DART Underground - Alternative Routes

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 7:28am

The original interconnector plan was for it to be built via St. Stephen's Green so that it could interchange with the LUAS. But I was in Dublin last week for Christmas, and there were a few places around the city where you could see work on the LUAS link-up, so it won't be necessary to have the big St. Stephen's Green loop in a couple of years. You could just have a cheaper, more direct route, serving more people.

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 9:29am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The original interconnector plan was for it to be built via St. Stephen's Green so that it could interchange with the LUAS. But I was in Dublin last week for Christmas, and there were a few places around the city where you could see work on the LUAS link-up, so it won't be necessary to have the big St. Stephen's Green loop in a couple of years. You could just have a cheaper, more direct route, serving more people.

This is entirely incorrect. It has been pointed out to you several times and for whatever reason you've ignored it but DU was NOT routed via SSG to link up with the Luas.
It was routed there because of the absolute certainty that planning permission for a station at College Green was unobtainable. Trinity College stated that they would oppose it to the bitter end.
There are a plethora of other issues but the clinching factor was the acceptance that PP was impossible.

You could actually have this confirmed in 5 minutes of you made a call to the DU planning team at IR, even the office cat is aware of this.
I doubt you'll do that though as it would make clear the unmitigated fantasy of your obsession with this issue.

murphaph · 03-01-2015 12:22pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You could just have a cheaper, more direct route

Ok. Now I know you're trolling. You admit that CG would be much more disruptive and much more expensive than SSG but maintain that it would be cheaper because the tunnel is a couple of hundred metres shorter.

alias no.9 · 03-01-2015 12:44pm

murphaph wrote: »

Ok. Now I know you're trolling. You admit that CG would be much more disruptive and much more expensive than SSG but maintain that it would be cheaper because the tunnel is a couple of hundred metres shorter.

Clearly the monetary costs of such massive disruption would be trivial or at least should be entirely ignored on the basis that they may be inconvenient.
I'm starting to think that the only real agenda for pursuing such a ludicrous objective would be to have nothing built at all, why else would you pursue the unbuildable? Why or who would want the interconnector project enter an infinite loop of torture?

L1011 · 03-01-2015 12:57pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You could just have a cheaper, more direct route, serving more people.

Unproven (after a number of years of circular arguments, fantasyland numbers and crayons on maps, at this stage) assertion alert!

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 2:37pm

murphaph wrote: »

Ok. Now I know you're trolling. You admit that CG would be much more disruptive and much more expensive than SSG but maintain that it would be cheaper because the tunnel is a couple of hundred metres shorter.

A route via St. Stephen's Green to meet up with the LUAS would be several hundred metres longer, not a couple. Probably costing at least 100 million euro more than a direct route without the loop, based on the figures we have.

A route via College Green should obviously be cheaper, because the route would be shorter, but construction of a station there should be more expensive than building at St. Stephen's Green, because there'd be disruption and you wouldn't be building beside a park.

That would eat a bit into the savings you'd make by building a shorter route, but driving a few piles into the ground to protect important buildings isn't going to cost an extra 100 million euro.

And, as discussed above, it would directly serve more people.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 2:54pm

mohammadbyrne wrote: »

This is entirely incorrect. It has been pointed out to you several times and for whatever reason you've ignored it but DU was NOT routed via SSG to link up with the Luas.
It was routed there because of the absolute certainty that planning permission for a station at College Green was unobtainable. Trinity College stated that they would oppose it to the bitter end.
There are a plethora of other issues but the clinching factor was the acceptance that PP was impossible.

You could actually have this confirmed in 5 minutes of you made a call to the DU planning team at IR, even the office cat is aware of this.
I doubt you'll do that though as it would make clear the unmitigated fantasy of your obsession with this issue.

Welcome to the board, Mohammed.

You'll need to provide some further information about TCD's objections to the interconnector. We know that TCD objected strongly to the metro, as it would have gone under buildings with deep basements, wine cellars, and such. As far as I'm aware they have made no statement about the interconnector.

We do know, from their presentation to An Bord Pleanala in their successful pursuit of a railway order for the interconnector, that Iarnrod Eireann looked at just two routes for the line.

One was the currently proposed route, via St. Stephen's Green. The other was a route via Tara Street, but one of the main problems there was that such a route would not be able to go via St. Stephen's Green! (Apparently IE considered it a disadvantage not being able to build the route via a station beside a 22-acre park with no commuters, in the centre of the city).

As far as we are aware from IE's presentation to ABP, they never even looked at College Green.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 4:00pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

Clearly the monetary costs of such massive disruption would be trivial or at least should be entirely ignored on the basis that they may be inconvenient.
I'm starting to think that the only real agenda for pursuing such a ludicrous objective would be to have nothing built at all, why else would you pursue the unbuildable? Why or who would want the interconnector project enter an infinite loop of torture?

