do duathlons ??? ( i am not serious but just using your way of arguing)

desertcircus

"I do better in races than time trials" is not the same as "I'm a poor cyclist". By that logic, Marianne Vos is a pretty ordinary pro cyclist.

mossym

MojoMaker wrote: »

participants who enjoying the physical racing element of competition and the (relatively) low barrier to entry appeal of non-specialist hardware and the instant removal of the cluster-f*ck that is current drafting legislation & enforcement and the effect it has on bigger events stretching out the day incredibly.
.

was thinking about this last night. one of the races being touted as going this way was dublin city tri. go read the thread about this years race, and you'll see the discussion about putting slow, in fact very slow swimmers in each wave, even the fast ones. so it got me thinking of what happens when mr or mrs "sure i signed up with the lads down teh pub, we though this try a thlon thing would be great crack to say we did one. what's a thlon by the way?" suddenly gets caught on the bike by a pack comign form the previous wave, has never cycled in a group before, gets all nervous, wobbles, and brings the whole lot down. it's different to a4 racing, nobody signs up for an a4 race and get surprised to be riding in a pack. you do get the people in tri that have no idea what is ahead of them


so, peter among others will very quickly, and correctly, point out that it's only one division in a race, so you don't have people like that in it, it will only be the top athletes it's not going to be every race, and it works in other places.

in which case, if it's only d1, then a lot of the people who want it are not going to qualify to get to do it anyway it would seem. so for those of us who don;t want it, i don;t think there is much to worry about .i think those that do have a lot more to worry about


the one other thing i thought of. if the counter argument to that is well they will make whole races draft legal and everyone gets to race. fine, so most races are multi wave. Fast wave goes off first, strong bikers, mediocre biker gets pulled around very quickly and posts a fast time. someone not far off their level goes in wave 2, but now has a much slower pack, and hasn't a hope of matching wave 1's times.

at least under the current system you're racing the same race no matter what wave you are in(getting through slower traffic accepted). you can be in wave 2,3 and beat a whole load of wave1 people. going to be a lot harder in draft legal. works well for itu, or for a single wave, but i don't see how you can expand it to multi wave fairly

DaveR1

mossym wrote: »

at least under the current system you're racing the same race no matter what wave you are in(getting through slower traffic accepted). you can be in wave 2,3 and beat a whole load of wave1 people. going to be a lot harder in draft legal. works well for itu, or for a single wave, but i don't see how you can expand it to multi wave fairly

Yes a draft legal race has to be a one wave race.... Its only Div 1 athletes who will race draft legal. That's what the document says so no problem.

Your point above is not true! The race is not the same if your in different waves. Getting a good draft in the swim in an olympic race is worth at least a minute. It is for me anyway. So in a race like Athy where waves are age group and I am at a disadvantage if there are 5 good swimmers working together in wave 3 while I have to swim by myself in wave 4. This also adds to fatigue for the bike and run.
Out on the run course, running with someone of equal ability is definitely worth 30 seconds if ye push eachother. So no currently wave system isn't fair anyway!!

tunney

desertcircus wrote: »

"I do better in races than time trials" is not the same as "I'm a poor cyclist". By that logic, Marianne Vos is a pretty ordinary pro cyclist.

Ah but Marianne Vos would not say "its not fair their bikes are better" to explain getting beaten. The lad is in for a shock when he realises in his first drafting race that it wasn't about the bike as he gets kicked out of the back of group after group.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

and reply with the same polarisation you use you dodnt like them because your swim sucks.so why dodnt you do duathlons ??? ( i am not serious but just using your way of arguing)

It wasn't my way of arguing it was his

Why not duathlons for me? As bad as a swimmer as I might be I like swimming.

mossym

DaveR1 wrote: »

Yes a draft legal race has to be a one wave race.... Its only Div 1 athletes who will race draft legal. That's what the document says so no problem.

