Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

Nodin

K.Flyer wrote: »

I can never understand why some people come to Ireland saying that they want to live here "...because of the people", "...because of the culture", "...because of the history", "...because of the standard of education", "...because of the work opportunities" blah blah blah etc etc etc.
And then turn around and say "...well, actually, while we do love Ireland for all those reasons, we want Ireland to change from the way it has been doing things, to the way we want to do things. And then get all snotty and worked up about it when there are told No.
Now either people come here for the way Ireland is, (in the same way as people leave because of the way Ireland is), or they are coming here with another agenda in mind.

What agenda would that be?

alastair

K.Flyer wrote: »

I can never understand why some people come to Ireland saying that they want to live here "...because of the people", "...because of the culture", "...because of the history", "...because of the standard of education", "...because of the work opportunities" blah blah blah etc etc etc.
And then turn around and say "...well, actually, while we do love Ireland for all those reasons, we want Ireland to change from the way it has been doing things, to the way we want to do things. And then get all snotty and worked up about it when there are told No.
Now either people come here for the way Ireland is, (in the same way as people leave because of the way Ireland is), or they are coming here with another agenda in mind.

Who was getting snotty?

Mind you, what's this fantasy of the country remaining unchanged, or of plain old home-grown indigenous Irish not wanting change themselves? Anyone with a stake in this nation has every right to lobby for changes, for better or worse.

rozeboosje

As demographics change, as technology changes, as our understanding of reality changes with scientific advances, as the world becomes more and more interconnected all our societies must necessarily change to keep up with all that. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

What everybody needs to understand though is that changes can only come about through dialogue. Everybody has the right to seek changes in society that they think are important. But as society has become multicultural and people adhere to many different belief systems (or to none) and political ideologies and so on, the time where a ruling elite could simply assume that it could assert authority over the whole population's customs and morality is long gone, and that is something that many people find very hard to come to grips with. If anybody wants anything to change they need to convince everybody outside their own group that this change is desirable and for the better. And that is a very different challenge to convincing people from inside one's own group. If one is a religious believer, one can hold a position of authority within the religious organisation and claim to speak on behalf of a "god" or "the Church" or whatnot. Political or other ideologues can claim a special level of understanding of the founder's ideas, and claim to speak with authority about what Karl Marx or Ayn Rand said and expect their "followers" to submit to their authority. None of that will wash with society as a whole. If one seeks changes in society one will need to convince the out-group. And resorting to arguments such as "god says", "Karl Marx wrote", "the Pope declared", "it is written in the Bible/Qur'an/Bhagavad Gita" or "a Fatwah states that" will simply not be acceptable. Explain the need for change in terms that are intelligible and that make sense to those from outside the "club", and change will happen, and for good reason. Otherwise it won't, and one just has to grin and bear it.

In a multicultural society every culture that is represented within the society should have the right to express itself and to celebrate its special identity within society as a whole, but they must also accept that society does contain members from other social backgrounds who have those very same rights, and if one finds the way another part of society expresses itself "offensive" then one has to learn to look the other way at something that one finds less offensive. One cannot expect to be taken seriously while demanding that other people in society should change what they're doing without being able to provide an intelligible and acceptable rationale for that. Intelligible and acceptable to the recipient.

AlekSmart

rozeboosje wrote: »

As demographics change, as technology changes, as our understanding of reality changes with scientific advances, as the world becomes more and more interconnected all our societies must necessarily change to keep up with all that. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

