RTPI and 'missing' busses

wahesh32

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps I tend to be more civic minded - I always tend to be pro-active when I see things like this as (from experience) in many cases I've found that the transport companies may not be aware of things like this.


There's never any substitute for customer feedback.

One of the bus routes would never appear on the RTPI for the stop outside my job (but would appear on the stops before or after my stop, and it was never all that accurate. It'd go from 12 minutes down to 3 minutes). I emailed Dublin Bus about it, and they replied they were unaware of the problem and would rewrite the timetables. About 3 weeks later the new timetables were pushed to the RTPI system (it had to be during a planned system upgrade), and now my bus appears on the stop outside my job and shows an accurate due time.

If I were to run across another problem, I know that I would email Dublin Bus right away with all the details.

I had a similar experience with IrishRail and their DART line where they promptly fixed an error on their website that I pointed out by email.

Whether or not the customer "should" be the one to point out these issues is not really important to me. What I've realized is if I do point it out, it makes a better service for me and presumably everyone else.

cdebru

[/QUOTE=km991148;92215743]so.. next morning.. get up 1/2 an hour early to get the earlier 65b (after yesterdays mess).. get to the bus stop at around 12 mins to 7 as (bus was showing on RTPI as scheduled for Terenure at 7:56) - as I approach the bus stop another entering service bus zooms past - definitely not with a broken sign as all lights were off etc.

Still no sign of a bus..

I am beginning to suspect this is not the actions of poorly designed RTPI - but the actions of drivers exploiting a poorly designed system.

Someone at DB must take responsibility.[/QUOTE ]

Ok based on what you are saying it is probably that the 65b you are waiting for is arriving into town late and being sent back out to tallaght or some point along the route out of service, to get it back on schedule but the RTPI is picking up the bus and predicting its arrival at stops even though it is not actually in service.
I very much doubt drivers exploiting a system, they simply wouldn't get away with it. It is IMO either a controller not removing the bus from the system, or a fault with the RTPI that it is picking up the bus when it shouldn't be.

Either way a complaint to DB with as much detail as possible is your best course.

Boulevardier

Conversely, has anyone experienced the miracle of buses appearing out of the blue when they are not mentioned at all on the real-time?

Sometimes the real-time shows no 145 due for 12 minutes, but there one is straight away. Hallelujah!!!

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Ok based on what you are saying it is probably that the 65b you are waiting for is arriving into town late and being sent back out to tallaght or some point along the route out of service, to get it back on schedule but the RTPI is picking up the bus and predicting its arrival at stops even though it is not actually in service.
I very much doubt drivers exploiting a system, they simply wouldn't get away with it. It is IMO either a controller not removing the bus from the system, or a fault with the RTPI that it is picking up the bus when it shouldn't be.

Either way a complaint to DB with as much detail as possible is your best course.

I think it's more the case that he/she has missed the bus. Based on my own experience it would be gone already when they arrived at the stop. The revised timing estimates in the RTPI system are way off kilter.

I doubt the 06:30 service has a trip before that, and while the 06:50 may do, no controller is going to send it out special when the next outbound trip on the route is not until 08:30.

The key question I have is what is the OP using to check the real time?

The best method I know is either the Dublin Bus website or the Dublin Bus app. They come directly off the company server.

I'd agree - any driver trying to "exploit the system" would be caught very quickly.

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

Conversely, has anyone experienced the miracle of buses appearing out of the blue when they are not mentioned at all on the real-time?

Sometimes the real-time shows no 145 due for 12 minutes, but there one is straight away. Hallelujah!!!

That sounds like defective GPS or an extra unscheduled departure.

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps I tend to be more civic minded - I always tend to be pro-active when I see things like this as (from experience) in many cases I've found that the transport companies may not be aware of things like this.


There's never any substitute for customer feedback.

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

I've already made a city public transport information and newsfeed website for them and/or the council, as per my signature. (The council promised to do it in 2009, but didn't deliver.) I'm damned if I'm going to do enough data collection and defect-writing to convince them that they've screwed up the RTPI implementation. And anything less than very detailed observations, they will just write off as one-off cases.

