Should a major sporting occassion like an All-Ireland hurling final go to a replay?

thelad95

Personally, I think it's great that we will get to see Kilkenny and Tipperary battle it out again but in all honesty is it really practical for a major sporting occassion to be replayed completely again? Dublin businesses are undoubtedly delighted as for the 3rd year in a row they will receive an unexpected windfall.

Replays have pretty much been abandoned in all other major sports in favour of extra time. In Australia, the 2010 AFL Grand final went to a replay. This was just the third time in 130 years that this had happened in the AFL but it led to major criticism from fans and lobbying for extra time in the future instead of a replay. The AFL (like the GAA) have decided to retain replays though.

Also, is it really fair to make amateur athletes to spend another three weeks preparing for and then playing an extra high intensity game when some already suffer from burnout?

Rightwing

thelad95 wrote: »

Personally, I think it's great that we will get to see Kilkenny and Tipperary battle it out again but in all honesty is it really practical for a major sporting occassion to be replayed completely again? Dublin businesses are undoubtedly delighted as for the 3rd year in a row they will receive an unexpected windfall.

Replays have pretty much been abandoned in all other major sports in favour of extra time. In Australia, the 2010 AFL Grand final went to a replay. This was just the third time in 130 years that this had happened in the AFL but it led to major criticism from fans and lobbying for extra time in the future instead of a replay. The AFL (like the GAA) have decided to retain replays though.

Also, is it really fair to make amateur athletes to spend another three weeks preparing for and then playing an extra high intensity game when some already suffer from burnout?

I think it's about time they get paid. Some of the successful ones like Brennan/O Se/Whelan etc get rewarded after they retire, but what about the vast majority of them.

hof1982

I would certainly be in favour of a winner on the day, it would add to the drama. Although it was a classic and most draws are, there is a feeling of somewhat of an anti climax when it does happen. Can't see the GAA changing it anytime soon though, read somewhere yesterday that they stand to make a windfall of c.3m from the replay even with reduced ticket prices.

NewApproach

Replay is more satisfactory from the sporting point of view. More playing time = less variance = less likely that 'luck' plays a factor in who wins.

kksaints

If the match is in a neutral venue there should be extra time first and then a replay. If it is a home match for one team then a replay in the other teams home venue could be the first option.

MayoSalmon

NewApproach wrote: »

Replay is more satisfactory from the sporting point of view. More playing time = less variance = less likely that 'luck' plays a factor in who wins.

Luck You can't be serious?!

homerjay2005

dont teams get extra cash off croke park, if they go to a reply?

i could be wrong here, but i think Kerry and galway got 25k each towards a holiday back in 2000 but i maybe incorrect.

Clareman

Amatuer sport with a long winter and no real dictation from TV companies, I'd nearly have every game go to a replay, not just the finals, but that's not feasible with so many games.

O.A.P

Yes its the only fair option.


Penalties cant work in GAA because of points and its an unfair way to decide a game (soccer or any other sport) anyway.


Extra time should only be used after a replay has failed to make a winner IMO .

Its hard to run yourself into the ground for 70 minuets. lungs burning, heart racing the occasion, support and a bit of red mist keeping you going, and I 0nly played to club level.


Pay for players will happen I think maybe with a county player rate when he plays and trains for his county (rates the same for Dublin or Carlow players )
The same down the line to clubs senior. junior, under 21 and minor.
A multiple of the gate fee for each player in each class ,


Now I think that should solve everything
Goodnight.

mickmackey1

hof1982 wrote: »

read somewhere yesterday that they stand to make a windfall of c.3m from the replay even with reduced ticket prices.

No, 'they' don't make a windfall, it's 'we' who make a windfall... more facilities for our clubs, more coaching for our players, more resources for our games. It's not going into Liam O'Neill's pocket ffs.

MayoSalmon

mickmackey1 wrote: »

No, 'they' don't make a windfall, it's 'we' who make a windfall... more facilities for our clubs, more coaching for our players, more resources for our games. It's not going into Liam O'Neill's pocket ffs.

