illegal irish

Paul_Hacket

I was referring to going from Seattle to Vancouver, which you mentioned, which is obviously understandable if the check occurs during the crossing. Having checkpoints "near" the border might be reasonable too, but the nature of Arizona's law which allow cops to stop anybody anytime, anywhere they feel like it in order to have them present their "papers" is motivated by nothing but racism.

hfallada

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

I was referring to going from Seattle to Vancouver, which you mentioned, which is obviously understandable if the check occurs during the crossing. Having checkpoints "near" the border might be reasonable too, but the nature of Arizona's law which allow cops to stop anybody anytime, anywhere they feel like it in order to have them present their "papers" is motivated by nothing but racism.

And the same thing happens in Europe as well. German police will often have their checkpoints within Germany, near the borders. Although its in Schengen and there is supposed to be freedom of travel. The police will still get on a train from Austria and ask anyone they like see their ID. Is it racist, maybe. But if someone is illegal in a country, why should law enforcement turn a blind eye?

Paul_Hacket

Nope, the same thing doesn't happen in Europe unless you are totally failing to understand what I'm saying. You're talking about crossing borders or being in the area of a border. I'm talking about cops pulling over brown people in Phoenix just because they don't like em. And by the way, referencing Germany in defence of a "show me your papers" law might not be the best strategy.

Frank Lee Midere

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

I was referring to going from Seattle to Vancouver, which you mentioned, which is obviously understandable if the check occurs during the crossing. Having checkpoints "near" the border might be reasonable too, but the nature of Arizona's law which allow cops to stop anybody anytime, anywhere they feel like it in order to have them present their "papers" is motivated by nothing but racism.

Presumably the guy on here who was stopped was white. So not racism. Just the law.

US police pull over cars all the time for minor cause or none.

Frank Lee Midere

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Nope, the same thing doesn't happen in Europe unless you are totally failing to understand what I'm saying. You're talking about crossing borders or being in the area of a border. I'm talking about cops pulling over brown people in Phoenix just because they don't like em. And by the way, referencing Germany in defence of a "show me your papers" law might not be the best strategy.

Obviously the guy you were responding to was taking about the same thing. Police checks in Germany not on the border but close by. Theoretically you shouldn't be stopped across borders either.

Paul_Hacket

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Obviously the guy you were responding to was taking about the same thing. Police checks in Germany not on the border but close by. Theoretically you shouldn't be stopped across borders either.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Paul_Hacket

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Presumably the guy on here who was stopped was white. So not racism. Just the law.

US police pull over cars all the time for minor cause or none.

Absolutely wrong. In the US you have to have "probably cause" to pull someone over. This isn't a police state, although with attitudes such as yours it might get there.

The law in Arizona is framed so that cops can stop anyone any time they want and force them to prove they are legal residents. The cop only has to claim "reasonable suspicion" but does not have to articulate what that suspicion is based on. The people who wrote this law are open racists with a history of "concern" about the changing "demographics" of Arizona. In other words - they just don't like hispanics. The law is transparently racist and ugly and has been condemned by everybody from Karl Rove and Jeb Bush on the right to the heads of the Catholic Church in the USA to pretty much everybody who has common sense.

Wompa1

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Absolutely wrong. In the US you have to have "probably cause" to pull someone over. This isn't a police state, although with attitudes such as yours it might get there.

The law in Arizona is framed so that cops can stop anyone any time they want and force them to prove they are legal residents. The cop only has to claim "reasonable suspicion" but does not have to articulate what that suspicion is based on. The people who wrote this law are open racists with a history of "concern" about the changing "demographics" of Arizona. In other words - they just don't like hispanics. The law is transparently racist and ugly and has been condemned by everybody from Karl Rove and Jeb Bush on the right to the heads of the Catholic Church in the USA to pretty much everybody who has common sense.

I'm friends with Mexican Americans here, funny enough they love Sherif Joe and I think he's an a-hole. The tent prison is inhumane during the summer...

How would you deal with it?