What everybody needs to understand though is that changes can only come about through dialogue. Everybody has the right to seek changes in society that they think are important. But as society has become multicultural and people adhere to many different belief systems (or to none) and political ideologies and so on, the time where a ruling elite could simply assume that it could assert authority over the whole population's customs and morality is long gone, and that is something that many people find very hard to come to grips with. If anybody wants anything to change they need to convince everybody outside their own group that this change is desirable and for the better. And that is a very different challenge to convincing people from inside one's own group. If one is a religious believer, one can hold a position of authority within the religious organisation and claim to speak on behalf of a "god" or "the Church" or whatnot. Political or other ideologues can claim a special level of understanding of the founder's ideas, and claim to speak with authority about what Karl Marx or Ayn Rand said and expect their "followers" to submit to their authority. None of that will wash with society as a whole. If one seeks changes in society one will need to convince the out-group. And resorting to arguments such as "god says", "Karl Marx wrote", "the Pope declared", "it is written in the Bible/Qur'an/Bhagavad Gita" or "a Fatwah states that" will simply not be acceptable. Explain the need for change in terms that are intelligible and that make sense to those from outside the "club", and change will happen, and for good reason. Otherwise it won't, and one just has to grin and bear it.

In a multicultural society every culture that is represented within the society should have the right to express itself and to celebrate its special identity within society as a whole, but they must also accept that society does contain members from other social backgrounds who have those very same rights, and if one finds the way another part of society expresses itself "offensive" then one has to learn to look the other way at something that one finds less offensive. One cannot expect to be taken seriously while demanding that other people in society should change what they're doing without being able to provide an intelligible and acceptable rationale for that. Intelligible and acceptable to the recipient.

Good summation rozeboosje (Netherlands ?).

It is even more germane that it is hugely relevant to modern Ireland,which is still struggling to accept the "new reality" for it's former State supported religion,Catholicism.

Luckily,in many ways,the demise of old-style Irish Catholic dogma has occurred in a relatively short time-frame,and even allowing for the cruelty and malpractices,has not involved open inter-community warfare.

Islam,on the other hand,particularly in the form so elequently espoused here,by Dr Selim,is experiencing far more violent spasms as it's "Old Guard" struggle against the march of modernity,both within and without their belief structure.

Sadly,"Grinning and Bearing It" is not a widely practiced response amongst the warring factions of Islam.

The challenge for modern Ireland,is to remain staunch in it's requirement that system changes must meet,the "Intelligible and Acceptable to the recipient" pre-qualification for consideration

Nemeses2050

just for your info...Two biggest and oldest Islamic centres disagree with Dr.Selim...

http://islaminireland.com/news/irish-muslims-organisations-praise-school-system/

realweirdo

1123heavy wrote: »

There seems to have been a major thread drift. For those worrying about how muslims view others that aren't muslim, well here's a verse of the quran.

“ … If anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole humanity.” (5:32)

Life - in all forms - is one of the most valued things in Islam, even in times of war Muslims are bound by certain rules, you're not even allowed to harm a tree, all hostages are to be treated with respect (harming them is a major sin !), we are also taught to be tolerant of others.

“…There is no compulsion in religion…” (Quran 2:256)

“To you be your religion, to me be mine.” (Quran 109:6)


We are also repeatedly told throughout the Quran of how close we are to the Christians and Jews, our holiest prophets were of the Jewish people (Moses, Jesus, David, Solomon etc).

Anyone who thinks as a muslim they are to kill non-believers, is either naive, ignorant, or is using Islam as a cover up for their own evil agenda. To those watching the horrors currently being committed by ISIS and thinking we're all the same, just remember there are just under 1.5 Billion Muslims in this world, and ISIS is made up of naive young people brainwashed by ignorant people who claim to know everything about islam when the fact is they know nothing.

Just as an example. The ISIS 'leader' Baghdadi was filmed wearing a watch made of gold. Considering it is forbidden for men to wear gold in Islam I think it's a bit silly taking what he says and commands as true Islam. These people are clueless and take quranic verses out of context to suit their own agendas in killing innocent people !!!!!

Apologies for drifting the thread even further but I got a sense people on here actually think 'radical' terrorists were true reps of Islam.

There is no question ISIS is a maurauding criminal gang who rape, pillage, steal and murder to satisfy their bloodlust.

They seem however to have a fanatical devotion to Mohammad and Mohammad and his original followers more resembled ISIS than anything else. That's a harsh truth that some people would love to brush under the carpet and make out Islam is based on peace and light and so on. Islam was certainly not originally spread by gentle persuasion, it was spread by forced conversion and beheadings or similar for those who refused, much as ISIS are mimicking today.

