DART Underground - Alternative Routes

D.L.R.

BowWow wrote: »

Totally agree - to me the city centre is College Green, Westmoreland St, O'Connell Bridge and O'Connell St.

You've just described the northern half of the city centre.

BowWow

D.L.R. wrote: »

You've just described the northern half of the city centre.

Simply absurd.

BowWow

D.L.R. wrote: »

<snip> Your knowledge of Dublin is poor.

That may well be your opinion.

Several of my Great-Grand parents were born and reared in Dublin in the mid nineteenth century. My Grandparents were born and reared in Dublin in the late nineteenth century. My parents were born and reared in Dublin before 1916. I was born and reared in Dublin. I worked all my life in Dublin. Not many people in Dublin can say this.
I retired some years ago having spent 30 plus years driving around the city for my work - I know the physical city well.

Its my opinion I know where the centre is, and its not SSG........

strassenwo!f

I'm sorry, I didn't grow up in D2. I grew up right along the canal, between Baggot Street and Leeson Street, in D4. D2 and D1 were my playground Nothing has really changed since then. I know the area well.











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strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

To my mother Nelson's Pillar is the city centre.

And I wouldn't say she's very far wrong.

We've been focussing in the last few pages of this thread on the numbers of workers who are in particular areas of the city, and that is obviously very important, but we haven't really anything yet to go on about the Dubliners (and others) who visit the centre of Dublin every day, and for all the reasons that they do.
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There would obviously be difficulties building a line between Heuston and Spencer Dock, via the Pillar(/Spire) and Pearse. But I'd doubt it's impossible.

St. Stephen's Green is obviously too remote from the real centre of the city. College Green seems like an area worth looking at, as a good compromise

Nichard Dixon

The Duke of Leinster said that when he built his house that this would become the centre of Dublin, and the Northside became a slum. There is no going back.

strassenwo!f

And the Duke is where, precisely?

Qualitymark

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And the Duke is where, precisely?

His house is our centre of government, on Kildare Street.

Cities change. Dublin is in a period of transition. Up to the 18th century it centred on Wood Quay (and in fact tourist maps still centre there, if you notice); in the 18th century the centre moved northwards to the great squares built in what was then the healthiest part of the city. Then, as the wide-spreading, slow, smelly, marshy, mosquito-ridden Liffey was first enclosed by quays and then made a speedy waterway by Captain Bligh's North Wall and South Wall, which scoured out a channel deep enough for shipping to move upriver, the rich started building south of the Liffey, for instance in Merrion Square, which had been a marsh flooded by the river before the quays were built. The Grand Canal in the 18th century and the Royal Canal in the 18th and 19th century provided boundaries for the city's suburbs… in the 19th century the great emporia known as the Monster Houses - department stores with huge staffs mostly of country men and women living over the shops - served a growing population. These shops ran from Mary Street, Henry Street and Earl Street along O'Connell Street into Westmoreland Street, D'Olier Street and into Dame Street, George's Street and Grafton Street; the smaller streets between continued to house craftworks such as leatherworkers (the Leatherworkers' Guild was where the Cornerstone pub is in Aungier Street - before the pub's gentrification you could still see the tanner's hide, symbol of the guild, on wooden plaques above the windows). Through all this the 'centre' moved, from Wood Quay and its environs (lawyers, for instance, practising in the street called Hell, in around the back of Christ Church), north to O'Connell Street, south to Grafton Street and so on.

I would personally imagine that if the de-gentrification of O'Connell Street and its surrounding streets continues to be encouraged by the Corpo, and especially if the planned supermall is built in behind O'Connell Street, draining custom from the surrounding streets as shoppers will drive in, buy in the English and American chain stores, have a snack in a multinational 'food' emporium and drive home, then the centre will most definitely move to Stephen's Green.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

St. Stephen's Green is obviously too remote from the real centre of the city.

Mmm, an entire street down from college green, awkwardly placed at the entrance of Dublin's busiest and most lucrative street.

