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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V
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Its not just going to be casual fans who will be apoplectically pissed off if we dont make the playoffs
Here's the thing, we could lose by a hair to the Ospreys and win out the rest of the season and still conceivably miss the playoffs.
If we do miss the playoffs then it's likely that results already in the books are the cause of that, rather than anything that is going to happen throughout the rest of the season. If you're going to be apoplectic you should be apoplectic right now, there's no need to wait.
Except it doesn't really make sense to be apoplectic right now because if you look at the season in context, we have been poor but not enough to justify apoplectic rage. If we do everything from here out in our power to make the playoffs and outside events conspire against us, then we will still have more or less the same body of evidence in front of us. The logical reaction would be therefore surely be consistent with current sentiment (+/- reaction to the remainder of our European campaign), but the emotional reaction coupled with the delayed reaction from those who don't quite pay attention would of course far outstretch that, as is expected in the world of sports.0 -
Playoffs and the league are now irrelevant. MOC and Caputo and the rest are irrelevent enough too.
If, however, the leaders among this very well resourced group dont come together to ensure qualification for the Champions Cup, there will be a justifiable inquisition by the supporters.0 -
Playoffs and the league are now irrelevant. MOC and Caputo and the rest are irrelevent enough too.
If, however, the leaders among this very well resourced group dont come together to ensure qualification for the Champions Cup, there will be a justifiable inquisition by the supporters.
Do you mean qualification for next year's Champions Cup?
And what's your issue with Caputo?0 -
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Leinster 23 - 34 Munster
Munster 28 - 13 Leinster
#justiceforMOC0 -
Playoffs and the league are now irrelevant. MOC and Caputo and the rest are irrelevent enough too.
If, however, the leaders among this very well resourced group dont come together to ensure qualification for the Champions Cup, there will be a justifiable inquisition by the supporters.
The final position in the league is very relevant. It decides seeding for Europe next season.0 -
thomond2006 wrote: »Leinster 23 - 34 Munster
Munster 28 - 13 Leinster
#justiceforMOC
It was the bounce of the ball, I swear.0 -
Very glad to see a few chaps here voicing their concerns about the Leinster coaching set up and not allowing themselves to be brow beaten or dismissed by others who deem themselves the only true believers.
MOC has achieved very little other than in the negative column. The team has gone backwards - in results, in performance, in confidence. His signings have been dubious. His demeanour with the press has been very poor at times. The most obvious area for concern is the glaring gap between how our players perform for Ireland and how they now perform for Leinster. It used to be the other way around and we all blamed Kidney.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »apoplectic rage.
I've not seen any cases of apoplectic rage here or else where. Care to point out some examples?0 -
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LeinsterDub wrote: »I've not seen any cases of apoplectic rage here or else where. Care to point out some examples?
Nope, I never said there were any cases of apoplectic rage. Check the context of the post.0 -
Very glad to see a few chaps here voicing their concerns about the Leinster coaching set up and not allowing themselves to be brow beaten or dismissed by others who deem themselves the only true believers.
MOC has achieved very little other than in the negative column. The team has gone backwards - in results, in performance, in confidence. His signings have been dubious. His demeanour with the press has been very poor at times. The most obvious area for concern is the glaring gap between how our players perform for Ireland and how they now perform for Leinster. It used to be the other way around and we all blamed Kidney.
That's an interesting thing to consider, which Leinster players do you think are playing better for Ireland than they do for Leinster?0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »That's an interesting thing to consider, which Leinster players do you think are playing better for Ireland than they do for Leinster?
All of them. You have to raise your game for International level regardless of the coaching ticket.
Our pack is doing serious damage at international level that they don't translate to Leinster. O'Connell, Best, O'Mahony add an enormous amount but even with those names removed we've struggled against sides that have figured out how we are going about ourselves at the breakdown and are taking advantage of our confusion in possession. Confusion by the way is exactly what I see a lot of the time when we have or gain ball in broken play. Confusion caused by too much freedom or too little coaching who knows... aren't they the same thing in fact?
In regards to your other point, the reason people aren't going "apoplectic" yet is because of the very opposite of the remarks you made previously regarding "casual" fans. People *want* the team to succeed and know they still can, "casual" fans who pay "casual" money to go see Leinster every week still want the team to win the pro 12 and the ERC. When that possibility is completely ruled out is when you will see acrimony.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Nope, I never said there were any cases of apoplectic rage. Check the context of the post.
Awh I see so hyperbolic nonsense so0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Except it doesn't really make sense to be apoplectic right now because if you look at the season in context, we have been poor but not enough to justify apoplectic rage. If we do everything from here out in our power to make the playoffs and outside events conspire against us, then we will still have more or less the same body of evidence in front of us. The logical reaction would be therefore surely be consistent with current sentiment (+/- reaction to the remainder of our European campaign), but the emotional reaction coupled with the delayed reaction from those who don't quite pay attention would of course far outstretch that, as is expected in the world of sports.
Elaborate on this? That's taking the pin out of a grenade and using it as a toothpick
I'm not apoplectic but I'm pretty seriously pissed off with how we've been playing this season, I personally can't understand the people who aren't, and if we don't make the playoffs it will take some very strong showings in Europe (or excellent Pro12 performances that weren't rewarded due to a lot of bad luck) to convince me the current coaches are capable of getting the squad playing to somewhere near it's maximum potential.