Ah yes that "we" I guess includes the €5 Million redevelopment of Ruislip in London.

Into The Blue

The fans lobbied in Oz due to the enormous distance to travel for the replay.
Donegal or kerry would have the worst of it here, even then it's only approx 4hrs ew..

999/112

Despite the current fitness levels that prevail in both hurling & football, is it fair to ask the players to play for an extra 20 minuets, on top of the 70 already played last Sunday, at such an intense pace?

I am really looking forward to the replay.

Realt Dearg Sec

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Ah yes that "we" I guess includes the €5 Million redevelopment of Ruislip in London.

Yes, obviously it does. Not sure what your problem is with that, or what you think it has to do with replays...

hof1982

mickmackey1 wrote: »

No, 'they' don't make a windfall, it's 'we' who make a windfall... more facilities for our clubs, more coaching for our players, more resources for our games. It's not going into Liam O'Neill's pocket ffs.

Interesting how you make an assumption based on the word "they" in reference to the GAA, btw, "they" includes me as a member playing for my local club and indeed training underage teams also. No need to get so defensive because of a statement of fact that the GAA (including me as a member) stand to do very well financially out of the replay and I stand by my point that for this reason the GAA will not consider a move to having a winner "on the day".

homerjay2005

999/112 wrote: »

Despite the current fitness levels that prevail in both hurling & football, is it fair to ask the players to play for an extra 20 minuets, on top of the 70 already played last Sunday, at such an intense pace?

I am really looking forward to the replay.

ask the Kerry and Mayo lads from 2 weeks ago and that was 90+ minutes, 6 days after an almighty battle.

ceegee

Into The Blue wrote: »

The fans lobbied in Oz due to the enormous distance to travel for the replay.
Donegal or kerry would have the worst of it here, even then it's only approx 4hrs ew..

Both clubs in the 2010 afl final were Melbourne teams so distance wasnt a factor.

iDave

Why should we amend our rules just because other sports have. Yes the GAA should learn where possible from other sports but for this I can see no reason to change. It certainly should not be changed to suit 'Grab All' conspiracy whingers.

freddiek

how many times have we heard the auld chestnut "its unfortunate there had to be a loser" etc.

I'm a bit tired of all this replays now. Never the same the second time.

The biggest sporting events in the world such as the Superbowl and the World Cup final don't bother with them so why should the GAA??

oh, because we're "amateurs" maybe?? No, not good enough.

Although in a way its a tribute to the elite hurling counties in that their best 15s are so evenly matched.

munchkin_utd

iDave wrote: »

Why should we amend our rules just because other sports have. Yes the GAA should learn where possible from other sports but for this I can see no reason to change. It certainly should not be changed to suit 'Grab All' conspiracy whingers.

I dont see any need for the senior finals to be decided on the day, but at least up to (but not including) the semi finals there should be extra time played as there is in Qualifier games already, to have less chance of replays and to make the path to the final and the disruption to club games somewhat more manageable.

Hammer Archer

freddiek wrote: »

I'm a bit tired of all this replays now. Never the same the second time.

I take it that you missed last year's hurling final replay then.

freddiek

Hammer Archer wrote: »

I take it that you missed last year's hurling final replay then.

not saying the game can't be as good the second time.

just the build-up and anticipation is not the same. maybe if there was an Up for the Match replay special i'd feel differently!

twinytwo

iDave wrote: »

Why should we amend our rules just because other sports have. Yes the GAA should learn where possible from other sports but for this I can see no reason to change. It certainly should not be changed to suit 'Grab All' conspiracy whingers.

eh... its called moving with the times???

Your asking players, who already play enough between club and intercounty to play another completely unneeded game.

Extra time and penos should be played (where going over the bar counts as a wide/miss). It really is that simple.

Valetta

twinytwo wrote: »

eh... its called moving with the times???

Your asking players, who already play enough between club and intercounty to play another completely unneeded game.

Extra time and penos should be played (where going over the bar counts as a wide/miss). It really is that simple.

That's a bit condescending and patronising.

