DART Underground - Alternative Routes

strassenwo!f

GerardKeating wrote: »

I doubt it, I think this was more about getting a station in Spenser Dock, were CIE have a lot of prime development land, but maybe I an cynical.

But a lot of discussion is pointless now, your "direct" route cannot link to the "Northern" line easily anymore, since the Port Tunnel is in the way, so the loop around the green would be needed to get around this.

I don't really follow this.

The current plan for the DART underground project, (going from west to east) between Christchurch and Pearse, is that there would be a curve between Christchurch and St. Stephen's Green, then another curve to get to a north-south aligned station a Pearse, then there would be a major right turn and a pretty immediate curve to the left into the proposed station at Spencer Dock.

The proposed stops at Pearse and at St. Stephen's Green attenuate it a bit, but if you've ever been to Disneyland and experienced the Thunder Mountain Railroad, you've pretty much experienced what is proposed.

murphaph

You previously accepted the open squares and green spaces and playing fields located inside TCD were comparable to the green and now you dismiss them as incomparable. You're changing your argument. Just be honest....the more direct route "feels" right to you. That's fair enough....doesn't mean it's the right route. Dublin isn't London or Paris or Berlin by the way...all these distances are perfectly walkable.

In a post DU world the red line could realistically be closed between Heuston and Connolly and built the way it should have been built in a cut and cover tunnel, transforming the usefulness of the entire red line, which has premetro characteristics for much of its length. It's hobbled by that city centre section.

For this reason I favour pushing DU a bit away from the river, rather than, as you prefer, closely paralleling the red line. It's an equally valid opinion but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to believe it is the best possible solution.

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

You previously accepted the open squares and green spaces and playing fields located inside TCD were comparable to the green and now you dismiss them as incomparable. You're changing your argument. Just be honest....the more direct route "feels" right to you. That's fair enough....doesn't mean it's the right route. Dublin isn't London or Paris or Berlin by the way...all these distances are perfectly walkable.

As you said a while back on this thread, there must be 15 acres of green space in TCD, and I'm certainly not going to disagree. Most of it is, of course, down at the Pearse Station end. At the city end of the college there are fewer green spaces and more people working. There is nothing comparable to a 22-acre park right beside the station, as would happen if this line were to be built through St. Stephen's Green. My argument hasn't changed.

murphaph wrote: »

In a post DU world the red line could realistically be closed between Heuston and Connolly and built the way it should have been built in a cut and cover tunnel, transforming the usefulness of the entire red line, which has premetro characteristics for much of its length. It's hobbled by that city centre section.

I think you are absolutely right here.

I wrote a few pages back that there could be merit in building a road underpass between the South quay near Heuston and St. John's Road (beside Heuston), to allow the LUAS stretches along Steevens' lane and much of Benburb Street to carry more trams. For example, to add a Walkinstown - Broadstone line into the mix.

Your suggestion is a very good one.

More difficult to do, of course, if the interconnector is built so far away from the northside.

murphaph wrote: »

For this reason I favour pushing DU a bit away from the river, rather than, as you prefer, closely paralleling the red line. It's an equally valid opinion but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to believe it is the best possible solution.

I really don't think that we should be comparing the red line and the interconnector. The passenger volumes are worlds apart, and they serve different routes. It is most unfortunate that a potential use for the interconnector - a rail line along the Clondalkin - Tallaght corridor, with over 100,000 people - appears to have been squandered by poor planning.

I don't think it's arrogance to ask if the direct route has even been looked at. To date, we have absolutely no evidence that it has.

murphaph

OK but you a) have no evidence that alternatives weren't examined, b) you won't get any evidence from us as lay people and c) you haven't simply written to the powers that be to ask. Where precisely so you expect this discussion to go?

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

OK but you a) have no evidence that alternatives weren't examined, b) you won't get any evidence from us as lay people and c) you haven't simply written to the powers that be to ask. Where precisely so you expect this discussion to go?

Point a): you're quite right, the doesn't seem to be any evidence that it wasn't examined. There also doesn't appear to be any evidence that it was.

All we really have to go on is the presentation from Irish Rail to ABP in pursuit of the railway order, in which they said that they examined two options for this critical section, namely Tara St and St. Stephen's Green. As I pointed out to you above, given that Irish Rail said that one of the main flaws with Tara Street was that it wouldn't allow trains to also get to St. Stephen's Green, one has to reach the conclusion that Irish Rail were determined to build this line through St. Stephen's Green, hell or high water, hail, rain or shine.

