Email from ASTI....

man_no_plan

Kalimera wrote: »

Circular expected soon but redeployment must be completed before either CIDs may be awarded or any position interviewed or any appointments made.

Anyone hired this Sept has to be re interviewed either way also even if there isn't a redeployment. It will be very tough on some who are unfortunate enough to be in a school near an over quota school.

sitstill

We have our Circular:

https://voiceforteachersblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/cid_circular_post_primary_0022-2015_ward-report.pdf

:-)

markjh

Just spotted also... Any reason why it's not on Department website yet??

sitstill

markjh wrote: »

Just spotted also... Any reason why it's not on Department website yet??

No idea. They might just be slow getting them up there. Its number 22/2015 and the latest one on the site is 20/2015.

markjh

sitstill wrote: »

No idea. They might just be slow getting them up there. Its number 22/2015 and the latest one on the site is 20/2015.

I see... It's great news either way!

man_no_plan

There's a bit of reading in it though!

The improved conditions only apply if you were covering secondment or Career break in effect so not all teachers will be in under this circular.

I may read it again in the morning, very confusing!!!

awny

It says about being in second year covering reckonable leave but what if you have 11 of your own hours and 11 career break (2nd year in school) but had 11 hours of own hours and 11 maternity leave last year? Trying to find out for someone else!

markjh

awny wrote: »

It says about being in second year covering reckonable leave but what if you have 11 of your own hours and 11 career break (2nd year in school) but had 11 hours of own hours and 11 maternity leave last year? Trying to find out for someone else!

They will be entitled to 22 hour CID in Sept I think. I've been to union meetings and the message is always that it's only the hours in the year before the CID that actually matter. The hours in previous years are irrelevant.

The only thing about the career break is that the teacher covering faces redeployment when the teacher returns from career break if surplus to requirements.

man_no_plan

markjh wrote: »

They will be entitled to 22 hour CID in Sept I think. I've been to union meetings and the message is always that it's only the hours in the year before the CID that actually matter. The hours in previous years are irrelevant.

The only thing about the career break is that the teacher covering faces redeployment when the teacher returns from career break if surplus to requirements.

The mat leave isn't reckonable but as markjh days its in the first year, the reference year now is the second year. So all the hours are up for grabs on the face of it.

I would caution that this may be a sticky one as the redeployment question comes up, only 11 hours are career break but you can't be half redeployed.

There will be a lot of arbitration before this is ironed out I think.

man_no_plan

Voice for teachers have withdrawn the circular. Apparently only a draft. There is still some negotiation ongoing it seems.

On their facebook page

starfish90

If after these negotiations it remains unchanged,does anyone know if job sharers might benefit from it at all?

sitstill

The (official) circular finally was released today:

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/significant-gain-for-temporary-teachers//back_to/asti-home/

man_no_plan

I'm not sure that this is great news. Looks like anyone hired this year will be let go and reinterviewed according to this. Mix this with redeployment and you have a recipe for displacement of loads of new teachers with over quota in other schools.

TheDriver

Looks like no surprise in that circular to be honest, exactly as expected.

sitstill

I notice that as well as the Circular, the Dept has this form on its website:

http://education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Popular-forms/ta_form_cid_11a.pdf

"APPLICATION FOR DEPARTMENT SANCTION FOR THE AWARD TO A TEACHER, FOR THE FIRST TIME, OF A CONTRACT
OF INDEFINITE DURATION (CID) IN THE 2015/16 SCHOOL YEAR UNDER THE TERMS OF CIRCULAR 0024/2015"

It says that it has to be returned to the Dept by the 8th of May.

Anyone who is looking at getting a CID in September would want to make sure their Principal knows of this fairly tight deadline.

Does anyone know then whether teachers who have had this form sent off are guaranteed their CID then or could somebody still be redeployed into their job? In previous years we have only heard about redeployments in school from about mid May.

wolfyboy555

Does this circular effect those who would be a due a CID on the old system. I am 3 years in school going into my 4th year so would be due a CID. Does this circular effect me in anyway?

sitstill

wolfyboy555 wrote: »

Does this circular effect those who would be a due a CID on the old system. I am 3 years in school going into my 4th year so would be due a CID. Does this circular effect me in anyway?

It does. If you look at the form there are a number of options including:

This teacher will be eligible for a CID as, in the 2014/15 school year, s/he is in:

the third or more year of continuous employment in a post with the same employer

... So that would be you.

linguist

It's a pity the unions didn't bother getting an faq up because I'm sure lots of people have these questions. Indeed, I'm finally in this situation myself - three years done - and the extra delay waiting for the circular has been unpleasant and stressful.

sitstill, the earlier circulars regarding CIDs, which this latest circular builds on, state that where a teacher qualifies for a CID and a vacancy exists, the options open to the school authority are, in order (i) offer a CID to the teacher, (ii) offer the vacancy for redeployment, (iii) offer the hours to another fixed term teacher in the school. Therefore, the logical conclusion to be drawn would be that you are not at risk of redeployment into your post where you qualify for a CID and your employer wishes to award you one. Also, we should bear in mind that even if CIDs could not be applied for in advance of the new circular, schools have already notified the DES of their vacancies and flagged up vacancies that are to be awarded CIDs in forms returned to the Department in early March.

