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New events structure

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    #122
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Top 50+ in the super series should this not read top 200+ if div 1 is going to comprise of 10 per age group

    Its not 10 per age group.


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    #123
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    EC1000 wrote: »
    Its not 10 per age group.

    As i said quick glance.


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    #124
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    Heres the top 10 in sprint & olympic NC & top 8 in NS.. with overlaps only 19 qualify automatically for male

    Aaron O Brien Charles MALTHA Mark HORAN Aidan CALLAGHAN Trevor WOODS Owen CUMMINS Peter KERN Matt MOLLOY Cormac MCGARRY Ben Shaw Rory Sexton Mariusz Olejniczak Kristofer Muldoon David Morwood Kevin Egan Patrick Quinn Tomasz Gagola Alex Gray David Richardson


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    #125
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    Thinking about this a little more

    On the male side if you have 20 approx selected and another 20-40 apply based on race times you are still asking 40-60 to turn up for 6 super series races. How viable is that considering only 8 of the 20 automatics completed the full set of National Series races out of 30+ races to choose from. My other thought is if you not in to top 20 would you bother applying if not going to get any prizes.
    This I see is a bigger issue in the female field were you have a group of 6 athletes within 5-7 mins of each other then the gaps get way bigger. I dont think there is the depth in the field to make it viable on the female side and can see it collapsing as a result.


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    #126
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    No one got any thoughts on the viability of the above?


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    #127
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    No one got any thoughts on the viability of the above?

    Just curious if you have already provided your feedback to TI on this as was the whole point of this exercise?


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    #128
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    EC1000 wrote: »
    Just curious if you have already provided your feedback to TI on this as was the whole point of this exercise?

    I have yes tks for your curiosity. Are we not allowed have dialogue on here about it also? Do you see the new comp working yourself? IMO i think its going to shift more athletes including the top tier away from the National Series & Championships

    Am disappointed with the results.


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    #129
    mirrormatrix
    Registered Users Posts: 616 ✭✭✭mirrormatrix


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    I have yes tks for your curiosity. Are we not allowed have dialogue on here about it also? Do you see the new comp working yourself? IMO i think its going to shift more athletes including the top tier away from the National Series & Championships

    Am disappointed with the results.

    Shift them to what exactly?


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    #130
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    I have yes tks for your curiosity. Are we not allowed have dialogue on here about it also? Do you see the new comp working yourself? IMO i think its going to shift more athletes including the top tier away from the National Series & Championships

    Am disappointed with the results.

    I hope it works. I think a shift in mindset is needed whereby it is deemed more prestigious to finish last in cat 1 than to win the AG comp. I would hope that racers would not stay in the AG competition just to win prizes - although this concern occurred to me also. If you are a cat 1 racer, you only have 6 races that you can get a result in (I understand that you can race in the other NS events but wont be entitled to prizes/points, etc.).


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    #131
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    mirrormatrix wrote: »
    Shift them to what exactly?


    Longer distance events...70.3 & above


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    #132
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    EC1000 wrote: »
    I hope it works. I think a shift in mindset is needed whereby it is deemed more prestigious to finish last in cat 1 than to win the AG comp. I would hope that racers would not stay in the AG competition just to win prizes - although this concern occurred to me also. If you are a cat 1 racer, you only have 6 races that you can get a result in (I understand that you can race in the other NS events but wont be entitled to prizes/points, etc.).

    The more i think about it the more i think its going to flop. And i am disappointed to say that. Personally i think they shoud have just nominated 6 National Series races and get stacked fields at all 6 with the best 5 counting (allowing for 1 bad race)
    They have changed noting apart from going from 5 to 4 races for the other 95%..still same issues with scoring & race selection..disappointing


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    #133
    BTH
    Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    The more i think about it the more i think its going to flop. And i am disappointed to say that. Personally i think they shoud have just nominated 6 National Series races and get stacked fields at all 6 with the best 5 counting (allowing for 1 bad race)
    They have changed noting apart from going from 5 to 4 races for the other 95%..still same issues with scoring & race selection..disappointing

    Is this not essentially what they're doing, but still allowing the NS remain as a mass participation thing. Designating it as a separate league is purely to allow it to develop into draft legal racing?

    I don't see the problem?


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    #134
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    BTH wrote: »
    Designating it as a separate league is purely to allow it to develop into draft legal racing?

    +1 ...I would add this also ensures that the top guys are going head to head. This obviously rules out a repeat of what happened this year when the NS can be won by a racer who didn't win a single NS race.


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    #135
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Personally i think they shoud have just nominated 6 National Series races and get stacked fields at all 6 with the best 5 counting (allowing for 1 bad race)

    This is exactly what is happening for the top guys (with 4 counting instead of 5).


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    #136
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    EC1000 wrote: »
    This is exactly what is happening for the top guys (with 4 counting instead of 5).

    Right but why not the rest of us ? Why keep the format the same for the rest? Also do u think the female top tier is viable in the new format ?


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    #137
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Right but why not the rest of us ? Why keep the format the same for the rest? Also do u think the female top tier is viable in the new format ?

    Personally, I don't think Johnny mid-packer should be a priority for TI but at least there is still a mechanism for competition and placings under the new structure. Whether that's through 6 possible races (difficult to get entries for everyone I would have thought) or 25+, personally I don't think it really matters as I just want some decent quality races to be able to partake in and will pick and choose accordingly.

    As for females, probably looking at much smaller fields alright, but again, the point is that at least the top ones will be racing head to head.


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    #138
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    EC1000 wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think Johnny mid-packer should be a priority for TI but at least there is still a mechanism for competition and placings under the new structure. Whether that's through 6 possible races (difficult to get entries for everyone I would have thought) or 25+, personally I don't think it really matters as I just want some decent quality races to be able to partake in and will pick and choose accordingly.

