Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

I'm confused.

If we're not trying to implement this player led culture, why are we discussing it? Where did this notion come from?

I'm not sure if we are or are not. IBF seems to think we are and some of the comments from the coaches and players in the last few months could be construed that way. But in all reality we simply don't know if that is the case,

Neil3030 wrote: »

I guess my confusion lies in where the line is drawn. The heavily structured coach-led Schmidt system still allows for the 9 or 10 to chose from a selection of options. If there's space in behind, kick, if there's space out wide, pass, etc. Take the back-door, the loop, the skip, etc.

Contrast that to Leinster last night, particularly in the first half, where you saw the type of play that has been so typical and so frustrating under this coaching regime, i.e. the aimlessly toing and froing across the pitch. I noticed that both the structure of the back line and the inevitable path of the ball was very linear - very seldom did the back line assume pod formations allowing for a backdoor option, very seldom did they send a decoy runner back the other way to keep the defense honest, very seldom did anyone try straighten to get go forward ball. Just predictable progression of passes from 9 out to the flanks, clear out, recycle and go back the other way. My question is, is THIS coach or player led? Are the players calling for this linear predictable backline play, or is this imparted by the coaches? And when are these decisions being made? On the field?

I take your point in your response to the second question.

Honestly, I have no idea myself. I would assume the general idea of looking for space out wide is coming from the top down but that the players are expected to be doing more themselves to find that. But that's just guesswork really. As you said there's little in the way of real variation or subtlety or misdirection. It's all pretty predictable. And we don't seem to be doing anything about it. For me even if the players aren't doing what's expected of them on the field there surely comes a time when the coaches have to acknowledge that changes are required. Just like the inaccuracies, if it happens for a game or two you've got to question the players but if if happens for a month or two you need to start looking at the coaches.

ssaye2

Dragons result hurt
Glasgow v Ospreys now huge

vienne86

ssaye2 wrote: »

Dragons result hurt
Glasgow v Ospreys now huge

Glasgow certainly looking the better side in the first 15 minutes - 7-0 up.

.ak

ssaye2 wrote: »

Dragons result hurt
Glasgow v Ospreys now huge

If Scarlett's had one it might not have been too bad but now I see us struggling to get into the top 4. We'll need two massive results in Wales to go our way.

Buer

Next week is a make or break game for us. The bad news is that it's on a test match weekend.

But the good news is that it's on a test match weekend.

We'll lose a huge glut of players. However, those that remain are still of a decent standard. We should be able to put out a team of (hopefully): Bent, Strauss, Furlong, McCarthy, Douglas, Ryan, Jennings, Conan, Boss/Reddan, Gopperth, Kearney, D'Arcy, Te'o, McFadden, Kirchner.

The Ospreys will lose AWJ, Tipuric, Baldwin, Lydiate, Jarvis, Webb and Biggar leaving them with a well drilled but workmanlike side. If we cut out our recent errors, we definitely have the capability to beat them. That's a massive if, though.

Neil3030

When is Ruddock back?

irishbucsfan

I'm doubtful that we'll have Reddan available and I think that may make a huge difference. It'll be close but we're going to need to take points when they're available.

Thinking of heading over to the game myself if I get some free time to do so.

vienne86

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm doubtful that we'll have Reddan available and I think that may make a huge difference. It'll be close but we're going to need to take points when they're available.

Thinking of heading over to the game myself if I get some free time to do so.

No, I'd say it'll be Boss starting. To be fair, he has been much better on his last couple of outings.

Buer

Just watching the tries again, McFadden must be one of the worst kickers from hand that has been a regular international. He makes Shane Horgan look like Colm Cooper. The kick that led to their try was awful. No pressure at all. He got no real distance, found no space, allowed no chase and gave their entire back division the ball against an offside team with a big openside to exploit.

