Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

Pure any religion means going back to the original sources of the religion, ie their holy book. Does that clear it up?

Sure, but by that token there are No True ScotsMusselmen.

alastair

realweirdo wrote: »

Pure any religion means going back to the original sources of the religion, ie their holy book. Does that clear it up?

That doesn't really help - as the interpretation of those texts is wide open. Protestantism is rigorously based on the same biblical scripture. Yet in 1985 there were 22,190 Protestant denominations worldwide, with an extra five popping up weekly.

rozeboosje

alastair wrote: »

That doesn't really help - as the interpretation of those texts is wide open. Protestantism is rigorously based on the same biblical scripture. Yet in 1985 there were 22,190 Protestant denominations worldwide, with an extra five popping up weekly.

Exactly. Even self-avowed literalists cannot agree amongst each other how to "literally" interpret their Holy Books. The argument that there is a single "true" Islam/Christianity/Whateverelse is beyond silly.

AlekSmart

rozeboosje wrote: »

Exactly. Even self-avowed literalists cannot agree amongst each other how to "literally" interpret their Holy Books. The argument that there is a single "true" Islam/Christianity/Whateverelse is beyond silly.

Luckily for the Prods,none of these "Literalists" went as far as beheading anybody.

Like it or not,the very real beheadings and mass executions,which we have free access to via Internet are both carried out and publicised by groups comprised of ISLAMIC proponents.

In so many of the sad examples,we can hear Allah being both praised and called upon to accept the judgement being delivered upon other MOSLEMS,in his name.

Like it or not,the steadily increasing amount of these ritual slaughterings are NOT being carried out by Catholics,Protestants,Hindu's or Athiests,but by self-styled DEVOUT members of Islam.

The words of the Prophet are oft provided to justify whatever new level of savagery is being depicted,with,oddly enough,some of the accounts even accompanied by Music and Song.

I really don't give a fiddlers how many "true" versions of Islam there are,at this point in Human existence,that arguement can be made in so many ways,other than Decapitating a shackled human being kneeling in front of you.

Thus far,I'm not seeing any recent examples of Christians or Whateverelse's using this form of savagery to promote their rerspective sects,and it must be said,nor are they suggesting it.

I find it sad and not a bit pathetic,that when a question as to whether any further "accomodation of Islamic Beliefs" by the Irish State Education system is even raised,it results in a flurry of smarty pant comments and glib one line triumphalist preening.

At the end of the day,my concerns for the well-being of Islam,as a belief system,religion,or whatever,are not of enough import to stir a cup of tea.

My immediate priority would be to clear my own family involvelent with the Irish Education System,BEFORE it is bundled headlong back into a 1950's style,segregated,navel gazing pastiche of what we thought we had overcome...Once that personal priority is achieved,the rest of you can "Accomodate" as much as ye want...with my Blessing

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

self-styled DEVOUT members of Islam.

There you go. Why not recognise them as your concern, rather than the rest of the poor sods, who just want to get on with their lives, and not bother anyone?

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Luckily for the Prods,none of these "Literalists" went as far as beheading anybody.

...

I find it sad and not a bit pathetic,that when a question as to whether any further "accomodation of Islamic Beliefs" by the Irish State Education system is even raised,it results in a flurry of smarty pant comments and glib one line triumphalist preening.

Like the one above?

Perhaps you could point to where anyone on this thread actually supported the good Dr. Selim in his requests?

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

There you go. Why not recognise them as your concern, rather than the rest of the poor sods, who just want to get on with their lives, and not bother anyone?

Which I most assuredly do...however,all the indications are that there are far more of these relative to the overall numbers,and certainly far more who are prepared to loudly demand our aquiescence to their demands.....if the rest of the "Poor Sods" want to come forth and agree with my thinking that'll be fine too.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Which I most assuredly do...however,all the indications are that there are far more of these relative to the overall numbers,and certainly far more who are prepared to loudly demand our aquiescence to their demands.....if the rest of the "Poor Sods" want to come forth and agree with my thinking that'll be fine too.