Your point above is not true! The race is not the same if your in different waves. Getting a good draft in the swim in an olympic race is worth at least a minute. It is for me anyway. So in a race like Athy where waves are age group and I am at a disadvantage if there are 5 good swimmers working together in wave 3 while I have to swim by myself in wave 4. This also adds to fatigue for the bike and run.
Out on the run course, running with someone of equal ability is definitely worth 30 seconds if ye push eachother. So no currently wave system isn't fair anyway!!

surely splitting by age group will lump a few good swimmers together. if you go by fastest finishers, and don't get into the top wave, then you miss the fastest swimmers.age based would appear to offer you a better chance of getting a fast pair of heels than pace based if you;re not going to make wave 1.

and you're right, it's not exactly the same race, but it;s closer than draft legal, which was the point. but as it's one division only, then that's all a mute point anyway. which leaves the problem of how all the people who want to race this format are even going to get to try it

peter kern

well we have those draft packs in dublin tri ( on time trial bikes) already and nothing seems to happen .

I think the real problem is atheltes federations race organices all F...cked up in the last 30 years and now we are not anymore a non drafting race its already in between the two .

Where triathlon is right now, i think , is in the worst place, ie its not a fair race for those that race fair .
there is 2 choices the lazy way ITU took ( or had to take to become and Olympic sport and go draft legal )

or have races to be proper marshalled have a o tolerance policy this would mean TI, clubs have to find motormarshalls ( and the willl have to be paid for doing what has to be the worst job in triathlon )

but right now we are in a position that pretty much every race has a drafting fest tag .
the truth is I have no interest in getting a road bike ( in fact have no space for it and overall I agree with the people that want no drafting races if they are fair races .But right now they are not. and this is the main issue.

I dont think draft or non drafting will have an effect on my results. it will just be a very different race with a very different dynamic and choices are a good thing.and the reality is WE NEED draft legal races for juniors as you can not ignore that this is where the sport is ( many like me will say unfortunatley)

peter kern

but the swim is not a tt either ;-)

tunney wrote: »

It wasn't my way of arguing it was his

Why not duathlons for me? As bad as a swimmer as I might be I like swimming.

peter kern

yes this is very true what you say

DaveR1 wrote: »

Yes a draft legal race has to be a one wave race.... Its only Div 1 athletes who will race draft legal. That's what the document says so no problem.

Your point above is not true! The race is not the same if your in different waves. Getting a good draft in the swim in an olympic race is worth at least a minute. It is for me anyway. So in a race like Athy where waves are age group and I am at a disadvantage if there are 5 good swimmers working together in wave 3 while I have to swim by myself in wave 4. This also adds to fatigue for the bike and run.
Out on the run course, running with someone of equal ability is definitely worth 30 seconds if ye push eachother. So no currently wave system isn't fair anyway!!

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

well we have those draft packs in dublin tri ( on time trial bikes) already and nothing seems to happen .

I think the real problem is atheltes federations race organices all F...cked up in the last 30 years and now we are not anymore a non drafting race its already in between the two .

Where triathlon is right now, i think , is in the worst place, ie its not a fair race for those that race fair .
there is 2 choices the lazy way ITU took ( or had to take to become and Olympic sport and go draft legal )

ITU had to do it too to make it more tv friendly for the olympics.

BTH

A lot of people in this thread getting very worked up about something that won't affect them in the slightest. Only DaveR1, Fazz and Peter have legitimate claims to be included in the proposed division 1 draft legal waves and I have a feeling 2 of the 3 have no interest in draft legal racing. As far as I can see from the document everyone else's race will remain the exact as it was this year.

So relax guys.

tunney

BTH wrote: »

A lot of people in this thread getting very worked up about something that won't affect them in the slightest. Only DaveR1, Fazz and Peter have legitimate claims to be included in the proposed division 1 draft legal waves and I have a feeling 2 of the 3 have no interest in draft legal racing. As far as I can see from the document everyone else's race will remain the exact as it was this year.

So relax guys.

Actually no

Professional Athlete & Elite ITU/ETU competitors over previous 2
years
– Athletes finishing top 10 in National Championships
Sprint/Standard
– Athletes who have finished top 8 in National Series in previous 2
years
– Athletes with combined swim/run time of X (tbc by TI HP Team)

Two interpretations.

Top 10 in NC and top 8 in NS are age group comps and that 10 and 8 from each age group.

Top 10 and 8 are overall and then its not all of them.

If the former its a farce full of slow people.

If the latter who really gives a fvck, and it will just go one step further to making TI irrelevant to AGers.

Either way its lose lose all round.

BTH

8/10 from each age group and you'll have 200 in division 1 which clearly isn't the intention here. The main focus for these draft legal races is to give the juniors more competitive races here in Ireland. A secondary consideration is to have the top domestic athletes racing head to head on a regular basis for more exciting racing. Draft legal is the obvious place for this given problems with policing drafting.