I haven't heard of one player complaining about haveing to play in an All-Ireland final replay.

iDave

twinytwo wrote: »

eh... its called moving with the times???

Your asking players, who already play enough between club and intercounty to play another completely unneeded game.

Extra time and penos should be played (where going over the bar counts as a wide/miss). It really is that simple.

So just copy what soccer do. GAA penalty shoot outs would be a disaster, even Rugby people were embarrassed by their version of shoot outs after the Leicester/Cardiff draw.

hof1982

iDave wrote: »

So just copy what soccer do. GAA penalty shoot outs would be a disaster, even Rugby people were embarrassed by their version of shoot outs after the Leicester/Cardiff draw.

I don't think pennos would work especially for hurling. I wouldn't mind seeing next score being the winner after the allotted extra time period has passed i.e. a hooter would sound indicating end of time and from there the first team to score would win. It would make for a frantic last couple of plays if the sides were still level at the end of ET.

Hibbeler

At the very least extra time should be played on All Ireland final day to give the best chance of a winner on the day. After that then go to as many replays as is necessary

thelad95

The worst thing about this is there is a fairly decent chance that Kerry v Donegal could go to a replay as well. I think we'd begin to look a bit stupid to the UK audience then.

megadodge

hof1982 wrote: »

I don't think pennos would work especially for hurling. I wouldn't mind seeing next score being the winner after the allotted extra time period has passed i.e. a hooter would sound indicating end of time and from there the first team to score would win. It would make for a frantic last couple of plays if the sides were still level at the end of ET.

Sure why not save us the time by flicking a coin instead?

It's virtually the same thing and an absolutely ridiculous way to decide a Gaelic football/hurling match. This is not soccer where scores are so rare and teams regularly play to 'not lose' rather than 'to win'.

megadodge

twinytwo wrote: »

eh... its called moving with the times???

Your asking players, who already play enough between club and intercounty to play another completely unneeded game.

Extra time and penos should be played (where going over the bar counts as a wide/miss). It really is that simple.

Eh.... it's called having an inferiority complex.

"Everybody else is doing it, so we better too".

I think we'd begin to look a bit stupid to the UK audience then.

See above.

Hidalgo

thelad95 wrote: »

The worst thing about this is there is a fairly decent chance that Kerry v Donegal could go to a replay as well. I think we'd begin to look a bit stupid to the UK audience then.

How we look in the eyes of the UK audience is really what matters alright.

hof1982

megadodge wrote: »

Sure why not save us the time by flicking a coin instead?

It's virtually the same thing and an absolutely ridiculous way to decide a Gaelic football/hurling match. This is not soccer where scores are so rare and teams regularly play to 'not lose' rather than 'to win'.

How does flicking a coin equate to it? It is the exact same premise as how the games are decided as is - how is it any different from one team scoring with the last puck of the game within ET and the ref then blowing time? So by your logic there should even be no extra time just replay after replay!

Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good replay as much as the next person but IMO having a winner on the day would add to the spectacle and drama in cases such as last Sunday.

BonnieSituation

twinytwo wrote: »

eh... its called moving with the times???

Your asking players, who already play enough between club and intercounty to play another completely unneeded game.

Extra time and penos should be played (where going over the bar counts as a wide/miss). It really is that simple.

It is that simple. Problem solved. Nothing to see here folks.

To call the final game of the inter-county season unneeded is frankly bizarre. Sure we have had three in a row, but this is an anomaly in comparison to what has gone on in history. Whilst I would prefer games to be settled on the day the fact is that both teams deserved the draw as they were equal to each other on the day.

Importing ET for a final etc. is just inappropriate in my view.

thelad95 wrote: »

The worst thing about this is there is a fairly decent chance that Kerry v Donegal could go to a replay as well. I think we'd begin to look a bit stupid to the UK audience then.

It is important for us to look good for the English. Can't have the unruly Irish appearing to be mucksavages incapable of running their own sports.

You know what, we should have the GAA disbanded and have the superior English run it.

Hidalgo wrote: »

How we look in the eyes of the UK audience is really what matters alright.