Yeah mate, flippin outer mongolia.

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

Mmm, an entire street down from college green, awkwardly placed at the entrance of Dublin's busiest and most lucrative street.

Yeah mate, flippin outer mongolia.

By some measures Henry Street is Dublin's 'busiest and most lucrative street'.

I'm not sure what the latest figures are, but College Green lies pretty much halfway between Grafton Street and Henry Street, unquestionably the two most important streets for footfall in Dublin. Like the Zeil in Frankfurt or Kaufingerstrasse in Munich. Apart from all the workers in the area, there are also adjacent places like Temple Bar and many shops, offices, restaurants and other things in the vicinity which people are visiting all the time.

I'm really surprised that College Green was never even looked at, and from the information that Irish Rail provided to ABP it wasn't. Even though the LUAS wasn't actually there, as it soon will be, was it not possible that somebody in a Government department (or one of the offshoots, like the DTO) could have foreseen that it might be extended, and therefore that Irish Rail should look at the possibility? Apparently not.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm really surprised that College Green was never even looked at

They most likely did look at it privately, balk at the complexity and cost of a station there, and that was that. Pretty simple stuff.

strassenwo!f

Now I understand that Irish Rail don't have any experience of building underground, and in fact they don't really have any experience of building rail lines at all. They did rebuild the Western Rail Corridor along an old route, but what else?

We know they've had a couple of bridge collapses, thankfully with no loss of life, in the last few years, so I can well imagine that they wouldn't be supremely confident heading into an underground project.

But the complexity of building at College Green would surely pale into insignificance in comparison with, say, the station being built at Tottenham Court Road in London.

It's pretty clear that it should cost less, for the overall project, to build via a location which is north of St. Stephen's Green. You're possibly right that Irish Rail chickened out of even looking at a very central location like College Green, because of their recent poor engineering record, and maybe they should get somebody else in to build it.

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

They most likely did look at it privately, balk at the complexity and cost of a station there, and that was that. Pretty simple stuff.

And this is, of course, entirely supposition on your part. You are providing nothing to back up your claim that this happened.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And this is, of course, entirely supposition on your part. You are providing nothing to back up your claim that this happened.

Sure its my supposition. So what. Its safe to assume they thought about the point where the east-west line crosses the north-south line. Its therefore safe to assume they rejected non SSG options early on. That the public didn't even hear about them should tell you something about their unviability.

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its safe to assume they thought about the point where the east-west line crosses the north-south line.

At the time they were planning the East - West underground rail line, there wasn't a North - South tram line between St. Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street. The go-ahead for the link-up happened after Irish Rail went to ABP in pursuit of the railway order for the interconnector project.

We saw what went on in the boom in Ireland. I would always be very cautious about 'safe assumptions' with Irish planning.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

At the time they were planning the East - West underground rail line, there wasn't a North - South tram line between St. Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street. The go-ahead for the link-up happened after Irish Rail went to ABP in pursuit of the railway order for the interconnector project.

We saw what went on in the boom in Ireland. I would always be very cautious about 'safe assumptions' with Irish planning.

I'm not talking about the luas green line we ended up with, which in my opinion is a bargain basement version of what we really need. But some form of + shaped solution with an E-W and N-S component has been the basic plan for Dublin for nearly a century, so its not plausible DU was planned without reference to a projected N-S corridor of some sort.

Nichard Dixon

Surely Stephens Green was influenced by the green LUAS line and the possibility of another radial route through the tunnel and Drumcondra. The LUAS has been extended, but the character of the line south of SSG is potentially a high capacity one, while the street running northwards has a different character. Also SSG is good place to dig a big hole.

I'm not sure about engineering, not my thing, but SSG is solid ground while College Green is closer to landfill.

One further observation is that the quays provide the possibility of a bus corridor and there is already a LUAS on the Abbey St axis, so something further south makes sense.