This won't affect the average triathlete in the slightest, other than being unable to directly compare times to the winners in these SIX races ONLY. But your opinion of TI and the NS in general is well know. Why you see the need to slate them in every single post is beyond me. Why don't you just stick to races organised by that other clown or go do your own thing outside either setup.

BTH

tunney wrote: »

My problem with using the NS in this way is that the NS is meant to be an AG comp.

My problem overall with the NS/NC and TI with respect to leagues and competitions is that I think solutions are being provided without, at best, clear understanding of the problems, and possibly conflicting goals.

But the NS will remain an age group comp. This new super series is the only change and will be separate to the NS.


My understanding of the document is that the national series will continue to exist in its current format. The only change will be those 50 guys won't be eligible to compete for points or prize money in those races but can still partake. So you're taking out these strong athletes to create a more saleable product to hopefully help TI develop the sport further, most likely on the junior side of things. Does removing division 1 athletes cheapen the NS? Perhaps a little, but let's be honest, it's not going to affect anyone too much. They also seem to have removed the 4 division structure outlined in the original document which was fairly contentious.

Huff n Puff

By and large, I would be in favour of these changes. I think they have put plenty of thought into it and the suggestions all seem reasonable to me. Fair play to those involved. Although there is obviously no guarantee that this new system will work and it might take a year or two to iron out a few issues. It could be a terrible failure but then again it could be just what the sport needs on this island to bring it up a level.

I do think that the changes will help increase standards. It will help to add a little more prestige to the pointy end of the sport and upcoming triathletes will want a piece of that cake. There will be a greater sense of achievement when you do get to the top. It should make the transition from national to international a little easier.

Draft legal racing - sure why not? this is what Olympic distance racing is all about nowadays. If races can accommodate it then they should make it happen.

I like the idea of promotion and relegation with the club competition. I always find it hard to get our club members committed to the current National Series club competition, so with a new division based structure there will be some pride at steak. It will be easier to sell to our members.

Prize proposals - I would agree with this too. Reward people for doing well. Incentivise hard training. Support the top up and coming triathletes in what is an expensive sport. Forcing Super Series races to pay a minimum of €2000 is a very good move.

Negative: it will more than likely be just the commercial races that will host the Super Series. Most of these races are over priced and poor quality. Many of these races I have already sworn never to take part in again. Prices will be ramped up even more for these events. I hate giving them money but I can understand why they would be given priority. Although, with a separate wave 1, the quality of the race experience for me might improve. Also, restricting NS races to clubs and possibly increasing the number of these races will help keep the club races alive too.

The new super series keeps the top triathletes racing together and the new structure allows for Triathlon Ireland to increase the number of ordinary National Series races in the future. The field quality is kept in the place it matters = at the top end of the sport, but now we can add quantity and get more people doing the National Series by increasing the amount and spread of NS races available.

As the head of a club do I think that these changes will get people interested in doing these races? To be honest, I don't know but I hope so. The biggest battle we have in our club is the Olympic vs Ironman battle. The Ironman is splitting the club in two and tempting many of our better triathletes away from the NS and shorter distance racing. Our club members rarely talk about the NS or NC races anymore. It's all about going long. Once committed to going long, they give up on the shorter distance triathlon circuit, bar a few handy local races. We see this a lot with our top national level triathletes too. Is this new development enough to stop the increasing flow towards Ironman / Half Ironman? who knows. It can't hurt to try.

Podge83

I took the time to read the document in a bit more detail this morning when I had nothing better to do.

The interpretation I now have is of BTH's in post in 79 above.

The aims of TI would seem to be good in basically introducing a "premier League (PL)" which may be draft legal. From what i can understand no other race (or waves behind wave 1 in the PL Super Series) will be draft legal for the foreseeable future. In fact wave 1 may not even be draft legal - note the statement in the document "N.B. if these Cat 1 events do become draft legal then a requirement around draft legal cycling experience will be needed"

When they talk about the top 10 in National champs and top 8 in National Series over last 2 years they obviously don't mean in each AG.

The aim would seem to be creating a top end wave which may tempt back top Irish elites gone international (or tempt in elite international visitors) to the Super Series by increased sponsorship (and therefore better prize money) as a race within the larger race. Also, for those making the transition from top end NS to Elite it gives a real (if successful) step between the two where the opportunity to race against elites would be available without having to go abroad.