Reading back, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This is not about buses that aren't in service yet. In both the example I gave, and many others I've seen, the bus has already left the terminal and travelled a fair way (5+km) along its route. There is no excuse for it to be showing anything but real-time plus the prediction between its last reported location and where I am. Instead, the app was showing predictions based on timetable *alone* - and in this case it should not have the words "real time" listed by it.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

I think it's more the case that he/she has missed the bus. Based on my own experience it would be gone already when they arrived at the stop. The revised timing estimates in the RTPI system are way off kilter.

I doubt the 06:30 service has a trip before that, and while the 06:50 may do, no controller is going to send it out special when the next outbound trip on the route is not until 08:30.

The key question I have is what is the OP using to check the real time?

The best method I know is either the Dublin Bus website or the Dublin Bus app. They come directly off the company server.

I'd agree - any driver trying to "exploit the system" would be caught very quickly.

His times are actually confuses when he writes the numbers he suggests he is talking about 6:48 but in numbers he says 7:56, I was working on the basis of it being 7:56, I agree if it is 6:56 it is unlikely it does something before and if it does it is unlikely to be running late.

Which leaves either your explanation which could be because there is a problem with the system, usually on the bus so it is not getting live positional updates so it is going on predicted times which are based on average times over the day and not specific to traffic conditions at that time of the day.

Another possibility is and I have seen this, (or at least I think I have) that the RTPI picks up the bus and puts it on the display, going special along the route, ticket machine signed on for that route, the bus starts to announce the stops and I notice that the real time is showing a bus on the route as due, even though there is no bus due and no other bus around. It fits with the bus entering service passing the stops and the OP seeing the bus outside at the terminus.
I presume it maybe meant to be a feature to pick up buses like non timetabled extras or where a driver has incorrectly signed on but it may be picking up buses that aren't actually operating presuming they are one of the above.
( BTW driver has to sign on before leaving depot to ensure ticket equipment is operational before leaving depot)

Penny Tration

Was waiting on Nassau Street for either a 4 or 7 to the RDS on Saturday. Three went by without letting people on because they were full (fair enough), 3 disappeared off the board 2 minutes before they were due. So, i ended up having to get a taxi so i wouldn't be late for the rugby match.

The 17.32 17a very rarely arrives on a Saturday. I'm usually waiting an hour for a bus home from work.

cdebru

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

I've already made a city public transport information and newsfeed website for them and/or the council, as per my signature. (The council promised to do it in 2009, but didn't deliver.) I'm damned if I'm going to do enough data collection and defect-writing to convince them that they've screwed up the RTPI implementation. And anything less than very detailed observations, they will just write off as one-off cases.

Reading back, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This is not about buses that aren't in service yet. In both the example I gave, and many others I've seen, the bus has already left the terminal and travelled a fair way (5+km) along its route. There is no excuse for it to be showing anything but real-time plus the prediction between its last reported location and where I am. Instead, the app was showing predictions based on timetable *alone* - and in this case it should not have the words "real time" listed by it.

What I think ( and this is only from observation) is happening is that the system is set up to use real time when available and if not available to use predicted times rather than just go blank.

So if there is a predicted 10:30 departure it switches to real time when the real time becomes available, but if it has no real time it defaults to predicted which can be either wildly wrong depending on traffic conditions but the bus is out there somewhere or completely wrong because the bus isn't actually operating but the human intervention to remove it from the system hasn't happened.

Unfortunately if no one complains about it then that will likely not change, as I'm guessing until passengers complain the controllers supervisor is unaware that they are not doing their job.

LXFlyer

Random_Name wrote: »

I understand what you are saying now. But I still disagree, I'm talking about buses not due for between 5-15 minutes

Actually I noticed this myself in Dalkey yesterday on two occasions.


The inbound 8 was on the displays/RTPI app until 15 minutes before departure, then vanished completely, and then reappeared 5 minutes prior to departure.


During that whole period the bus was parked at the terminus, and the driver hadn't changed anything, so there does appear to be (for certain routes) a system glitch, as that certainly doesn't happen on all routes.

LXFlyer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

I've already made a city public transport information and newsfeed website for them and/or the council, as per my signature. (The council promised to do it in 2009, but didn't deliver.) I'm damned if I'm going to do enough data collection and defect-writing to convince them that they've screwed up the RTPI implementation. And anything less than very detailed observations, they will just write off as one-off cases.