Who exactly was loudly demanding you acquiesced to their demands? I'm going to guess nobody was? Am I right?

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

Like the one above?

Perhaps you could point to where anyone on this thread actually supported the good Dr. Selim in his requests?

Only referencing the fact,that to my knowledge,none of the other Religions mentioned has been used to legitimize Beheadings so far this century ?

I could be wrong of course ?

The thread is,I very much hope,about a bit more than which team the posting contributors support.

I am kinda heartened that,so far,it's only the Irish Athiests who have weighed in behind Dr Selim,something which he may or may not find heartening.

realweirdo

alastair wrote: »

That doesn't really help - as the interpretation of those texts is wide open. Protestantism is rigorously based on the same biblical scripture. Yet in 1985 there were 22,190 Protestant denominations worldwide, with an extra five popping up weekly.

Over and over in the Quran there are passages along the lines directing followers to kill maim and enslave opponents or burn in hell. There's not many ways to interpret that. If even 1 in a hundred followers takes it litterally you end up having militant groups of tens of thousands of members intent on just that. No amount of apologetics or pretending this problem doesn't exist from you will change this.

The teaching of religion in schools across the western world has been a total and absmal failure.

If I wrote a book today similar to the Quran inciting people to do this or that, wipe out enemies and so on there would be outrage and it would be banned.

There is only so far you can take liberalism until it contributes to the downfall of civilisation.

There is no place for religion in schools...agreed?

realweirdo

alastair wrote: »

That doesn't really help - as the interpretation of those texts is wide open. Protestantism is rigorously based on the same biblical scripture. Yet in 1985 there were 22,190 Protestant denominations worldwide, with an extra five popping up weekly.

And how many of those 22,190 go around beheading people as a matter of principle or enslave thousands of women for their own deviant purposes?

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Only referencing the fact,that to my knowledge,none of the other Religions mentioned has been used to legitimize Beheadings so far this century ?

I could be wrong of course ?

Well, besides the Lord's Resistance Army, and presumably any variety of other nutters out there.

alastair

realweirdo wrote: »

And how many of those 22,190 go around beheading people as a matter of principle or enslave thousands of women for their own deviant purposes?

About the same proportion that do within the Muslim faith, I'd imagine.

alastair

realweirdo wrote: »

Over and over in the Quran there are passages along the lines directing followers to kill maim and enslave opponents or burn in hell.

Have you met the Old Testament?

realweirdo

alastair wrote: »

Well, besides the Lord's Resistance Army, and presumably any variety of other nutters out there.

LRA is a miniscule group with no more than a few hundred core members. They certainly dont have the widespread support and sympathy groups like Isis, AQ and the Taliban have. Isis could not take over Mosul without local support.

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

Who exactly was loudly demanding you acquiesced to their demands? I'm going to guess nobody was? Am I right?

Again,thankfully most of the posts here have remained well within the bounds of debate,however this thread is about a tad more than just us and our words.

Dr Selim's "Call" for Irish State Schools to "accomodate Islamic Beliefs" is as loud and clearly demanding as it needs to be,and is one which I would not recommend acquiescing to as long as those same"beliefs" continue to be used as a bulwark for the execution of "Infidels".

So,No,I would suggest that you are NOT "right"...but you may well be more comfortable in the belief that you are,so that's ok with me too.

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

About the same proportion that do within the Muslim faith, I'd imagine.

Which would make it a very scarily large number of itself....However,so far it's the devout Islamic world which has turned the execution of Infidels and non devout co-religionists into Media events....

If you have any recent examples of images,video's or uses of the Old Testament,to justify actual mutilation and execution of lapsed fellow Christians then it would be worth posting it ?

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Dr Selim's "Call" for Irish State Schools to "accomodate Islamic Beliefs" is as loud and clearly demanding as it needs to be,and is one which I would not recommend acquiescing to as long as those same"beliefs" continue to be used as a bulwark for the execution of "Infidels".