It's the most important thing.

hof1982 wrote: »

How does flicking a coin equate to it? It is the exact same premise as how the games are decided as is

Given that it is possible to score in hurling from about 100m and in football from about 70m it would be practically a flip of a coin after the throw-in of ET.

Next score winning is a wholly unsatisfactory way of winning a game in Gaelic Games.

The golden goal has been abandoned in soccer. In gridiron football the ability to win from the next score seems to have no dissenting voices but from my European eyes I hate it. possibly because I view draws as a part of sports unlike North America.

- how is it any different from one team scoring with the last puck of the game within ET and the ref then blowing time? So by your logic there should even be no extra time just replay after replay!

That's stretching his logic just a bit don't you think?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good replay as much as the next person but IMO having a winner on the day would add to the spectacle and drama in cases such as last Sunday.

I don't think you do enjoy a replay. You wouldn't be arguing against them if you did.

The Lost Sheep

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It is that simple. Problem solved. Nothing to see here folks.

To call the final game of the inter-county season unneeded is frankly bizarre. Sure we have had three in a row, but this is an anomaly in comparison to what has gone on in history. Whilst I would prefer games to be settled on the day the fact is that both teams deserved the draw as they were equal to each other on the day.

Importing ET for a final etc. is just inappropriate in my view.

You read that wrong. Of course the final game of the inter county hurling season isn't unneeded but a replay is not needed and it would be better for the clubs, players, supporters if they played out the final on the one day. The two sides were equal to each other on the day but that still doesn't mean they should have to replay the game to decide a winner especially when it causes issues with club games etc

BonnieSituation

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You read that wrong. Of course the final game of the inter county hurling season isn't unneeded but a replay is not needed and it would be better for the clubs, players, supporters if they played out the final on the one day. The two sides were equal to each other on the day but that still doesn't mean they should have to replay the game to decide a winner especially when it causes issues with club games etc

I didn't read it wrong.

I completely disagree with your sentiment.

It affects the club championships of 2 counties. Two counties that more often than not are at the business end of the year and probably have contingency for this built up.
If a replay 3 weeks after the original game wreaks havoc on the calendar then the County Board are culpable.

Both teams have known since mid-August that they would be in the final. There is enough redundancy in the system to ensure there's no messing of club championships at this part of the year. If each individual county can't work that out then that's not the issue of the GAA or KK and Tipp for drawing.

megadodge

hof1982 wrote: »

How does flicking a coin equate to it? It is the exact same premise as how the games are decided as is - how is it any different from one team scoring with the last puck of the game within ET and the ref then blowing time? So by your logic there should even be no extra time just replay after replay!

Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good replay as much as the next person but IMO having a winner on the day would add to the spectacle and drama in cases such as last Sunday.

So you're asking how is scoring with the first (or near to first) puck of a ball in your version of a decider (first score wins) any different to scoring with the last puck after an entire seventy minutes have been played?

In your version, if for whatever reason, just as/after the ball is thrown in, player A gets the ball and knocks it over the bar from 70/80 yards out, that's it. Game over. All decided on who happened to get the ball first in a few frantic seconds. No time to make amends.

It could happen either team equally, hence the coinflip analogy.

In the replay scenario (or extra time initially) these slips and other variants balance out and the best team wins. And that's what having matches is actually about, finding out who the best team is. It's not about your entertainment.

And yes, if the match ends level and the replay ends level after extra-time, I do think there should be another replay. You're obviously too young to remember the fantastic four game saga between Dublin and Meath in 1991. People still talk about it and as long as the GAA exists they will continue to talk about it. At the time the entire country was gripped even more by each successive game. It was magnificent, but it would never have happened if you were in charge.

ceegee

How about if after extra time its stilp level they played golden goal extra time for 2 periods of 5 minutes. Whoever scores the most points at the end wins unless a goal is scored in which the game ends straight away. Would mean guaranteed excitement as even if a team trails by 4 points in the dying seconds they could still win with a goal. Also get 2 possible approaches of taking easy points and holding out til the end or going all out for goals to finish it off.