Reading back, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This is not about buses that aren't in service yet. In both the example I gave, and many others I've seen, the bus has already left the terminal and travelled a fair way (5+km) along its route. There is no excuse for it to be showing anything but real-time plus the prediction between its last reported location and where I am. Instead, the app was showing predictions based on timetable *alone* - and in this case it should not have the words "real time" listed by it.

My post was made in relation to myself, so I'm not sure what is particularly "funny" about it. I have had over 25 years experience in corresponding with the various operators/authorities and I certainly find that actually they do appreciate feedback. If I spot something wrong, such as an on-street RTPI sign not working or a timetable error, I will report it.


Not doing it just means the problem perpetuates, and (as someone else pointed out in this thread), everyone loses out. Most of the things that I've reported were things that the companies were not aware of.


That's why (in a way) I'm maybe a little disappointed that you, clearly as someone who has an interest in public transport (having gone to the trouble of creating your excellent website) thinks it's not worthwhile alerting BE/NTA to the problem. I do find that when people make genuine efforts at pointing out mistakes or issues, that the companies are actually reasonably good at fixing them.

thomasj

On a different note, i have noticed that buses showing as due now are arriving 5 minutes later. the occasions i have taken or seen 39, 39a or 220 yesterday or today the buses were showing as due for 5 minutes before they actually arrived and were constantly disappearing and reappearing on the rtpi poles.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

On a different note, i have noticed that buses showing as due now are arriving 5 minutes later. the occasions i have taken or seen 39, 39a or 220 yesterday or today the buses were showing as due for 5 minutes before they actually arrived and were constantly disappearing and reappearing on the rtpi poles.

That sounds like they were stuck in traffic - and the times just kept repeating.

LXFlyer

To go back to the OP, any chance you could tell us what you were using to check the real times?

ArmaniJeanss

39/39a/70 route does seem fubared on RTPI the last few nights, this is way past peak time (around 8pm) and mid journey.

e.g., standing in Stoneybatter at 8.10pm the onstreet display says 2 mins for a 39a and a 70, 3 mins for a 39. Then the numbers go up to 3 and 4, then the 39 disappears totally. The numbers change between 2 and 3 minutes for around 5 minutes, then the 39a and 70 arrive at which stage the display still reads 2 minutes for their arrival.
On the journey up the Navan Rd I checked some of the stops on dublinbuslive and it was way out on that as well. I changed to a 38a in Blanch village, it arrived when the on street display was still saying 4 minutes.

LeinsterDub

Why doesn't the phone app let you see the actual location of your bus on map and let people guess when it's due and see its progress in real time?

gladrags

They have buses that go backwards,thats why the real time goes in reverse.

TheBandicoot

I've also noticed that the 39a/39/70 routes are totally messed up on RTPI this week- the buses are arriving on time but they randomly appear and disappear on displays, and the displays say information totally different to the website(which is also wrong).

Can't complain too much, got a free journey yesterday because the validator was broken.

Avada

Another person here who has noticed the 70 missing from RTPI. The 22.20 70 to Dunboyne wasn't on RTPI at all (from 10pm onwards anyway). This was at its first stop

bk

Another issue I've noticed with RTPI is wrong route!

Two weeks ago on two separate days I was waiting for a 16. RTPI said a 16 was coming, but instead a 16C arrived at the predicted time. Now that might be fine for most people as they are only going to the city, but in both cases I wanted to continue the journey beyond the city. This is sloppy and not good enough. It should be easy to indicate that the bus is actually a 16C

This also shows the ridiculous set up with fares. I ended up taking the 16C into town and another bus out of town for a total cost of €5. But had the actual 16 turned up, I could have made the exact same journey for €2.50!

We really need to move to an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off per km charge system, much, much fairer.

Avada

Slightly OT, but instead of tag on/tag off I'd prefer to see a flat fare with a travel 90 kind of function personally. Perhaps thats a discussion for another day!

GLaDOS

bk wrote: »

Another issue I've noticed with RTPI is wrong route!

Two weeks ago on two separate days I was waiting for a 16. RTPI said a 16 was coming, but instead a 16C arrived at the predicted time. Now that might be fine for most people as they are only going to the city, but in both cases I wanted to continue the journey beyond the city. This is sloppy and not good enough. It should be easy to indicate that the bus is actually a 16C

I've had the same happen several times with the 9, as well as the 16. 9c is useless if you're going from DCU to Walkinstown!