Mohammad accepted very little resistance to his claims and ISIS equally don't.

There is very little to recommend Islam as a religion of peace unfortunately. The same goes for Christianity and Judaism by the way. They all have shameful histories.

seanaway

''If anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land.....

Question on this:

Define mischief in the land, please.

To my mind that leaves it WIDE open to any nut to interpret this as 'talking about a religion other than Islam'.

These people are clueless and take quranic verses out of context to suit their own agendas in killing innocent people !!!!!

Question on this:

Who's interpretation of the Quran is the 'right one' then?

Apologies for drifting the thread even further but I got a sense people on here actually think 'radical' terrorists were true reps of Islam.

I don't think this is true. I think people believe are intelligent to know that nutters are nutters. They are aware though of the cause of people becoming nutters - hence the thread.

AlekSmart

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

just for your info...Two biggest and oldest Islamic centres disagree with Dr.Selim...

http://islaminireland.com/news/irish-muslims-organisations-praise-school-system/

What is required additionally is for the Mainstream Muslim community to get their voices heard through indentifiable spokespersons,speaking as Committe's tends to reinforce the perception of Dr Selim's views as coming from an Influential Senior Cleric et al...

Perhaps we should study how the moderate French Islamic folks are now speaking out ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/26/muslims-rally-against-extremism_n_5889962.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

What is required additionally is for the Mainstream Muslim community to get their voices heard through indentifiable spokespersons,speaking as Committe's tends to reinforce the perception of Dr Selim's views as coming from an Influential Senior Cleric et al...

Perhaps we should study how the moderate French Islamic folks are now speaking out ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/26/muslims-rally-against-extremism_n_5889962.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Yes, there's a clear parallel between the two issues.

alastair

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, there's a clear parallel between the two issues.

Yes. The issue of PE lessons for girls is just another facet of the 'warring factions of Islam', just like ISIS, and the need for all Muslims to reassure everyone they're not rooting for them. You know, as part of that whole violent spasm thing.


I'm still not sure what an indentifiable spokesperson is though.

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

Yes. The issue of PE lessons for girls is just another facet of the 'warring factions of Islam', just like ISIS, and the need for all Muslims to reassure everyone they're not rooting for them. You know, as part of that whole violent spasm thing.

I'm still not sure what an indentifiable spokesperson is though.

Dr Selim,is quite easily identifiable as a significant personage in the world of Irish Islam.

His pronouncements carry some weight for many devotees as they come from such a readily identifiable source...man to Man,so to speak.

Just as with the entire religious paraphernalia,the mouthpiece can often make the message.....Not for nothing do we have a Jesus,Allah,Mohammed,Joeseph Smith,Ian Paisley or whatever.

Committees,on the other hand,often end up trying to make their collective voice heard over the more readily identifiable "Una Voce".

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, there's a clear parallel between the two issues.

There certainly is,and becoming clearer each passing day.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Dr Selim,is quite easily identifiable as a significant personage in the world of Irish Islam.

His pronouncements carry some weight for many devotees as they come from such a readily identifiable source...man to Man,so to speak.

By that reckoning David Quinn must speak for the entire Irish Catholic community.

Eh, no.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

There certainly is,and becoming clearer each passing day.

Do please explain then, the equivalence of Dr Selim and ISIS.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Do please explain then, the equivalence of Dr Selim and ISIS.

No need,a quick e-mail to the P.R. section of the Islamic State enquiring as to their policies on Islamic Girls and shared P.E. classes,or even educating Girls at all,will provide you with far more "equivalence" than I ever could.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

No need,a quick e-mail to the P.R. section of the Islamic State enquiring as to their policies on Islamic Girls and shared P.E. classes,or even educating Girls at all,will provide you with far more "equivalence" than I ever could.

