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DART Underground - Alternative Routes
Comments
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Good post. There's not much of it I agree with, but I certainly sympathise with many of the sentiments behind it.0
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I do think it's worth reminding readers that after the DTO produced their crayon plan, in which they envisaged a big loop via St. Stephen's Green for their proposed heavy rail East-West line across the city, there was the idea to have the Lucan LUAS into College Green.
In other words, not only would Dublin have the existing LUAS red line travelling East - West along the route between Heuston and the O'Connell Bridge (N-S) axis, the city would get a heavy rail underground line and then another LUAS route between the proposed tunnel and the existing tram line!
All within around a kilometre, in total.
I know it's not Germany, but with that scenario above we are clearly not talking about proper planning.
It's also not Britain. But crossrail is being built across London, with its many historic buildings and a multitude of underground tunnels (including those carrying many thousands of people all the time). No big loop there.0 -
Accusing professionals of crayons when that's entirely your domain doesn't work0
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strassenwo!f wrote: »a big loop via St. Stephen's Green for their proposed heavy rail East-West line across the city, there was the idea to have the Lucan LUAS into College Green.
In other words, not only would Dublin have the existing LUAS red line travelling East - West along the route between Heuston and the O'Connell Bridge (N-S) axis, the city would get a heavy rail underground line and then another LUAS route between the proposed tunnel and the existing tram line!
All within around a kilometre, in total.
I know it's not Germany, but with that scenario above we are clearly not talking about proper planning.
It's also not Britain. But crossrail is being built across London, with its many historic buildings and a multitude of underground tunnels (including those carrying many thousands of people all the time). No big loop there.
Firstly regards Crossrail, if you look at the central section through the West End and City, you'll see they're utilising several parks for its construction such as Hanover Square and Finsbury Circus.
Where they aren't using parks, they've had to level several city blocks, such as on Davies Street just of Oxford St. Notably they've knocked several historic structures such as the Astoria theatre near Tottenham Court Rd. You can't build these things by simply digging a small hole at the side of the road. You need a large open area or two for excavation. Bond St and TCR stations are using 3 or 4 construction sites each. College Green would require at least one or two large open areas which just aren't available.
Also, Crossrail does have several bends, and DU's SSG bend is no more significant. I think your "big loop via SSG" argument is over egging the pudding somewhat. Its not really a big loop at all, its just a curve. The PPT tunnel line via Dromcondra - now that's a big loop because it orbits around the centre. DU goes thru the centre. Look at some of the tube lines in London, lots of bends. Not the major issue you're making it out to be at all.0 -
Another good and informative post.
Quite obviously, if you are doing any task, you will use whatever resources or facilities are reasonably to hand.
This is why the Crossrail project is using places like Finsbury Circus for access works and so on.
And also quite obviously, there are curves on the crossrail route through central London. You'd expect that on any line, underground or overground.
It is, of course, overall, pretty much a straight line between Liverpool Street and Paddington.
That is not what is proposed for Dublin. As you can see from Irish Rail's page on this project, the proposed interconnector is being built via a 'strategically located' station at St. Stephen's Green.
http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/dart-underground
In London, they're using green areas for access and other stuff, and there are occasional curves in the route for probably a host of reasons. In Dublin, the curve is an integral part of the project.
The task in Dublin is to build an underground line linking the East of the city with the West via the city centre. We unfortunately haven't yet seen any evidence that Irish Rail or anybody else had a serious look at a direct route to do that, because the LUAS was stuck at St. Stephen's Green, as I noted on the previous page.0 -
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strassenwo!f wrote: »Another good and informative post.
Quite obviously, if you are doing any task, you will use whatever resources or facilities are reasonably to hand.
This is why the Crossrail project is using places like Finsbury Circus for access works and so on.
And also quite obviously, there are curves on the crossrail route through central London. You'd expect that on any line, underground or overground.
It is, of course, overall, pretty much a straight line between Liverpool Street and Paddington.
