Irish universities plummet in rankings; 4 UK institutions in top 5

_Whimsical_

I think there's also a problem with Irish universities over grading, ie grading above the ability of the exam candidates. In Ireland in recent years while funding has been dramatically cut, pass exam results and the awarding of hons degrees has actually increased substantially. That just does not make sense.To do well in the leaving cert you have to attend school daily,have little sick leave, devote yourself to the course and sacrifice an active social life. However you can still do well in uni if you drink 3 nights a week, turn up to half the lectures and have a roaring active social life. That also does not make sense.

Several posters have claimed here that they didn't bother attending lectures and tutorials and still passed.The reason for that is because exam questions are often given directly word for word to candidates in class and marking is in no way rigorous.
That might be fine from an individuals perspective but on the whole it creates a system where degrees will becomes of less value from certain institutions and hardworking students will be penalised in the future when an employer sees a certain college on a cv and dismisses the candidate for someone from a more reputable institution.

The answer is not just more funding, laziness is also endemic among Ireland's teaching academics. Only last year I watched someone in a uni degree course complete a maths assignment online that was part of their continuous assessment and counted for a substantial portion of their end of year mark.To complete it all she had to do was click "forward" on the browser to get to a page where all the correct answers were already highlighted. Then she clicked back on the browser and filled in the necessary answers in her own account. What should have taken hours of work was completed in 10 mins. Needless to say she enjoyed an over 90% average in the end of year maths mark despite having barely passed pass Leaving Cert maths. This was a trick used by all the students in this class in several online assesments and a source of much hilarity it seems. I have no doubt but the lecturer was aware it was being used too but that having well performing students looked good on his work record too so he was happy to perpetuate the lie.

We are going to sell our international reputation down the swanny if this continues and there will be consequences for employment and investment here. The only people benefiting from the current system are lazy lecturers unwilling to actually teach and challenge their students and yet want a good performance record in their exam students and not have the boat rocked in their cosy pensionable jobs.

UCDVet

The_Captain wrote: »

1-bed apartment is a funny name to give your penis

To clarify, my penis is tiny, but it's name is 'McLovin'.
My 1-bedroom apartment is also quite small though.

Zubeneschamali

Peist2007 wrote: »

I think it is reasonable to expect things to jump in university. Didnt really happen.

Doesn't really happen anywhere -staff are generally more focussed on research, not teaching. Most have no qualifications in teaching whatsoever.

Peist2007

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Doesn't really happen anywhere -staff are generally more focussed on research, not teaching. Most have no qualifications in teaching whatsoever.

But if i joined Microsoft tomorrow i'd expect those there to teach someone like myself starting out. Not being qualified to teach isnt a free pass actually. Non-teachers are teaching in workplaces all around the world right now. I did it myself today. If it is the area you are professionally qualified in then it should naturally follow that you can impart some wisdom on it. Especially if you are an actual lecturer.

shruikan2553

Those ratings are great and all but how did they measure the quality of teaching?

The_Valeyard

Someone said that Germany does not have any universities on the list........they seem to be doing just fine.




F**k that list.

full_irish

Deleted User wrote: »

I studied in a course that has at least 99% graduate employment rate every year since 1994. I studied in Aberdeen. A first class honour degree from any university is more valuable than a second class honour degree from Cambridge. My profession (pharmacy) is so far ahead in the UK compared to Ireland. It is not even funny.

R G WHO???

smash

Paddy Cosgrave must be creaming his pants that Trinity are still top. For people who don't know him, he's the founder of The Summit Dublin and stated in an interview that he'd hire someone who got a lower grade from Trinity over someone who got a top grade from another college because it means more.

RDM_83 again

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The reason the Irish colleges are falling is down to a lack of money. The quality of teaching in an institution is almost irrelevant to these rankings - most weight goes on the research output and repution of the university.

Since Irish universities have had their research funding slashed, and there is basically no standard career path for academics in Ireland, unlike the tenure track system in the USA, the reputation of Irish universities is dropping.

Here is an example of the real reason Irish universities are falling down the rankings. Just remember, rankings have almost nothing to do with the quality of education you get from a university, be it good, bad or indifferent.