No doubt we can expect the good Dr. Ali to rolling around town any day now in a Humvee and start a campaign of murder and kidnappings? The denizens of Clonskeagh should be warned immediately!

realweirdo

The fundamental point in all of this is that Islam is not a progressive, liberal religion which shares much if anything with western values. Students of it are already radicalised even if they never meet a radical preacher. The only thing that keeps Islam in check in the west is the fact it is part of a much larger society and Islam is a small minority. However where Islam is the majority religion, democracy is the exception rather than the rule, and civil rights, free speech and the rights of women are severely limited. Islam might have appeared enlightented in the 7th century but it certainly doesn't today.

Timberrrrrrrr

realweirdo wrote: »

The fundamental point in all of this is that Islam is not a progressive, liberal religion which shares much if anything with western values. Students of it are already radicalised even if they never meet a radical preacher. The only thing that keeps Islam in check in the west is the fact it is part of a much larger society and Islam is a small minority. However where Islam is the majority religion, democracy is the exception rather than the rule, and civil rights, free speech and the rights of women are severely limited. Islam might have appeared enlightented in the 7th century but it certainly doesn't today.

What a pile of utter codswallop

conorhal

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

just for your info...Two biggest and oldest Islamic centres disagree with Dr.Selim...

http://islaminireland.com/news/irish-muslims-organisations-praise-school-system/

That's just a damage limitation excercise after one of their fold spoke a little too loudly and a little too soon. 'We disagree with Dr. Selim' say the organization that operate their school exactly in line with the demands of the disagreeable Dr. Selim. Pull the other one.

alastair

conorhal wrote: »

That's just a damage limitation excercise after one of their fold spoke a little too loudly and a little too soon. 'We disagree with Dr. Selim' say the organization that operate their school exactly in line with the demands of the disagreeable Dr. Selim. Pull the other one.

Just because there might be particular rules within a faith-based school, it doesn't follow that the IFI or ICCI would expect the same rules be applied by schools outside their own operation. They're clearly saying they they disagree with Dr. Selim's views in that regard. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

No need,a quick e-mail to the P.R. section of the Islamic State enquiring as to their policies on Islamic Girls and shared P.E. classes,or even educating Girls at all,will provide you with far more "equivalence" than I ever could.

No, no, no. You made the comparison, you spell it out.

Ash.J.Williams

Dear Mr. Muslim.....NO .....we've had enough religion to last us a lifetime. Feel free to bang your drum in your raffle free environment.

masonchat

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Dear Mr. Muslim.....NO .....we've had enough religion to last us a lifetime. Feel free to bang your drum in your raffle free environment.

Dont say that because next thing they will be looking to be playing the call to prayer 5 times a day starting before dawn under the argument well you ring a bell

realweirdo

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What a pile of utter codswallop

So you disagree that followers of Islam base their lives and viewpoints on the teachings of a 7th century prophet?

For example, you offer democracy to Islamic countries around the world and the natural tendency eventually is to descend into religious sectarianism as you see in Iraq or a leaning towards Sharia Law. There is just no imagination in these countries among the general populous. It's Islam or nothing.

It's just not a progressive religion in any way shape or form. It has a radical approach to most things, particularly dealing with athieism.

rozeboosje

I love the way general sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people are presented as fact without the slightest supporting evidence.

Timberrrrrrrr

realweirdo wrote: »

So you disagree that followers of Islam base their lives and viewpoints on the teachings of a 7th century prophet?

For example, you offer democracy to Islamic countries around the world and the natural tendency eventually is to descend into religious sectarianism as you see in Iraq or a leaning towards Sharia Law. There is just no imagination in these countries among the general populous. It's Islam or nothing.

It's just not a progressive religion in any way shape or form. It has a radical approach to most things, particularly dealing with athieism.

Yes

Yes i do, but then i have Muslim friends and interact with Muslims on a daily basis so i know that your sensationalist statements are utter codswallop.

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

I love the way general sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people are presented as fact without the slightest supporting evidence.

Is that so?

