Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

You really weren't interested in standing over your claim, were you?

But then you reckon Wilders is not a racist, so critical thinking is clearly a challenge.

I note you ignored the Pew research findings. Uncomfortable reading? That IS and similar types are a minority I can agree with. That they are a tiny minority not inspired or related to Islam I can't. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

IS and Muslims with similar barbaric views will be an irrelevant footnote when they stop getting financial and other backing from Muslims around the world and that will only happen when ISIS type beliefs are really restricted to Westboro Baptist church sized congregations.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

I note you ignored the Pew research findings. Uncomfortable reading?

Not at all. You do realise that Sharia courts exist in the UK, and the range of attitudes for where sharia should be applicable was all over the place in that study - as the headline makes clear. Even the most benign of parallel sharia domestic arbitration get included in the 'we want sharia' category.

Palmach wrote: »

IThat IS and similar types are a minority I can agree with. That they are a tiny minority not inspired or related to Islam I can't. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

IS and Muslims with similar barbaric views will be an irrelevant footnote when they stop getting financial and other backing from Muslims around the world and that will only happen when ISIS type beliefs are really restricted to Westboro Baptist church sized congregations.

So, I guess you're finished with the pretence that the Muslim community haven't been protesting ISIS?
ISIS are essentially self-funded. They've control of gas and oil, and operate a lucrative protect racket - they don't need any financial backing from Muslims around the world. They did get funding from some wealthy Gulf figures when they were focused on fighting Bashar al-Assad's dictatorship, but that's back a couple of years. It's primarily locally-generated revenue they use now.

rozeboosje

Exactly. The Daesh Cutthroats have been able to finance themselves for a good while now.

Palmach

rozeboosje wrote: »

Exactly. The Daesh Cutthroats have been able to finance themselves for a good while now.

Except they were initially financed by outsiders.

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

Not at all. You do realise that Sharia courts exist in the UK, and the range of attitudes for where sharia should be applicable was all over the place in that study - as the headline makes clear. Even the most benign of parallel sharia domestic arbitration get included in the 'we want sharia' category.

There is nothing "benign" about Sharia. Especially if you are female. The Pew research talked about stoning for apostasy and adultery. Those in favour were far from a small minority.

So, I guess you're finished with the pretence that the Muslim community haven't been protesting ISIS?

Small scale protests nothing like those against the Gaza conflict or even the cartoon controversy.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Except they were initially financed by outsiders.

As were all the groups fighting Assad.

Palmach

rozeboosje wrote: »

Since that is an order of magnitude bigger than the other figures you pulled out of some dark place presented here, let me take that, and let me also be exceedingly generous and round that up to 100 million. That's a massive figure.

But since there are 1.5 billion Muslims (and again I'm being kind to you here, want to give you every chance in the world to make your figures as impressive as possible, but elsewhere I've seen people already talking about 1.6 rather than 1.5 billion Muslims) ..... that's less than 7% of all Muslims in the world.

Now explain again why you're throwing the other 93% on to the same heap?

Only 7%. Shur what could go wrong. By the way here are some numbers. http://anarabcitizen.blogspot.ie/2012/02/do-we-finally-know-how-many-members-are.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/node/148823

But hey if you are happy in you cappuccino liberal pc bubble far be it for me to allow reality to intrude.

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

As were all the groups fighting Assad.

Some groups were not that fanatic. Many were. The many who were got more funding. I wonder why?

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

There is nothing "benign" about Sharia. Especially if you are female. The Pew research talked about stoning for apostasy and adultery. Those in favour were far from a small minority.

And as the headline makes clear, there's wide division about the degree of applicability of sharia. As to the business of whether you can have benign sharia courts or not, well the sharia courts in the UK, Canada etc, are voluntary arrangements, with recourse to civil law if the participants are unhappy with the court's decisions, so there's hardly much to get excited about there. Simply rolling sharia out as a catch-all bogieman is rather simplistic - even if you don't care for any aspect of the religion, or it's record of misogyny.

Palmach wrote: »

Small scale protests nothing like those against the Gaza conflict or even the cartoon controversy.

