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Does GAA value Camogie?

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13

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    #62
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Neeson wrote: »
    Some absolutely shocking wides. And missing frees from in front of the posts? I wonder what is would be like with 30,000 opposition fans booing them. No wonder it's over half empty.

    Why would 30,000 opposition fans be booing them?


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    #63
    Neeson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    robbiezero wrote: »
    Why would 30,000 opposition fans be booing them?

    I suppose I mean if it was like the mens where you could have a Hill of blue jeering. Although in the case of the ladies you have high pitched screeching. That is probably worse.


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    #64
    zetecescort
    Registered Users Posts: 5,110 ✭✭✭zetecescort


    Neeson wrote: »
    I suppose I mean if it was like the mens where you could have a Hill of blue jeering. Although in the case of the ladies you have high pitched screeching. That is probably worse.

    Dubs are classy fans alright.


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    #65
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    The camogie association is stuck in the past.

    The farce of drawing of lots between Clare and Dublin is like something you'd hear from the 1920's.

    It is very disrespectful to county players

    (I couldn't find another thread to post this)


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    #66
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    As a rule I don't think there's anything wrong with the drawing of lots if two teams can't be separated. It's been done in the World Cup and it has its place. However these Camogie rules are just daft, all the Camogie Association have look at as league table points and head-to-head records. Why weren't the rules written so that if teams are level on that basis then it goes to points difference or even goals scored? They've created a huge controversy that didn't need to exist because of their own short-sightedness.


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    #67
    galwaylad14
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭galwaylad14


    super_furry wrote: »
    As a rule I don't think there's anything wrong with the drawing of lots if two teams can't be separated. It's been done in the World Cup and it has its place. However these Camogie rules are just daft, all the Camogie Association have look at as league table points and head-to-head records. Why weren't the rules written so that if teams are level on that basis then it goes to points difference or even goals scored? They've created a huge controversy that didn't need to exist because of their own short-sightedness.

    Ya to be honest when I heard they were drawing lots I presumed it was because they were level on points, head to head, score difference, basically everything you could use to seperate them and they had no to have a playoff so lots was the only option. But to hear they haven't even factored in score difference is outrageous. It just seems such an obvious thing that should be there.

    Fair play to both teams for the brave stance they're taking on it.


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    #68
    OldieWilson
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭OldieWilson


    Out of interest, which team has the better points difference?


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    #69
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭bren2001


    super_furry wrote: »
    As a rule I don't think there's anything wrong with the drawing of lots if two teams can't be separated. It's been done in the World Cup and it has its place. However these Camogie rules are just daft, all the Camogie Association have look at as league table points and head-to-head records. Why weren't the rules written so that if teams are level on that basis then it goes to points difference or even goals scored? They've created a huge controversy that didn't need to exist because of their own short-sightedness.

    Lots have only been drawn once in the World Cup and it was to separate Ireland and The Netherlands in non-qualification places i.e. it had no impact.

    Drawing lots in the World Cup does make sense but it is the fifth tie breaker and is unlikely to ever be used. However, due to the compactness of a World Cup, holding a replay is virtually impossible nowadays. The drawing of lots in an AI championship is frankly ridiculous. There is ample time over the summer to host a decider match between the two teams. I don't see why they couldn't have wrapped up the group 2 weeks ago, it's silly stuff.


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    #70
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    We're these rules not clear at the start of the campaign?
    Objections should have been made then and not now.

    As others have stated, this not happen in world cup football also, if teams are level on points , draw there match and have same goals for and against? An d this only happens every 4 years and you also need to qualify so a much more dedication to get there?

    So what's the problem?
    Is it the coin toss or the fact score difference is not used?
    You both finished level so that's the way the rules are set move on.


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    #71
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭blue note


    I was going to start a thread on this this morning. I've read bits on it and what a farce this is. It seems to me that the organisation shortsightedly decided on this as a means of separating the teams, but must have thought it would never be needed. Now it is and they must realise that they agreed to do something stupid. So they're faced with the decision to go ahead and do that stupid thing or make a new plan and they seem to be saying "no, we decided to do something stupid, so we're going to do it."