So,No,I would suggest that you are NOT "right"...but you may well be more comfortable in the belief that you are,so that's ok with me too.

I'm not seeing any demands at all from Dr. Selim, let alone loud ones. A single figure publishes a book, In which he lobby's for greater accommodation for his particular interpretation of his religion in multi-faith schooling. You do realise that the underlying basis of society is that various individuals, groups, bodies, etc, are continually making their case for change, and that it's not remotely out of the norm?

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Which would make it a very scarily large number of itself....However,so far it's the devout Islamic world which has turned the execution of Infidels and non devout co-religionists into Media events....

No it's not the 'devout Muslim world'. It's one or two militias, and even there, there's no evidence that non-devout Muslims are being executed.

rozeboosje

Bloody rabid headcutteroffers!!!!



oh wait ...

rozeboosje

Why don't those so-called "moderate Muslims" speak out against these atrocities!?!? They are keeping silent about it!



oops.

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

Why don't those so-called "moderate Muslims" speak out against these atrocities!?!? They are keeping silent about it!



oops.

Do you seriously think ISIS are going to pay even the slightest bit of heed to campaigns like this? Particularly ones that originate in the west? They view all things western as evil. They view all muslims who live in the west as decadent I am pretty sure of that. If you aren't praying 5 times a day, and adhere to all the main tenets of Islam, they don't really view you as Islamic. Actually from what I can see, unless you are chopping off heads, they don't view you as Islamic.

In the conflict between moderate Islam and radical/violent Islam, the latter is winning, and there's not a whole lot that can be done about it. They don't listen to words, placards, campaigns or reason.

The only hope now for all of us, is to prevent the next generation of Muslim children from following suit into violent Islam. So far its not working as many who travelled to Syria were in their teens or early twenties.

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

they don't really view you as Islamic

They don't get to tell other Muslims whether they're Islamic or not.

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

They don't get to tell other Muslims whether they're Islamic or not.

That might be true, but they think the same themselves. They don't like others telling them they aren't Islamic. So its pointless saying to them they aren't Islamic. Unfortunately they have taken a very literal interpretation of the Quran, and have re-enacted many of the more heinious parts of it. They think they are following in the path of Muhammad, and truth be told, they mostly are.

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

That might be true, but they think the same themselves. They don't like others telling them they aren't Islamic. So its pointless saying to them they aren't Islamic. Unfortunately they have taken a very literal interpretation of the Quran, and have re-enacted many of the more heinious parts of it. They think they are following in the path of Muhammad, and truth be told, they mostly are.

You don't get to decide that, either. Or if you insist, fine. But then there aren't 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. I don't think many of those 1.5 billion people who call themselves "Muslim" will be particularly bothered by the fact that YOU or ISIS don't think so, though :-)

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

You don't get to decide that, either. Or if you insist, fine. But then there aren't 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. I don't think many of those 1.5 billion people who call themselves "Muslim" will be particularly bothered by the fact that YOU or ISIS don't think so, though :-)

They see themselves as devout Muslims following the best path to get them to paradise. They have taken a very literal interpretation of the Quran, and some might argue a very accurate interpretation. Some others such as yourself would argue they have taken a wrong interpretation.

The problem with Islam and all the other relgions is that everyone has a different interpretation, and yet they all think they have the right interpretation and a minority are prepared to fight to the death or more likely kill to protect their intrepretation. This is a major problem with all religions.

There's no such thing as a correct interpretation, everyone seems to have their own interpretation, so it is utterly pointless for some Imam somewhere to say they aren't following Islam. It's a complete waste of time. ISIS believe they have god on their side and with all the weapons they have, not many will argue with them on that point!

rozeboosje

Here are the simple facts:

- 1.5 Billion people call themselves "Muslim"
- All of them will state categorically that they adhere to a belief system called "Islam"
- Many of them are perfectly peaceful and don't support the barbarity that some other people who claim to adhere to a belief system called "Islam" indulge in
- It is therefore nonsensical to state that "Islam" is inherently "barbaric" or whatnot, just like it is nonsensical to state that there is only one "real" Islam. Every Muslim believes that the version of Islam that they follow is if not THE "correct" one then one of the ones acceptable to "Allah", whatever that is.