At a guess its also because Irish Universities might be less ruthless than some of those in the UK, I've a friend doing a post-doc in one of the top 5 and he was talking the last time he was home about how staff will get the sack if in 2 years they aren't completely self funding (with very very little wiggle room), and how as a post-grad and that happens to one of your bosses your pretty fcuked. I'm not sure anyone should pay too much attention to the rankings to select a university if your under-grad and even if your a post-grad there can be negatives.
I've spent time in TCD, UCD and NUIG doing various stuff and though it might label me as a snob TCD did seem to take things a lot more serious than the other two, NUIG while it had great staff didn't even have anonymous marking when I was there :rolleyes:

suicide_circus

The standards in lecturing have really taken a dive. I sat in on a friends business lecture in DIT for the laugh there about 6 months back having not been in a lecture theatre in years. The "lecturer" stood there, and I shiit you not, wearing a BASEBALL CAP and gazing at the floor, mumbled incoherently through the notes (available online) word for word. He did not take questions. He did not pose questions. It was surreal and would have been comical had it not been such an absolute thundering disgrace.
Spoke to my friend and her classmates after, this guy wasnt even their worst lecturer - at least he showed up! Any complaints they made to the college via the SU or individually were met with arrogance and disdain.

Aongus Von Bismarck

smash wrote: »

Paddy Cosgrave must be creaming his pants that Trinity are still top. For people who don't know him, he's the founder of The Summit Dublin and stated in an interview that he'd hire someone who got a lower grade from Trinity over someone who got a top grade from another college because it means more.

That's because it does.

The calibre of students coming out of Irish universities over the past decade is absolutely disgraceful. Places like Smurfit and NUI Galway's business school have just become glorified diploma mills.

Fat Christy

UCDVet wrote: »

In my experiences with UCD - I feel like the ratings should be lower.

Don't get me wrong, lots of smart Professors and all that jazz. But, I don't think they could be any lazier or more disorganized....

I did my undergrad in DCU and I am currently doing a post-grad in UCD part time! UCD are unbelievably disorganized and I hate the campus! Drives me up the fcuking walls!

shruikan2553

suicide_circus wrote: »

The standards in lecturing have really taken a dive. I sat in on a friends business lecture in DIT for the laugh there about 6 months back having not been in a lecture theatre in years. The "lecturer" stood there, and I shiit you not, wearing a BASEBALL CAP and gazing at the floor, mumbled incoherently through the notes (available online) word for word. He did not take questions. He did not pose questions. It was surreal and would have been comical had it not been such an absolute thundering disgrace.
Spoke to my friend and her classmates after, this guy wasnt even their worst lecturer - at least he showed up! Any complaints they made to the college via the SU or individually were met with arrogance and disdain.

This is true from my experience. Some lecturers are great, some are acceptable and then you get these. If part of their job is to teach they should probably make sure these people can teach. The notes are from over 5 years ago and still have errors.

aidoh

Considering there are thousands of universities on the planet, and considering they only rank the top 400 out of those thousands of universities, I think we're doing grand. Could and should be better but the country doesn't have the funds to attract researchers and students, hence the drop in rankings for TCD and UCD specifically over the last few years.

Iwasfrozen

Fat Christy wrote: »

I did my undergrad in DCU and I am currently doing a post-grad in UCD part time! UCD are unbelievably disorganized and I hate the campus! Drives me up the fcuking walls!

You'll get used to it. I hated it to when I first went but I grew to love it.

Iwasfrozen

aidoh wrote: »

Considering there are thousands of universities on the planet, and considering they only rank the top 400 out of those thousands of universities, I think we're doing grand. Could and should be better but the country doesn't have the funds to attract researchers and students, hence the drop in rankings for TCD and UCD specifically over the last few years.

If we abandoned the pretence of government funded third level education we could.

Tail Docker

anncoates wrote: »

It's a bit of stretch to say that nobody that studied in an Irish university (or any other university outside the top ranked ones) isn't in a prestigious, highly enumerated career.

I'd say that's one of the problems with our graduates. The incoherence of their written output. I see it at work, e-mails from highly qualified people with the spelling and grammar of a primary school kid. "This process is to been wached by cctv" was a jewel one chap e-mailed me today.

Fat Christy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You'll get used to it. I hated it to when I first went but I grew to love it.

I've been there over a year at this stage, still hate it. I'm never going to get used to it. I like my course and fortunately I'm not in that kip too much as we do a lot of field work so it's grand! Last set of lectures in October.

spurious

They give you notes in university now? In my day you attended the lecture and took your own notes. No wonder some say standards have dropped.

DuchessduJour

spurious wrote: »

They give you notes in university now? In my day you attended the lecture and took your own notes. No wonder some say standards have dropped.

Not in my experience, and I just finished up this year. I honestly think if anyone had asked any of my lecturers to provide us with notes they'd have thought it was a joke. We were always expected to have read the relevant cases/statutes or academic commentary ourselves, and analyse and interpret materials so that we could provide a critical and thought-provoking account of what we learned. College, in my experience, was academic heaven. I found it a genuinely stimulating environment and could never fully explain how much I learned, or how it changed the way I think.