    I'm actually really annoyed by this. It's so unfair on the girls who have put so much into the year. Fair play to them for the stance they've taken, they shouldn't put up with being treated like this.


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    #72
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭bren2001


    ForestFire wrote: »
    We're these rules not clear at the start of the campaign?
    Objections should have been made then and not now.

    As others have stated, this not happen in world cup football also, if teams are level on points , draw there match and have same goals for and against? An d this only happens every 4 years and you also need to qualify so a much more dedication to get there?

    So what's the problem?
    Is it the coin toss or the fact score difference is not used?
    You both finished level so that's the way the rules are set move on.

    Yes, it never should have been put in the rules but it was. I assume most people thought it was unlikely ever to be used so didn't bother raising an objection. As a side point, the dedication levels are irrelevant. The camogie players are as dedicated as the professional footballers, the fact the tournament is every four years is irrelevant.

    For me the issue is that in Hurling, Gaelic and Ladies football, this would never happen. A match between the two would take place and the fixture list changed to suit this. It's not as if they are that tight on time.

    (Before anyone jumps in, I know camogie is its own entity and not part of the GAA per se)


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    #73
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    mushypeas12 wrote: »
    Who cares

    well, most GAA clubs who have camogie in the club


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    #74
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    bren2001 wrote: »
    As a side point, the dedication levels are irrelevant. The camogie players are as dedicated as the professional footballers, the fact the tournament is every four years is irrelevant.

    While I agree with the rules not being ideal and they should take "score difference/ scores for" into account I think the point above is still relevant.

    Not taking away from the dedication the girls put in, but as I said a world cup is only every 4 years, you have to go through a qualifing campaign of 2 years to get there and if you are lucky you will only every get to a few if any world cups (Unless you are in the top 10% of players)

    In Camogie (And hurling/football) you career is much longer and you have much more opportunities every year.

    Would it be any better to go out by having scored 1 less point than the other team?

    What if you had a point/goal incorrectly disallowed in a match you were comfortably winning, so at the time it made not difference, but could swing this result like this?

    When margins are so fine you have to accept some kind of knockout strategy

    Improve it for next year by all means, but you cannot change the rules half way through a compitition


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    #75
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,968 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ForestFire wrote: »

    Improve it for next year by all means, but you cannot change the rules half way through a compitition

    Of course you can, if the will and the consensus is there.

    It will be interesting to see what Wexford, Cork and Tipp do. It is within their power to force the change by threatening to withdraw and void the championship. Its what they should do in solidarity, as it could just as easily happen to them next time around. Still time for Dublin and Clare to play a match and postpone the Wexford v Winner game


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    #76
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭bren2001


    ForestFire wrote: »
    While I agree with the rules not being ideal and they should take "score difference/ scores for" into account I think the point above is still relevant.

    Not taking away from the dedication the girls put in, but as I said a world cup is only every 4 years, you have to go through a qualifing campaign of 2 years to get there and if you are lucky you will only every get to a few if any world cups (Unless you are in the top 10% of players)

    In Camogie (And hurling/football) you career is much longer and you have much more opportunities every year.

    Would it be any better to go out by having scored 1 less point than the other team?

    What if you had a point/goal incorrectly disallowed in a match you were comfortably winning, so at the time it made not difference, but could swing this result like this?

    When margins are so fine you have to accept some kind of knockout strategy

    Improve it for next year by all means, but you cannot change the rules half way through a compitition

    I personally don't like the idea of points difference in GAA sports but that is my own personal preference. There is absolutely no reason why these 2 teams can't play again this weekend and push the other match back a week.

    I disagree with your view on the WC but I don't really see the relevance in arguing it tbh, its a defunct point regarding this situation.

    Of course the rules can be changed. I fully expect them to be as well.


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    #77
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Of course you can, if the will and the consensus is there.

    Well if everyone in the whole association agrees then yes your right, But at the moment there is no consensus. It is only the two teams in the situation that are in disagreement....so where dose that leave us?