I entirely agree about making sure principals know about the new deadline and I'll be mentioning it to my own as soon as we go back.

joebloggs32

linguist wrote: »

It's a pity the unions didn't bother getting an faq up because I'm sure lots of people have these questions. Indeed, I'm finally in this situation myself - three years done - and the extra delay waiting for the circular has been unpleasant and stressful.

sitstill, the earlier circulars regarding CIDs, which this latest circular builds on, state that where a teacher qualifies for a CID and a vacancy exists, the options open to the school authority are, in order (i) offer a CID to the teacher, (ii) offer the vacancy for redeployment, (iii) offer the hours to another fixed term teacher in the school. Therefore, the logical conclusion to be drawn would be that you are not at risk of redeployment into your post where you qualify for a CID and your employer wishes to award you one. Also, we should bear in mind that even if CIDs could not be applied for in advance of the new circular, schools have already notified the DES of their vacancies and flagged up vacancies that are to be awarded CIDs in forms returned to the Department in early March.

I entirely agree about making sure principals know about the new deadline and I'll be mentioning it to my own as soon as we go back.

The TUI covered this in their magazine in January or February

r93kaey5p2izun

Will teachers with part time CID who have always been given other hours pro-rata now be interviewed each year for those extra hours?

chases0102

Hi folks,

Someone might be able to advise me before we go back after the Easter Break.

I'm in my second year covering a career break. Up until very recently, I believed that the teacher I was covering for wasn't returning in September, that he had applied for a third year.

However a colleague of mine had informed me that this teacher had his application for a third year rejected.

Just wondering, where does that leave me in relation to September? Have I any hope of a position, either in the school, or on this panel that the new circular stipulates? The position I'm covering for currently is for 21.5 hours.

Thanks I'm advance folks; just a tad worried that I'll be on the job hunt come June.

sitstill

chases0102 wrote: »

Hi folks,

Someone might be able to advise me before we go back after the Easter Break.

I'm in my second year covering a career break. Up until very recently, I believed that the teacher I was covering for wasn't returning in September, that he had applied for a third year.

However a colleague of mine had informed me that this teacher had his application for a third year rejected.

Just wondering, where does that leave me in relation to September? Have I any hope of a position, either in the school, or on this panel that the new circular stipulates? The position I'm covering for currently is for 21.5 hours.

Thanks I'm advance folks; just a tad worried that I'll be on the job hunt come June.

The circular doesn't actually set up a panel unfortunately. It seems like in your situation, the best case would be if any other hours came up in your subject in your school next year, that way you'd still get the CID based on this year's hours. You really should have a chat with your Principal next week.

You might be best to have a look out when jobs start to be advertised in May/June just in case.

chases0102

Thanks a million sitstill, for that. Will do.

linguist

joebloggs32: The circular - which is all that matters - was only issued on 27th March. What appeared in a union newsletter prior to that is irrelevant.

chases0102: Sorry to hear about your uncertainty. Obviously everyone from the unions has decamped to the conventions but my actual suggestion would be a chat with a union official first next week to get their stance before hearing what your principal says. For once, the shoe would appear to be on the teacher's foot and appearing informed and ready to vindicate your rights might be no harm. However, it is generally true that the school has to offer you another contract and thus a CID, i.e. they could try to refuse you a contract because the other teacher is returning. If any of your hours are your own or outside of the other teacher's qualifications/usual subjects, I'd say you have a chance.

arlessienne: If you have a read back over the circular, it states that additional hours can now be added to a CID after one year. So that would appear to clarify that no re-interviewing should be necessary. You need to go and lay claim to your additional hours with the principal next week!

r93kaey5p2izun

linguist wrote: »

arlessienne: If you have a read back over the circular, it states that additional hours can now be added to a CID after one year. So that would appear to clarify that no re-interviewing should be necessary. You need to go and lay claim to your additional hours with the principal next week!

Ok thanks. Glad to hear half the staffroom won't need to be re-interviewed every year but as ever with the ETB the hours are fixed purpose and won't count towards an improved CID.

linguist

Well the answer I gave was based on my understanding of the question you asked. If you're sure that they won't count towards a CID then I can imagine there might be a little question mark over their status. No point worrying in the middle of the holidays. Check with the union and the principal in whichever order you think is best. It would seem to go against the spirit of the circular - let's put it that way - for a CID holding teacher to have to be re-interviewed like that.

The broader question though is: what do you mean by fixed purpose? Because if it's covering a career break or a secondment then it seems clear that they absolutely do count towards an improved CID, particularly where the teacher isn't returning. If it is a combination of hours - career break and job-sharing for example - then they also count since the circular makes it very clear that in a combination of hours scenario, all hours are to be reckoned. Read Pat King's speech to the ASTI convention on asti.ie today to read that point. If the hours are all jobshare, sick leave, maternity leave that's where you might have a problem. However, since the unions are pretty buoyant that the circular leaves very few actual exclusions I think you should put up a fight:)

r93kaey5p2izun

This year the hours are job share. Last year they were NBSS. The previous year they were career break. The year before that from some extra allocation not the main scheme etc etc.

Half the school is on part time CID and most everyone receives more hours pro rata every year. These hours are always labelled with objective grounds - the reasons change and rotate around among people each year.

None of us know what we may have next year - it could go up or down - but I'm wondering if we will now have to interview for any extra hours. Except the lucky two who happen to have "career break" written on their contract this year - they've got the golden ticket with this circular.

linguist

If the jobshare is not in your subject area then the adjudication/rights commissioner process has found over the years that they have no bearing on you. If a Home Ec teacher has gone on jobshare and you've been given three extra hours of Irish (as an example) with jobshare written on your contract, such a process will determine, based on previous cases, that your work is not a replacement for the other teacher and does not preclude you from obtaining a CID or in this case an enhanced one. So you need to establish the facts regarding this objective ground and push for the CID if possible. I know that can be hard in an ETB where it could be another teacher two counties away but the onus is on them to justify a failure to award a CID and the adjudication/rights commissioner process has afforded the teacher the benefit of the doubt in many cases.