    As for females, probably looking at much smaller fields alright, but again, the point is that at least the top ones will be racing head to head.

    See thats were i think your wrong. Out of my age group male 40-44 only 1 will qualify to race in the top tier with perhaps one more . I would have liked more oppurtunity to race the top 10 guys in my age group with the new system nothing has changed for racing 3 through 10..i might see them at all at 1 race per year..which is disappointing.


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    #139
    BTH
    Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Right but why not the rest of us ? Why keep the format the same for the rest? Also do u think the female top tier is viable in the new format ?

    What do the rest of us want? The top guys want to race directly head to head, they want race winners winning a race not a time trial from a different wave, the want to race on an equal footing, they want multiple race winners winning the series meaning if you want to win the series you can't avoid racing your direct competition for that title. TI want a domestic outlet for their top young athletes to get experience to help them when racing abroad. They want to help develop those athletes and giving them the strongest possible races here cam only help that development. They also want a saleable product for tv and do away with the drafting complaints at the front of the field. This will tick all the boxes, not all straight away but that's the obvious plan here.

    Normal age groupers like you and me will still get quality NS races with strong fields to test ourselves. Some of those top tier athletes will still race these NS races so there will still be a basis for comparison.

    I take your point on the female side but if there is a group of 20 ladies put into this new class then they only have a selection of 6 races to compete at so they're most likely to turn up to those races.


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    #140
    BTH
    Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    See thats were i think your wrong. Out of my age group male 40-44 only 1 will qualify to race in the top tier with perhaps one more . I would have liked more oppurtunity to race the top 10 guys in my age group with the new system nothing has changed for racing 3 through 10..i might see them at all at 1 race per year..which is disappointing.

    Sorry to break it to you but TI are more interested in the development of the likes of Con Doherty and Chris Mintern than the likes of you and me. Completely justifiably so IMHO.


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    #141
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    BTH wrote: »
    Sorry to break it to you but TI are more interested in the development of the likes of Con Doherty and Chris Mintern than the likes of you and me. Completely justifiably so IMHO.


    Euge IMHO they missed an oppurtunity to do both but they still can. U can still have the top tier wave. But make the National series also Super series for the rest of us to get quality fields at all. Im off to protest outside the Dail.


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    #142
    BTH
    Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Euge IMHO they missed an oppurtunity to do both but they still can. U can still have the top tier wave. But make the National series also Super series for the rest of us to get quality fields at all. Im off to protest outside the Dail.

    That's not possible. You see yourself how hard it is to get entries into NS races. You basically want to narrow the number of races down to 6. Not a runners. Are you suggesting invitation only races? That's the only way it could possibly work. Try asking a RD to send out three hundred invitations for a race. You're asking for a row. There's likely to be complaints about who is and isn't included in this top tier. Do a top tier for each AG and it will be a nightmare that I doubt anyone has the time or energy to deal with.


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    #143
    Bambaata
    Registered Users Posts: 4,101 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    Im all for the new format. The NS title was a bit of a joke as the top competitors weren't always facing off and at the end of the day to be the top NS athlete you should have to square up to the best. Im hoping i can get into the new series (not sure if i will yet as id be probably be needing a judges decision!) and if i do its going to be hugely encouraging to race against those guys. I know I wont see half of them from the gun and ill have my ass handed to me but i still expect good competition right the way down to last place in the new series and that's what id like - to be pushing the whole way through the race rather than stuck in limbo with athletes 100's of metres apart. Id prefer that than current structure even though i wont be anywhere near top 10/15. Suits me too as im looking at potentially going back to sprints and olympics next year rather than focusing on longer distance.


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    #144
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    Bambaata wrote: »
    The NS title was a bit of a joke as the top competitors weren't always facing off and at the end of the day to be the top NS athlete you should have to square up to the best.


    Agree totally the National Series is a joke and is a bigger one now.

    The only decent race for all imo is were you get stacked fields. TI have addressed it for the top end but have actually made it worse elsewhere.

    The only decent race was the National Championships were you could always guarantee a decent field. Now that is gone for Age groupers since 'Only Category 1 athletes will compete for Sprint and Standard Distance National Championships'


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    #145
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Agree totally the National Series is a joke and is a bigger one now.

    The only decent race for all imo is were you get stacked fields. TI have addressed it for the top end but have actually made it worse elsewhere.

    The only decent race was the National Championships were you could always guarantee a decent field. Now that is gone for Age groupers since 'Only Category 1 athletes will compete for Sprint and Standard Distance National Championships'

    Coming 3rd in your age group at the National Championships always carried more prestige than coming 3rd in your age group in the National Series (because of the flawed system)... now they have taken it away.


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    #146
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    Agree totally the National Series is a joke and is a bigger one now.

    HAHAHAHAHA - not laughing at you Bryan, just that a few years ago you'd have disagreed completely with me when I said that :)

    Someone says "I came 4th in my AG in the NS"
    What they actually are saying "This is my second season in triathlon"


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    #147
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    BTH wrote: »
    Sorry to break it to you but TI are more interested in the development of the likes of Con Doherty and Chris Mintern than the likes of you and me. Completely justifiably so IMHO.

    Developement of talent. Would mean so so much more if the coaching pathways had moved one inch since Jag left.
    EC1000 wrote: »
    There is a mechanism for getting into cat 1 without a NS history if you can show a swim/run time from a previous race that is of a sufficient standard. Not sure if this is such a good idea - think it should involve bike times at least.

    Its believed that if you can run fast you have the engine to riding "cause anyone can ride a bike",


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