Survey issue - windows not meeting building regulations

Woshy

We have gone sale agreed on a property and had the survey done yesterday.

Everything was pretty much ok, with a few things needing repair sooner rather than later but nothing huge and nothing structural. The one big issue was the windows in the three bedrooms. All of the windows are too high from the floor and don't meet building/fire safety regulations as you they are too high to get out of in the event of a fire.

All the houses on the street are of the same design and all would have these windows - they were built about 40 years ago. According to our surveyor it affects us mainly when we come to resell (whenever that may be) as technically they can be deemed not bedrooms so a 3 bed property could become a 0 bed property. However, the problem can be fixed for a bit of hassle and money (but not as much as I thought it would take)

Has anyone come across this problem before? I'm waiting for a call back from my solicitor to see what he says. I'm not sure exactly how serious it is or how much it really affects us.

Bigcheeze

No house built 40 years ago meets current building regulations.

If you're happy with the height of the windows then go ahead.

Woshy

Thanks - it appears that it's not problem at all (and the height of the windows doesn't bother us). Bit of a storm in a teacup - I think the surveyor was being very thorough and it came across worse than it was.

Our Solicitor wasn't concerned anyway.

Phew!

D3PO

a house 40 years old only has to meet building regs from 40 years ago and not current regs.

As you have said storm in a teacup and a bit moronic for the surveyor to point it out on the face of things.

markpb

Technically it shouldn't make any difference, now or when you're trying to sell but he's not entirely wrong to point out that the existing windows were not designed with fire safety in mind and might cause you problems if the worst should ever happen (an attack by Godzilla).

Woshy

Yep, he was extremely thorough and I think he just wanted to make sure we knew about the risks but it was communicated a bit oddly to us so created a bit of a hoo-haa.

Just waiting for the fecking bank to issue our letter of offer and then we can sign the contracts now. They don't seem in any rush to get it to us!

caz4

Hi, we have the same issue as the original poster, except the house was built in 1995, so 3 years after building regulations came into place. I am waiting for the actual report to be issued so that I can send it to our solicitor to get his take on it.

Has anyone come across this before? Re sale is also my main concern. The estate agent has sold houses in the estate before and apparently this has never been a problem ( he would say that!).
The house is dormer style so dropping the windows won't be an option.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Is it walk away time?

Woshy

caz4 wrote: »

Hi, we have the same issue as the original poster, except the house was built in 1995, so 3 years after building regulations came into place. I am waiting for the actual report to be issued so that I can send it to our solicitor to get his take on it.

Has anyone come across this before? Re sale is also my main concern. The estate agent has sold houses in the estate before and apparently this has never been a problem ( he would say that!).
The house is dormer style so dropping the windows won't be an option.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Is it walk away time?

Have you talked to your solicitor? Is there anything in the title documents about them? When I discussed it with my solicitor he had some certificate of compliance or something like that to do with the windows that was issued in the mid nineties (I'm not sure exactly what it was - as ours was built 40 years ago it wasn't an issue so I didn't dwell on it and i haven't seen the contracts yet)

The house we're buying is dormer style too but there is an option to drop the windows if needs be. Is there definitely no way you can do it? Would it be worth getting a second opinion and a quote and maybe negotiating on the price with the vendors if it can be done? We got a very rough quote to get the windows in ours dropped in case it was going to be an issue and it wasn't as much as I thought. Before we found out all was ok we did discuss renegotiating with the vendors but we're getting the house for a very good price (less than the asking) so we didn't want to rock the boat. Our surveyor has recommended that if we ever get any work done on the windows in the future that we should get them altered so they meet fire regulations at the same time, just to be sure and for our safety.

Our situation was also similar in that every other house on the street had the same windows, we were thinking it would only be an issue for re-sale if there was a surplus of houses in the area when we came to re-sell but given our timeframes we didn't think that was too likely.

For what it's worth it seems really common - anytime I have said to anyone who has bought a house that something in the survey didn't meet building/fire regulations they always ask was it the windows? The part of the window that opens out or up needs to be a certain size too and a lot of houses don't meet this criteria as well as the height off the ground.

Woshy

caz4 wrote: »

Hi, we have the same issue as the original poster, except the house was built in 1995, so 3 years after building regulations came into place. I am waiting for the actual report to be issued so that I can send it to our solicitor to get his take on it.

Has anyone come across this before? Re sale is also my main concern. The estate agent has sold houses in the estate before and apparently this has never been a problem ( he would say that!).
The house is dormer style so dropping the windows won't be an option.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Is it walk away time?

Have you talked to your solicitor just to give him/her a heads up before the actual survey arrives? Is there anything in the title documents about them? When I discussed it with my solicitor he had some certificate of compliance or something like that to do with the windows that was issued in the mid nineties (I'm not sure exactly what it was - as ours was built 40 years ago it wasn't an issue so I didn't dwell on it and I haven't seen the contracts yet)

The house we're buying is dormer style too but there is an option to drop the windows if needs be. Is there definitely no way you can do it? Would it be worth getting a second opinion and a quote and maybe negotiating on the price with the vendors if it can be done? We got a very rough quote to get the windows in ours dropped in case it was going to be an issue and it wasn't as much as I thought. Before we found out all was ok we did discuss renegotiating with the vendors but we're getting the house for a very good price (less than the asking) so we didn't want to rock the boat. Our surveyor has recommended that if we ever get any work done on the windows in the future that we should get them altered so they meet fire regulations at the same time, just to be sure and for our safety.

Our situation was also similar in that every other house on the street had the same windows, we were thinking it would only be an issue for re-sale if there was a surplus of houses in the area when we came to re-sell but given our timeframes we didn't think that was too likely.