That applies to all the coaches by the way. I'm not sure what Richie Murphy's actual job is, but if it's skills coach as advertised he is doing a pretty miserable job based on this (and most of last) season0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »That's an interesting thing to consider, which Leinster players do you think are playing better for Ireland than they do for Leinster?
Yep, all of them.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Awh I see so hyperbolic nonsense so
No. You didn't check the context. It was the previous poster who said there would be apoplectic rage.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »That's an interesting thing to consider, which Leinster players do you think are playing better for Ireland than they do for Leinster?
I find it far more curious that if Leinster win playing boring, effective rugby, there is plenty of complaining about the coach (particularly last season where the knives were really out despite the results). However, Ireland do the same now and, while there have been some misgivings, it's much more muted and a lot steered away from the head coach.
I also think it's really interesting that Schmidt is making calls that are identical to MOC who took a fair bit of disdain for those calls such as Boss being his second choice or not viewing Madigan as a top quality player.
MOC makes a decision, he's a plank. Schmidt makes the same call, "In Joe we trust" (which I find such a trite platitude just as "In Deccie we trust" was before it).
There are things to be criticised certainly but a lot of critics have their minds made up long ago when it wasn't reasonable to do so. Even when we won the league, there was an almost sense of begrudging enjoyment. There are so many complaints of the team and not blowing away teams they should be through running rugby. I refuse to accept that a large element of it is simply different expectations now.
In 2004/05 we had a three IRB POTY nominees in the back line with another two Lions, our most capped Irish full back ever and some Kiwi called Holwell. That was an utterly exceptional back line, most at their peak and probably the best ever seen in European rugby.
In the pack, we had 3 more Lions supplemented by the likes of Cullen and Gleeson.
The most talented Leinster starting XV ever? There's a strong argument for it. But there wasn't the howls of derision then we hear from some quarters now despite completely under-performing and being blown away.
Are we underperforming? Yes. Is it worse than in days gone by? Absolutely not. We are still better than anything between 1996 and 2008. Yes, there were some amazing days during that period but there were so, so many awful ones. Lose to the Dragons? That sort of loss happened a couple of times a season for a decade.
In the season of that amazing game at Toulouse, for example, not only did the Dragons beat us but we were stuffed at home by Edinburgh. The year we put 90 on Bourgoin? Stuffed by the Dragons, Borders and Edinburgh.
Not entirely relevant to the precise discussion at hand but it's interesting stuff to see that and realise how far we've come not only as a team in how we play and our mental approach but also as supporters and our expectations.0 -
*very long post*
Don't really agree with a few of these points. Plenty of people have said they're not happy at Boss being in the squad, personally I think it's a joke he's made the 23.
As for Madigan - Schmidt picked Keatley ahead of him. Leinster can't pick Keatley. There is no comparison here to anything that happens at Leinster.
I also see two large differences between Leinster and Ireland - firstly international rugby is like a different sport to the league games we've been watching recently, and is far far higher quality than anything Leinster have been involved in the the Euro comp this season.
Secondly, I don't really accept the national team has been playing boring rugby overall. The two 6N games haven't been great but everything else in 2014 was fine. We scored the most tries in the 6N last year. We played really well against SA and Aus. I don't know how anyone can complain about that.
As for Leinster not blowing teams awa, how about Leinster getting absolutely thrashed, twice, by Munster this season? You'd have to go back years to find such rubbish performances in bigger games from Leinster.
Expectation comes into it but you say it yourself, and this is my whole issue with MOC/Cullen/Leinster at the moment:Are we underperforming? Yes.0 -
Not going to wade too deep into the MOC discussion but there's a difference between a test team deliberately playing a conservative brand of rugby due to a lack of gainline success and a team with an excellent pack at pro 12 level riddled with inaccuracies when they have an opportunity to move the ball.0
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LeinsterDub wrote: »Awh I see so hyperbolic nonsense so
Ah now, don't talk "nonsense". Someone said that fans would rightfully be apoplectic if we didn't make the playoffs. I said they should be apoplectic right now if they're going to be, and you didn't see the initial post. If you want to actually discuss something then let's do it, until then its just cowardly sniping.0 -
Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »
As for Leinster not blowing teams awa, how about Leinster getting absolutely thrashed, twice, by Munster this season? You'd have to go back years to find such rubbish performances in bigger games from Leinster.
I think this proves Buer's point perfectly tbh. In the 2008-9 season, we lost 18-0 at the RDS and 22-5 in Limerick. It's not that long ago and we had a much better team then (although Munster were better then too of course).0 -
Elaborate on this? That's taking the pin out of a grenade and using it as a toothpick
I'm referring to those George Hook-esque types who meander in and out as the international or European games approach and then speak with the authority of world cup winners!
