NPPR

Long Gone

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the real world, the actual facts are that most developed countries - including Australia - have property taxes that are many times heavier than the NPPR, and that are collected much more vigorously. .

The issue is not a general one regarding property tax. The issue, and the subject of this thread is specifically NPPR - An unfair, penal tax imposed on people who owned property which was not their Principal Residence. This disproportionately affected Irish emigrants who have been forced to emigrate but have retained property in Ireland which they consequently cannot live in as their primary residence. Clear enough for you so far ? ?

Peregrinus wrote: »

As far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

That is absolute and complete Horlicks ! :rolleyes: Corporation Tax in Ireland may be low but in terms of personal taxation Ireland is internationally recognised as being very much a high taxation country - The basic rates of taxation are high, then on top of that you have levies, high VAT and a whole meriad of stealth taxes. The reason ? - They need to service and try to pay off some of the huge national debt. Ireland is not only completely broke but up to it's eyeballs in debt.

Long Gone

catbear wrote: »

@peregrinus. I couldn't have said it better. Some people expect to be able to be absent from a society yet expect that society to maintain the basic public services for their rented property without paying charges.

Rubbish ! :rolleyes: This thread is specifically about the now abolished NPPR - An unfair and penal tax.

Landlords are now paying local property tax and tax on their rental income. Tenants are paying water charges and charges for other services.

Esel

Long Gone wrote: »

Rubbish ! :rolleyes: This thread is specifically about the now abolished NPPR - An unfair and penal tax.

The tax itself was very reasonable - it is only the penalties that are penal.

Little comfort, I know, for people who for whatever reason let the arrears build to the current monstrous levels (€4K+ / €7K+).

I am not affected, but I really hope those charges above are challenged and struck down somehow.

Peregrinus

Long Gone wrote: »

The issue is not a general one regarding property tax. The issue, and the subject of this thread is specifically NPPR - An unfair, penal tax imposed on people who owned property which was not their Principal Residence. This disproportionately affected Irish emigrants who have been forced to emigrate but have retained property in Ireland which they consequently cannot live in as their primary residence. Clear enough for you so far ? ?

It may be true that the NPPR disproportionately affects emigrants. On the other hand, it only affects those who retain property in Ireland, and who therefore continue to benefit from Irish public expenditure.

Long Gone wrote: »

That is absolute and complete Horlicks ! :rolleyes: Corporation Tax in Ireland may be low but in terms of personal taxation Ireland is internationally recognised as being very much a high taxation country - The basic rates of taxation are high, then on top of that you have levies, high VAT and a whole meriad of stealth taxes. The reason ? - They need to service and try to pay off some of the huge national debt. Ireland is not only completely broke but up to it's eyeballs in debt.

What I said was that the tax cost of owning property in Ireland is extremely low by comparison with other countries, and this is true. If you think personal income taxes are too high, do you not also think that this might be in some way connected with Ireland's extremely narrow tax base, which is partly the result of having practically no property taxes?

In any event, your perception about Irish income tax rates is not entirely true. During the boom years, Ireland was at the lower end of the scale for personal income tax rates, relative to other OECD countries. Now, we've moved up a bit, but we're still well below the OECD average. If you want high personal taxes you need to go to France, Sweden or Japan. That we suffer high income tax is one of the national myths that we fondly cherish about ourselves but, actually, it hasn't been true since the early 1990s.

Long Gone

Peregrinus wrote: »

What I said was that the tax cost of owning property in Ireland is extremely low by comparison with other countries, and this is true.

That might be what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said in your post (which I quoted)...

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you think personal income taxes are too high, do you not also think that this might be in some way connected with Ireland's extremely narrow tax base, which is partly the result of having practically no property taxes?.

It's due to the national debt, too few taxpayers and too many hangers on and parasites living off them. It's also due to government overspending and waste on a massive scale.

Peregrinus wrote: »

In any event, your perception about Irish income tax rates is not entirely true. During the boom years, Ireland was at the lower end of the scale for personal income tax rates, relative to other OECD countries. Now, we've moved up a bit, but we're still well below the OECD average. If you want high personal taxes you need to go to France, Sweden or Japan. That we suffer high income tax is one of the national myths that we fondly cherish about ourselves but, actually, it hasn't been true since the early 1990s.

Not true. Basic personal taxation rates are extremely deceptive. Irish taxpayers are hit by a whole range of stealth taxes now - The effective taxation rate on Irish taxpayers is at the high end of the OECD countries. http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database.htm#OtherTaxBurden How could it be otherwise given the enormous debts that Irish taxpayers have been saddled with.

Peregrinus

Long Gone wrote: »

That might be what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said in your post (which I quoted)...

What I said in my post was:

Peregrinus wrote: »

Giri is discouraged from returning to Ireland by the prospect of having to pay property tax. In fact, she can live anywhere she likes and avoid liability to property tax by simply not owning any property. If she aspires to own property, however, she'll find that as far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

In quoting my post, you edited out all references to property tax and owning property. In its unedited version, however, my claim is very clearly a claim about the tax cost of owning property.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not true. Basic personal taxation rates are extremely deceptive. Irish taxpayers are hit by a whole range of stealth taxes now - The effective taxation rate on Irish taxpayers is at the high end of the OECD countries. http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database.htm#OtherTaxBurden How could it be otherwise given the enormous debts that Irish taxpayers have been saddled with.

I don’t know that the data you link to really helps your case, Long Gone. When I check the “All-in average personal income tax rates at average wage by family type” table, and compare the position of a one-earner family with two children, I find that the highest tax rate is in in Denmark (34.6%), the lowest is in the Czech Republic (5.5%) and Ireland (11.1%) is well down towards the bottom - we’re 28th out of 35. The all-in rates measured in the table “include income tax and employee social security contributions, as well as total marginal and average personal 'tax wedges' which in addition include employer social security contributions”.

Now, granted you might get radically different results if you look at single taxpayers, or at childless couples, or at people on other than average earnings, but that’s not my impression from a quick look at the tables.

Long Gone

Peregrinus wrote: »

In quoting my post, you edited out all references to property tax and owning property. In its unedited version, however, my claim is very clearly a claim about the tax cost of owning property.

Not so - In fact it was not clear at all. In your post you claimed that tax was low in Ireland. Read your own original post.

This entire thread is about NPPR Tax and owning property, but people reading your post are not mind readers as regards what you actually meant - Your claim that it was obvious that the tax you were referring to was property tax and not tax in general (which includes personal taxation) holds no water whatsoever to any impartial unbiased observer.

Peregrinus

Long Gone wrote: »

Not so - In fact it was not clear at all. In your post you claimed that tax was low in Ireland. Read your own original post.

I have reread my original post,and I quoted it above. Let me quote it again, this time in full, and helpfully emphasising the bits you are overlooking:

Peregrinus wrote: »

The point is that giri's claim, in post #9, was that "in any other country in europe, or most of the developed world, there'd be war over something like this, and it would end. Not in Ireland."

In the real world, the actual facts are that most developed countries - including Australia - have property taxes that are many times heavier than the NPPR, and that are collected much more vigorously.

Although giri has lived in nine other countries, she hasn't noticed this - presumably, because she has never owned property in any of them.

Giri is discouraged from returning to Ireland by the prospect of having to pay property tax. In fact, she can live anywhere she likes and avoid liability to property tax by simply not owning any property. If she aspires to own property, however, she'll find that as far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

It's a post about property tax. I honestly couldn't see how it could be more clearly about property tax than it already is.

donaghs

Anyone successfully appeal or reduce an NPPR charge?