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Another issue I've noticed with RTPI is wrong route!

Two weeks ago on two separate days I was waiting for a 16. RTPI said a 16 was coming, but instead a 16C arrived at the predicted time. Now that might be fine for most people as they are only going to the city, but in both cases I wanted to continue the journey beyond the city. This is sloppy and not good enough. It should be easy to indicate that the bus is actually a 16C

This also shows the ridiculous set up with fares. I ended up taking the 16C into town and another bus out of town for a total cost of €5. But had the actual 16 turned up, I could have made the exact same journey for €2.50!

We really need to move to an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off per km charge system, much, much fairer.

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I've had the same happen several times with the 9, as well as the 16. 9c is useless if you're going from DCU to Walkinstown!

That would have been an unscheduled change, probably due to a lack of driver from the city onwards.


The controller should have overwritten the route number on the system from 16 to 16c, which clearly didn't happen. There is an issue where for whatever reason the on-street signs cannot cope with route curtailments, however the Dublin Bus app can.


The only practical advice I can give is to use the Dublin Bus app as it comes directly off the server.

GLaDOS

lxflyer wrote: »

The only practical advice I can give is to use the Dublin Bus app as it comes directly off the server.

I've seen the app get it wrong more than once

Kerry_2008

The RTPI is a joke, I get the same bus nearly every morning and if its late the RTPI still shows these 'phantom' buses stopping. Its either real time or its not. If its not real time don'r say it is

LXFlyer

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I've seen the app get it wrong more than once

That will be down to the controller not updating it. Ultimately any system is only as good as the information that is put into it.


However, by and large the app is the most reliable source of information.

bk

It still shows a great deal of sloppiness and unprofessional on Dublin Buses part and it needs to be fixed.

When I say fixed, I mean DB management ensuring that the Drivers/Controllers always properly update these changes.

Random_Name wrote: »

Slightly OT, but instead of tag on/tag off I'd prefer to see a flat fare with a travel 90 kind of function personally. Perhaps thats a discussion for another day!

There are a number of disadvantages to this:

- It punishes people going short distances while rewarding those going long distance (not necessarily a bad thing IMO), but a per km based system would be much fairer.
- Because of the above a per km system would likely receive less public and political criticism and those more likely to actually happen. Dublin Bus previously tired to introduce flat fares, but it was scrapped last minute due to political intervention.
- A per km system would allow better integration with Luas and DART if they were also to change to the same system (they sort of are already this sort of system). A T90 type ticket only works on Dublin Bus, but in Amsterdam, the per km system works across all modes and thus promotes multi-modal transport and integration. Something the current ticketing and Leap card fails miserably at.

thomasj

Ffs!

Arrived 10 minutes ago on wood quay to see on sign 39a due in 1 min. Over the space of 4 minutes it switched back and forth between 1 and 2 minutes before settling at due for 1 minute and then disappearing.

That was 10 minutes ago, it has yet to arrive!

thomasj

In the end the 39 arrived, i asked the driver whats the story with the 39a to which he replied he hadnt a clue so i got on. It was packed right upto the doors.

The bus journey was taking long enough so i got off at the halfway house. At this stage there was no 39 or 39a showing up on the board but 37 38 and 70 and on the website it was showing 17 minutes for the next 39a so i said id get the 70.

I looked up and the 39a had arrived! 3 people on board the bus and i got home in record time! No sign of it anywhere on rtpi or the dublin bus website.

MOH

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I've had the same happen several times with the 9, as well as the 16. 9c is useless if you're going from DCU to Walkinstown!

Same problem with 15s. The only scheduled 15Cs are the last ones at night, but more than once I've gotten on (or been about to) a 15 that ended up terminating in the city centre. They're not extra buses, since no actual 15 turned up. At least once it was during the reduced summer timetable, leaving a ridiculous gap at rush hour.

RTPI is just a mess on a regular basis. Rushed to D'Olier St yesterday morning to connect with a 46A, two were due in 6 minutes when I was 5 minutes away. Gotto the stop, both counted down to 'due', stayed there for about 3 minutes, then jumped to 5 minutes, stayed at that for a couple of minutes, then both buses appeared simultaneously while not 'due' for 4 minutes (although about 10 minutes after originally due).