Paul_Hacket

Deal with what? What we were discussing was how Arizona chooses to deal with its hispanic population. The fact that Jan frigging Brewer is the governor of the state and that this law was passed is pretty damning to me. It's nakedly racist and the people behind it have a documented history of racism. That's all I'm saying.

Wompa1

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

Deal with what? What we were discussing was how Arizona chooses to deal with its hispanic population. The fact that Jan frigging Brewer is the governor of the state and that this law was passed is pretty damning to me. It's nakedly racist and the people behind it have a documented history of racism. That's all I'm saying.

I don't agree with either but then I don't have any better answer for dealing with the issue. It's not about how they deal with their hispanic population. I believe a white person on this thread said they were pulled over.....so it's everybody, not just hispanics. My friend has been pulled over twice since I've been here for speeding. He's as Mexican as they come and was never asked for his papers.

In Ireland we have blasphemy on the books. With the logic behind it being that it could be used selectively to tackle the gang problem.

In New York they brought in Stop and Frisk.

In the airports they brought in random frisking (racial profiling)

Arizona is not unique. There's no probably cause required in Stop and Frisk other than how the cop feels. Ditto in the airports...it's 'random'. I'm living in Phoenix and I haven't heard of a flurry of upset citizens that were pulled over and asked for their papers....because they are not pulling over every Mexican looking person. They are being selective. They aren't dumb, they have informants, they know where day laborers gather, they aren't targeting the hispanic community, they are attempting to target illegal immigrants....

And I still disagree with it simply on the dangerous premise it sets but I don't believe it's being abused. Just like I know the blasphemy law has not been abused since it's introduction back during the McAleese days.

lil_lisa

Arizona have state borders as well as international borders. i.e. when I'm driving from California to Arizona I have to show my passport, visa and paperwork to prove I'm legally in this country. I don't think any other state has mandatory border crossings like this. There are a few checkpoints in California coming up from the border but they're not always in use.

Paul_Hacket

You do not have to show i.d. when entering Arizona. No state has the right to ask you for i.d. while travelling internally inside the US. You cannot be stopped and made to present your papers without probable cause. That people are ignorant enough of the constitution and their basic rights to even think that this is reasonable is just ****ing bonkers. If you're referring to the checkpoint near Blythe, it is there because you are only a few miles from the US border and is manned by federal agents as part of their border operations not by Arizona enforcement.

You're a moderator? Do you want to back that nonsense up? Because bad as Arizona is, it does not stop people on its borders who are entering from other states.

PS - furthermore you do not have to present your i.d. even to the Feds at these checkpoints if they request it. They can ask you if you're a citizen but you do not even have to answer. If they have tangible and explicable probable cause to believe you are not a citizen - a foreign accent would probably qualify for this - they can detain you. However if you are a US citizen you don't even have to respond to them, they are simply chancing their arm and without probably cause they have zero legal basis to detain you or question you further. This is all because people in the USA have basic rights not to be arbitrarily harassed by the police.

lil_lisa

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

If they have tangible and explicable probable cause to believe you are not a citizen - a foreign accent would probably qualify for this - they can detain you..

Exactly! Hence the reason I have had to show my passport and documentation. I'm not going to risk being detained because I don't have my paperwork on me. I've passed through similar California borders and they simply asked me details about my legal presence but never to show documents. Even if there's no legal requirement to show my documents in Arizona, they have asked me for it and I don't know enough about law to know whether or not I have to show it. The same goes for a lot of other people travelling through Arizona.

Maybe it has just been the luck of the draw for me, but that's how travelling to Arizona has been. I'm not backing anything up, I'm simply letting everyone know what I have been through.

ProudDUB

A good friend of mine drives from San Diego to Phoenix a couple of times a month, to visit her parents. Once in Arizona, she gets pulled over at least once, on the way there and back. She drives a very fancy sports car with tinted windows, so law enforcement can't even see who is inside before they pull her over. She is pretty high up in the the ATF, which leads to some pretty funny exchanges once they realize who she is. They openly admit to targeting her as they think that she is involved in the drugs trade, mainly due to the car that she drives.