I certainly want to see the interconnector built, and I think its construction would be a wonderful basis for creating a unified city with a proper transport system. It becomes clearer to me evey time I visit Dublin (my home town) that the city is a mess, with growing disparity between the east of the city (along the DART line) and the west (broadly surviving on buses into the city). I think the interconnector, if developed properly, with at least a couple of spurs to the north or south of the Hazelhatch route, could be the key to reducing that disparity and creating a pretty unified city. I absolutely want to see this thing built.

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 4:18pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Welcome to the board, Mohammed.

You'll need to provide some further information about TCD's objections to the interconnector. We know that TCD objected strongly to the metro, as it would have gone under buildings with deep basements, wine cellars, and such. As far as I'm aware they have made no statement about the interconnector.

We do know, from their presentation to An Bord Pleanala in their successful pursuit of a railway order for the interconnector, that Iarnrod Eireann looked at just two routes for the line.

One was the currently proposed route, via St. Stephen's Green. The other was a route via Tara Street, but one of the main problems there was that such a route would not be able to go via St. Stephen's Green! (Apparently IE considered it a disadvantage not being able to build the route via a station beside a 22-acre park with no commuters, in the centre of the city).

As far as we are aware from IE's presentation to ABP, they never even looked at College Green.

Utter delusional nonsense.
You were given the correct information. Phone IR and check if you want.
No ifs or buts.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 4:27pm

If they had looked at College Green, why would they not have explained that to ABP, along with their reasons for rejecting it?

murphaph · 03-01-2015 4:44pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

That would eat a bit into the savings you'd make by building a shorter route, but driving a few piles into the ground to protect important buildings isn't going to cost an extra 100 million euro.

Hmmm...ok now I'm starting to realise that you really don't see how much more technically challenging and expensive CG would be. It's not about "a few piles" it's the fact that the station boxes would be too large to excavate using cut and cover. The stations would need to be mined from inside the tunnel created by the TBM. Do you understand the difference now?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And, as discussed above, it would directly serve more people.

Not proven by any stretch of the imagination.

L1011 · 03-01-2015 6:01pm

mohammadbyrne wrote: »

Utter delusional nonsense.
You were given the correct information. Phone IR and check if you want.
No ifs or buts.

Strassenwolf doesn't think its his place, as someone outside the country, to phone the people who actually make decisions.

He does, however, think its his place to keep pushing quixotic nonsense about re-routing something he'll never use or pay for, though.

L1011 · 03-01-2015 6:02pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Probably costing at least 100 million euro more than a direct route without the loop, based on the figures we have.

Unproven assertion alert!

strassenwo!f wrote: »

A route via College Green should obviously be cheaper

Unproven assertion alert!

strassenwo!f wrote: »

That would eat a bit into the savings you'd make by building a shorter route, but driving a few piles into the ground to protect important buildings isn't going to cost an extra 100 million euro.

Unproven assertion alert!

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And, as discussed above, it would directly serve more people.

Unproven assertion alert!

Every time you've even tried to prove a single one of your assertions, you've failed - terribly. You can't keep stating them as fact.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 6:31pm

I'm going to try to deal with these questions in order. Firstly, could someone provide an answer to the question I posed above to Mohammad?

If Iarnrod Eireann looked at College Green as a possible interchange location, why did they not explain this to An Bord Pleanala, along with their reasons for rejecting it?

It is, after all, a 2 billion euro project, and you'd like to think that all the options have been examined properly.

Can we deal with that first?

L1011 · 03-01-2015 6:46pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

If Iarnrod Eireann looked at College Green as a possible interchange location, why did they not explain this to An Bord Pleanala, along with their reasons for rejecting it?

Because they weren't asked to, as they weren't applying for College Green. ABP weren't going to ask them why they rejected every other plot of land in D2 either.

Now, on to your unproven assertions - lets settle the lot of them, before you try using them as fact again.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 7:04pm

I was in Dublin over Christmas, and on New Year's Eve they were setting up a stage in a very large, central space in Dublin for a concert that night. A space which Iarnrod Eireann apparently examined as a possible location for a DART-metro interchange, but then unfortunately forgot to mention to ABP.

Aard · 03-01-2015 7:08pm

It wasn't ABP's business. That's not how the appeals board works.

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 7:16pm

Well master Strassenwolf why not give IR a call and get your answer from the horse's mouth?

L1011 · 03-01-2015 7:16pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I was in Dublin over Christmas, and on New Year's Eve they were setting up a stage in a very large, central space in Dublin for a concert that night. A space which Iarnrod Eireann apparently examined as a possible location for a DART-metro interchange, but then unfortunately forgot to mention to ABP.

You still haven't got a single clue what ABPs role is, do you?

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 7:21pm

L1011 wrote: »

Because they weren't asked to, as they weren't applying for College Green. ABP weren't going to ask them why they rejected every other plot of land in D2 either.

Now, on to your unproven assertions - lets settle the lot of them, before you try using them as fact again.