I think you're definitely entitled to be upset, but I would suggest to take heed of the reasons that have been offered. I'm aware there's a horde unwilling to accept these are legitimate expalanations, fair enough. If we are fitter next season with a more settled Cullen and with Sexton ushering in a new/old dawn at half back and we're STILL looking this way then I will happily lead the march down Stephen's Green for SaveOurLyric. unless i can think of a new brilliant excuseI'm not apoplectic but I'm pretty seriously pissed off with how we've been playing this season, I personally can't understand the people who aren't, and if we don't make the playoffs it will take some very strong showings in Europe (or excellent Pro12 performances that weren't rewarded due to a lot of bad luck) to convince me the current coaches are capable of getting the squad playing to somewhere near it's maximum potential.
That applies to all the coaches by the way. I'm not sure what Richie Murphy's actual job is, but if it's skills coach as advertised he is doing a pretty miserable job based on this (and most of last) season0 -
total former wrote: »I think this proves Buer's point perfectly tbh. In the 2008-9 season, we lost 18-0 at the RDS and 22-5 in Limerick. It's not that long ago and we had a much better team then.
Eh, Leinster won a HEC that season. While losing 18-0 to Munster at home is pretty dire (the 22-5 was a far better performance than either of the games this season, but Contepomi had one of his meltdowns against Munster), you can get over it when Leinster lift the trophy at the end of the season. If we win it this year I'll start the petition to give MOC a nice fat contract extension.0 -
I find it far more curious that if Leinster win playing boring, effective rugby, there is plenty of complaining about the coach (particularly last season where the knives were really out despite the results). However, Ireland do the same now and, while there have been some misgivings, it's much more muted and a lot steered away from the head coach.
I also think it's really interesting that Schmidt is making calls that are identical to MOC who took a fair bit of disdain for those calls such as Boss being his second choice or not viewing Madigan as a top quality player.
MOC makes a decision, he's a plank. Schmidt makes the same call, "In Joe we trust" (which I find such a trite platitude just as "In Deccie we trust" was before it).
There are things to be criticised certainly but a lot of critics have their minds made up long ago when it wasn't reasonable to do so. Even when we won the league, there was an almost sense of begrudging enjoyment. There are so many complaints of the team and not blowing away teams they should be through running rugby. I refuse to accept that a large element of it is simply different expectations now.
In 2004/05 we had a three IRB POTY nominees in the back line with another two Lions, our most capped Irish full back ever and some Kiwi called Holwell. That was an utterly exceptional back line, most at their peak and probably the best ever seen in European rugby.
In the pack, we had 3 more Lions supplemented by the likes of Cullen and Gleeson.
The most talented Leinster starting XV ever? There's a strong argument for it. But there wasn't the howls of derision then we hear from some quarters now despite completely under-performing and being blown away.
Are we underperforming? Yes. Is it worse than in days gone by? Absolutely not. We are still better than anything between 1996 and 2008. Yes, there were some amazing days during that period but there were so, so many awful ones. Lose to the Dragons? That sort of loss happened a couple of times a season for a decade.
In the season of that amazing game at Toulouse, for example, not only did the Dragons beat us but we were stuffed at home by Edinburgh. The year we put 90 on Bourgoin? Stuffed by the Dragons, Borders and Edinburgh.
Not entirely relevant to the precise discussion at hand but it's interesting stuff to see that and realise how far we've come not only as a team in how we play and our mental approach but also as supporters and our expectations.
I think you're going down the wrong road comparing with Schmidt.
Schmidt has lost 1 game since the start of 2014, 3 in his entire time as Ireland coach. If Leinster under MOC had a record even close to that, nobody would care at all what brand of rugby we were playing. Schmidt also has Ireland playing controlled, incredibly well structured, largely error free rugby that imo is literally exactly the opposite to how Leinster have been playing. I don't agree with many of the calls he's made but fact of the matter is, we're winning. If and when that stops you can be absolutely sure he'll have questions to answer, and that's even with all his success behind him.
I'm getting to the stage where I can't really fathom where a robust defence of what the coaching staff is doing (not saying your post is an example this) could come from. Last year we were getting results, and it was MOC's first year in the job, so I could pretty easily understand not going along with the criticism that was there.
But we're currently in genuine danger of not making the playoffs, we've won less games than any of the other top 5 sides and the performance have been on average, consistently poor.
Looking at the performances as they are now, I think people would agree they're not good enough, where is the suggestion that, based on what we've actually seen, things will get better, to the extent where we could be said to be playing to the best of our abilities? Whether you think expectations are too high or not, I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Leinster, on the whole this season, have played as well as they could have.
There are people organising marches and taking things to the extreme, but while you could argue some people are unwilling to change their position on the coaching staff not being suitable for Leinster, the same could easily be said of people at the other end of the spectrum0 -
Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »Eh, Leinster won a HEC that season. While losing 18-0 to Munster at home is pretty dire (the 22-5 was a far better performance than either of the games this season, but Contepomi had one of his meltdowns against Munster), you can get over it when Leinster lift the trophy at the end of the season. If we win it this year I'll start the petition to give MOC a nice fat contract extension.
Yes, I'm very aware that we won the HEC that season. There is nothing wrong with my memory. However, we did not play well for large chunks of the season; do you remember that? Your question was when did we last play rubbish in big games, well, there you go.0 -
We won the HEC but it was far, far from an impressive season for the most part. Up until the game in The Stoop, the season was considered to be pretty poor. We had only won 13 of 20 games going to London. It was an amazing last 6 weeks to the season but up to that point, the coaches had probably sending out their CVs.