Qualitymark

D.L.R. wrote: »

I'm not talking about the luas green line we ended up with, which in my opinion is a bargain basement version of what we really need. But some form of + shaped solution with an E-W and N-S component has been the basic plan for Dublin for nearly a century, so its not plausible DU was planned without reference to a projected N-S corridor of some sort.

The best solution for Dublin would be a shamrock-shaped line, looping south, west and north.

Carawaystick

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Now I understand that Irish Rail don't have any experience of building underground, and in fact they don't really have any experience of building rail lines at all. They did rebuild the Western Rail Corridor along an old route, but what else?

The line to Dunboyne, and Middleton

strassenwo!f wrote: »

maybe they should get somebody else in to build it.

I doubt it'll be line maintenance lads with picks and shovels digging. Probably Donegal lads tunnelling, like the M50 and Chunnel, even though there's no railways in Donegal...

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

I'm not talking about the luas green line we ended up with, which in my opinion is a bargain basement version of what we really need. But some form of + shaped solution with an E-W and N-S component has been the basic plan for Dublin for nearly a century, so its not plausible DU was planned without reference to a projected N-S corridor of some sort.

Back in the 1970s there was a plan for an interchange between N-S and E-W heavy rail lines in Temple Bar. That never happened.

Then the LUAS green line, which should have gone through the city to Ballymun, got stuck at St. Stephen's Green because it was considered 'too difficult' to build it through the centre of the city.

And that's when this whole nonsense about an interchange at St. Stephen's Green started. 700 or so metres south of where it was originally supposed to be.

You've also got to remember that St. Stephen's Green was very much the happening place in the city at the time, thanks mainly to the wonderful success story of Anglo-Irish Bank, several of whose directors were on public bodies like the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Wonderful planning.

Carawaystick

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Back in the 1970s there was a plan for an interchange between N-S and E-W heavy rail lines in Temple Bar. That never happened.

...

And that's when this whole nonsense about an interchange at St. Stephen's Green started. 700 or so metres south of where it was originally supposed to be.

Was there a tram line just north of the Liffey, linking Connolly and Heuston stations in the '70s?

It might make sense to spread the rail lines out a bit further than the length of Croke Park like they did in the old days...

Qualitymark

One of the first tram lines in Dublin was the Kenilworth line, out along Clanbrassil Street to Harold's Cross and Kenilworth Square. Its symbol (symbols were used for the convenience of people who couldn't read) was a white square.

alias no.9

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Back in the 1970s there was a plan for an interchange between N-S and E-W heavy rail lines in Temple Bar. That never happened.

Then the LUAS green line, which should have gone through the city to Ballymun, got stuck at St. Stephen's Green because it was considered 'too difficult' to build it through the centre of the city.

And that's when this whole nonsense about an interchange at St. Stephen's Green started. 700 or so metres south of where it was originally supposed to be.

You've also got to remember that St. Stephen's Green was very much the happening place in the city at the time, thanks mainly to the wonderful success story of Anglo-Irish Bank, several of whose directors were on public bodies like the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Wonderful planning.

The plan was for a Central Bus and Rail Station to help rejuvenate Temple Bar which was seen as a decrepit ****hole.

The station didn't happen, the catchment of a station in Temple Bar would overlap massively with the parallel Red Luas Line which didn't exist back then.

The 1970's proposal would not have served the docklands and would not have had uninterrupted passage to the northern line.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Then the LUAS green line, which should have gone through the city to Ballymun, got stuck at St. Stephen's Green because it was considered 'too difficult' to build it through the centre of the city.

And that's when this whole nonsense about an interchange at St. Stephen's Green started. 700 or so metres south of where it was originally supposed to be.

Nah, they knew the luas/metro would continue north at some point.

The whole green line/metro/bxd plan has been a complete shambles though, I'll give you that. But the idea of SSG as the main interchange is one of the positives to come out of it imo. Its a neat solution to several problems, which is rare enough in these parts.