That said, I was always aware that I was part of a truly excellent department of an excellent university. Even in my college, friends in other courses had different experiences and I know of a few degrees where certain modules were done because the lecturer provided notes which if learned off would guarantee a decent mark at the end of the year. So I think it has as much to do with the course and department that you're in as the college.

ToddyDoody

I did all my third level education in nuig. Bad point: I bet I could have learned more.... but had enough to get in the door of my career (eventually) and have a (guilt-based) interest to learn as I go along. Good point: I've never known graduates to have too big an opinion of themselves, which is good because graduates really do start out at the bottom despite the qualification(s)

Henry Sidney

ToddyDoody wrote: »

I did all my third level education in nuig. Bad point: I bet I could have learned more but had enough to get in the door or my career, have an interest and learn as I go along. Good point: I've never known graduates to have too big an opinion of themselves, which is good because graduates really do start out at the bottom despite the qualification(s)

Depends where you graduate from. My nephew just graduated from Imperial College London and went straight into a managerial role on £80k+. Last year his sister graduated from Exeter University and indeed went into an almost entry level job.

The quality of your college makes a huge difference to your prospects.

ToddyDoody

Henry Sidney wrote: »

Depends where you graduate from. My nephew just graduated from Imperial College London and went straight into a managerial role on £80k+. Last yeah his sister graduated from Exeter University and indeed went into an almost entry level job.

The quality of your college makes a huge difference to your prospects.

Oh well. Darwinian selection I guess.

Da Shins Kelly

In my experience with NUIG, their English department is really great - very good, approachable lecturers, good variety in material while also covering the essentials of English literature (Shakespeare etc.) and a good mix of exam assessment and essays and presentation. They also offer an option to capable final years to do an independent project which is a great opportunity for students interested in pursuing postgraduate study. I think the ranking of the NUIG English department has been quite good in recent years, which would be in keeping with my experience with them.

I wouldn't lend too much credence to the overall university rankings though.

sock puppet

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

That's because it does.

The calibre of students coming out of Irish universities over the past decade is absolutely disgraceful. Places like Smurfit and NUI Galway's business school have just become glorified diploma mills.

Huh? Smurfit is a mid ranking school in the ft top 100. Im not sure if its ever been considered a top tier business school? I can't imagine nuig has ever even registered on any ranking anywhere so not sure of the decline there.

Ave Sodalis

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Blame free fees. The government just isn't able to afford to keep our universities in adequate condition.

If the Irish government wants to reverse this thread they must abandon the idea of universal third level education and introduce and interest free loan system.

Third level education should be a privilege anyway.

:rolleyes:
Yeah, I can't imagine what the point is in a better education population... We should definitely just keep it to the rich and those who can afford it because, you know, they're the only smart people in the world. What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the brain of someone who can't afford education? God, I hate that backward view that third level is a privilege...

Hulk Hands

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

That's because it does.

The calibre of students coming out of Irish universities over the past decade is absolutely disgraceful. Places like Smurfit and NUI Galway's business school have just become glorified diploma mills.

You're saying a 1.1 from UCD, NUIG etc isnt worth as much a lower comparable degree from Trinity? LOL

RubyRoss

SpaceTime wrote: »

I forgot that.

There were US students in the library asking if this was normal and generally quite shocked.

Many people have paid a LOT of money and it's fairly reasonable to expect an "academic environment" rather than a music festival I think.

It's Freshers' Week - new students with no classes. Maybe later in the year you would have a point but right now, lighten up and let 17 and 18 year olds enjoy their first week in college.

FloatingVoter

The education racket has gone on long enough. A degree is the new inter cert. We're educating people to the point where the only thing they're qualified to do is "educate" the next bunch of lemmings.
Until people get the letters after your name fixation out of their heads its a vicious circle. Watch the Leaving Cert thread and watch the failures of the future drift aimlessly into IT something or other because "Dats where de jobs are".
League tables are about as reliable as Top of the Pops and that was done away with because it was fixable, unreliable and nobody gave a toss anymore.

DEFTLEFTHAND

sup_dude wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Yeah, I can't imagine what the point is in a better education population... We should definitely just keep it to the rich and those who can afford it because, you know, they're the only smart people in the world. What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the brain of someone who can't afford education? God, I hate that backward view that third level is a privilege...

He's not suggesting that people should be excluded from third level. He's proposing that a government loan system be introduced, to be payed back once the individual begins earning.

Soft Falling Rain

Henry Sidney wrote: »

Depends where you graduate from. My nephew just graduated from Imperial College London and went straight into a managerial role on £80k+. Last year his sister graduated from Exeter University and indeed went into an almost entry level job.

The quality of your college makes a huge difference to your prospects.

80k starting salary straight out of Uni? In a job where he's in charge of people even though he's no previous experience?

Yeah, I don't believe it.