It's all about perception but history remembers a HEC win and not the rest of the season where we lost one third of our league games.0 -
I think you're going down the wrong road comparing with Schmidt.
I probably am and I know it's not such a simplistic comparison but I do find it curious. There are a lot of parallels there but a lot of people have hung their hat on Schmidt and are far less vocal on similar issues.
Regarding the record enjoyed by MOC and Schmidt, well last season MOC only lost 6 from 31 in the HEC and Pro12 seasons. Schmidt has lost 3 of 15 games (boosted by not having to play any of the big 3 away last summer). So the same win/loss percentage (MOC's is fractionally better at the moment). However, MOC was being hammered by many despite that record.
I am playing devil's advocate and I would take Schmidt over MOC any day but reason does tend to go out the window with many when it comes to the scenario.0 -
I have read many of your posts in defence of the status quo relating to the coaching ticket and I have to tell you, in my opinion, you have progressively descended into espousing greater levels of b.s.as you go. The Emperor has no clothes, the team has consistently under-performed for the entire season, there is no potent attack and the man at the top offers up excuses instead of producing solutions. In the modern World you don't wait until the final tally is in when you have all the history of a blatant and depressing trend. You resolve to take remedial action and in the case of Leinster that means ensuring we do not have the same unacceptable lack of leadership, direction, and enforcement of standards in preparation and execution to look forward next season.irishbucsfan wrote: »Here's the thing, we could lose by a hair to the Ospreys and win out the rest of the season and still conceivably miss the playoffs.
If we do miss the playoffs then it's likely that results already in the books are the cause of that, rather than anything that is going to happen throughout the rest of the season. If you're going to be apoplectic you should be apoplectic right now, there's no need to wait.
Except it doesn't really make sense to be apoplectic right now because if you look at the season in context, we have been poor but not enough to justify apoplectic rage. If we do everything from here out in our power to make the playoffs and outside events conspire against us, then we will still have more or less the same body of evidence in front of us. The logical reaction would be therefore surely be consistent with current sentiment (+/- reaction to the remainder of our European campaign), but the emotional reaction coupled with the delayed reaction from those who don't quite pay attention would of course far outstretch that, as is expected in the world of sports.0 -
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I probably am and I know it's not such a simplistic comparison but I do find it curious. There are a lot of parallels there but a lot of people have hung their hat on Schmidt and are far less vocal on similar issues.
Regarding the record enjoyed by MOC and Schmidt, well last season MOC only lost 6 from 31 in the HEC and Pro12 seasons. Schmidt has lost 3 of 15 games (boosted by not having to play any of the big 3 away last summer). So the same win/loss percentage (MOC's is fractionally better at the moment). However, MOC was being hammered by many despite that record.
I am playing devil's advocate and I would take Schmidt over MOC any day but reason does tend to go out the window with many when it comes to the scenario.
I do admit you have a point, and Schmidt's previous record helps him and the perception of him, but it's still a completely different situation. 2 of his 3 losses came in 2 weeks, and one of them was arguably Ireland's best performance under him. The only period where there has ever really been an "opportunity" for people to complain with him at the helm was after the Aus game, and after the NZ game to a much lesser extent.
I also think you skipped over the difference between winning brutally/efficiently/not 'entertainingly' vs winning ugly. The France game was, for the most part, a rock solid gameplan executed extremely well. It wasn't great to watch, but I wouldn't regard it as winning ugly.
Although MOC was 'vindicated' you could say by winning the league, I don't back down from the suggestion that even when we were winning, a lot of the performances last season were underwhelming/flat out poor ie winning ugly. How many Ireland wins could you say the same of? The Argentina games, vs Samoa maybe? The Scotland game at a stretch0 -
We won the HEC but it was far, far from an impressive season for the most part. Up until the game in The Stoop, the season was considered to be pretty poor. We had only won 13 of 20 games going to London. It was an amazing last 6 weeks to the season but up to that point, the coaches had probably sending out their CVs.
It's all about perception but history remembers a HEC win and not the rest of the season where we lost one third of our league games.
After the loss to France in December there was a very large number of people calling for Cheika's head.
Their complaints were pretty much the same as we're seeing now as well. Our attacking play was rubbish (does anyone remember the Gaffney flat line attack?), our pack were too soft (Rocky Elsom and Heaslip were tearing things up but the rest of the forwards were being outplayed a lot of the time), our half backs were poor (Sexton was dropped back to the AIL and Whitaker was getting dogs abuse from the fans). I remember vividly listening to a discussion on Newstalk about whether Cheika should be replaced.
There is also plenty of asymmetry as well. Our depth is MUCH better now than it was then so we should be better. However I also think we are better than we were until the Quins game.