Victor

It is against the boards.ie site rules to speculate on users identities. Several posts deleted.

If you have a problem, report the post.

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

The Duke of Leinster said that when he built his house that this would become the centre of Dublin, and the Northside became a slum. There is no going back.

Let's not get into the Northside-Southside thing.

Moderator

BowWow

Someone posted a while back that this thread had probably run its course - inclined to agree with them. Looks like next week will see any underground link in the short to medium term parked. No need for a thread on alternative routes when there wont even be any route...

We can then start a new thread on Dublin's need for an underground link and potential routes

Deja vu all over again...

Nichard Dixon

The more important thing is to get this built. I think the proposal is reasonable enough.

strassenwo!f

D.L.R. wrote: »

Nah, they knew the luas/metro would continue north at some point.

The DTO's 'Platform for Change' plan envisaged that there would be a metro line running north from St. Stephen's Green. It doesn't appear to have envisaged the LUAS Green line doing the same thing.

At the time that that document was produced, there was no metro in Dublin, or even anything approaching a properly developed plan for one.

The easiest thing to do, in real life (since there was no actual metro, or any very immediate prospect of one), was thus to make the interconnector fit in with the then state of the LUAS, i.e. quite firmly stuck at St. Stephen's Green. And then later work towards making the metro plans fit in with that. (i.e a metro - DART interchange at St. Stephen's Green as a way of fitting in with the DTO's earlier crayonism)

Obviously, if you're going to build a proper rail network in the city, akin to anything like those in the other cities we've talked about on this thread, you're probably going to have a North - South line of some sort directly linking locations along that key corridor between St. Stephen's Green and the Parnell Monument. And that link having an interchange with an East -West line.

It most certainly doesn't mean that that interchange needs to be at St. Stephen's Green.

While the poster Monument (who deserves a lot of credit for this) has very kindly sought out and produced figures for the number of workers in particular parts of the city - to which we will certainly get back to, hopefully shortly - it is critical to see figures for overall demand to get to each of the city areas discussed.

It's very important to see maps of areas of employment in the city. But the figures for other public transport demand, which sustains much of that employment, for example in restaurants, shops, government offices, universities, etc., are also very important for a line with a capacity such as this.

D.L.R. wrote: »

The whole green line/metro/bxd plan has been a complete shambles though, I'll give you that. But the idea of SSG as the main interchange is one of the positives to come out of it imo. Its a neat solution to several problems, which is rare enough in these parts.

Which problems are these?

strassenwo!f

I'll try and dig out an old article from the Irish Times on this issue from around 2002, sometime around October I think, which I hope illustrates my above point. It may take a few days, and I don't know what the situation with firewall is, but I'll do my best.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Which problems are these?

Building under College Green and Trinity, connecting to North Wall Quay, lack of rail penetration in the city.


As to the rest of your post, well I think you're missing the wood for the trees looking at the planning history timeline. But I'll say this.

In building an East-West line, it must cross the North-South line at some point, right? And in my opinion, an appropriately central location for this crossover could be anywhere between O'Connell Bridge down to Stephens Green. Its just a matter of finding the best spot in terms of logistical reality.

Any point along this line would be fine in theory, with limitless money, etc. They've chosen the Green because of the advantages above. If College Green had a large open space to build in maybe it would have happened there.

But ultimately, what matters is threading an East-West line through Dublin at some point between O'Connell Bridge and SSG. The exact location is less important than the E-W line actually happening somewhere.

I think your argument is theoretical-heavy, and ignores a lot of the realities and logistics of building a Crossrail-scale railway through central Dublin. It also ignores how small the city centre is. Its really not very far at all from CG to SSG, one street in fact.

Finally it ignores the fact that this is not Germany, its Ireland. I'd consider myself lucky to see any type of DU built with this country's terrible planning and delivery record, so I really don't see the value in splitting hairs over the route in this way. Just f****** build it.