As for informing Dublin bus about these issues, I've found it pointless. Twice in the past year I informed them of serious dangerous driving by buses, got identical cut-and-pasted generic emails. I've mailed them about RTPI issues, buses not stopping, and received cut+paste replies for those too.
About the only time they actually sent a 'relevant' reply was in response to a complaint about being delayed over ten minutes waiting for a driver change. They helpfully replied that their figures showed the average over a 2 hour period was under five minutes. Possibly accurate, but completely irrelevant.

I don't see the point of wasting further time dealing with them, they appear to have no interest in improving the situation.

mmmcake

MOH wrote: »

As for informing Dublin bus about these issues, I've found it pointless. Twice in the past year I informed them of serious dangerous driving by buses, got identical cut-and-pasted generic emails. I've mailed them about RTPI issues, buses not stopping, and received cut+paste replies for those too.
About the only time they actually sent a 'relevant' reply was in response to a complaint about being delayed over ten minutes waiting for a driver change. They helpfully replied that their figures showed the average over a 2 hour period was under five minutes. Possibly accurate, but completely irrelevant.

I don't see the point of wasting further time dealing with them, they appear to have no interest in improving the situation.

This sums up the problem, its just one person sending in multiple complaints, the first few complaints will be looked into then whoever is responsible for investigating complaints will notice the same name on the complaints.
This person will then get pegged as a serial complainer/ old bat and all future complaints will be put in the bin, this happen in every job.

If you want real change it will only happen if many people complain, if its just the one person all the time nothing will happen.

JustAddWater

Fantastic system this whole thing

Had to go to the shop in the rain to buy leap credit, PAST the bus stop and back up to the stop. Can't do it online because you need to load it in the shop. Why bother especially when the site in 2014 is not even mobile compatible.

If that's not the best thing since sliced bread, I'm waiting at the stop, bus is 2 mins away... Nope, 2 mins comes and goes. Next ones in 30, let's see if it comes. 'Real' time means something different at the dept of transport. Didn't get that memo

Marvel at the future of transport in Ireland! If I wasn't being rained on it'd actually be funny

Doesn't take genius to see why buses are losing passengers. One look at the traffic in the morning will tell you all you need to know

Sincerely, A soaked and disappointed dublin bus user

km991148

lxflyer wrote: »

OK leaving aside the RTPI issues, reading your posts, I'm assuming that you're going for the 06:30 or 06:50 departures on the 65b outbound from the city.

From experience (I used to use the 65 and 65b on a daily basis outbound from Terenure in the early mornings for five years) I would expect them to take around 12-20 minutes to appear in Terenure, depending on traffic.

Therefore I'd expect that the first one should appear between 06:40-06:50, and the second one between 07:00-07:10.

I suspect you missed the first one this morning - it would probably have passed a couple of minutes earlier than 06:48.

Depending on where you are going, if you miss either of these you should take a 49 or 65 and connect to another route in Tallaght if necessary - they both intersect with the 77a in Tallaght if you are going to Citywest, rather than forking out €20 for a taxi.

Getting back to the predictive times, looking at the journey planner there appears to be an error in the RTPI predictive times as there is no way it would take 26 minutes at that hour of the morning for the bus to get to Terenure. The predictive times appear to have changed on the journey planner recently, and looking at the older times (which for some reason are still there) they were giving each bus 16 minutes to get to Terenure, which was closer to the mark.

What I don't understand is why the real times are not overwriting the predictive times.

What are you using to look at the real time? An on-street display, Dublin Bus app or NTA Journey planner?

Hi - sorry been a busy few days!


1st - sorry - but I did write times wron - when I said 7:56 I mean 6:56.

As far as I can tell the system (I am talking about the db website directly) is showing the predicted timetable times.

However it looks like the bus is running early,* i.e. ahead of the predictions and the RTPI is not showing this.
To me, when the buses are running early RTPI is no use. The predicted times are only of use against a popper timetable.

NOTE - * I define this as a bus being early - I guess Dublin Bus has some Ts and Cs about the times being a guess etc.


Question tho - if we have rTPI installed why don't we update the guesstimate times bases on actual data? I would guess it would be trivial for each rout to have timetable prediction calculated bases on real data?

thomasj

A different day same story, 20-30 minute wait for 39a in the timebeing 2 39s showed up before it and when it arrived a trixale came with no room to take passengers.

This was at 8pm this evening

LXFlyer

km991148 wrote: »

Hi - sorry been a busy few days!