I mean even the Quins game is interesting to think about. It's my favourite memory as a Leinster fan, standing in the North stand in the stoop screaming after the team as they valiantly tackled Quins again and again and again. We were oblivious to bloodgate at the time and it was still an amazing game. But we didn't score a try and my memory doesn't really indicate we ever looked like it either. Dare I say it, if the Quins game happened this April I think our fans would be pretty disappointed by it...0 -
total former wrote: »Yes, I'm very aware that we won the HEC that season. There is nothing wrong with my memory. However, we did not play well for large chunks of the season; do you remember that? Your question was when did we last play rubbish in big games, well, there you go.
Ok wonderful. We've established Leinster are as patchy as we were 6 or 7 years ago (minus the small detail of winning the HEC of course).
Was everyone perfectly content with how Leinster were doing during the course of that season? Were people leaping to Cheika's defence after losing at home to Munster, or that Castres away train-wreck? Or the backs who all lined up on the gainline and got nowhere?
What is the point of this line of discussion? Leinster are underperforming now.But we didn't score a try and my memory doesn't really indicate we ever looked like it either. Dare I say it, if the Quins game happened this April I think our fans would be pretty disappointed by it...
Leinster actually bombed a chance where it was easier to not score than score. I think BOD made a break, got hauled down on the line, Quins had absolutely nobody covering about 70% of their line and Leinster went the wrong way. Would be great if that game had have happened again this season, Leinster lost away to Quins without firing a shot this season.0 -
They didnt bomb it.Nick Easter cynically stopped a certain try from the recycle and took a yellow for it IIRC.Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »Leinster actually bombed a chance where it was easier to not score than score. I think BOD made a break, got hauled down on the line, Quins had absolutely nobody covering about 70% of their line and Leinster went the wrong way. Would be great if that game had have happened again this season, Leinster lost away to Quins without firing a shot this season.0 -
They didnt bomb it.Nick Easter cynically stopped a certain try from the recycle and took a yellow for it IIRC.
They totally bombed it. Whitaker passed out to the blindside which is when Easter killed it, when he could have just dotted the ball over the line on the openside, there was absolutely no defence there.0 -
I've come across plenty of "I hope leinster lose this game so we can get rid of MOC" so called fans, plenty.
That's not what total former was talking about. He was talking about people ceasing their support of Leinster because of MOC. I'm not at fond of the idea of people hoping we lose so that he goes quicker, but is that really the same thing?total former wrote: »Ah there are, but read this next bit carefully: I'm not accusing all the people who want MOC gone of being like that, not at all. Of course you can be critical of the team and the coach and still be a real fan and I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.
That's all fine, I never suggested you were ever saying anything like that.I'm not sure what Richie Murphy's actual job is, but if it's skills coach as advertised he is doing a pretty miserable job based on this (and most of last) season
I'm somewhat more sympathetic to Richie for 2 reasons. First he was skills and kicking coach during our most successful period. Second because he's double jobbing with Ireland as well. I don't like the idea of having him double jobbing. Either he's with Ireland or he's with Leinster.It's all about perception but history remembers a HEC win and not the rest of the season where we lost one third of our league games.
We lost 6 games in the league that season. We've already lost 5 in this. I think most of us are pretty sure we're going to lose at least one more, but personally I'm just worried about the next 2 weeks. I'm not seeing anything to suggest that we can go away to Wales 2 weeks in a row and get results. Poor as some of that season was this could be worse.
But even if we don't make the play-offs and do manage to put together a few performances in a row I'd be happy to keep the coaches on for next season. If I've got this all wrong then I'll be bloody delighted. Leinster are my team and I don't want to be unhappy with them. But in over a year and a half we have yet to put together 3 or 4 successive performances. We managed successive results, but that isn't the same thing.
Also there's a world of difference between an effective but "unattractive" game plan (Ireland) and ineffective and "unattractive" game plan (Leinster). I don't like the term "winning ugly" as it can be abused quite a lot. Ireland could be considered to be winning ugly, but the performances have been hugely effective and I've enjoyed them. Leinster last season (and some of this) have been winning badly more so than ugly. They have been inaccurate and ineffective and have scraped results. But as I suggested before the start of the season they've failed to scrape some of the results they would have in seasons past (Connacht away, Treviso, Quins away, Wasps away and Dragons all spring to mind, never mind the LBPs we missed out in both Munster games).0 -
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Also there's a world of difference between an effective but "unattractive" game plan (Ireland) and ineffective and "unattractive" game plan (Leinster). I don't like the term "winning ugly" as it can be abused quite a lot. Ireland could be considered to be winning ugly, but the performances have been hugely effective and I've enjoyed them. Leinster last season (and some of this) have been winning badly more so than ugly. They have been inaccurate and ineffective and have scraped results. But as I suggested before the start of the season they've failed to scrape some of the results they would have in seasons past (Connacht away, Treviso, Quins away, Wasps away and Dragons all spring to mind, never mind the LBPs we missed out in both Munster games).
I 100% agree with this. I would be hesitant to compare Leinster to Ireland at all myself, despite Buer making a strong argument (albeit as devil's advocate).
Against France for Ireland we went out and kicked early and often in each possession. One possession stood out where we went through two strong phases, making good ground on both, yet Sexton kicked on 3rd phase, from about the French 10m line, further into French territory. That wasn't us reacting to not being able to make ground with the ball, that was us electing to use the boot despite the opportunity to make ground another way. The play selection was good, by which I mean the manner and target of kick was good, and we put them under a lot of pressure in their own half. Sexton and Murray are the best there is when it comes to this IMO. The decision to play this way is a very accurate reflection of where our strengths are as a team and we're clearly doing it very well.