For what it's worth it seems really common - anytime I have said to anyone who has bought a house that something in the survey didn't meet building/fire regulations they always ask was it the windows? The part of the window that opens out or up needs to be a certain size too and a lot of houses don't meet this criteria as well as the height off the ground.

caz4

Thanks for the quick response Woshy.

I have made the solicitor aware of it, we are still waiting on the deeds/paperwork to come through so hopefully there will be some certs of compliance there or else that planning for the house was pre 1992. If this was the case then, the house wouldn't have been in breach of building regulations when it was built.

Unfortunately this seems to be the big difference between ours and yours. Ours potentially is breaching regulation which was in place when it was built. I suppose only the solicitor can advise how big an issue this is.

It was the surveyor that said that dropping the windows would be too costly an option to consider. Ball park what kind of quote did you get for this if you don't mind me asking?

Woshy

Fingers crossed that there'll be something in the deeds about the planning having been given pre 1992 or something like that.

We we're told about €2,500 plus planning costs (you have to get planning permission to alter the front of your property). It was a very rough estimate though!

Victor

D3PO wrote: »

As you have said storm in a teacup and a bit moronic for the surveyor to point it out on the face of things.

Well, until there is a fire in the stair well and people suddenly realise it is difficult to escape via the windows.

One option would be to raise the floor internally, but that may have other Building Regulations effects, especially if there is a low / sloped ceiling and may make the room(s) difficult to use.

MrDerp

Had the same in our recent survey, for a dormer bungalow, in a room with just two velux windows.

If it bothers you from a safety perspective, he said one option is to build step/box structure underneath the windows, to lower the effective height without making an external modification. We thought about a built-in presses set up along the roof wall, with gaps under the windows, raised and perhaps created as a seat under the velux. This would aim to solve both the height problem, and the problem of the wall (to kick off, climbing out) being a foot behind the bottom of the velux. I'd much rather spend my 1.5K building in some storage and working around the problem internally than spending it on an external modification, which would require planning and add very little to the property other than making it pass regulations invented after it was built.

From a regs perpsective, it's the surveyors job to point out the deficiencies of the house from a modern standpoint, and most of what you will see in your survey is from the perspective of comparing to a new build. It didn't put us off buying our house, and it wouldn't put someone else off either.

For now our non-reg room is a dressing room, but anyway has furniture that could be pulled up to a window to get out. It's hard to believe that a bed, chair or locker couldn't be pulled over in an emergency. But we'll probably address it for peace of mind if the time comes that it needs to be a bedroom.

caz4

Hi Mr Derp,

Thanks for the response.

Yes from a fire safety point of view, we would build in a window seat, not a big deal.

Our real problem is that the surveyor is telling us that the house didnt meet regs which were in place when the house was built in 1995.

Has anyone any experience of this?

MouseTail

Do you not have a certificate of compliance for the house? How was it signed off if it didn't meet building regs or planning at the time?

Victor

MrDerp wrote: »

We thought about a built-in presses set up along the roof wall, with gaps under the windows

Be careful that you don't reduce the bedroom size too much - this could have planning implication on bedroom size.

MrDerp wrote: »

s under the windows, raised and perhaps created as a seat under the velux.

Be careful that you don't make it too easy for people, especially children, visitors and especially drunk visitors to climb out when there isn't a fire.

For now our non-reg room is a dressing room, but anyway has furniture that could be pulled up to a window to get out. It's hard to believe that a bed, chair or locker couldn't be pulled over in an emergency.

But what of a child, older or frail person, someone with a broken arm, etc. Sure, you'll try anything in an emergency, but you should have to make-do in an emergency.

MrDerp

Victor wrote: »

Be careful that you don't reduce the bedroom size too much - this could have planning implication on bedroom size.
Be careful that you don't make it too easy for people, especially children, visitors and especially drunk visitors to climb out when there isn't a fire.

But what of a child, older or frail person, someone with a broken arm, etc. Sure, you'll try anything in an emergency, but you should have to make-do in an emergency.

Thanks for the advice. The bedroom is reasonably large, what's the planning implication? Not bringing it below a certain sq footage? Or changing floor space at all?

Appreciate your comments on not being too easy to hop out. So the thinking would be bring it to code height, and then worry about incorporating aesthetic considerations?

MrDerp

caz4 wrote: »

Hi Mr Derp,

Thanks for the response.

Yes from a fire safety point of view, we would build in a window seat, not a big deal.

Our real problem is that the surveyor is telling us that the house didnt meet regs which were in place when the house was built in 1995.

Has anyone any experience of this?

Me also, house built in 98, there's a couple of reg infractions. The windows as mentioned, locks on other upstairs windows, some inappropriate glazing (not safety glass in a low window).

You've been warned basically, but it won't stop you from buying it. You're accepting some carry forward items to deal with yourself, or to cloud any future sale.

MouseTail wrote: »

Do you not have a certificate of compliance for the house? How was it signed off if it didn't meet building regs or planning at the time?

This is Ireland. It's not hard to get a signature for anything

In our case the house was built by an architect, and signed off on by another. Draw your own conclusions.

Victor

MrDerp wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. The bedroom is reasonably large, what's the planning implication? Not bringing it below a certain sq footage? Or changing floor space at all?

The design standards in the development plan will typically specify minimum floor areas for certain rooms. Internal alterations don't normally need planning permission - exceptions would be listed buildings, etc.

So the thinking would be bring it to code height, and then worry about incorporating aesthetic considerations?

Essentially.

MrDerp wrote: »

some inappropriate glazing (not safety glass in a low window).

This is a particularly dangerous to people who fall against he glass and particularly small children.