How well do you think I would fare by making the statements I have been in an Islamic country? Not very well! And not just a small radical minority but the entire population would be out to get me. Like I said, western culture has had a mitigating impact on Islamic followers for the most part in the west.

But all in all, the religion is against all things western including democracy. So like I said when you teach Islam to someone, you are already sowing seeds of radicalism. It just needs someone even more radical to tip someone over the edge into outright hostility and violent militancy towards the west.

realweirdo

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes

Yes i do, but then i have Muslim friends and interact with Muslims on a daily basis so i know that your sensationalist statements are utter codswallop.

You interact with them in the west, that's the point. You keep missing my argument about how living in the west makes people more moderate.

As for saying what others are saying is codswallop, can you try to express yourself in a more mature way?

Timberrrrrrrr

realweirdo wrote: »

You interact with them in the west, that's the point. You keep missing my argument about how living in the west makes people more moderate.

As for saying what others are saying is codswallop, can you try to express yourself in a more mature way?

I'd love to but i can't afford another ban so i will let you continue to post codswallop and bid you good day.

realweirdo

I would hate to see our schools become a propaganda platform for any religion which is why religion shouldn't be taught in schools fullstop. Children are in no way capable of deciding if a particular religion is for them or not, or if it is historically factual or man-made myths posing as historical "facts".

In other words, children get a one-sided view of religion with next to no critical view of it. Which is wrong.

_Brian

I think were getting to the stage where no religion is in schools.

The only potential benefit I could see is that if it were state regulated would there be less chance of it being radicalised ?

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

Is that so?

How well do you think I would fare by making the statements I have been in an Islamic country? Not very well! And not just a small radical minority but the entire population would be out to get me. Like I said, western culture has had a mitigating impact on Islamic followers for the most part in the west.

But all in all, the religion is against all things western including democracy. So like I said when you teach Islam to someone, you are already sowing seeds of radicalism. It just needs someone even more radical to tip someone over the edge into outright hostility and violent militancy towards the west.

The entire population, eh?

Do you admire the bravery of Malala Yousafzai? You should. She stood up against the barbarity and the backwardness of her local Taliban fanatics. And she paid a heavy price for her bravery.

Never saw her denounce her RELIGION though. She was a Muslimah then, and she still is a Muslimah now.

The only thing you need to disprove a sweeping generalisation is a SINGLE exception.

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

The entire population, eh?

Do you admire the bravery of Malala Yousafzai? You should. She stood up against the barbarity and the backwardness of her local Taliban fanatics. And she paid a heavy price for her bravery.

Never saw her denounce her RELIGION though. She was a Muslimah then, and she still is a Muslimah now.

The only thing you need to disprove a sweeping generalisation is a SINGLE exception.

And you have to prove how Islam is a liberal progressive religion which shares any values with the west. Not its adherants as such but Islam.

You have proven the point that there is no free speech in islamic societies. People are executed regularly in the middle east by nation states such as Iran for the slightest rejection of Islam. Its not a benign religion. Its not a religion of peace unfortunately no matter how many Imans say otherwise. And it should have no place in state schools.

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

And you have to prove how Islam is a liberal progressive religion

Show me where I made that claim, then issue demands. Because I am most certainly not going to defend a position that YOU attribute to me.

K.Flyer

realweirdo wrote: »

.....
In other words, children get a one-sided view of religion with next to no critical view of it. Which is wrong.

Which is why I was, even at a very young age, considered quite disruptive in religion class during my school days.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

No, no, no. You made the comparison, you spell it out.

The aetheists made a good start in their responses...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/atheist-ireland-invites-muslim-schools-in-ireland-to-be-inclusive-1.1920757

Dr Selim's list of requirements which will make the Irish Educational system acceptable to whatever number of Muslims he may represent..

Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated

Special days off for Muslim children

Schools to actively participate in Ramadan by raising funds for "the needy"

A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam

"Crucial" changes to Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum to exclude reference to or attempted normalization of pre-marital relationships

Exemptions and radical change to PE to ensure female only teachers and a ban on male staff accessing areas where girls might be taking lessons

All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")

School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

Most people reading through this stuff will see a common thread with the "Rules of Isis" as is currently being rolled out across their parish...although it seems that belatedly,the saner side of Islam is at last standing up to the NutJobs....

