advice needed about tail docking

sdp

Hi, I know it is Illegal since 6th March 2014. and very distressed about what I've seen and wondering what can be done. I walk past a farm with my little man, rescue terrier cross with lovely curly tail there's and old jack russell bitch that comes out as we pass. The person asked me a while ago it my chap was intact, as his bitch was in pup. and no, he's not, so yesterday said man came out, as proudly told me his bitch had five pups on Thursday, and he had docked the tails yesterday morning himself by cutting them off, as he wanted them to look right, ( as he said not like my chap with long tail) asked could I see puppies, he said no in a week or so when tails heal a bit, please is there anything I can do? the thought of the pain those puppies must have been in. any help or advice, please
thanks you

DBB

You could call the ISPCA in their Longford HQ to report it.
They are probably in the best position to tell you what to do or what may happen next.

sillysmiles

Is that not something that can be reported to the guards?

sdp

I'm not sure if it can be reported to guards, i'l call the ISPCA and maybe I can find out
Thank you

boomerang

Call the Dept. of Agriculture's animal welfare hotline as well. Seeing as this is a breach of the new legislation crafted by their Department, I would hope they will be keenly interested.

1850 211990.

DBB

boomerang wrote: »

Call the Dept. of Agriculture's animal welfare hotline as well. Seeing as this is a breach of the new legislation crafted by their Department, I would hope they will be keenly interested.

1850 211990.

This is why I thought ringing the ISPCA might be a good route, as they would either take the case themselves, and/or report it through to the Department.
IT is specifically dealt with under the new legislation alright, and strictly speaking, the guards could be called, and some *may* take an interest in it... however I'm thinking that they'd be more inclined to pass you on to either the Department or the ISPCA.
The Department is appointing Authorised Officers to deal with complaints, and they will include the uniformed, full-time ISPCA Inspectors.

sdp

Thank you so much boomerang, left message with ISCPA so hope they get back to me tomorrow, and thank you for the number, I'll ring them first thing in morning, hop something can be done.
thanks again

sdp

was typing when you posted, thank for information DBB, I'll keep on the case till something is done, otherwise how many more people will keep on doing this,
Thank you

Rips

Good for you, keep us updated, it'll be interesting to see if/how they will enforce this law.

DBB

sdp wrote: »

I'll keep on the case till something is done, otherwise how many more people will keep on doing this,
Thank you

Good for you OP, a few prosecutions will help to bring people into line. I've seen a few young pups around the place with illegally docked tails in the past couple of months.

keno-daytrader

We are great at making laws, unfortunately we seldom enforce them, so many come to mind. :mad:

We have a shocking record when it comes to the welfare of animals.

OP, I hope your not passed from the guards, to the ispca, to the dept of Agriculture, to the dog warden........

I find the practice of tail docking extremely cruel and I hope you get some satisfaction from the case. Please keep us updated.

boomerang

I would hope the welfare agencies would be keen to make an example of him, fingers crossed.

Amazing how people think that the law is for other people, not them.

RosieJoe

keno-daytrader wrote: »

We are great at making laws, unfortunately we seldom enforce them, so many come to mind. :mad:

We have a shocking record when it comes to the welfare of animals.

OP, I hope your not passed from the guards, to the ispca, to the dept of Agriculture, to the dog warden........

I find the practice of tail docking extremely cruel and I hope you get some satisfaction from the case. Please keep us updated.

Just to add to this, we are also very bad at highlighting/advertising new laws.

The owner of the bitch may have no knowledge of the new docking law, he might not have any contact with a vet regarding the pregnancy, if it was planned or not. How would he know of the new law if no one told him about it? I'd say a lot of people do not realise this new law was introduced.

daUbiq

RosieJoe wrote: »

Just to add to this, we are also very bad at highlighting/advertising new laws.

The owner of the bitch may have no knowledge of the new docking law, he might not have any contact with a vet regarding the pregnancy, if it was planned or not. How would he know of the new law if no one told him about it? I'd say a lot of people do not realise this new law was introduced.

Not sure ignorance of the law excuses this behaviour... Law or not, it's cruel and dogs have tails for a reason, don't they? :eek:

RosieJoe

daUbiq wrote: »

Not sure ignorance of the law excuses this behaviour... Law or not, it's cruel and dogs have tails for a reason, don't they? :eek:

I agree, but it could be a defense for the bitch's owner. Also we now know not to dock tails but for others, tail docking is still the done thing.

DBB

RosieJoe wrote: »

I agree, but it could be a defense for the bitch's owner. Also we now know not to dock tails but for others, tail docking is still the done thing.

You cannot use ignorance of the law as a defence in court .

However, I think you've raised a very valid point indeed, I'm sure if a survey were carried out, the percentage of people who know of the existence of the new tail docking laws would be very small altogether. I suppose that's where a few successful prosecutions kick in, when they make the local, and possibly national newspapers.

Dubl07

I'm going to obedience classes for pups under 20 weeks and there are a (small) number of pups with docked tails. Having said that, I wasn't aware of the new law, even though I'm entirely against arbitrary tail-docking.

sdp

Hi, thanks again. had written a reply but some how seem to have lost it,sorry, but have reported it to all agencies, including the local Gardai, and was told this would be looked in to, was a bit disappointed, as none of them seem very shocked about it, was told by one that it was hard to monitor as its mostly done at home with no vet involved, and not everyone is aware of the new law.
now, I'm not sure if I done the right thing,( was made to feel as if I was overreacting a bit.) maybe I was expediting to much to soon, I know in my heart I did, but not so sure how this law will be enforced. another neighbor have seen the pups and tails are docked, but is unwilling to get involved, and after spending some time last night searching the web, amazed to see on you tube, people showing how to dock tails! with information like that out there, I fear more people will do this act themselves
Thank you for you support

sdp

Just a quick update. met owner of pups, he had a visit, but as he claimed he knew nothing about this law, and pups were been well looked after, so nothing done! just a warning and to have his bitch looked at as she was quite old for her first litter of pups, and to read about tail docking. his vet then told him, that there was nothing wrong with what he done.and that some dog have short tails naturally! and it was only people like me sticking there nose in, and causing trouble. he was quite cocky about it, not a lot I could say, so disappointed.