For Leinster we've been looking at some combination of Gopperth/Reddan/Madigan/Boss in this role, and of these Reddan is uncomfortable with this style, Boss was playing badly, Gopperth was inconsistent and Madigan was consistently struggling. To make matters worse we've been chopping and changing constantly at 10. Ideally we'd look to use the ball any other way... but the problem is that our midfield was devastated with injury until January and we've missed world class ball carriers in the pack. There is no truly valid excuse for the inaccuracy from the guys who were left behind, but our failings in this department didn't help. I do blame our coaching staff for our underperforming halfbacks, and I worry about the coaching staff in that department more than anywhere else (for historical reasons).
We would have survived better if we were still being coached by Schmidt, even if purely because he prescribes so much and in so much detail that it takes a lot more of the responsibility off the individuals. That suits a weakened team hugely. Schmidt is Helmuth Von Moltke, whereas Matty is Joseph Joffre.
So I would strongly argue the decision to rely on our half backs and territory was pretty much thrust upon our coaching staff, if anyone disagrees I'd genuinely love to hear why. I asked during this period what other approach would be suitable, there is literally no other way I could see us playing and having a chance at the time. I'd contest that rather than us using our kicking game as a finely tuned weapon selected from an arsenal of potential approaches (which is what Schmidt is doing to my mind), Leinster arrived at it through a process of elimination (of players). If Leinster had Murray and Sexton at 9 and 10 we would have looked like a different team. Luckily next season, injury permitting, we'll have one of those guys and consistency in midfield and we won't be missing multiple Lions tourists from our pack. And if we still look like this despite those things, then it'll be open season on MOC. /stream of consciousness0 -
If we lose by a hair to the Ospreys but win the rest and still don't qualify (a mathematical impossibility) people won't be apoplectic and will acknowledge the run of results and hopefully upturn in performance I'm sure. But that scenario won't happen and it's ridiculous to use it as a situation. If we don't qualify for the top 4 it will be because we lost more matches in which case people will have full right to be very pissed off.0
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irishbucsfan wrote: »I 100% agree with this. I would be hesitant to compare Leinster to Ireland at all myself, despite Buer making a strong argument (albeit as devil's advocate).
Against France for Ireland we went out and kicked early and often in each possession. One possession stood out where we went through two strong phases, making good ground on both, yet Sexton kicked on 3rd phase, from about the French 10m line, further into French territory. That wasn't us reacting to not being able to make ground with the ball, that was us electing to use the boot despite the opportunity to make ground another way. The play selection was good, by which I mean the manner and target of kick was good, and we put them under a lot of pressure in their own half. Sexton and Murray are the best there is when it comes to this IMO. The decision to play this way is a very accurate reflection of where our strengths are as a team and we're clearly doing it very well.
For Leinster we've been looking at some combination of Gopperth/Reddan/Madigan/Boss in this role, and of these Reddan is uncomfortable with this style, Boss was playing badly, Gopperth was inconsistent and Madigan was consistently struggling. To make matters worse we've been chopping and changing constantly at 10. Ideally we'd look to use the ball any other way... but the problem is that our midfield was devastated with injury until January and we've missed world class ball carriers in the pack. There is no truly valid excuse for the inaccuracy from the guys who were left behind, but our failings in this department didn't help. I do blame our coaching staff for our underperforming halfbacks, and I worry about the coaching staff in that department more than anywhere else (for historical reasons).
We would have survived better if we were still being coached by Schmidt, even if purely because he prescribes so much and in so much detail that it takes a lot more of the responsibility off the individuals. That suits a weakened team hugely. Schmidt is Helmuth Von Moltke, whereas Matty is Joseph Joffre.
So I would strongly argue the decision to rely on our half backs and territory was pretty much thrust upon our coaching staff, if anyone disagrees I'd genuinely love to hear why. I asked during this period what other approach would be suitable, there is literally no other way I could see us playing and having a chance at the time. I'd contest that rather than us using our kicking game as a finely tuned weapon selected from an arsenal of potential approaches (which is what Schmidt is doing to my mind), Leinster arrived at it through a process of elimination (of players). If Leinster had Murray and Sexton at 9 and 10 we would have looked like a different team. Luckily next season, injury permitting, we'll have one of those guys and consistency in midfield and we won't be missing multiple Lions tourists from our pack. And if we still look like this despite those things, then it'll be open season on MOC. /stream of consciousness
I've gone back over the first half of the France game and I remember noticing at the game that France had their back three deep with their scrummie sweeping between the defensive line and the back three, and that was obviously in reaction to our kicking game. Shaggy was suggesting that we went through phases with ball in hand for two reasons. First because there was going to be space in the French defensive line as there were only 11 men in it (hence the ground we were able to make), and secondly because doing so would force the back three to come up into the line in reaction. You'll notice a lot of our phase play went down their left wing to try and expose Thomas' decision making there. And that is a perfect example of why that "unattractive" game can be so bloody impressive. And effective.