It's a 2 billion euro project. Comfortably the largest outlay of cash which the Irish State has ever made on an infrastructure project. As you rightly say, they weren't applying for College Green. But had they looked at all the options? The submission to An Bord Pleanala suggests that they only looked at two. Did they look at that large, central area which is College Green? The evidence so far is that they didn't.

L1011 · 03-01-2015 7:25pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It's a 2 billion euro project. Comfortably the largest outlay of cash which the Irish State has ever made. As you rightly say, they weren't applying for College Green. But had they looked at all the options? The submission to An Bord Pleanala suggests that they only looked at two. Did they look at that large, central area which is College Green? The evidence so far is that they didn't.

Go ask them.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 7:30pm

Sorry L1011, I edited my post to add a couple of words while you were writing your post.

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 7:38pm

It appears to me that Strassenwolf's main tactic is to ignore the many sensible questions that defy his theories and attempt to unearth tangential but irrelevant questions as a smokescreen to further avoid addressing them.
This inability to face reality is very very apparent to the casual observer and actually makes him look shockingly ridiculous.
Arguments are won with sensible and convincing logic and when that is compelling even the sceptic will appreciate it.
He cossets himself with the cheap justification of the psuedo martyr that the genius is misunderstood by conventional opinion.

But, there hasn't been a crank born who doesn't take refuge in this standpoint.

Cases were the genius IS misunderstood CAN happen, but, they are so rare one can virtually discount them and that is CERTAINLY not the case here. There's no mystery or complex Stockholm syndrome or bizarre conspiracy about this issue. IR saw clearly that PP would not be forthcoming for a station at CG and made their decisions accordingly.
Strassenwolf's thesis is ridiculous, inflated, and fundamentally the product of some mental deviance on his part rather than some cogent insight into the decisions made about the route of this project.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 7:45pm

L1011 wrote: »

Go ask them.

No need.

I'm working on the basis of their submission to An Bord Pleanala in pursuit of a railway order for the Dart Underground project.

Iarnrod Eireann looked at two possible routes. One via St. Stephen's Green, which was approved. The other via Tara Street, which wasn't.

On the basis of the information we have, College Green has never been examined as a possible interchange location.

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 7:55pm

If you asked them you'd find out they did consider it. They considered it exhaustively. I know because I've spoken to them.
But equally you'd be left with the reality that you've constructed and perpetuated a himalayan fantasy of complex irrational arguments that would be pretty hard for any normal person to face in themselves.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 7:57pm

mohammadbyrne wrote: »

It appears to me that Strassenwolf's main tactic is to ignore the many sensible questions that defy his theories and attempt to unearth tangential but irrelevant questions as a smokescreen to further avoid addressing them.
This inability to face reality is very very apparent to the casual observer and actually makes him look shockingly ridiculous.
Arguments are won with sensible and convincing logic and when that is compelling even the sceptic will appreciate it.
He cossets himself with the cheap justification of the psuedo martyr that the genius is misunderstood by conventional opinion.

But, there hasn't been a crank born who doesn't take refuge in this standpoint.

Cases were the genius IS misunderstood CAN happen, but, they are so rare one can virtually discount them and that is CERTAINLY not the case here. There's no mystery or complex Stockholm syndrome or bizarre conspiracy about this issue. IR saw clearly that PP would not be forthcoming for a station at CG and made their decisions accordingly.
Strassenwolf's thesis is ridiculous, inflated, and fundamentally the product of some mental deviance on his part rather than some cogent insight into the decisions made about the route of this project.

Mohammad, could you leave aside the personal attacks, and just answer the question which was put to you: If Iarnrod Eireann had looked at College Green as a potential location for a DART underground - metro interchange station, why did they not mention this to An Bord Pleanala?

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 7:57pm

You were given the answer to this by Aard.

mohammadbyrne · 03-01-2015 8:03pm

As I said, your questions are not genuine, authentic, sincere or realistic (god forbid). They're sort of defensive and a smokescreen tactic to avoid facing reality.

strassenwo!f · 03-01-2015 8:31pm

mohammadbyrne wrote: »

You were given the answer to this by Aard.

No I wasn't. Obviously the glaring discrepancies between the RPA and IE presentations for the metro and intercoconnector should have been picked up by ABP, and they weren't.

That's not the issue here. What we're talking about here is the interconnector. If College Green was ever looked at, why wasn't it mentioned to An Bord Pleanala, in IE's submission to the board in pursuit of a railway order.

L1011 · 03-01-2015 8:45pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm working on the basis of their submission to An Bord Pleanala in pursuit of a railway order for the Dart Underground project.
.

A document which had zero reason to include every option they considered, hence making your work useless to the end you wanted to achieve from it. You clearly have zero understanding of ABPs role and are - still, after this has been pointed out to you many times - making ridiculously silly assumptions about what they can do, can ask, need to be told, etc.

Now, back to your unproven assertions...

DART Underground - Alternative Routes

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