So what? You claimed to have seen none. The protests against Israeli actions in Gaza weren't' limited to Muslims in any case, so why pretend there should be equally large protests from one religious community?

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Some groups were not that fanatic. Many were. The many who were got more funding. I wonder why?

No doubt you have a nefarious reason in mind? But by any account, they were the most effective at fighting Assad's forces, so that might be a consideration.

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

And as the headline makes clear, there's wide division about the degree of applicability of sharia. As to the business of whether you can have benign sharia courts or not, well the sharia courts in the UK, Canada etc, are voluntary arrangements, with recourse to civil law if the participants are unhappy with the court's decisions, so there's hardly much to get excited about there. Simply rolling sharia out as a catch-all bogieman is rather simplistic - even if you don't care for any aspect of the religion, or it's record of misogyny.

Leaving aside Sharia Courts in places like the UK where Muslims are a minority Sharia in Muslim majority countries is seldom benign. There are large majorities in places like Pakistan and Egypt for stoning people for adultery and apostasy.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Leaving aside Sharia Courts in places like the UK where Muslims are a minority Sharia in Muslim majority countries is seldom benign. There are large majorities in places like Pakistan and Egypt for stoning people for adultery and apostasy.

I'm sure you'd love to gloss over the less contentious aspects of sharia. Suits your agenda.

How many people have been legally stoned in Pakistan for adultery or apostasy?

Answer: None.


How many people have been legally stoned in Egypt for adultery or apostasy?

Answer: None.

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

I'm sure you'd love to gloss over the less contentious aspects of sharia. Suits your agenda.
How many people have been legally stoned in Pakistan for adultery or apostasy?
Answer: None.
How many people have been legally stoned in Egypt for adultery or apostasy?
Answer: None.

Because they have had basically secular or Islam lite governments. These findings show extremists are far from a tiny minority.

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Because they have had basically secular or Islam lite governments. These findings show extremists are far from a tiny minority.

You seem to have difficulty in finding any actual reflection of these 'findings' in the actual laws of these Muslim majority states. It's as if the rhetoric far outweighs the reality on the ground. Surely not?

Palmach

alastair wrote: »

You seem to have difficulty in finding any actual reflection of these 'findings' in the actual laws of these Muslim majority states. It's as if the rhetoric far outweighs the reality on the ground. Surely not?

Facts are uncomfortable. Ignore facts. Now I am comfortable.

rozeboosje

Palmach wrote: »

Facts are uncomfortable. Ignore facts. Now I am comfortable.

Some people feel most comfortable in an atmosphere of unsubstantiated fear. It keeps their grip on power intact :-)

alastair

Palmach wrote: »

Facts are uncomfortable. Ignore facts. Now I am comfortable.

I'm presenting you with facts. You've preferred rhetoric, and been found wanting.

rozeboosje

Palmach wrote: »

secular or Islam lite

"No True Scotsman" fallacy

In fact there is a nice example of this in the following Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

"Farzana Hassan suggests another example of the fallacy: saying that Muslims would not commit the atrocities that [the Daesh Cutthroats] have carried out, and that they are therefore not "true Muslims"."

Before you gleefully point out that that example appears to play into your hand, it is equally invalid to state that since [the Daesh Cutthroats] claim to represent "true" Islam, that anybody who rejects [the Daesh Cutthroats] can't be "true Muslims", that they must therefore be "basically secular" or adhere to some form of "Islam Lite"

The fallacy is fallacious no matter what form it takes.

Black Swan

Palmach wrote: »

But hey if you are happy in you cappuccino liberal pc bubble far be it for me to allow reality to intrude.

alastair wrote: »

But then you reckon Wilders is not a racist, so critical thinking is clearly a challenge.

Palmach wrote: »

I can see I am dealing with a blinkered pc liberal who refuses to see reality. :mad:

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The charter clearly states not to get "too personal." Please focus on making meaningful contributions to the thread topic, and not each other.

nice_guy80

I thought most schools did a good job of including all children of different faiths and providing an opt out for religious reasons.

rozeboosje

I wouldn't particularly mind if somebody made a meaningful contribution to me ....

My bank account details are ...