If Irish Rail had looked at College Green, or anywhere in its vicinity, they would surely have mentioned it to ABP. Why would they examine it and then not mention to ABP that they had done so?

Point b): there is considerable expertise on this board. There have been a number of posters who said that College Green was looked at, but in the main they ended up calling me 'deluded', 'mentally deviant' or some such, and generally becoming so abusive that they ended up being banned from the board. It's hard to take the posts of such posters very seriously.

Point c): the Public Transport Infrastructure Division of the Department of Transport received a document from me in 2005, when I lived in Ireland, in which I outlined why they should look at College Green as a potential central city station, instead of just looking what was to become, a few months later, Martin Cullen's proposed 'Grand Central' at St. Stephen's Green. At the time, as you probably remember from your days in P11, all the stuff about the interconnector going through St. Stephen's Green was about the fact that it would 'enable interchange with the LUAS' at that location.

My belief then, as now, was that it was short-sighted to build a longer route for the interconnector to connect with the LUAS at St. Stephen's Green when it was pretty much inevitable that the LUAS would, in some shape or form, be extended northward, probably via College Green.

As, indeed, it now is.

Never heard from them. Not even a 'Could you come in and talk to us for 15 minutes about this?' They obviously get lots of weird ideas from people, but a suggestion which could save around 100 million euro and, as I believe, would directly serve more people, has got to be worth a paltry 15 minutes of their time.

That was 10 (ten) years ago. Nothing major has changed in that time and in that key area, in terms of worker density or in terms of potential use by the many other users of public transport, to change my view.

For a number of reasons, I now live and work outside Ireland and, as I said earlier in the thread, I thus don't think it would be appropriate for me to contact the various authorities to make suggestions about what they should do about transport in Dublin.

alias no.9

strassenwo!f wrote: »

but a suggestion which could save around 100 million euro and, as I believe, would directly serve more people

You keep repeating these two points but you cannot substantiate either.

GerardKeating

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I don't really follow this.

The current plan for the DART underground project, (going from west to east) between Christchurch and Pearse, is that there would be a curve between Christchurch and St. Stephen's Green, then another curve to get to a north-south aligned station a Pearse, then there would be a major right turn and a pretty immediate curve to the left into the proposed station at Spencer Dock.

The proposed stops at Pearse and at St. Stephen's Green attenuate it a bit, but if you've ever been to Disneyland and experienced the Thunder Mountain Railroad, you've pretty much experienced what is proposed.

Which part do you not follow, my "opinion" that the original reason for the loop via SSG was to get the line to pass Spenser Dock?

Or the comment that your "route" won't work anymore, since the DPT is now in the way.

And (as repeatedly stated) "your" direct route requires much tighter curves to get to the Northern Line, that the propose DU route.

murphaph

strassenwo!f wrote: »

For a number of reasons, I now live and work outside Ireland and, as I said earlier in the thread, I thus don't think it would be appropriate for me to contact the various authorities to make suggestions about what they should do about transport in Dublin.

So are you hoping that you can convince enough people in this thread to contact them on your behalf or what? I just don't see the point of going around in circles with you claiming one thing and more or less everyone else disagreeing with you and then it starts again.

I must also say that the notion of the Green being chosen solely to interchange with Luas is incorrect. It was clearly chosen as it provides a technically fairly optimal place to build a large underground interchange station where the routes cross at more or less 90°. I do not accept that the (IMO!!) immense extra cost of building the DU/MN interchange station at CG would be worth it, even if you believed that CG would in fact be a better place for this interchange.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Not really. There's nothing like a 22-acre park right beside the area.

The green area of St Stephen’s Green is ~9 ha. There is no "22-acre park" in central Dublin.

You are wrong once again!

I've looked in detail at the large green or water areas (ie the Liffey) both places -- there's only about 1.5 ha in the difference. Within the walls of TCD I did not count the squares, the TCD green areas alone nearly account for 6+ ha.

You keep on banging on about the jobs in TCD and how they would be served by a station at College Green, but the fact is that most of the jobs in TCD are serve by Pearse -- the new TCD building are over an entrance to Pearse so, it's actually better placed to serve TCD.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The immediate area around College Green is pretty dense – obviously much denser than at St. Stephen’s Green, because it doesn’t have a 22-acre park right beside it – and should be readily accessible from all sides.

No, the immediate area around College Green is not obviously much denser than at St Stephen’s Green.

In light of the evidence already posted, your unsupported claims are a gross fabrication. Stop your outright and downright lies.