The forward coaching really needs a stern examination. Our maul is in complete disarray. We tried to maul over a minute or two before Ryan's try and it was splintering all over the place with no cohesion whatsoever. Conan, who took the line out, was easily levered away from those behind him and two of his forwards followed him, leaving only 4 players with the ball, two of which (Ryan and Douglas) were completely upright. Where's the communication? Who is organising the pack and instructing them? Where was Reddan?

Coupled with the ruck work, we need to take a long look at our forward play quickly. Last season, we were beating teams up in the pack despite things misfiring behind. This season, we're all over the place at times up front and cough up a serious amount of ball or provide very scrappy ball to our halfbacks.

We're not cynical enough either in defence. We seem to be trusting our defence a lot to absorb pressure and hold firm. That's all well and good but it's also risky. All it takes is one communication error or missed tackle to allow a big line break due to the lack of pressure in the defensive line. Zebre were offside half the night and sacked our scrum half several times from offside positions with the man being well past the hindmost foot when our halfback was only lifting the ball. Below is about the third time he was taken out at the ruck. Number 22 is charging at him, Reddan has just put his hands on the ball.



On the plus side, D'Arcy was very tidy and continually kept doing things simply and slickly (the reverse to Te'o knees aside). He knew when to give and when to hold on as the pass had been closed down. He tidied up a lot of crap ball too. The Ryan try was a thing of beauty from Te'o and Fitzgerald. Scrum looked powerful too which was good to see. The only time our scrum has consistently looked in a bit of bother this season has been with Ross on the field, unfortunately.

.ak

I can't see us getting Boss or Reddan, the ireland game is a home game and we play sprays first. Both will be in cotton wool.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Just watching the tries again, McFadden must be one of the worst kickers from hand that has been a regular international. He makes Shane Horgan look like Colm Cooper. The kick that led to their try was awful. No pressure at all. He got no real distance, found no space, allowed no chase and gave their entire back division the ball against an offside team with a big openside to exploit.

Ah hes not that bad, I know they arent the same but hes a brilliant kicker from the tee and he generally gets the job done when hes kicking from hand. There must be a lot worse than him, there has to be

vienne86

Buer wrote: »

The forward coaching really needs a stern examination. Our maul is in complete disarray. We tried to maul over a minute or two before Ryan's try and it was splintering all over the place with no cohesion whatsoever. Conan, who took the line out, was easily levered away from those behind him and two of his forwards followed him, leaving only 4 players with the ball, two of which (Ryan and Douglas) were completely upright. Where's the communication? Who is organising the pack and instructing them? Where was Reddan?

Coupled with the ruck work, we need to take a long look at our forward play quickly. Last season, we were beating teams up in the pack despite things misfiring behind. This season, we're all over the place at times up front and cough up a serious amount of ball or provide very scrappy ball to our halfbacks.

I presume this is Cullen's patch. We were pretty awful with the maul on Friday night.....and we used to be so god at this.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

Ah hes not that bad, I know they arent the same but hes a brilliant kicker from the tee and he generally gets the job done when hes kicking from hand. There must be a lot worse than him, there has to be

Yeah, that's something of hyperbole but I've never been a fan of him when he tries to kick from deep. He can actually put up a nice little chip over a defender but he's awful at trying to clear his lines, to my mind.

Buer

Very encouraging cameo from Ross Molony too. Was great for him to get 20 minutes as a 20 year old lock. I tracked him during his 20 minutes on the field and I was most impressed with his hunger. He got through a lot of work in his spell, making a lot of rucks and, whenever he made a tackle, he was bouncing back to his feet and back into the defensive line. Good to see. We went to him a couple of times in the line out too which suggests he has been training fairly heavily with the team and has gained the trust of his fellow forwards. Was barking at Boss too in the mauls.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

If Scarlett's had one it might not have been too bad but now I see us struggling to get into the top 4. We'll need two massive results in Wales to go our way.

Would the coaching ticket survive if we failed to make the playoffs?

Would HAVE to achieve a semi final to compensate but even then...

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Would the coaching ticket survive if we failed to make the playoffs?

Would HAVE to achieve a semi final to compensate but even then...