That is not what is proposed for Dublin. As you can see from Irish Rail's page on this project, the proposed interconnector is being built via a 'strategically located' station at St. Stephen's Green.
http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/dart-underground
In London, they're using green areas for access and other stuff, and there are occasional curves in the route for probably a host of reasons. In Dublin, the curve is an integral part of the project.
The task in Dublin is to build an underground line linking the East of the city with the West via the city centre. We unfortunately haven't yet seen any evidence that Irish Rail or anybody else had a serious look at a direct route to do that, because the LUAS was stuck at St. Stephen's Green, as I noted on the previous page.
Thank you.
But sorry I don't really see any new or substantial points here in your reply.
1. Crossrail is not "pretty much" a straight line Paddington-Liverpool St. Try overlaying Crossrail and DU to scale and you'll see how the curve radii are much the same.
2. This paragraph
In London, they're using green areas for access and other stuff, and there are occasional curves in the route for probably a host of reasons. In Dublin, the curve is an integral part of the project.
really doesn't make any sense to me.
3. As with describing a "big loop", your language is also fluffy when you talk about a "direct route" between Heuston and the Northern Line. To me, DU is perfectly direct and a curved route is normal practice. You seem to be advocating a beeline which as I said before tends to overlook practical realities.0 -
strassenwo!f wrote: »Good post. There's not much of it I agree with, but I certainly sympathise with many of the sentiments behind it.
Another point you keep ignoring is that if DU goes via College Green, getting to the northern line would need a massive loop down towards the Point, to avoid The Dublin Port Tunnel.0 -
GerardKeating wrote: »Another point you keep ignoring is that if DU goes via College Green, getting to the northern line would need a massive loop down towards the Point, to avoid The Dublin Port Tunnel.
No, the line isn't going to the Point, it's going to Spencer Dock. And the Port tunnel doesn't come into it at all.
The curve to get from an East-West aligned station at Pearse to Spencer Dock is not bigger than the curve involved in getting from the proposed East-West aligned station at St. Stephen's Green to the proposed North-South aligned station at Pearse.0 -
1. Crossrail is not "pretty much" a straight line Paddington-Liverpool St. Try overlaying Crossrail and DU to scale and you'll see how the curve radii are much the same.
But it is pretty much a straight route, isn't it?
The task in London was to build an underground line linking Liverpool Street and Paddington. And the route chosen was one which goes via Farringdon, Tottenham Court Road and a number of other places along the way.
There's no major detour to Euston or King's Cross, or to Victoria or the Strand. It's pretty straight between Liverpool Street and Paddington.2. This paragraph
In London, they're using green areas for access and other stuff, and there are occasional curves in the route for probably a host of reasons. In Dublin, the curve is an integral part of the project.
really doesn't make any sense to me.
I think the only way I can possibly help you to make sense of this is to make a distinction between 'minor curves' and 'curves', ie between curves which are necessary for construction and curves which are an integral part of the route.
In Munich, there's no curve, though there may be some 'minor curves'. In Frankfurt there's a curve, for a particular reason, probably with some 'minor curves' on the route. In London's crossrail project there's no curve, though there are undoubtedly 'minor curves' along the way.
In Dublin there is proposed to be a curve, in order to build via St. Stephen's Green. I'm not convinced that this curve is necessary.3. As with describing a "big loop", your language is also fluffy when you talk about a "direct route" between Heuston and the Northern Line. To me, DU is perfectly direct and a curved route is normal practice. You seem to be advocating a beeline which as I said before tends to overlook practical realities.
A curved route is built if it is necessary, and better. As I mentioned above, they built a very significantly curved route in Frankfurt, because it was considerably better than a direct route between the start and end points would have been.
In Munich they didn't, and in London they're not.