QED

rozeboosje

Therefore, people like you shouldn't be fulminating against "Islam". You should be fulminating against the barbarians who choose to use "Islam" as an excuse to perform their barbaric acts. Your inability to make that subtle distinction causes unnecessary polarisation and forces perfectly decent ordinary Muslims into a corner, and they don't deserve that.

alastair

realweirdo wrote: »

Do you seriously think ISIS are going to pay even the slightest bit of heed to campaigns like this?

It's not directed at ISIS. It's directed at those casual bigots, who might well assume that ISIS had some form of connection with them, through claiming a religious rationale for their actions. You know those kind of bigots, all too eager to tarnish an entire religious community with the acts of a small minority?

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

Some others such as yourself would argue they have taken a wrong interpretation.

It's not my place to tell Muslims whose interpretation of their lovely little book is "right" or "wrong". To me it's all superstitious nonsense. But that's irrelevant. What *I* can do is encourage those whose interpretation is peaceful and to include them and embrace them as fellow human beings, and discourage and oppose those whose interpretation is confrontational, barbaric or unacceptable in a secular society. I'm under no delusion that I can get 1.5 billion people to stop believing in sky fairies. That's never gonna happen.

realweirdo

alastair wrote: »

It's not directed at ISIS. It's directed at those casual bigots, who might well assume that ISIS had some form of connection with them, through claiming a religious rationale for their actions. You know those kind of bigots, all too eager to tarnish an entire religious community with the acts of a small minority?

A bigot is typically someone who knows nothing about a religion or a race, hates people for the colour of their skin, is racist and so on.

Seems to me you flash the bigot card as soon as there is any legitimate criticism not of Muslims per se but of Islam itself.

My motives are to stand up for human rights and for people to be treated with respect, regardless of their religion.

Unfortunately and you cannot simply deny this, there is a strong bigotry in Islam against what it calls infidels. And if even a small minority act on this bigotry in a violent way we are all in trouble.

I'm out of this thread now.

alastair

realweirdo wrote: »

A bigot is typically someone who knows nothing about a religion or a race, hates people for the colour of their skin, is racist and so on.

Seems to me you flash the bigot card as soon as there is any legitimate criticism not of Muslims per se but of Islam itself.

Bigot. noun
a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

AlekSmart

rozeboosje wrote: »

It's not my place to tell Muslims whose interpretation of their lovely little book is "right" or "wrong". To me it's all superstitious nonsense. But that's irrelevant. What *I* can do is encourage those whose interpretation is peaceful and to include them and embrace them as fellow human beings, and discourage and oppose those whose interpretation is confrontational, barbaric or unacceptable in a secular society. I'm under no delusion that I can get 1.5 billion people to stop believing in sky fairies. That's never gonna happen.

There is common ground for sure.

Which is why I,personally,feel that Islamic adherents such as those you posted MUST be forcefully supported by their leaders,including the Imam's, and assorted other eminent clerical figures.

For every anonymous cultured,educated and reasonable Islamic adherent,there is an Anjem Chaudry,complete with voiciferous support and with apparently unending supplies of bile.

I'm not suggesting we should get 1.5 billion Muslims to stop believing in whatever fairy they prefer,but I would be satisfied if the "Tiny Percentage" who see decapitation as acceptable and sanctioned by their "Holy Prophet",were to reconsider their position.

rozeboosje

AlekSmart wrote: »

For every anonymous cultured,educated and reasonable Islamic adherent,there is an Anjem Chaudry,complete with voiciferous support and with apparently unending supplies of bile.