As regards Leinster I do think there are things we could have done better. I think our kicking game just wasn't accurate enough and our chase not aggressive enough. We seemed to be entrusting our defensive line to hold any counter from the receiver rather than look to put pressure on him and possibly turn over ball. When you have someone like McFadden there for example (ok he was missing for 2 months) you have someone who has pace and can give you a very effective kick chase. Yet there were times even on Friday where he seemed to be rearing to go after it but was being held back in the line. Penney got some stick for his use of the wide game too. We're operating something very similar were we try and get the ball to the wing fast. We crab across field when doing it and allow defences to drift across and reduce the space the wide men have available to them. Luke showed on Friday exactly what a winger should be doing in that situation, i.e. cutting back inside. Which is what Kearney expected of Fanning in the Quins game and it didn't happen. Surely to God though it's not that hard to tell these guys to do this and ensure that they do? We've seen it so rarely this season and needed it so badly. In part you blame the players for not taking the initiative, but after a few weeks you surely also have to blame the coaches for not (metaphorically) beating it into them. As I said before a lot of the changes are small ones that have the potential for a big impact on how we play. A dummy runner in midfield every now and then would be nice rather than serving players up on a platter for defenders. Te'o getting nailed in the Dragons game stands out there. Nobody else was ever going to receive the ball so the Dragons defence knew who to target, And they really did nail him well behind the gain line. How often have we gone backwards in attack because of things like that this season?0 -
That's not what total former was talking about. He was talking about people ceasing their support of Leinster because of MOC. I'm not at fond of the idea of people hoping we lose so that he goes quicker, but is that really the same thing?
Not supporting Leinster vs. wanting Leinster to lose.... wanting Leinster to lose is possibly worse depending on your thought process. Actively wishing defeat is worse than indifference, to my mind.
I have only come across one or two of that variety, mind you, notably the most whingy posters on LF. I think it's very, very isolated.0 -
Not supporting Leinster vs. wanting Leinster to lose.... wanting Leinster to lose is possibly worse depending on your thought process. Actively wishing defeat is worse than indifference, to my mind.
I have only come across one or two of that variety, mind you, notably the most whingy posters on LF. I think it's very, very isolated.
In the 2012 6 Nations a part of me was happy we performed so poorly. Although painful, it was clear it heralded the end of Deccie. It was needed, with a second or third place finish he would have hung on for another year.
Would we have won the 2013 6 Nations without the heartache of 2012? I think not.
Last weekend, a part of me was saddened when we pulled away from Zebre in the last 20 minutes. It was undeserved and will allow MOC to cling on by his fingernails for a while longer. It's not in the long term interests of Leinster.
I completely accept that MOC was dealt a tough hand. Following Joe, losing a raft of players, facing even more money from France. It would have taken a very good coach to steer us through that. However, the fact remains, MOC had not performed.
It's over to Dawson now, he has made good decisions for Leinster over the last decade, he needs to step up now and take the tough decisive decision and find a better alternative for next year.0 -
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Also there's a world of difference between an effective but "unattractive" game plan (Ireland) and ineffective and "unattractive" game plan (Leinster). I don't like the term "winning ugly" as it can be abused quite a lot. Ireland could be considered to be winning ugly, but the performances have been hugely effective and I've enjoyed them. Leinster last season (and some of this) have been winning badly more so than ugly. They have been inaccurate and ineffective and have scraped results. But as I suggested before the start of the season they've failed to scrape some of the results they would have in seasons past (Connacht away, Treviso, Quins away, Wasps away and Dragons all spring to mind, never mind the LBPs we missed out in both Munster games).
I agree with all of that and, as I've said, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I do think last season, however, we were winning ugly as opposed to badly. We put away teams comfortably and scored a fair few tries, mostly through battering the opposition up front. We earned 8 bonus point wins from 22 games which was our second highest ever. I think this season hasn't been near the same level of accuracy in the pack.
I don't think people treat things equally though. Last season, after opening our HEC with two ugly and efficient wins, (an excellent win against the Ospreys followed by a scrappy but deserved 19-7 win against Castres) there were significant grumblings amongst fans.
This season, there's no argument to be made. We're far less accurate, organised and impressive. We've the personnel available to us to win all of our remaining games but I highly doubt that we will.
But last season, even after winning games ugly, there was a lot of criticism.0 -
Not supporting Leinster vs. wanting Leinster to lose.... wanting Leinster to lose is possibly worse depending on your thought process. Actively wishing defeat is worse than indifference, to my mind.
I have only come across one or two of that variety, mind you, notably the most whingy posters on LF. I think it's very, very isolated.
It's two different sides of the same coin IMO. I hope it is isolated and you expect to hear rubbish like that on the internet but I've heard quite a few comments along these lines in the stands too.
Edit: and there's "padser" with a great example.0 -
My thoughts on Leinster these days in brief.
We're just not very good anymore. We've lost a top coach and some top players. So a drop is to be expected. Think that we're not doing everything 100% that we could be doing to get back up to the top, but I'm not sure anyone is.0 -
In the 2012 6 Nations a part of me was happy we performed so poorly. Although painful, it was clear it heralded the end of Deccie. It was needed, with a second or third place finish he would have hung on for another year.