    Any even still this leaves the integrity of the competition open in the future...if you don't like something (Right or Wrong) just pull out...this set a dangerous precedence in my opinion


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    #78
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    bren2001 wrote: »
    its a defunct point regarding this situation.

    How is it defunct? I have given valid reasons why I believe it is different.
    If you cannot/don't want to debate the points that's fine but please don't just dismiss them as you know right .


    And fair enough if you don't like score difference, but the time to debate all these issues is at the start on the competition and agree then.
    What is score difference was the deciding factor, but the losing team decided then, hey wait a minute i think it should go to a replay

    Again decide the rules at the start and stick to them...

    Unfortunately in this case I agree the rules are not great and could be greatly improved to be fairer...but no this season


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    #79
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Of course you can, if the will and the consensus is there.

    It will be interesting to see what Wexford, Cork and Tipp do. It is within their power to force the change by threatening to withdraw and void the championship. Its what they should do in solidarity, as it could just as easily happen to them next time around. Still time for Dublin and Clare to play a match and postpone the Wexford v Winner game

    wasn't the champions league format changed to suit Liverpool a few years ago?

    they let in the champions, when they hadn't qualified for the following year.


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    #80
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Someone in the Clare county board really ramped up the hyperbole:
    "The upset and mental anguish that has been forced upon players by the Association, will have deep and long lasting repercussions. Players are inconsolable and feel betrayed.

    "For an Association to deprive a team the opportunity to advance on merit is incomprehensible and indefensible. How can our most valuable asset, our players, be degraded and mis-treated?"

    It's obviously a balls up and the players should get a chance to play to progress, but that statement had me in stitches to be honest. Mental anguish? Inconsolable? Really? You couldn't read that without a snigger.


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    #81
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭bren2001


    ForestFire wrote: »
    How is it defunct? I have given valid reasons why I believe it is different.
    If you cannot/don't want to debate the points that's fine but please don't just dismiss them as you know right .


    And fair enough if you don't like score difference, but the time to debate all these issues is at the start on the competition and agree then.
    What is score difference was the deciding factor, but the losing team decided then, hey wait a minute i think it should go to a replay

    Again decide the rules at the start and stick to them...

    Unfortunately in this case I agree the rules are not great and could be greatly improved to be fairer...but no this season

    What relevance is another sport to this situation. Correct me if I am wrong, you're point hinges on the idea that since the World Cup is every 4 years players get fewer chances to win. In camogie, you get a chance every year. Why does the frequency of the event come into play? The rule is an unfair rule on the losing team. The issue of fairness in any sport shouldn't come down to the frequency of the event, hence why I believe the point to be irrelevant to this situation.

    If score difference was the deciding factor, it at the very least would be fair (assuming the fixtures were played simultaneously, which they were not and could not be).

    Why can't we change the rules if they are deemed to be unfair? Playing rules in other GAA sports are changed mid-championship to adjust to the climate at the time. Why not make a structural change?


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    #82
    dirkmeister
    Registered Users Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭dirkmeister


    Did the Clare and Dublin management know about the coin toss situation at the beginning of the year?


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    #83
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭blue note


    dirkmeister wrote: »
    Did the Clare and Dublin management know about the coin toss situation at the beginning of the year?

    Probably not. The information was there for everyone I'm sure, but they probably just trained the teams and didn't look at the finer detail of the competitions. If a management was looking at the 3rdor 4th deciding factor for separating teams I'd say they're distracted.


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    #84
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    bren2001 wrote: »
    What relevance is another sport to this situation.

    Of course it is relevant, how are you supposed to debate the merits of one sporting system if you can't talk about another. there are many comments about this not happening in other sports.

    bren2001 wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong, you're point hinges on the idea that since the World Cup is every 4 years players get fewer chances to win. In camogie, you get a chance every year. Why does the frequency of the event come into play? The rule is an unfair rule on the losing team. The issue of fairness in any sport shouldn't come down to the frequency of the event, hence why I believe the point to be irrelevant to this situation.