I'll post it again: College Green's immediate area is mostly light red which is less dense than St Stephen’s Green's immediate area which is full red:



Yellow = College Green
Dark green = Dart Underground route
Blue = other Dart route
Lime = Luas green line
Red = Luas red line

Source: http://airo.maynoothuniversity.ie/ex...nt/travel2work

And in real terms, the area around TCD has a lower job population than the areas directly south of St Stephen’s Green:

strassenwo!f wrote: »

There are large green areas in TCD – one of which, the rugby pitch, might even be suitable for insertion of a TBM, if it is eventually decided to build the interconnector in two stages – but that’s all really more of a problem for the Pearse Station catchment.

Build the interconnector in two stages!?!? I don't think you are trolling but if you were it would be more forgivable.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

There’s been a couple of escalators built. This was, of course, done before Irish Rail even went to ABP, in anticipation that ABP would grant Irish Rail a railway order. Which ABP duly did.

Loads of work leading up to Dart Underground has been done in advance of the main works getting approval. The Kildare Route Project is a case in point. These projects have their own approval.

The point stands: The Pearse works do not suit your route.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The volume of the proposed interconnector is vast. Theoretically, up to over 100,000 passengers per hour. This would totally dwarf anything that the LUAS can manage.

I’m sorry Monument, I don’t buy it. Coming from Hazelhatch, those wanting to go to the south of the city get a 3-4 trip to a station beside a park in St. Stephen’s Green; those wanting to go to the north get to change onto a 10-12 LUAS trip into the city. Those coming from Kilbarrack face pretty much the same disparity. [/QUOTE]

Two points here:

(1) As I said: "Those northside areas are to be served by Luas red and green lines, and Dart and commuter at Tara, Connelly and Docklands". It's by far not just Luas, it's walking, two Luas routes, two Dart routes, many bus routes, DublinBikes, privite bikes etc. Switching lines or modes is a normal part of public transport in cities like Dublin and in larger ones.

(2) Shinjuku Station is the world's busiest transport hub and registered as such with Guinness World Records. It's beside Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden, it has Shinjuku central park to it's west and a larger park to its south. So, stop the nonsense about parks -- there's loads of very popular and successful transport hubs beside parks.

strassenwo!f

I'd love to respond to the above posts, but I must get on with preparation for the next week of work. See you guys next weekend, I hope.

monument

For most people this should be the end of the thread:

murphaph

That ends it for me anyway. Strassenwolf might justifiably argue that Christchurch Station could be moved, but Tara Street exhibits the most overlap with CG and obviously can't be moved, nor can Pearse. Pushing the DU station south to St. Stephen's Green wasn't just technically easier...it was clearly the right thing to do too! DU must be looked at in the context of the existing and planned network. Strassenwolf has failed to do that. Even when viewed in just the context of the existing DART network and ignoring that MN or Luas will serve CG very well anyway, it makes no sense to build a station at CG given the extent of the overlap with Tara Street, which always concerned me and which always made me believe that MN, if ever built, should actually interchange via underground travelator with Tara Street, rather than be two isolated stations.

monument

Please exclude the typos in the images! They were rushed in Photoshop... don't want to spend any more time on this thread.

BowWow

monument wrote:

The green area of St Stephen’s Green is ~9 ha. There is no "22-acre park" in central Dublin.

22 acres is equal to 8.9 hectares....

monument

BowWow wrote: »

22 acres is equal to 8.9 hectares....

My mistake! The quote was a copy and paste job and I misread it to be 'hectares' rather than acres.

Carawaystick

So 370+ posts in, no one thought of a tramline to near Dublin Airport as the answer ... :rolleyes:

L1011

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'd love to respond to the above posts, but I must get on with preparation for the next week of work. See you guys next weekend, I hope.

You always say this when new points are raised against you

Then come back weeks later parroting the same, comprehensively deconstructed and rubbished points you've used for years as of they're new and insightful.

strassenwo!f

I acknowledge that there is considerable disappointment on this board about the news this week about the DART Underground project. I share this disappointment. I also understand that the board's appetite for further discussion about this issue is probably very limited.

My posts on this issue were in the hope that the route could be tweaked a bit, now that the LUAS will no longer be stuck at St. Stephen's Green, in order for it to directly serve more people and to reduce the costs of the project.

I was in Gdansk last week, and travelled into the city along their
new City to Airport rail line, which opened this month. 20 minutes approximately to the city centre. I'm not sure if all Polish airports are yet connected directly by rail to the centres of their cities, but of the ones I've been in (Lublin, Krakow, Warsaw, Gdansk, Szczeczin), they all certainly are.

The idea of building a Luas to the airport and maybe Swords is frankly a poor decision.

monument wrote: »

My mistake! The quote was a copy and paste job and I misread it to be 'hectares' rather than acres.