Perhaps to ensure clarity of purpose,the good Dr Selim will declare either for or agin the policies of ISIS,some of which may have a familiar ring for him....

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/life-under-isis-robbery-sex-slaves-headless-bodies-street-1459147

The militants ordered mandatory school curriculum changes, and closed the universities. Women were ordered to wear the Niqab and forbidden from leaving their homes unless accompanied by a brother, husband or father. Everyone was required to attend prayers, with markets and shops being forced to shut down during the prayer times. Smoking was banned across the city.

Look, for example, at the way the militants repressed people's personal freedoms and trampled on their livelihoods by closing cafes and shops where men and woman may come into contact.

Maisaa, 22, says: "We have become afraid to leave our house for fear of prosecution. If we wish to marry foreigners, we can be kidnapped;

So,that's enough "spelling-out" for me,but only for me,Mind you.....

Everybody else is free to make up their own mind as to whether the Islam "friendly" Irish Education system desired by Dr Selim,will eventually come to resemble the system currently being enforced by the new Islamic State rulers.

There is also a DCU video,from March 2012, which may assist such folks in their deliberations.

The interview is some 40 minutes long,but is worth both listening to and watching,for both the views of Imam Sheikh Halawa and the Translation skills of Dr Selim.

(Although Skeikh Halawa has lived in Ireland for 18 years,he apparently does not speak English.It is perhaps also worth noting that he is the father of the Irish Hawalla family who were deported by the Egyptian authorities with the elder son still remaining in prison there)

http://www4.dcu.ie/talkingheads/sheik_hussein_halawa.shtml

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

The aetheists (....................)

Other than bull, muck throwing and more rabbit holes, you seem to have offered nothing.


You stated here that protests on the scale of those seen against ISIS should be employed against Dr Selim.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92422816&postcount=209

You have shown nothing to justify that call, at all, in any way shape or form.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Everybody else is free to make up their own mind as to whether the Islam "friendly" Irish Education system desired by Dr Selim,will eventually come to resemble the system currently being enforced by the new Islamic State rulers.

Let me give that the time it deserves to ponder. Finished! It's a nonsense.

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

The entire population, eh?

Do you admire the bravery of Malala Yousafzai? You should. She stood up against the barbarity and the backwardness of her local Taliban fanatics. And she paid a heavy price for her bravery.

Never saw her denounce her RELIGION though. She was a Muslimah then, and she still is a Muslimah now.

The only thing you need to disprove a sweeping generalisation is a SINGLE exception.

and the poor girl requires round the clock security in the UK due to religion of peace nutters still trying to kill her! also good job she does not denounce her religion or literally hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the UK would happily see her be decapitated. 36% of young british muslims believe apostates should be killed!
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

and the poor girl requires round the clock security in the UK due to religion of peace nutters still trying to kill her!

Kindly explain how that fact allows you to make sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people who self identify as "Muslim"

yipeeeee

Ah look if anyone in the world is not happy in another country they know what to do.

That goes for Irish, whites, blacks,chinese , Muslims etc.

Really sick of the constant whining at this stage.

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

Kindly explain how that fact allows you to make sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people who self identify as "Muslim"

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

Timberrrrrrrr

gallag wrote: »

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

I would like to see some hard evidence for a start.

alastair

gallag wrote: »

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

Of those 1.5 billion Muslims living worldwide, particularly those living in Muslim majority states, how many actually live in societies where apostates are killed as a matter of law? Is it over, or under, a third? There's been ample opportunity for them, after all, to enshrine this belief into law, and then carry out this sentence, when apostasy arises.