Grey area but I would say MOC would remain with potentially some amendments to the staff overall in terms of their roles. The home QF in the ECC will have probably been enough to get him the final year.

total former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would the coaching ticket survive if we failed to make the playoffs?

Yes. As they should.

If anyone is to get the bullet it's Leo I'm afraid.

Now; form an orderly queue to express your outrage at the above, no pushing please.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Very encouraging cameo from Ross Molony too. Was great for him to get 20 minutes as a 20 year old lock. I tracked him during his 20 minutes on the field and I was most impressed with his hunger. He got through a lot of work in his spell, making a lot of rucks and, whenever he made a tackle, he was bouncing back to his feet and back into the defensive line. Good to see. We went to him a couple of times in the line out too which suggests he has been training fairly heavily with the team and has gained the trust of his fellow forwards. Was barking at Boss too in the mauls.

I really like what Ive seen of the academy forwards coming through in terms of ball handling, keeping the ball moving and shifting the point of attack, they all (Molony, Furlong, Conan, Leavy, VdF, Byrne brothers etc) seem to have a really good understanding and skillset with the ball in their hands. The way they play in the B&I Cup has to help this massively, even if the opposition isnt always up to much

Bit surprised Conan hasnt got more of a mention for how he played, I was impressed by him again

Tox56

total former wrote: »

Yes. As they should.

If anyone is to get the bullet it's Leo I'm afraid.

If they're giving MOC 3 years I find it hard to believe theyd discard Leo after only 1, although I dont think he was the right appointment at all

errlloyd

Tox56 wrote: »

Bit surprised Conan hasnt got more of a mention for how he played, I was impressed by him again

Conan is so good I think of him like Ruddock, I forget this is effectively his first season.

vienne86

Tox56 wrote: »

If they're giving MOC 3 years I find it hard to believe theyd discard Leo after only 1, although I dont think he was the right appointment at all

I was never that keen on the idea of him going for playing to coaching in Leinster the way he did, but given he was such a great servant to Leinster, and that he was probably doing a fair bit of the coaching when he was still playing, I was willing to let it go. But more than once this season I have expressed disquiet with the way the forwards are playing.....just not well organised IMO, and the disorganisation was just plain bad on Friday IMO. I know we got the bonus point (just), but this was Zebre....who were out on their feet, lost key players early on, and we were playing at home.

SaveOurLyric

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would the coaching ticket survive if we failed to make the playoffs?

Crikey, I hope not. Clinging to the hope that they have a replacement lined up already, and making the last 4 ( woop de so. even that this is in doubt is scandalous)will not alter matters.
Regularly 'winning ugly', or poor-performance bonus point wins is just an indicator of how bad the coaching is, i.e. the talent available is getting us wins despite the non-coaching. What is really galling is how it shows we could be genuinely good if not hobbled by a substandard coaching ticket.
Sack the lot of them.

irishbucsfan

I was completely against the appointment of Leo but now that he's in the job we will be sticking by him, as we should. I have faith in him to come good, I just wish he'd had a couple of years to do that in a different environment first. I think he's going to be a brilliant forwards coach when he has settled.

Hopefully Strauss is back this weekend, he adds a lot to our tight play.

CatFromHue

I can't see Cullen going anywhere.

The experience he gets from this season alone will improve him big time as a coach.

The set piece is going well too

total former

Tox56 wrote: »

If they're giving MOC 3 years I find it hard to believe theyd discard Leo after only 1, although I dont think he was the right appointment at all

Yeah I'm not advocating sacking anyone but I think the departure of Gibbes has been massive and the quality of some of our forward organisation hasn't been hectic this season. Things like resourcing of rucks and maul strategy have not been up to scratch.

Still, it's worth persisting with.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I can't see us getting Boss or Reddan, the ireland game is a home game and we play sprays first. Both will be in cotton wool.

I was going to say the same. I can see both Boss and Reddan being with Ireland given Reddan is only back from injury.