Tranceypoo

sdp wrote: »

Just a quick update. met owner of pups, he had a visit, but as he claimed he knew nothing about this law, and pups were been well looked after, so nothing done! just a warning and to have his bitch looked at as she was quite old for her first litter of pups, and to read about tail docking. his vet then told him, that there was nothing wrong with what he done.and that some dog have short tails naturally! and it was only people like me sticking there nose in, and causing trouble. he was quite cocky about it, not a lot I could say, so disappointed.

Wait - the vet said that there was nothing wrong with what he'd done?? And was it the man or the vet who said people like you sticking your nose in? Either way I have to say I'm disgusted but not surprised at this outcome, typical typical bloody Irish attitude 'ah sure he's only an aul fella, sure 'tis grand aren't they grand cute little pupeens'

So, it seems like you CAN use ignorance of the law as a defence after all.

I'm as disappointed as you OP, really truly disgusted, what's the feckin point of these new laws, so called animal welfare 'hotlines' and ispca 'inspectors'???

Rips

That's disgusting and yet unsurprising. Its good that they visited, the owner is probably full of guff at the annoyance. Don't feel bad you did the right thing.

That vet could be reported for sanctioning that, if he/she did. Again its something that's hard to prove.

DBB

That's so disappointing op, but you still did the right thing. I'd be chasing it up with the ISPCA to find out why they're showing such lenience on a part of the legislation which was fought very hard for.
In the UK jurisdictions, if you're in possession of a docked dog, you must be able to provide a cert from the vet that carried out the procedure, and why. So, the person in charge of the docked dog is liable, regardless of who might have docked the tail. This has a clear knock-on effect, as people no longer want the hassle of a docked dog, and it's putting the underground lay-dockers out of business.
Pity we couldn't have done the same... There's just too big a loophole with our legislation whereby people in possession of docked dogs can just feign ignorance.

New Home

I really wonder if the vet really said that to your neighbour -maybe so that he wouldn't lose a customer-, or if it was just your neighbour trying to cover his own back...

Fair play for trying to do something about it - it's the old 'it's none of my business' attitude that allows these things to continue, it's a sort of a mafia culture, in its own way. As the old saying go, and I'm paraphrasing, it's enough for good people to do nothing for evil to triumph.

It might be too late for these little pups' tails, but he definitely won't be able to play dumb with the next litter...

sdp

Thank you all, good to know I'm not the only one outraged by this, I'll follow up with ISPCA, thank you again

sdp

hi, if any one gets the chance, please have a look at the Irish daily star, page 24, seven puppies rescued after tail docking,
Thank you

ferretone

Ooh, this really gets my goat! Well done, OP, for trying to pursue this matter: we need people all over the country doing the same, wherever they see it, if this legislation is to gain any traction. In a lackadaisical jurisdiction like this, the only answer is to make it more hassle for them not to enforce it, than to just do their job!

I was always horrified by the practice, but after the trouble it caused my recently deceased Dobie, basically a healthy dog who lost her life due to complications from her docking, 8 1/2 years after the fact, and doubtless a lay job too, it absolutely makes my blood boil that people still want to inflict this on defenceless pups :mad:

And "just to make them look right" :eek: As if dogs didn't arrive on the planet looking right already They certainly don't "look right" to other dogs at the least! Docked dogs have real problems exhibiting the full plethora of body language, which can lead to trouble interacting with their peers at the best of times. Now I know what I'm seeing, I always notice this handicap.

I guess too many people just don't realise that body language is basically their most important mode of communication. It's high time we addressed ignorance in this benighted country, and stopped excusing it :mad:

Lisasheridan

It's a disgusting, out dated practice which as you said is illegal. Contact guards/local dog warden/ispca. Maybe suggest he gets his bitch spayed aswell to reduce the possibility of future pups experiencing the same torture.

Whispered

Someone trying to sell docked "mini" jack russels on a community page I have. I can't get any info on the person besides his name and general area to report anywhere so I've just been deleting his posts.

kylith

Leaving his posts up with contact details removed and a note about how selling illegally operated-on animals isn't allowed might inform people who aren't aware of the change in the law.

sdp

Whispered wrote: »

Someone trying to sell docked "mini" jack russels on a community page I have. I can't get any info on the person besides his name and general area to report anywhere so I've just been deleting his posts.

God, how awful for you, as last poster said, maybe you could post to let others know, that its illegal, and how painful for the pups if it had been done by owner, and not vet, and that the new owner of pups won't get into trouble.
"Pet owners need to know that if they have purchased a pup that has been docked and if you did not ask for it to be docked then you have done nothing wrong – no case can nor will be taken against you. It is only the breeder and the person who performed the docking that was acting illegally" Here a link to an easy outline :http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2014/march/title,74312,en.html
.http://www.lovemypet.ie/tail-docking.
:http://www.louthspca.ie/attachments/article/162/Tail%20Docking.pdf
I think it take a long time for this law to be enforced,