And I am advocating pretty much a beelinebetween the start and end points, Heuston and Spencer Dock. No evidence yet that the curve in Dublin is better than a direct route, although it would probably be more expensive and certainly directly serve fewer passengers, and no evidence yet that the direct route has even been looked at.0 -
For readers who aren't very familiar with the crossrail project, you can see maps at this page:
No significant curve in the key area between Paddington and Liverpool Street.0 -
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For readers who aren't very familiar with the overall Crossrail projects, you can see map of the second route at this page:
Very significant curves in the key area central London areas, including one curve near the river which is like the Dart Underground curve, and a bend around Euston which makes the Dart Underground curve look like nothing.0 -
Indeed there are curves, Monument.
You have curves if they are necessary and/or if they make the project better, and obviously with Crossrail 2, the planners have deemed that the curves achieve one or other, or both, of those objectives.
At the moment, all we know in Dublin is that the major curve on the proposed line is to enable integration with the LUAS at St. Stephen's Green. In all the years I haven't seen a single document related to the DART Underground project which doesn't mention the fact that the route via St. Stephen's Green enables a connection with the LUAS green line at that location.
But the LUAS will shortly no longer be stuck at St. Stephen's Green. It's going to be going through College Green soon, and we should have evidence that the possibility of the proposed underground line connecting with it there, or somewhere in the vicinity, to eliminate the expensive curve, has been looked at.
We currently have no such evidence.0 -
strassenwo!f wrote: »No, the line isn't going to the Point, it's going to Spencer Dock. And the Port tunnel doesn't come into it at all.The curve to get from an East-West aligned station at Pearse to Spencer Dock is not bigger than the curve involved in getting from the proposed East-West aligned station at St. Stephen's Green to the proposed North-South aligned station at Pearse.
But the Station Box at Pearse is already Built, and facing the wrong way a line from College Green.
but you are not saying that either options needs a curve, so what's the option?0 -
GerardKeating wrote: »But the Station Box at Pearse is already Built, and facing the wrong way a line from College Green.
but you are not saying that either options needs a curve, so what's the option?
It's certainly news to me that they have built a station box at Pearse.
I mean, I was aware that they had built a large part of a station box at the Mater Hospital which, with the prospects for Metro North, appears to be yet another chunk of money down the toilet.0 -
This is pure fabrication. It is at most your opinion. Don't state your opinions as fact please.strassenwo!f wrote: »At the moment, all we know in Dublin is that the major curve on the proposed line is to enable integration with the LUAS at St. Stephen's Green.
My opinion (and that of most other posters here ) is that SSG was chosen for largely logistical reasons: Building a large interchange station where 2 routes are due to cross at almost 90° requires space. CG doesn't offer the space to build 2 station boxes at roughly right angles stacked on top of each other. There may well be other geological reasons why CG was not chosen...it was former marsh land and we know TCD's foundations are shallow at best.
SSG is nevertheless actually a sound location for the station. CG would mean far too much overlap with Tara Street's catchment area, as monument highlighted for us.0 -
And you have readily admitted that you've never asked anyone for it.strassenwo!f wrote: »We currently have no such evidence.0 -
This is pure fabrication. It is at most your opinion. Don't state your opinions as fact please.
As far as I am aware, there hasn't been a single official document produced which doesn't mention the fact that the interconnector route going via St. Stephen's Green allows interchange with the LUAS. If you can find one, please share it with us. Until now, no other route would allow that to be said. No fabrication.My opinion (and that of most other posters here ) is that SSG was chosen for largely logistical reasons: Building a large interchange station where 2 routes are due to cross at almost 90° requires space. CG doesn't offer the space to build 2 station boxes at roughly right angles stacked on top of each other. There may well be other geological reasons why CG was not chosen...it was former marsh land and we know TCD's foundations are shallow at best.
As I have said many times, St. Stephen's Green has space and it would be easy to build there. But it would almost certainly necessitate causing considerable damage to a much-loved park.
College Green also has space, as it's currently a six-lane highway right in the centre of the city. Construction of an interchange there could maybe be very positive for Dubliners, with the possibility of creating a central pedestrianised area in the city.SSG is nevertheless actually a sound location for the station. CG would mean far too much overlap with Tara Street's catchment area, as monument highlighted for us.