1st - sorry - but I did write times wron - when I said 7:56 I mean 6:56.

As far as I can tell the system (I am talking about the db website directly) is showing the predicted timetable times.

However it looks like the bus is running early,* i.e. ahead of the predictions and the RTPI is not showing this.
To me, when the buses are running early RTPI is no use. The predicted times are only of use against a popper timetable.

NOTE - * I define this as a bus being early - I guess Dublin Bus has some Ts and Cs about the times being a guess etc.


Question tho - if we have rTPI installed why don't we update the guesstimate times bases on actual data? I would guess it would be trivial for each rout to have timetable prediction calculated bases on real data?

You were definitely using and refreshing the Dublin Bus website or app?

km991148

lxflyer wrote: »

You were definitely using and refreshing the Dublin Bus website or app?

yep - doesn't matter now - new start time this week so wont be able to monitor/test the system on DBs behalf - I will monitor and email them in the future.

In the meantime I will walk (~50mins) tot he Luas - journey time will be the same as multiple DB buses but I will get marginally fitter in the process..

Monife

thomasj wrote: »

Ffs!

Arrived 10 minutes ago on wood quay to see on sign 39a due in 1 min. Over the space of 4 minutes it switched back and forth between 1 and 2 minutes before settling at due for 1 minute and then disappearing.

That was 10 minutes ago, it has yet to arrive!

That happens to me at least once a day. It is infuriating. Waiting on buses can feel like a never-ending wait but this added to it would annoy the most patient person.

Another RTPI issue I experience regularly, is that my bus is stated as being 9 minutes away, grand i'll mosey on down to the stop in a while, no rush. Check it 2 minutes later, bus is 2 minutes away, f*ck, have to absolutely leg it to the stop.

Also, "real time" app states bus is 5 minutes away then I check it again and it has dropped off the screen. So I take my time and mosey down to the stop to wait for the next one and I see said bus flying passed me! :mad:

MOH

Left on Tuesday for a stop 4 minutes away, two buses due in 7 mins - both passed me before I got to the stop.

Given it was over 20 mins to the next one, decided to walk to the city centre terminus where I'd have more choice of buses.
First stop there showed the next bus leaving in 12 mins. There was one sitting there, asked the driver how long he'd be waiting - "at least 5 minutes".

Ran to the next stop which also had a bus waiting, sign said departing in 1 minute. Got on that, it pulled off about 3 minutes later just after the first bus had gone past.

There's just no basis in reality for the times. "Unreal time passenger information" would be better.

cdebru

My personal experience using it is that it is great, it is not perfect, but I think people need to be realistic, it is a guide and an estimation based on "normal" average operating times and on what the bus is doing and what buses are doing in front of it.

So if it "normally" on average takes 9 minutes between point A and point B then that is what it will display, however if there is no traffic or much lighter traffic or lighter loading it will take a much shorter space of time than that, sometimes so much so that the RTPI doesn't get a chance to update. So that 9 minutes could be a relatively short distance say College Green to Aston Quay so the bus has covered the distance before the system has even had a chance to update.

Traffic in Dublin is weird and really hard to predict and the Luas CC work is making it even weirder and more unpredictable, take last night around 8pm work started at O'Connell bridge reducing Bachelors walk to one lane, work around in College green reduced it to one lane, and on the south quays Ushers Quay was down to one lane so at what would normally be a relatively quiet time buses are taking much longer to get there so RTPI is displaying 9 minutes and it takes 20, then the traffic eases off the lane is reopened the RTPI is displaying 15 based on the buses ahead are doing and boom the bus arrives in 10 minutes while you are in the shop thinking you have another 5 minutes to spare.


IMO what would be really useful is an app with a map system that showed you the actual location of buses on the particular route not just an expected time of arrival, if you could see the bus is literally just around the corner rather than x minutes away you could make a better judgement as to whether you should wait, walk to the next stop, nip into the shop etc.

bk

cdebru wrote: »

My personal experience using it is that it is great, it is not perfect, but I think people need to be realistic, it is a guide and an estimation based on "normal" average operating times and on what the bus is doing and what buses are doing in front of it.

I agree, people need to take RTPI as a guideline.

However I don't think there is any excuse for RTPI saying a 16 is coming and a 16C turns up. That is simply inexcusable bad management.