    In my opinion the frequency does has a bearing, It impacts on the amount of time and commitment put into one competition over 4 years. Something you may never get back to again in you life so any perceived injustice in amplified.

    This is not saying that the rule is fair, just that it has a bigger effect in a 4 year competition,

    but the main point is that in the largest (or maybe second after Olympics) sporting competition in the world, it seems to be okay to use the same kind of rule in certain situations to separate teams
    bren2001 wrote: »
    If score difference was the deciding factor, it at the very least would be fair (assuming the fixtures were played simultaneously, which they were not and could not be).

    Score difference is used in the six nations (I know..Another sports i'm comparing to) and they are not played at the same time
    bren2001 wrote: »
    Why can't we change the rules if they are deemed to be unfair? Playing rules in other GAA sports are changed mid-championship to adjust to the climate at the time. Why not make a structural change?

    Yes change the rule, I agree it needs to be changed, but not in the middle of a competition, now that you decide you don't like them.


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    #85
    castletownman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,244 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    The GAA are famously quick at blowing their own trumpet, but I don't think any other sporting organisation would let a farcical situation like this develop mid-season. No team should see their championship ended by a lottery and it puts paid to the genuine sterling work being done by the WGPA in increasing the profile of the sport. They are very quick to change rules off the cuff to suit agendas ("Nash rule") but yet never let common sense prevail when needs be.


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    #86
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,247 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    So if Clare & Dublin boycott the coin-toss, then neither of them advance and the other team gets a bye ?


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    #87
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,868 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    castletownman wrote: »
    The GAA are famously quick at blowing their own trumpet, but I don't think any other sporting organisation would let a farcical situation like this develop mid-season. No team should see their championship ended by a lottery and it puts paid to the genuine sterling work being done by the WGPA in increasing the profile of the sport. They are very quick to change rules off the cuff to suit agendas ("Nash rule") but yet never let common sense prevail when needs be.
    this is literally NOTHING to do with the GAA.

    Camogie is a completely separate organisation with their own separate rules, committees and competitions.

    If camogie wanted to have a rule that you can stuff the ball down your skort and run the length of the pitch then they could and again, would be NOTHING to do with the GAA.


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    #88
    castletownman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,244 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    this is literally NOTHING to do with the GAA.

    Camogie is a completely separate organisation with their own separate rules, committees and competitions.

    If camogie wanted to have a rule that you can stuff the ball down your skort and run the length of the pitch then they could and again, would be NOTHING to do with the GAA.

    I put my hand up and admit my boo-boo but surely they are run virtually the same way anyway and the point still stands.

    That's what I am going with anyway :D


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    #89
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭bren2001


    ForestFire wrote: »
    In my opinion the frequency does has a bearing, It impacts on the amount of time and commitment put into one competition over 4 years. Something you may never get back to again in you life so any perceived injustice in amplified.

    This is not saying that the rule is fair, just that it has a bigger effect in a 4 year competition,

    but the main point is that in the largest (or maybe second after Olympics) sporting competition in the world, it seems to be okay to use the same kind of rule in certain situations to separate teams

    Time and commitment? The World Cup is a competition that comprises of professionally paid athletes. The camogie AI comprises of amateur sportspeople. I don't think comparing the WC and AI is valid because:

    1. The world cup is held over a one month period with fans travelling from all over the world. The fixture list is so compact, having a replay is not feasible. The camogie AI fixture list can easily be moved to accommodate one additional match.

    2. The drawing of lots is the 7th tie breaking condition. The probability of one of the other tie breakers not being satisfactory is extremely unlikely. In this case, both teams have literally matched each other stride for stride in the group games. While unfair on the losing team, I understand why it is necessary here. In the camogie, after points, the drawing of lots is the 2nd tie breaking condition. This eventuality was quite likely to happen. So saying, well the WC has it, I dont think it is fair to directly compare them.
    ForestFire wrote: »
    Score difference is used in the six nations (I know..Another sports i'm comparing to) and they are not played at the same time

    Indeed it is and Ireland gained an unfair advantage this year knowing what we had to do to beat Scotland after the Wales game. Equally, England gained an unfair advantage knowing what they had to do. Just because another sport does it doesn't mean it is fair or should be introduced here.