I also had to laugh at the idea of firing Leo after 1 year but keeping on the head coach who has been looking after a back line that has also badly misfired. Talk about holding guys to different standards. Leo should never have been appointed without first getting experience elsewhere, but now that he's there he should be afforded the same time and confidence as the other coaches.

total former

total former wrote: »

Yes. As they should.

If anyone is to get the bullet it's Leo I'm afraid.

Now; form an orderly queue to express your outrage at the above, no pushing please.

Cullen should never have been appointed in the first place. They both should go really, neither are up to it.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

I was going to say the same. I can see both Boss and Reddan being with Ireland given Reddan is only back from injury.

Quite possibly but Christ I hope not. With all due respect to Luke McGrath, he hasn't shown that he's nearly ready to play in a big crunch game against a team who love to attack the breakdown, especially given how lax we are at protecting our rucks.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

I also had to laugh at the idea of firing Leo after 1 year but keeping on the head coach who has been looking after a back line that has also badly misfired. Talk about holding guys to different standards. Leo should never have been appointed without first getting experience elsewhere, but now that he's there he should be afforded the same time and confidence as the other coaches.

Cullen is only learning his trade and I suppose we all looked at Gibbes as an example of someone who can take like to coaching like a duck to water. Some sort of shake up needs to take place behind the scenes to improve things. I'm an advocate of increased involvement from Dempsey for the backs but what of the forwards? John Fogarty to have some input? Any alteration there would hugely undermine Cullen though.

irishbucsfan

Get John Cooney on the phone

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

The set piece is going well too

It has been but, to play devil's advocate, Caputo looks after the scrum and, while our line out has generally been solid, we've been pretty non-existent with regards to attacking opposition ball for the most part. I'd say our line out is solid without being anything special especially if we consider our maul to be part of it.

Not a fan of ending coaching tickets early myself but the media and a huge volume of fans will be toxic about the set up if we fail to make the play offs.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a fan of ending coaching tickets early myself but the media and a huge volume of fans will be toxic about the set up if we fail to make the play offs.

To be fair, not making the playoffs would be an absolute shocker. Losing at home to the Dragons is farcical.

Heroditas

Very frustrating when you consider that we would be joint top of the table if we'd beaten the Dragons and Treviso

Heroditas

Heroditas wrote: »

Very frustrating when you consider that we would be joint top of the table if we'd beaten the Dragons and Treviso

Thanks a lot, I'd wiped that game from my memory :mad:

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not a fan of ending coaching tickets early myself but the media and a huge volume of fans will be toxic about the set up if we fail to make the play offs.

Thankfully the beauty of casual fans is that their memory is shorter than their attention span. If the return of Sexton and a fortunate injury-free end of 2015 see Leinster winning theyll be back on board quicker than you can say "MOC for Ireland"

total former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not a fan of ending coaching tickets early myself but the media and a huge volume of fans will be toxic about the set up if we fail to make the play offs.

It will all hinge on Europe. We won the league last season and the pitchforks were still out from a (small) number of fans.

If we do well in Europe, ie a decent showing in the semi, then it should appease them.

Unfortunately I reckon that the same people who didn't give a sh*t about the league last season will now consider it the only barometer of the coach.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thankfully the beauty of casual fans is that their memory is shorter than their attention span. If the return of Sexton and a fortunate injury-free end of 2015 see Leinster winning theyll be back on board quicker than you can say "MOC for Ireland"

Its not just going to be casual fans who will be apoplectically pissed off if we dont make the playoffs

Tox56

Tox56 wrote: »

Its not just going to be casual fans who will be apoplectically pissed off if we dont make the playoffs

I suppose it comes down to where we really are in the Pro12 at the moment.

All teams have injuries, we've had more than average. I do however think that we have the best squad in the pro12 so if we are 5th or worse it means to me that we have under performed by a reasonable margin.

The injuries and the fact that the top 5 will probably all be very close will mitigate this in my mind, but would still see it as a failure for the season and a step back on last year.