This would surely, if successful, increase the profile of racing in Ireland and increase the buzz on race days. For the greater majority of us things would not change. With more NS races, race entries would be easier to come by and hopefully the dawn "laptops to the ready" which can form the basis of your'e season by pure luck on a February morning may be reduced.

The drawback will be with those who are on the borderline between top end NS and lower end Super Series Where the better NS competitors may finish ahead of some Super Series members timewise in some races (although this should be reduced if the Super Series is draft legal.)

For most though things will remain the same except that there will be more NS races.

The one big question still un-addressed for mere AG mortals is the "easy to come by points" in the larger commercial races.

EC1000

Went to the TI open forum in the Red Cow on this topic last night. I must commend TI for both trying to improve things and giving the members an opportunity to have their say and help shape the future of racing in Ireland.

It was a little disappointing to think that so many people will come on here and give their opinions on this forum but only a small crowd of about twenty turned up to give meaningful feedback at the place where it can be taken on board (granted there are 3 other provincial meetings also).

I would certainly encourage anyone who has an opinion on these matters to come along to these meetings as it is a line of communication straight to the top which doesn't exist in many sporting organisations. Fair play to Chris Kitchen and co.....

HI2002

I am afraid, I do not agree with this proposal. I think to cater for a minority 1% (100 Cat 1's 50 male : 50 female), out of a total membership of ?10,000 ..is simply not justifiable nor viable. Of the 325 members who raced 5 NS races, taking out 100 .. will not make much of a difference to the numbers entering NS races. We are forgetting that people race for many different reasons not just for points. The Cat 1 and lets be careful here, they are Cat 1 (proposed), not true "elites" .. else if they were - they'd all be carded and Ireland would be top of the pops in triathlon. To race 6 races "super series" .. and race the same people over and over - adding to the workload and the costs of whatever clubs are willing to bid for the "super six" ... why bother just leave it the way it is as effectively this is happening already. As it is, Clubs DO already offer top athletes (in the sense of top athletes within the extremely limited confines of Ireland) free entries - to help attract other top end athletes to their races. This smacks of pandering to specific and unspecified interests. Lets stop kidding ourselves, if the premise for having a Super Series is to improve the standard .. by racing x 6 times, the exact same people they were racing this year in regular series, then this will not happen - but i dont believe its about improving the standard - call me cynical .. the only way to improve the standard of the top athletes is to race abroad and race against better athletes (of which there are hundreds) .. this will raise the level and I think perhaps money should be invested in this area - if we are serious about raising the bar. I think we are starting to lose focus, and are in deep danger of alienating Age Groupers - the top end and the bottom end. Our chief focus SHOULD be on Junior Development, improving coach development and not on pandering to a 1% minority, who will actually gain NOTHING from having their own separate SUPER races.

Fazz

HI2002 wrote: »

I am afraid, I do not agree with this proposal. I think to cater for a minority 1% (100 Cat 1's 50 male : 50 female), out of a total membership of ?10,000 ..is simply not justifiable nor viable. Of the 325 members who raced 5 NS races, taking out 100 .. will not make much of a difference to the numbers entering NS races. We are forgetting that people race for many different reasons not just for points. The Cat 1 and lets be careful here, they are Cat 1 (proposed), not true "elites" .. else if they were - they'd all be carded and Ireland would be top of the pops in triathlon. To race 6 races "super series" .. and race the same people over and over - adding to the workload and the costs of whatever clubs are willing to bid for the "super six" ... why bother just leave it the way it is as effectively this is happening already. As it is, Clubs DO already offer top athletes (in the sense of top athletes within the extremely limited confines of Ireland) free entries - to help attract other top end athletes to their races. This smacks of pandering to specific and unspecified interests. Lets stop kidding ourselves, if the premise for having a Super Series is to improve the standard .. by racing x 6 times, the exact same people they were racing this year in regular series, then this will not happen - but i dont believe its about improving the standard - call me cynical .. the only way to improve the standard of the top athletes is to race abroad and race against better athletes (of which there are hundreds) .. this will raise the level and I think perhaps money should be invested in this area - if we are serious about raising the bar. I think we are starting to lose focus, and are in deep danger of alienating Age Groupers - the top end and the bottom end. Our chief focus SHOULD be on Junior Development, improving coach development and not on pandering to a 1% minority, who will actually gain NOTHING from having their own separate SUPER races.