I wonder if part of the problem with time predictions is how often each bus communicates its actual location to the servers. I wonder if it is every 30 seconds or every minute or every two minutes.

The frequency of the communication can have a big effect on the accuracy of the prediction.

Also people need to keep in mind that mobile networks are far from perfect and that sometimes the bus may fail to communicate it's location to the servers due to network failure.

smellmepower

RTPI for the 76 in Clondalkin Village this morning was stuck on 3 mins for over ten minutes before the bus eventually showed up. Rushed to get to the stop in time for absolutely nothing.

Yesterday afternoon at Liffey Valley the RTPI for a 76 counted from 15min to due and just disappeared off the list.Was waiting from 15:20 to 16:10 for the next one, which was packed of course.

Such an annoying system.

KD345

smellmepower wrote: »

RTPI for the 76 in Clondalkin Village this morning was stuck on 3 mins for over ten minutes before the bus eventually showed up. Rushed to get to the stop in time for absolutely nothing.

Yesterday afternoon at Liffey Valley the RTPI for a 76 counted from 15min to due and just disappeared off the list.Was waiting from 15:20 to 16:10 for the next one, which was packed of course.

Such an annoying system.

It sounds like something delayed your bus this morning at a previous stop. Possibly heavy traffic or a problem with a passenger.

A 76 broke down yesterday and the 15:20 from Chapelizod couldn't operate.

smellmepower

I know it sometimes gets delayed crossing the Belgard to Fonthill at Newlands, but 10 minutes is a bit much. Surely the GPS would refresh the buses location to the RTPI system more than once in 10 minutes?

LXFlyer

smellmepower wrote: »

I know it sometimes gets delayed crossing the Belgard to Fonthill at Newlands, but 10 minutes is a bit much. Surely the GPS would refresh the buses location to the RTPI system more than once in 10 minutes?

I think the point is that the RTPI schedule would have shown it as taking 3 minutes to get from where it was to Clondalkin Village, but that the bus got blocked for whatever reason - it will still show three minutes as the computer system can't tell how long a blockage is going to take to clear.

syklops

When I was involved in speccing and delivering an RTPI system in the UK, we got round the predicted / scheduled conundrum by showing sheduled times as such (eg 12:25), and predicted ones as a countdown (eg 5 mins). This was explained on stop information. The customers knew therefore that a predicted bus was definitely on the way, whereas a scheduled one may or may not be.

The problem with the latter is that, unless the system is monitored continuously, there is no way of the system knowing whether it is a fault on the bus, driver incorrectly signed in or the bus not being present. Hence, unless you pay someone to sit there and manually update, "Bus Cancelled" messages for individual journeys are impractical.

Its disheartening to hear someone who had a hand in delivering a system like this say there is no way of building in fault tolerance and error checking into a system such as this.

Why can't each bus automatically check in at each stop on the route, meaning the system has an up to date record of where each bus is?

Real time information planners have been deployed in cities much bigger and much smaller than Dublin/Galway and some are highly accurate. Part of the problem is as Mrs O'Bumble points out its not really a Real Time Planner, its really just a digital representation of the timetable.

I also don't buy this "The driver didnt properly sign in to the ticketing machine" story.

bk

syklops I'm afraid you are mistaken about all that.

The buses actually do constantly communicate their current location via GPS and the mobile networks to the central RTPI servers.

However what is then shown on the RTPI screens is a mix of an estimate based on the timetable, the buses current location and an algorithm that predicts arrival.

I think it is better for RTPI to say the bus will come in 3 minutes and have it turn up in 10 minutes then the other way around! It is hard for RTPI to predict the arrival time when it is due to an unexpected blockage.

For instance in this case the bus might be 3 minutes away per the schedule and usual traffic for that time of day, but the bus might be stuck behind a road accident for 10 minutes. There is no way RTPI can tell this and deal with this in any other way then saying the bus is 3 minutes away.

What I do have a problem with is:

- Ghost buses, buses which say they are arriving now, but never turn up.
- Wrong bus route shown. No a 16C isn't a 16!

These are problems caused by Dublin Bus management and controllers and shows a simple lack of professionalism. They should never happen.

cdebru

syklops wrote: »

Its disheartening to hear someone who had a hand in delivering a system like this say there is no way of building in fault tolerance and error checking into a system such as this.