(I have given this about 30 seconds thought so it most likely is a stupid idea)

BonnieSituation

Or how about we just have replays.

Tell me how

I enjoy replays, think they make for more intense review analysis of 1st game and build up to replay is more analytical as opposed to the "glad to be there", "enjoy the day" kind of thing there can be with the lead in to the original game.

thelad95

ceegee wrote: »

How about if after extra time its stilp level they played golden goal extra time for 2 periods of 5 minutes. Whoever scores the most points at the end wins unless a goal is scored in which the game ends straight away. Would mean guaranteed excitement as even if a team trails by 4 points in the dying seconds they could still win with a goal. Also get 2 possible approaches of taking easy points and holding out til the end or going all out for goals to finish it off.



(I have given this about 30 seconds thought so it most likely is a stupid idea)

This would be a good compromise I think and would make for really exciting viewing. I'd like to see something like this tested out in the League or the pre-season tournaments in January.

Dirty Dingus McGee

I think big matches should go to a replay.The All Ireland final should go to the most skilful team not the fittest and often games going to extra time are decided by fitness.

The Mayo Kerry replay is a prime example of this.Mayo were clearly bolloxed after after the first 5 minutes of extra time and couldn't keep going and it cost them.I wouldn't want an all ireland final being decided in a large part by fitness.It was fair enough for a replay to go the extra time but I think for big matches in the all Ireland series the games should go to a replay first.

TCDStudent1

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I think big matches should go to a replay.The All Ireland final should go to the most skilful team not the fittest and often games going to extra time are decided by fitness.

The Mayo Kerry replay is a prime example of this.Mayo were clearly bolloxed after after the first 5 minutes of extra time and couldn't keep going and it cost them.I wouldn't want an all ireland final being decided in a large part by fitness.It was fair enough for a replay to go the extra time but I think for big matches in the all Ireland series the games should go to a replay first.

Not sure you can say Kerry were fitter than Mayo. They played a different type of game where Mayo do a lot more ball carrying while Kerry could use Donaghy a lot to cut out a lot of ball carrying. I'd love to see stats on how far each team ran in that match actually. I suspect Mayo did a lot more running due to their tactics than Kerry did.

I like replays. If the first match ends in a draw, then I think both teams deserve another proper go at each other. In GAA, extra time is made up of 2 10 minute periods. If one team gets a goal at any stage in that period, it does not give much time for the other team to get back into it which seems a bit unfair to me. Certainly more unfair than a replay.

hof1982

megadodge wrote: »

So you're asking how is scoring with the first (or near to first) puck of a ball in your version of a decider (first score wins) any different to scoring with the last puck after an entire seventy minutes have been played?

In your version, if for whatever reason, just as/after the ball is thrown in, player A gets the ball and knocks it over the bar from 70/80 yards out, that's it. Game over. All decided on who happened to get the ball first in a few frantic seconds. No time to make amends.

It could happen either team equally, hence the coinflip analogy.

In the replay scenario (or extra time initially) these slips and other variants balance out and the best team wins. And that's what having matches is actually about, finding out who the best team is. It's not about your entertainment.

And yes, if the match ends level and the replay ends level after extra-time, I do think there should be another replay. You're obviously too young to remember the fantastic four game saga between Dublin and Meath in 1991. People still talk about it and as long as the GAA exists they will continue to talk about it. At the time the entire country was gripped even more by each successive game. It was magnificent, but it would never have happened if you were in charge.

Your COMPLETELY misinterpreting what I'm suggesting. I am NOT suggesting that this be the approach. What I am suggesting is the following (for example based on last Sundays scenario);
Game is a draw at the end of 70.
We go to extra time as in a replay scenario.
If in the extremely unlikely scenario the teams are still level after ET the game does NOT stop. The hooter would sound to indicate the end of ET but the referee does NOT blow, play simply goes on until the first team scores. And before you jump all over the post again a score would come quickly as has been pointed out by you/others in the thread so winner would be determined pretty quickly. IMO this would make for a very entertaining finale if teams are that close.