    You seem keen on comparing it to the WC, in the WC the final group stage games are all played at the same time. That just makes sense. No team gains an advantage there. Similarly in the GAA, all the final round of league games are played at the same time. In the PL, the same is true.
    ForestFire wrote: »
    Yes change the rule, I agree it needs to be changed, but not in the middle of a competition, now that you decide you don't like them.

    If it is a stupid rule, why not change it in the middle of the competition. Nobody loses out by changing the rule. What's your reason for not changing it? Purely because the competition has started?


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    #90
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    bren2001 wrote: »
    Time and commitment? The World Cup is a competition that comprises of professionally paid athletes. The camogie AI comprises of amateur sportspeople.

    Would prefer if I compared it to a game of tiddlywinks down the playground?
    I think that would be more disrespectful to the camogie ladies.

    Comparing it to the elite would be much more appropriate if you want to talk about how these ladies should be treated. I taught you always compare your self to the highest level that you aspire to.

    bren2001 wrote: »
    I don't think comparing the WC and AI is valid because:

    1. The world cup is held over a one month period with fans travelling from all over the world. The fixture list is so compact, having a replay is not feasible. The camogie AI fixture list can easily be moved to accommodate one additional match.

    2. The drawing of lots is the 7th tie breaking condition. The probability of one of the other tie breakers not being satisfactory is extremely unlikely. In this case, both teams have literally matched each other stride for stride in the group games. While unfair on the losing team, I understand why it is necessary here. In the camogie, after points, the drawing of lots is the 2nd tie breaking condition. This eventuality was quite likely to happen. So saying, well the WC has it, I dont think it is fair to directly compare them.

    While I agree these are valid points I have used the world cup to show that a coin toss is used in certain circumstances at the highest level without issue.


    bren2001 wrote: »
    Indeed it is and Ireland gained an unfair advantage this year knowing what we had to do to beat Scotland after the Wales game. Equally, England gained an unfair advantage knowing what they had to do. Just because another sport does it doesn't mean it is fair or should be introduced here.

    You seem keen on comparing it to the WC, in the WC the final group stage games are all played at the same time. That just makes sense. No team gains an advantage there. Similarly in the GAA, all the final round of league games are played at the same time. In the PL, the same is true.

    Yes world cup group games are played at the same time, but it is not in rugby. Both are valid options with WC benefits with the other. But it has been used in either format at the highest level. I'm not saying either should be introduced, just decide what you want to do at the start and stick to it for the competition.
    bren2001 wrote: »
    If it is a stupid rule, why not change it in the middle of the competition. Nobody loses out by changing the rule. What's your reason for not changing it? Purely because the competition has started?

    Unless you can get absolutely all parties to agree, then I have said before why i don't think its good to change it now:-

    These are just my opinions, you don't' have to agree with them and either do the the ladies camogie association.

    My quotes from earlier:-

    Would it be any better to go out by having scored 1 less point than the other team?

    What if you had a point/goal incorrectly disallowed in a match you were comfortably winning, so at the time it made not difference, but could swing this result like this?

    When margins are so fine you have to accept some kind of knockout strategy

    Well if everyone in the whole association agrees then yes your right, But at the moment there is no consensus. It is only the two teams in the situation that are in disagreement....so where dose that leave us?

    Any even still this leaves the integrity of the competition open in the future...if you don't like something (Right or Wrong) just pull out...this set a dangerous precedence in my opinion

    What is score difference was the deciding factor, but the losing team decided then, hey wait a minute i think it should go to a replay

    Again decide the rules at the start and stick to them...


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    #91
    Speak Now
    Registered Users Posts: 8,582 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    keeponhurling wrote: »
    So if Clare & Dublin boycott the coin-toss, then neither of them advance and the other team gets a bye ?


    Wexford would be expected to win easy against either, it's a shame the season will be de-valued now. Id doubt they'll want a bye.


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