Yes, but the same can be said about the Westboros, albeit that they're not as physically dangerous as people going around cutting other people's heads off. The sad thing is that the loud and obnoxious minorities will always steal the limelight.

I'm an atheist. I have now lost interest in doing so, but for a couple of years I was quite busy posting videos on YouTube about being an atheist, and I got a small group of people interested enough to subscribe to me. There was this one guy who subscribed to me. Never commented much, but I knew he was there. For some reason he got his account suspended, and he created a new account, and subscribed to me again. I obviously must have been striking a chord with him if he felt I was interesting enough to subscribe not once, but twice.

I while later I heard that Pekka Erik Auvinen, because that's who it was, had gone on a murderous rampage through his school in Finland. I have no idea what possessed him. He had, apparently, embraced a bleak, nihilistic form of atheism that left him feeling that humanity was worthless .... what the effin' eff' ever. Rest assured that wherever he got his crazy ideas, it wasn't from ME. Should I go around denouncing the acts of somebody like him just because he and I happened to share one particular label, "atheist", and he seemed to take a particular interest in me and my public announcements? Why? The word obviously meant something completely different to him than it did to me. His nihilistic and dismissive view of humanity is utterly alien to me. We may both call ourselves "atheist" but we have precious little in common.

And I'm sympathetic to Muslims who feel tired of having to speak out every time a group like IS rears its ugly head. Their peaceful behaviour should in itself be enough to assure us that they have as little in common with IS as I would have had with mr. Auvinen.

Palmach

rozeboosje wrote: »

Yes, but the same can be said about the Westboros, albeit that they're not as physically dangerous as people going around cutting other people's heads off. The sad thing is that the loud and obnoxious minorities will always steal the limelight.

This is moral equivalence rubbish. The Westboros are 23 members. So small as to be statistically zero. IS have many many followers. Thousands of fighters and followers if not millions. The Muslim Brotherhood 10s of millions. The extreme Hizb ut Tahrir 100s of thousands. Boko Haram, Al Shabab, Al Qaeda, the Talban, MILF and on and on. Head hacking cave dwellers might well be a minority in Islam but they are far from a tiny one.

And I'm sympathetic to Muslims who feel tired of having to speak out every time a group like IS rears its ugly head. Their peaceful behaviour should in itself be enough to assure us that they have as little in common with IS as I would have had with mr. Auvinen.

Except their religion is the problem. There are peaceful Muslims but the only way Muslims will ever tackle extremism is if they speak and challenge the extremists. The fact they don't do so very often tells me that deep down Muslims know the Koran and the life of their founder Mohammed were violent and intolerant. Hence where ever Sharia Law is in place these places are violent intolerant places.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

There are peaceful Muslims but the only way Muslims will ever tackle extremism is if they speak and challenge the extremists. The fact they don't do so very often...

They don't? Oh wait...

rozeboosje

alastair wrote: »

They don't? Oh wait...

"what I can't be bothered to check out isn't happening"

rozeboosje

Palmach wrote: »

TThe Muslim Brotherhood 10s of millions.

Since that is an order of magnitude bigger than the other figures you pulled out of some dark place presented here, let me take that, and let me also be exceedingly generous and round that up to 100 million. That's a massive figure.

But since there are 1.5 billion Muslims (and again I'm being kind to you here, want to give you every chance in the world to make your figures as impressive as possible, but elsewhere I've seen people already talking about 1.6 rather than 1.5 billion Muslims) ..... that's less than 7% of all Muslims in the world.

Now explain again why you're throwing the other 93% on to the same heap?

rozeboosje

So let's see ... for comparison ...

In 2010, 15.5% of Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders and his club of racists. It's a shocking statistic. It bothers me, as I'm Dutch. But is "being Dutch" a problem, now? Should I be forced to redefine what it means to "be Dutch" so that it clearly excludes Geert and his party because, heaven forbid, some imbeciles who find it difficult to understand nuances and to whom every Dutchman looks alike would find it too difficult otherwise to make the distinction? Help me out here.