Yes, as we know, you'll come up with some bull**** story about your phone not working properly.

monument wrote: »

The green area of St Stephen’s Green is ~9 ha. There is no "22-acre park" in central Dublin.You are wrong once again!

I think what you might have put in your apology post is an acknowledgement that strassenwolf was right, not wrong. Monument was wrong.

There is a 22-park right beside the proposed station at St. Stephen's Green.

We're all disappointed. We'll get back to the maps later.

murphaph

Nothing to get back to. Monument's overlap map shows quite clearly why a CG station instead of SSG would reduce overall catchment of the network in the CBD.

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

Nothing to get back to. Monument's overlap map shows quite clearly why a CG station instead of SSG would reduce overall catchment of the network in the CBD.

There is plenty to get back to.

You see this project as a way of getting people to this supposed 'CBD', but we're not really seeing the numbers to support the expensive detour which you support. An area around Hatch Street, which provides employment to around 600 more people than the centre of the city, but which has almost no footfall from anybody who's not working there?

I see the interconnector as a way of rapidly delivering people into the city.

We know Murphaph's views on the possibility of building spurs to the interconnector project, to properly serve other areas of West Dublin.

Murphaph's against it. 'Let them take the bus to their nearest station' is his policy. Apparently it's critical, for Murphaph, to build the line via St. Stephen's Green, for the extra 600 or so workers which it might suit, But it's not that important for people to even get rapidly into the city? Go figure.

murphaph

The tunnel is just part of a wider network which you are ignoring.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

we're not really seeing the numbers to support the expensive detour

:rolleyes:

honestly, i think you might be slightly autistic

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

:rolleyes:

honestly, i think you might be slightly autistic

I'm not denying that it's possible, though I've never been diagnosed with autism.

I can see that the corresponding line in Munich is pretty straight, along the stretch between Karlsplatz and Marienplatz - what is it, Kaufingerstrasse? - because that area is the city centre.

I know well that the corresponding line in Frankfurt is very signicantly curved. They could probably have built a direct underground line between the main station and the Sudbahnhof, but that would have missed the point, of bringing more people directly to the places they want to go.

In Frankfurt, they built their interconnector in several stages, an idea which was scoffed at above, for Dublin, by the poster Monument. It has the large curve because it was vital to bring people to the Zeil and the area around it, which is unquestionably the centre of their city.

(Also worth looking at Frankfurt for the large curves involved. No problem getting trains from Spencer Dock to an East-West station at Pearse).

While there was no need for a detour in Munich, the detour made considerable sense in Frankfurt.

Autism or not, I'm just not seeing the numbers to justify a detour in Dublin. So far, we all know that College Green is a much more central area in the city than St. Stephen's Green is (it's busy all the time, while St. Stephen's Green is not), and all we've really got to justify the detour is that the LUAS Green Line is at St. Stephen's Green.

For the moment that's the only part of the centre of the city where that is true. That's going to change in the next 18 months or so, and we can then get back to looking at the possibility of building a direct route for the interconnector.

The 'interconnectors' in Munich and Frankfurt took different styles of route for different reasons. Neither of them took their route because they were chasing after a connection with a feckin' tram line, which very much appears to be the case in Dublin.

D.L.R.

more regurgitation zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, how many times do you feel the need to make the same point to the same group of people?

I think i'll email paschal donohoe citing this thread as a reason to just build the bloody thing

murphaph

I think this thread has more than run its course. It's going round and round in circles.

strassenwo!f

Monument, I will get back to you on the maps.

Thanks for posting them, but now probably isn't the right time for discussion.

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

I think this thread has more than run its course. It's going round and round in circles.

Sorry, I wrote above that Munich and Frankfurt built different kinds of route for different reasons. I should have written that they built different kinds of route for basically the same reason: to deliver large numbers of people directly to the centre of their cities.

I think Dublin should do the same. The Germans have shown that they know about infrastructure - both of the cities mentioned above have quite tremendous public transport - and we should try to learn from them.

St. Stephen's Green has many great qualities, but it is not, by any measure, the centre of Dublin.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

St. Stephen's Green has many great qualities, but it is not, by any measure, the centre of Dublin.

Simply absurd.

BowWow

strassenwo!f wrote: »

St. Stephen's Green has many great qualities, but it is not, by any measure, the centre of Dublin.

Totally agree - to me the city centre is College Green, Westmoreland St, O'Connell Bridge and O'Connell St.

murphaph

To my mother Nelson's Pillar is the city centre.