The interconnector is the highest capacity line which will ever be built in Ireland. Whatever's happening in Tara Street is pretty much irrelevant to the choice of route.0 -
Two different things. You're saying that because any documentation that you have seen mentions Luas, that Luas is the reason for going to SSG. You can't do that and be credible.strassenwo!f wrote: »As far as I am aware, there hasn't been a single official document produced which doesn't mention the fact that the interconnector route going via St. Stephen's Green allows interchange with the LUAS. If you can find one, please share it with us. Until now, no other route would allow that to be said. No fabrication.
Of course it will cause damage, No matter where you build you'll be damaging something. CG also has a load of trees that would need to be felled if your plan became reality. It's always sad to fell healthy trees, but it's unavoidable.strassenwo!f wrote: »As I have said many times, St. Stephen's Green has space and it would be easy to build there. But it would almost certainly necessitate causing considerable damage to a much-loved park.
Space for 2 stations for lines crossing at right angles? You seem to want to build an underground station to create a pedestrianised plaza above ground. You've mentioned this many times now. You do realise you can pedestrianise CG without building a station under it?strassenwo!f wrote: »College Green also has space, as it's currently a six-lane highway right in the centre of the city. Construction of an interchange there could maybe be very positive for Dubliners, with the possibility of creating a central pedestrianised area in the city.
This is by far your biggest error. Tara St will be a major station on the network, a stone's throw from what you consider the dead centre of the city. You are totally ignoring the network in your posts.You appear more to want a grand station and public space than a functioning network that serves regular commuters (you constantly down play the importance of serving office workers in favour of serving shoppers and those going in to town for an evening, but theses are not the people the network should focus on at all as they are least time sensitive. Those travelling on the network daily should always be the priority.)strassenwo!f wrote: »The interconnector is the highest capacity line which will ever be built in Ireland. Whatever's happening in Tara Street is pretty much irrelevant to the choice of route.0 -
Good post Murphaph.
Much as I'd like to, I can't get back to you now, as I'm preparing for the week's work. I'll talk to you next weekend.0 -
The only thing I have time to say about Tara Street is that the Dublin Transportation Office's ridiculous PFC document included nothing about integration with bus, LUAS or anything else at that location.
Yet it's the highest volume station on the current network0 -
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strassenwo!f wrote: »But it (Crossrail) is pretty much a straight route, isn't it?
No more so than DU. Crossrail has 4 or 5 comparable major curves. If you want to get out a protractor be my guest...strassenwo!f wrote: »The task in London was to build an underground line linking Liverpool Street and Paddington. And the route chosen was one which goes via Farringdon, Tottenham Court Road and a number of other places along the way.
There's no major detour to Euston or King's Cross, or to Victoria or the Strand. It's pretty straight between Liverpool Street and Paddington.
DU makes no such detour. Euston/KX are well over a mile from the centre.
SSG is merely a short walk from CG. Much like the walk from TCR to Piccadilly Circus/Leicester Square/Trafalgar Square/Covent Garden.strassenwo!f wrote: »I think the only way I can possibly help you to make sense of this is to make a distinction between 'minor curves' and 'curves', ie between curves which are necessary for construction and curves which are an integral part of the route.
In Munich, there's no curve, though there may be some 'minor curves'. In Frankfurt there's a curve, for a particular reason, probably with some 'minor curves' on the route. In London's crossrail project there's no curve, though there are undoubtedly 'minor curves' along the way.
In Dublin there is proposed to be a curve, in order to build via St. Stephen's Green. I'm not convinced that this curve is necessary.
A curved route is built if it is necessary, and better. As I mentioned above, they built a very significantly curved route in Frankfurt, because it was considerably better than a direct route between the start and end points would have been.
In Munich they didn't, and in London they're not.
Just treading over the same ground here. Measure the crossrail curves and get back to me. And try to be less patronising, for your own sake.strassenwo!f wrote: »And I am advocating pretty much a beelinebetween the start and end points, Heuston and Spencer Dock. No evidence yet that the curve in Dublin is better than a direct route, although it would probably be more expensive and certainly directly serve fewer passengers, and no evidence yet that the direct route has even been looked at.