Clearly it's a horrid and inexcusable belief to hold, but as a broad community, it's clearly not a belief that is actually acted upon to anywhere near those sort of figures. And that's a fact. So no, there's no excuse for that belief, but nor is there any excuse for pretending the consequence of majority muslim societies is the enforcement of that belief.

gallag

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I would like to see some hard evidence for a start.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/

Timberrrrrrrr

gallag wrote: »

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/

:rolleyes:

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I would like to see some hard evidence for a start.

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

Firstly, let's assume that your statistic is correct. I'm actually not convinced of that. But, hey, let's. Well then:

How does the fact that almost two thirds of UK Muslim youths do NOT support killing apostates sit with you? How do you justify posting your horse manure about "Islam" in the light of THAT fact?

I will wholeheartedly condemn violence and barbarity in the name of any religion or ideology. But I'm not willing to blame something like "Islam" on the basis of what SOME of its adherents do. I'm happy to accept that the community of people who call themselves "Muslim" have a problem they need to address, perhaps by educating their own people better on what Islam actually is as opposed to the radical noise coming out of the likes of ISIS and Al Qaeda. That's their problem to solve though, not mine. What I won't do, no matter how much you pontificate on threads like these, though, is join the ZOMGISLAM brigade.

gallag

alastair wrote: »

Of those 1.5 billion Muslims living worldwide, particularly those living in Muslim majority states, how many actually live in societies where apostates are killed as a matter of law? Is it over, or under, a third? There's been ample opportunity for them, after all, to enshrine this belief into law, and then carry out this sentence, when apostasy arises.

Clearly it's a horrid and inexcusable belief to hold, but as a broad community, it's clearly not a belief that is actually acted upon to anywhere near those sort of figures. And that's a fact. So no, there's no excuse for that belief, but nor is there any excuse for pretending the consequence of majority muslim societies is the enforcement of that belief.

A survey conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2010 found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).[114] Another survey conducted by Pew Research Center in 2012 among Muslim populations found little change in attitudes towards apostasy in Islamic countries it was able to conduct a survey. Death penalty for apostasy in Islam was favored by large majorities of Muslims in Egypt (86%), Jordan (82%), Afghanistan (79%), Pakistan (76%), Malaysia (62%), Palestinian Territories (66%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (46%), Bangladesh (44%), Iraq (42%), Tunisia (29%), Tajikistan (22%), Indonesia (18%) and Turkey (17%).[115] Governments of six Gulf countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait - did not permit Pew Research to survey nationwide public opinion on apostasy in 2010 or 2012.

rozeboosje

NOT in favour (and, again, assuming you didn't pull your figures out of a deep dark place):

Egypt (14%), Jordan (18%), Afghanistan (21%), Pakistan (24%), Malaysia (38%), Palestinian Territories (34%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (54%), Bangladesh (56%), Iraq (58%), Tunisia (71%), Tajikistan (78%), Indonesia (82%) and Turkey (83%)

I'm happy to agree that the Egyptian etc. figures are quite disturbing, but add all the Muslims who do NOT support such barbaric punishments together, and you get a very large number of people who call themselves Muslim and who practice what they call Islam who do not support barbarity.

So, again, please explain from where you get the justification to tar all of "Islam" with the broad brush?

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

NOT in favour (and, again, assuming you didn't pull your figures out of a deep dark place):

Egypt (14%), Jordan (18%), Afghanistan (21%), Pakistan (24%), Malaysia (38%), Palestinian Territories (34%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (54%), Bangladesh (56%), Iraq (58%), Tunisia (71%), Tajikistan (78%), Indonesia (82%) and Turkey (83%)

I'm happy to agree that the Egyptian etc. figures are quite disturbing, but add all the Muslims who do NOT support such barbaric punishments together, and you get a very large number of people who call themselves Muslim and who practice what they call Islam who do not support barbarity.

So, again, please explain from where you get the justification to tar all of "Islam" with the broad brush?

where have a tared all of islam with the same brush? is that a strawman? I mean when presented with the information that the majority of Muslims would support cutting someone's head of of they tried to leave their religion you instead argued something I never said or done? is that a straw man?