A few redirects:

- firstly, taking 100 out of the 325 that raced 5 races is not accurate. There are many top AGer's who don't race 5 races for the simple reason that the NS is seen as diluted, not a true or competitive reflection of overall racing and not attractive enough to focus on as there are so many races and the points system is so open and varied.

- this system is proven in other countries and where top elites can develop. Currently any Irish elite hopeful has to go to the UK Super Series for a couple races against top competition to see where they are really at.
This may continue, but at least in theory the new system will start the development of home grown competition. It may take a few years granted.

- You say you are against this and do not agree because it's catering for a minority out of the total membership.
There is very little that actually changes to the majority so what's there not to agree with?
For the majority, things will remain unchanged. There will still be many NS races (just 6 that have higher points potential and more top competitors).
The majority race for the enjoyment, fitness, banter, ease of locale and to get the best out of themselves and try progress even.
The proposed system takes nothing away from this. Hell it may even help to drive competition because there will now be races that should have the best fields and perhaps something for the juniors to aim for.

- The proposal does not take from the existing system, more it adds competition, value to the overall points system, potential for draft legal racing which is the development juniors will need (currently would have to go abroad to experience this etc).
It should stimulate more interest and competition, both from ag'ers and juniors and this can only improve the development of grass roots.

I will say that some of the criteria seems quite tough, and the field of Div 1 athletes could be quite limited going on the current format so perhaps this may be loosened.

I would actually recommend a TI Qualification day and it seems this may be in the offing.
This happens with Juniors to make the TI squad etc.

So to make the Div 1 squad the criteria is currently based on being a Pro, being top 5 in recent NS series or potentially a swim/run time trial.

So let's see a Div 1 qualification day as there could be new athletes to the game, those that have improved enough for the new season etc etc.
An early season qualification day of Swim TT and Run TT, or combination of both could yield a great day out in fairness and little qualms to those that don't make it.
It may be that TI revise the standards after this dependent on numbers qualified, but either way this would seem fair.

There will still be Div 1 athletes competing in other NS races also I'm sure so little to nothing taken away from current format, just added areas for improvement and future development.

sconhome

EC1000 wrote: »

Went to the TI open forum in the Red Cow on this topic last night. I must commend TI for both trying to improve things and giving the members an opportunity to have their say and help shape the future of racing in Ireland.

It was a little disappointing to think that so many people will come on here and give their opinions on this forum but only a small crowd of about twenty turned up to give meaningful feedback at the place where it can be taken on board (granted there are 3 other provincial meetings also).

I would certainly encourage anyone who has an opinion on these matters to come along to these meetings as it is a line of communication straight to the top which doesn't exist in many sporting organisations. Fair play to Chris Kitchen and co.....

I wonder what the turn out was like at the other meetings?

TBH I missed spotting this in the last email anyway.

One in Cork tonight

2015 Events Structure Proposal Here
The meetings will take place from 7pm - 9pm in the following locations

• 9th Sept Ulster Castle Gardens, Clotworthy House, Antrium Fourm
• 11th Sept Connacht Breaffy House Resort, Castlebar, Co. Mayo
• 15th Sept Leinster Red Cow Hotel, Naas Rd, Dublin
• 16th Sept Munster Silver Springs Moran, Cork City

Agenda

• Meet & Greet
• 2015 Events Structure
• Club Topics

Huff n Puff

HI2002 wrote: »

I am afraid, I do not agree with this proposal. I think to cater for a minority 1% (100 Cat 1's 50 male : 50 female), out of a total membership of ?10,000 ..is simply not justifiable nor viable. Of the 325 members who raced 5 NS races, taking out 100 .. will not make much of a difference to the numbers entering NS races. We are forgetting that people race for many different reasons not just for points. The Cat 1 and lets be careful here, they are Cat 1 (proposed), not true "elites" .. else if they were - they'd all be carded and Ireland would be top of the pops in triathlon. To race 6 races "super series" .. and race the same people over and over - adding to the workload and the costs of whatever clubs are willing to bid for the "super six" ... why bother just leave it the way it is as effectively this is happening already. As it is, Clubs DO already offer top athletes (in the sense of top athletes within the extremely limited confines of Ireland) free entries - to help attract other top end athletes to their races. This smacks of pandering to specific and unspecified interests. Lets stop kidding ourselves, if the premise for having a Super Series is to improve the standard .. by racing x 6 times, the exact same people they were racing this year in regular series, then this will not happen - but i dont believe its about improving the standard - call me cynical .. the only way to improve the standard of the top athletes is to race abroad and race against better athletes (of which there are hundreds) .. this will raise the level and I think perhaps money should be invested in this area - if we are serious about raising the bar. I think we are starting to lose focus, and are in deep danger of alienating Age Groupers - the top end and the bottom end. Our chief focus SHOULD be on Junior Development, improving coach development and not on pandering to a 1% minority, who will actually gain NOTHING from having their own separate SUPER races.