The scenario you thought I was suggesting is completely ridiculous and completely unworkable, so I actually agree with you on that front but it wasn't what I was suggesting.

hof1982

megadodge wrote: »

You're obviously too young to remember the fantastic four game saga between Dublin and Meath in 1991. People still talk about it and as long as the GAA exists they will continue to talk about it. At the time the entire country was gripped even more by each successive game. It was magnificent, but it would never have happened if you were in charge.

And BTW I am old enough to remember those games - in my 30's.

As I have outlined in previous posts, I enjoy a replay, I would just enjoy a winner on the day more if along the lines of the approach in my previous post.

megadodge

hof1982 wrote: »

Your COMPLETELY misinterpreting what I'm suggesting. I am NOT suggesting that this be the approach. What I am suggesting is the following (for example based on last Sundays scenario);
Game is a draw at the end of 70.
We go to extra time as in a replay scenario.
If in the extremely unlikely scenario the teams are still level after ET the game does NOT stop. The hooter would sound to indicate the end of ET but the referee does NOT blow, play simply goes on until the first team scores. And before you jump all over the post again a score would come quickly as has been pointed out by you/others in the thread so winner would be determined pretty quickly. IMO this would make for a very entertaining finale if teams are that close.

The scenario you thought I was suggesting is completely ridiculous and completely unworkable, so I actually agree with you on that front but it wasn't what I was suggesting.

Well now that you've clarified it, I repeat "why not flick a coin" because that's still in effect what you're doing.

Even with two extremely evenly matched sides, one side goes ahead at some stage (no 0-0 unlike Boreball), so whoever happens to be lucky enough to go ahead after the hooter wins. You're reducing it to chance. I think that's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with a draw. Nothing. It's one of three legitimate outcomes.

Realt Dearg Sec

megadodge wrote: »

Well now that you've clarified it, I repeat "why not flick a coin" because that's still in effect what you're doing.

Even with two extremely evenly matched sides, one side goes ahead at some stage (no 0-0 unlike Boreball), so whoever happens to be lucky enough to go ahead after the hooter wins. You're reducing it to chance. I think that's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with a draw. Nothing. It's one of three legitimate outcomes.

By that logic, two evenly matched teams where one happens to score right before the hooter, whoever happens to score just at the right moment wins.

Personally I'm in favour of a replay, I'm just pointing out that with evenly matched teams, by definition any way of separating them is a mate of chance.

hof1982

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

By that logic, two evenly matched teams where one happens to score right before the hooter, whoever happens to score just at the right moment wins.

Personally I'm in favour of a replay, I'm just pointing out that with evenly matched teams, by definition any way of separating them is a mate of chance.

Luck will always play a part all the way through games and what I have outlined can be equated to one team scoring the winning point at the very end of any game where two teams are level and evenly matched. If every game ended up with a "fair" result we would have nothing to talk about in terms of games. Luck, chance, undeserved winners and losers are all part of what makes sport so interesting.

megadodge

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

By that logic, two evenly matched teams where one happens to score right before the hooter, whoever happens to score just at the right moment wins.

Personally I'm in favour of a replay, I'm just pointing out that with evenly matched teams, by definition any way of separating them is a mate of chance.

Yes, but the match is for 70 minutes. If one team happen to be ahead by a point after 70 minutes, so be it. The opposition had 70 minutes to get into the same position. This other suggestion means they have a matter of seconds, or at most minutes. You might as well flick a coin.

megadodge

hof1982 wrote: »

Luck will always play a part all the way through games and what I have outlined can be equated to one team scoring the winning point at the very end of any game where two teams are level and evenly matched. If every game ended up with a "fair" result we would have nothing to talk about in terms of games. Luck, chance, undeserved winners and losers are all part of what makes sport so interesting.

"Success is all a matter of luck - ask any failure". One of my favourite sayings.

There's an awful lot less luck in sport than those who don't succeed would have you believe. There certainly is a small amount, but in general, over 70 minutes that tends to balance itself out and the better team wins.