And let me add another interesting observation for good measure. 15.5% of Dutch people voted for Geert and his party. Are they ALL racists? Do they all fully understand and support what Geert and his party stand for? Or could it be perhaps - unimaginable as it may seem - that a lot of them voted for Geert and his party as a protest vote, without really understanding the implications or what the PVV actually stands for. Insert picture of pondering dinosaur here.

Palmach

rozeboosje wrote: »

So let's see ... for comparison ...

In 2010, 15.5% of Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders and his club of racists.

He is not a racist. He doesn't like Muslims but he isn't a racist. I can see I am dealing with a blinkered pc liberal who refuses to see reality. :mad:

rozeboosje

Palmach wrote: »

I can see I am dealing with a blinkered pc liberal who refuses to see reality. :mad:

I reject your reality and substitute my own

But yeah. I'm so terribly "PC" .... just look at my post 331. Pussyfooting around them, so I am. LOL

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

They don't? Oh wait...

Remember all those protest marches against Israel? Don't remember too many of the same people protesting against the Islamic State. Do you?

Palmach

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Tiny minority...................yeah right.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Remember all those protest marches against Israel? Don't remember too many of the same people protesting against the Islamic State. Do you?

The same people? Can't vouch for individuals, but...

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

Remember all those protest marches against Israel? Don't remember too many of the same people protesting against the Islamic State. Do you?

As IS are being bombed, its a bit hard to see what they would be protesting for.

Palmach wrote: »

He is not a racist. He doesn't like Muslims but he isn't a racist.

"It [is] absolutely undesirable that Amsterdam has no less than 177 nationalities".

"If more people need to remain working for more years, the PVV thinks that the Turks and Moroccans should be the first ones: In the age of 55-64 less than 10% of them currently works. It is unacceptable to have working Dutchmen pay the bill for this, by making them work on until their 67th birthday, which even restricts the financial build-up of their pension."
http://www.watwilwilders.nl/indexEN.html

and
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-elections-2014/wilders-election-strategy-shambles-after-racist-remarks-updated-301109

He's a vile article, to put it mildly.

rozeboosje

Nodin wrote: »

He's a vile article, to put it mildly.

Yeah - I didn't think that observation was even worth responding to....

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

The same people? Can't vouch for individuals, but...

Small isolated protests smaller than the protest over the cartoons.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Small isolated protests smaller than the protest over the cartoons.

You really weren't interested in standing over your claim, were you?

But then you reckon Wilders is not a racist, so critical thinking is clearly a challenge.

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

Small isolated protests smaller than the protest over the cartoons.

Yeah, nothing going on at all

'Islamic State' is a slur on our faith, say leading Muslims
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/13/term-islamic-state-slur-faith-david-Cameron

"Muslim leaders have issued a fatwa condemning British jihadists. "
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

"British Muslim scholars have made a direct video appeal to Islamist militants to release Alan Henning,whom they are threatening to behead, warning the killing would break Islamic laws."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/isis-muslim-scholars-call-release-alan-henning-hostage

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, nothing going on at all

'Islamic State' is a slur on our faith, say leading Muslims
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/13/term-islamic-state-slur-faith-david-Cameron

"Muslim leaders have issued a fatwa condemning British jihadists. "
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

"British Muslim scholars have made a direct video appeal to Islamist militants to release Alan Henning,whom they are threatening to behead, warning the killing would break Islamic laws."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/isis-muslim-scholars-call-release-alan-henning-hostage

Sadly it now appears that Alan Henning was beheaded earlier this evening....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/alan-henning-beheading-isis-video-appears-to-show-murder-of-british-aid-worker-30636929.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/03/isis-alan-henning_n_5929248.html

Difficult indeed to know what any ordinary structured society can do to stop these guys now.....they have decided to directly confront both Western Civilization,and more importantly,Mainstream Islam,both entities now facing a very significant and difficult problem.

Whether to accomodate or exorcise Militantcy from their midst...is it even feasible at this stage ?