once again, HI2002, I find it hard to agree with your post. You seem to have a low opinion of Irish racing. Seems like you are at a decent standard yourself and have probably raced over in the UK a bit and now look down on everything that is done on this island. There aren't many people over the last few years that have gone abroad like this so it probably wouldn't be too hard to think of your real name. Care to enlighten us? It would be good to put a face to the argument.

So the only way to improve triathletes living in Ireland is to pay them to race in the UK? You don't see any benefit in copying systems that have worked well elsewhere and replicating them here? This all seems to feed into the big fish in a small pond attitude you have been demonstrating in your previous few posts i.e. racing in Ireland is rubbish and always will be.

None of us on here argue that the racing here is as good as the UK. We are all well aware that it isn't. That doesn't mean it couldn't be better here. That doesn't mean we abandon the top national level guys and upcoming juniors to be happy with their lot. We need to make the jump to the UK and the continent easier for anyone that wants to go. We also need to care for those at the top level here that have no intentions of racing abroad.

As Peter Kern has stated previously to you - "even to go abroad you have to practise at home to be prepared for the next level." Does it not make sense to maximise the potential here first? Why not make the Irish domestic racing scene as competitive as possible? Why bother having a meritocratic and highly competitive domestic cycling scene if you need to go abroad to make it?

alienating the age groupers? it seems to me like every move TI have made over the last 10 years has been to promote age group racing, often to the detriment of the top end of the race. Most races feel like leisure events now instead of the races they are supposed to be. I came 2nd overall in the National Championships Olympic Distance a few years ago and didn't even get a top 3 photo taken never mind a prize or even a mention at the prize giving ceremony. I did get an age grouper prize (which means nothing to me) and photo though! Is that right? Perhaps it's about time to include the top national guys in the conversation. You seem to see that as pandering. I see that as focusing on a part of triathlon racing in Ireland that has been neglected.

As Fazz says, nothing has really changed for age groupers. If anything things have improved because the National Series is still in place and has more races, also there is now a new level to reach above the ag group level. This gives us all something even better to aim for. It is not just the top 50 guys and girls that this is for (or the 1% minority as you say). It is also for the large number of people underneath the top level that want to earn promotion (in a meritocratic system) to the top level. It gives everyone aspiring to race well something to aim for. Set the bar higher and people will rise to that standard.

The races that will become Super Series races will more than likely be multi wave events anyway with huge entry numbers. They can accommodate top level waves without much hassle. The increased publicity for their races will more than compensate them. If there is a shortage of applications to accommodate this new venture then I would be very surprised. As the organiser of a race I would love to be able to gain Super Series status for our race.

Of course the '1% minority' gain something - they gain pride in making the top grade in the country - that should be enough as it will be a genuine achievement for most. The racing will be better quality and more prestigious = the win will feel all the better. Prize money will be focused on again. Possibility of increased notoriety in the media as it's an easier package to sell.

You are very hung up on the word elite. It's just a word. Big deal if people say elite or best national/international level triathletes. None of us think we are international level elites

The majority of triathletes in Ireland would probably agree with your opinions. Actually the majority of people couldn't care less. Who knows, you could be right. I just don't agree.

BTH

If HI2002 wants further proof of the need for change let him/her just see who wins the national series this year* and consider whether he is a worthy winner compared to the second and third place finishers.

* not 100% certain, but very very likely

Tom__JNR

BTH wrote: »

If HI2002 wants further proof of the need for change let him/her just see who wins the national series this year* and consider whether he is a worthy winner compared to the second and third place finishers.

* not 100% certain, but very very likely

What do you mean by saying worthy winner? Blame the system not the athletes....