Why can't each bus automatically check in at each stop on the route, meaning the system has an up to date record of where each bus is?

Real time information planners have been deployed in cities much bigger and much smaller than Dublin/Galway and some are highly accurate. Part of the problem is as Mrs O'Bumble points out its not really a Real Time Planner, its really just a digital representation of the timetable.

I also don't buy this "The driver didnt properly sign in to the ticketing machine" story.

Your problem is you are not really thinking about what RTPI is and how it can be delivered, just real time information is useless, and you are incorrect it is not a representation of the timetable, it is not just real time either, it is a mixture of both as well as trying to predict how long it will take a bus to get to a particular point while taking into account all the possible variables, like traffic, passenger loading, how fast slow the driver is, roadworks, accidents etc etc etc.
For what it is and does I find it an excellent system and a vast improvement on what we had before which was guess how long a bus will take yourself.
Could it be improved? yes like I said a map option on the Dublin bus app that showed you actual location would be a huge benefit.
Differentiate when they are using "real" time and "expected" time based on the timetable.
Give information when a bus is removed, just a couple of words, mechanical breakdown, traffic incident, passenger incident, no staff etc whatever it is.

Lastly give the controllers a kick in the arse so they update the system, if they know a bus is due in 10 minutes at the terminus but is 20 minutes away on a previous journey then it should be removed at that stage not let it continue to count down only to disappear off the system.
I would suggest that people actually complain when the RTPI let's them down at least that way the ones that are just someone not doing their job can be addressed, if no one says anything the people in charge presume its all good.

cdebru

bk wrote: »

syklops I'm afraid you are mistaken about all that.

The buses actually do constantly communicate their current location via GPS and the mobile networks to the central RTPI servers.

However what is then shown on the RTPI screens is a mix of an estimate based on the timetable, the buses current location and an algorithm that predicts arrival.

I think it is better for RTPI to say the bus will come in 3 minutes and have it turn up in 10 minutes then the other way around! It is hard for RTPI to predict the arrival time when it is due to an unexpected blockage.

For instance in this case the bus might be 3 minutes away per the schedule and usual traffic for that time of day, but the bus might be stuck behind a road accident for 10 minutes. There is no way RTPI can tell this and deal with this in any other way then saying the bus is 3 minutes away.

What I do have a problem with is:

- Ghost buses, buses which say they are arriving now, but never turn up.
- Wrong bus route shown. No a 16C isn't a 16!

These are problems caused by Dublin Bus management and controllers and shows a simple lack of professionalism. They should never happen.

Agree 100%

But it should also be possible to communicate with passengers via the RTPI so if there is an accident in Fairview the RTPI screens further along the routes affected could display that information a simple "accident Fairview expect delays" would be better than staying stuck on 3 minutes for 10 minutes.

smellmepower

bk wrote: »

syklops I'm afraid you are mistaken about all that.

The buses actually do constantly communicate their current location via GPS and the mobile networks to the central RTPI servers.

However what is then shown on the RTPI screens is a mix of an estimate based on the timetable, the buses current location and an algorithm that predicts arrival.

I think it is better for RTPI to say the bus will come in 3 minutes and have it turn up in 10 minutes then the other way around! It is hard for RTPI to predict the arrival time when it is due to an unexpected blockage.

For instance in this case the bus might be 3 minutes away per the schedule and usual traffic for that time of day, but the bus might be stuck behind a road accident for 10 minutes. There is no way RTPI can tell this and deal with this in any other way then saying the bus is 3 minutes away.

What I do have a problem with is:

- Ghost buses, buses which say they are arriving now, but never turn up.
- Wrong bus route shown. No a 16C isn't a 16!

These are problems caused by Dublin Bus management and controllers and shows a simple lack of professionalism. They should never happen.

The reverse you mentioned has happened to me before too. IE: I've left the house with the RTPI app saying bus is 10 mins away only to double check it as I'm walking and see it has dropped to 2 mins, and I either have to sprint to the stop, or miss it and wait for another.

Its not a reliable system, and seems like a massive waste of money to come up with what is essentially a fancy guesstimate of the timetable.

Only way I'll actually trust it is when its possible to view your chosen buses location in proper real time on a map. Why isn't this possible now?

syklops

My problem is I can't trust the RTPI system because it is wrong 50% of the time. Thats my number 1 problem.