There's even less evidence of your claims regarding cost or pax served, as many have pointed out.
So it seems what we have here is a Mexican Standoff, and the natural end of this debate.0 -
I'm not against the idea of sending DU along a more direct route via Tara Street. But Tara Street should clearly be the interchange station. It seems right now that DU has been indefinitely delayed, and the government insists on going ahead with an airport link. I would be in favour of the optimized MN proposal, but after the O'Connell Street stop, swerving towards Tara Street. This has the benefit of linking the airport link to the DART for the years until DU eventually gets built. Then build DU with stops in the Liberties, College Green and Tara Street. There's going to be a development at Tara Street soon, and you could stick the boxes in while that's going on.0
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As I said a couple of pages above, there is probably almost no desire on the board to read about alternatives to a project which has just been scrapped. I must assure the board that I am also very disappointed that this project is not going to happen. The whole idea made considerable sense to me, even if I felt that the actual implementation of it could have been improved.
Quite apart from linking up all the current rail-based transport in the city and increasing the number of DART users very significantly, it would also have ensured that any future North-South LUAS or metro lines ever to be built in central Dublin would have the possibility to interchange with a major East-West rail line, pretty much no matter what route it takes.
While regular readers of this thread will be aware that I'm not convinced that all the options were properly looked at, I'm pretty sure that the overall DART Underground idea is right for Dublin. It really makes a lot of sense for the future development of the city. I'm also disappointed that it's not going ahead.
I said on Sunday I'd get back and reply to a couple of posts, and I've now got some time to do so. Not a huge amount of point, I know, but here goes.Two different things. You're saying that because any documentation that you have seen mentions Luas, that Luas is the reason for going to SSG. You can't do that and be credible.
They all mentioned that the route via St. Stephen's Green would enable interchange with the LUAS Green line. There was nowhere else in the city where that would have been true (apart from maybe a route via the Harcourt Centre), and no other reason given for the route going via St. Stephen's Green.
Show me one which does show some other reason.Of course it will cause damage, No matter where you build you'll be damaging something. CG also has a load of trees that would need to be felled if your plan became reality. It's always sad to fell healthy trees, but it's unavoidable.
The trees in College Green do not enhance that public space at all. If anything, they obscure the views of the magnificent buildings at that location. Nobody would shed a tear if they were removed. If necessary, dig them up and put them in some place where they can continue to grow, like St. Anne's Park, the Phoenix Park, or even St. Stephen's Green itself.
In St. Stephen's Green, the trees make the environment fantastic.Space for 2 stations for lines crossing at right angles? You seem to want to build an underground station to create a pedestrianised plaza above ground. You've mentioned this many times now. You do realise you can pedestrianise CG without building a station under it?
They don't necessarily need to be at right angles, and in the diagram I showed earlier in the thread they wouldn't be.
It is important to know that it would be possible to build an underground interchange at College Green, and we don't yet know that it is, because it doesn't ever appear to have been looked at.
However, I do certainly realise you could pedestrianise College Green without building an underground station there, but it hasn't been done yet. And it could be possible to build an underground station there without pedestrianising it.
I think it could be a very good idea to combine the two.
At the moment, College Green is a major public transport location, not pedestrianised. I think it could be a good idea to look at a direct route for the DART Underground project to give us College Green as a major public transport location, pedestrianised.This is by far your biggest error. Tara St will be a major station on the network, a stone's throw from what you consider the dead centre of the city. You are totally ignoring the network in your posts.You appear more to want a grand station and public space than a functioning network that serves regular commuters (you constantly down play the importance of serving office workers in favour of serving shoppers and those going in to town for an evening, but theses are not the people the network should focus on at all as they are least time sensitive. Those travelling on the network daily should always be the priority.)