If we fail to beat Bath at home having come through a challenging but by no means "tough" group then it would be serious question time.

I've said it before, when we've gone badly, it's been so poor that you wonder if our "good" days could not be a lot better?

mr. pleasant

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thankfully the beauty of casual fans is that their memory is shorter than their attention span. If the return of Sexton and a fortunate injury-free end of 2015 see Leinster winning theyll be back on board quicker than you can say "MOC for Ireland"

yes exactly. anyone who's not happy = casual fan. the true and proper fans will find joy and reasons to be happy about home defeats to dragons. good for you.

mr. pleasant

and anyway, both this board and the stadium should be reserved for proper understanding rugby fans only. all five of them. there's just no need for the casual fans with their stupid opinions about rugby. i mean, why do they even watch it?

Swan Curry

They should have a quiz you have to take before you're allowed support Leinster. If your answers don't show your contentment with losing at home to the Dragons and why being unable to score a try against the worst team in the league for 40 minutes is okay, you're clearly not a real fan and should go watch another sport.

Hagz

I think his point was less about being dissatisfied with the team's performances (which I think every Leinster fan has been), and more about the lazy finger pointing at Matt O'Connor. But maybe I'm wrong.

total former

Swan Curry wrote: »

They should have a quiz you have to take before you're allowed support Leinster. If your answers don't show your contentment with losing at home to the Dragons and why being unable to score a try against the worst team in the league for 40 minutes is okay, you're clearly not a real fan and should go watch another sport.

There's already a very simple test. You withdraw or threaten to withdraw your support as a result of disappointing results and you are not a real fan.

Plenty of them here.

LeinsterDub

mr. pleasant wrote: »

yes exactly. anyone who's not happy = casual fan. the true and proper fans will find joy and reasons to be happy about home defeats to dragons. good for you.

Sure it's easier to find the positives in a display when you're sitting at home like some . It's harder to be positive when you're watching crap rugby and freezing your ass off week in week out

SaveOurLyric

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thankfully the beauty of casual fans is that their memory is shorter than their attention span. If the return of Sexton and a fortunate injury-free end of 2015 see Leinster winning theyll be back on board quicker than you can say "MOC for Ireland"

Jumping to pretty hasty off the mark conclusions there.

My attention span, and 'casual fandom' goes back to watching the Leinster of McNeill, Slattery, Orr etc, and them all in between. Long before big crowd RDS Friday nights, and probably before many of you were born.

Yet I'm certainly not happy. There had been no progression since MOC took over, or even a standing still. We have gone backwards. And with no sign or hope that that is with a purpose of talking us forward eventually. This is not a knee jerk or one bad game, or out of a tournamnent reaction. The pattern has been the same all along. And enough is enough. I wouldn't give Leo any easy ride either - just because he is a Leinster good ol boy, in his first year, and should be given a chance is not good enough. Let him be. an apprentice somewhere else. With the player talent at Leinster I expect performers that will deliver performances, development, and wins. This pool of talent is being wasted by this coaching crew, and they are only getting by at all because player talent is getting them out of jail. Anywhere else they. would have sunk without trace.
Sorry for having high standards for my team.

aimee1

dragons result last week could be costly come semi final lineup time

vienne86

aimee1 wrote: »

dragons result last week could be costly come semi final lineup time

I think that one will come back to haunt us. Connacht beat them today in Newport. OK Dragons had a man in the bin for most of the match, but still....

irishbucsfan

mr. pleasant wrote: »

yes exactly. anyone who's not happy = casual fan. the true and proper fans will find joy and reasons to be happy about home defeats to dragons. good for you.

That's a fine straw man. Obviously someone who even looks at a rugby forum isn't remotely who I'm referring to. EDIT: I also just bothered to read the rest of your post and relised you have completely missed the entire point of my own. Try reading the post in context

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

There's already a very simple test. You withdraw or threaten to withdraw your support as a result of disappointing results and you are not a real fan.

Plenty of them here.

Really? Who?