Of course Tara Street will be a major station, as it now is. On a different line to the highest capacity line ever to be built in Ireland, as the DART Underground was supposed to be. Tara Street's location relative to such a monster line is, in my view, irrelevant.
We will have to get back to the maps posted above to deal with your other points, but my initial comment would be that I'm not downplaying the role of office workers, which one would obviously be stupid to do in a capital city.
But we can say that it is also necessary to marry these demands off with the other reasons why people use public transport to come into the city, and at the moment I'm seeing a red area (around Hatch Street) on those maps, with pretty much no footfall from anybody who's not actually working there, versus an area around College Green - which, admittedly, has around 600 fewer workers - with colossal footfall from potential DART Underground passengers.0 -
Obviously the DART Underground project is now off the table until the 2020s. There now seem to be plans to electrify the line between Heuston and Hazelhatch.
I think it might be sensible to use the intervening years to build spurs from this line to places in West Dublin which are not currently served by rail, and are not particularly well served by the bus. At least then you can get people who live in those suburbs directly in as far as Heuston.
Even up as far as the Maynooth line, possibly, and certainly along the Clondalkin and Tallaght corridor - 100,000 potential passengers right there. This is what cities like Munich and Frankfurt did, so that when their city tunnels opened they were able to provide a line which was using much of its capacity and giving a vastly improved public transport to many of their citizens.
I have to say I've never understood the poster Murphaph's views on this. He's not indifferent to the idea of spurs, and nor does he say that he's never thought about it. He's actually against it, and has said so a number of times on this board.
My feeling is that there could well be direct demand for 4 trains per hour along the Hazelhatch route, maybe 6 or even 8. It's doubtful that there would be more.
But the tunnel has capacity for much more, perhaps even 24-30 trains per hour eventually, and it is currently proposed that a lot of East to West services will terminate at Heuston.
Why not extend these terminating services to serve other areas of West Dublin directly.
I really can't see why anyone would be against such an idea.0 -
I'm out of this pointless wandering thread. It sums up the talk, talk, talk attitude that has resulted in nothing being built. There was a good solid plan on the table with planning permission and shovel ready and that's been canned. None of the wild fantasies in this thread have s hope in hell.0
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Murphaph, I understand why you want to get away from this thread, or the other thread, or even from boards.ie entirely. Very understandable. I do too.
But, before you go, could you possibly take some time to give a reason to explain why you are actually against spurs from the Hazelhatch line to serve other areas of West Dublin, as you've said a number of times. You're not indifferent, you're not saying that it's something you don't know about, you're actually against this idea. Could you tell us more?0 -
Monument, apologies for my earlier comment. Absolutely uncalled for.0
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strassenwo!f wrote: »Murphaph, I understand why you want to get away from this thread, or the other thread, or even from boards.ie entirely. Very understandable. I do too.
But, before you go, could you possibly take some time to give a reason to explain why you are actually against spurs from the Hazelhatch line to serve other areas of West Dublin, as you've said a number of times. You're not indifferent, you're not saying that it's something you don't know about, you're actually against this idea. Could you tell us more?
Not sure you could have an overground spur to tallaght that split from the mainline anywhere east of the ghost station in Clonburris, taking a circuitous route west of the Pfizer plant in Grange Castle, potentially serving city west but still through a lot of nothingness until it meets the impenetrable mess that is Tallaght at either Jobstown or Cookstown. Tunnelling would be inevitable to serve existing population centres and we've plenty of green fields served by rail as it is.0 -
Does anyone know why the dart underground is two seperate tunnels vs one tunnel with lines running both directions for metro north, im guessing it is something to do with the size of the trains or a safety issue with running trains side by side??0
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Does anyone know why the dart underground is two seperate tunnels vs one tunnel with lines running both directions for metro north, im guessing it is something to do with the size of the trains or a safety issue with running trains side by side??
Both DART Underground and Metro North are planned as twin tunnels. Tunnels are smaller and probably safer than single two-way tunnel. That said all existing tunnels, incl Phoenix Park and Cork, are two way single tunnels but they are legacy structures.0
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