Would we have won the 2013 6 Nations without the heartache of 2012? I think not.
Last weekend, a part of me was saddened when we pulled away from Zebre in the last 20 minutes. It was undeserved and will allow MOC to cling on by his fingernails for a while longer. It's not in the long term interests of Leinster.
I completely accept that MOC was dealt a tough hand. Following Joe, losing a raft of players, facing even more money from France. It would have taken a very good coach to steer us through that. However, the fact remains, MOC had not performed.
It's over to Dawson now, he has made good decisions for Leinster over the last decade, he needs to step up now and take the tough decisive decision and find a better alternative for next year.
Fair play to you speaking up and stating your honest position but I could never, ever get on board with thinking like that. Saddened that we earned a BP after dominating a game regardless of how hard we found it to click? Nah.0 -
Not supporting Leinster vs. wanting Leinster to lose.... wanting Leinster to lose is possibly worse depending on your thought process. Actively wishing defeat is worse than indifference, to my mind.
I have only come across one or two of that variety, mind you, notably the most whingy posters on LF. I think it's very, very isolated.
In terms of not supporting Leinster due to the current issues I could understand people who have only recently gotten into the game doing that. Like the last 2 weeks when people were leaving at half time. Not everyone is like me (and most of us here) in that we've a lot more than just a passing interest in the game. Anyone with a passing interest being turned off by what they are watching at the moment is understandable. It is totally different if a hardcore fan is saying they'll stop supporting Leinster.
In terms of wishing that Leinster lose so that MOC won't be here next season is quite different. I understand the logic to that as well, even if I wholeheartedly disagree with it. It's kind of like ripping off the bandage. More pain now for less in the long run.
I think of all of the above a hardcore fan walking away is the worst. Wishing for Leinster to lose is misguided, but that's about it. There are people who fall into all of the above categories, but I'm not sure I'd agree with total formers assertion that there are "plenty" of people who do.0 -
If Joe came back now I wonder how much we'd improve... Obviously there are issues within how the squad are preparing for games, their mindset is definitely questionable. The on-field decision making in the first half of the Zebre game was awful, but from players that should know better. We badly miss Heaslip when he doesn't play, for all the people who don't think much of Heaslip all you have to do is look at the games we've haven't had him and see how we struggle for direction.
But will a new coach fix this? I'd be doubtful. The issues are far wider than any one man, or even a coaching ticket. If we brought in some new coach we could very much compound the problem.0 -
If Joe came back now I wonder how much we'd improve... Obviously there are issues within how the squad are preparing for games, their mindset is definitely questionable. The on-field decision making in the first half of the Zebre game was awful, but from players that should know better. We badly miss Heaslip when he doesn't play, for all the people who don't think much of Heaslip all you have to do is look at the games we've haven't had him and see how we struggle for direction.
But will a new coach fix this? I'd be doubtful. The issues are far wider than any one man, or even a coaching ticket. If we brought in some new coach we could very much compound the problem.
In the short term possibly, but a lot depends on what a new coach would bring compared to what MOC brings. For example we don't really know how much, if any, truth there is behind this idea of the players being given more responsibility on the field. If this is true and it doesn't suit the players we have then maybe a coach who brings a more structured coach set-up would add quite a lot. Is the problem a lack of clarity across the XV on the pitch, and if so would a more structured environment improve that?
At the end of the day all we see are the symptoms. We're not really in a place to fully identify the cause(s) in any great detail. And so it's hard to comment on what a new coach may or may not bring.0 -
If Joe came back now I wonder how much we'd improve... Obviously there are issues within how the squad are preparing for games, their mindset is definitely questionable. The on-field decision making in the first half of the Zebre game was awful, but from players that should know better. We badly miss Heaslip when he doesn't play, for all the people who don't think much of Heaslip all you have to do is look at the games we've haven't had him and see how we struggle for direction.
But will a new coach fix this? I'd be doubtful. The issues are far wider than any one man, or even a coaching ticket. If we brought in some new coach we could very much compound the problem.
Yeah, this sums it up for me.
Drives me bananas on here whenever someone (usually me) suggests that the problems go beyond MOC and some genius says "oh, well I'm glad you're satisfied with a home defeat to the Dragons" etc.
Things aren't going swimmingly but you take a successful team and:
1. Strip it of its coaching ticket - we've not only lost Joe but also Gibbes and Feek while Richie Murphy seems to be double-jobbing.
2. Strip it of not only key players but on-field leaders - MOC's arrival coincided with the departures of Nacewa and Sexton - world-class players but also massive presence in the squad. Compound that with the loss of BOD and Cullen this season and there's a serious leadership deficit.
3. Endure an injury crisis of biblical proportions
and you're always going to struggle badly.
All of these would have happened with any coach at the helm. I don't think MOC is as good a coach as Joe but you might as well be wishing for us to sign Dan Carter as back-up to Sexton next season as wish for a coach as good as Joe.0 -
total former wrote: »Yeah, this sums it up for me.
Drives me bananas on here whenever someone (usually me) suggests that the problems go beyond MOC and some genius says "oh, well I'm glad you're satisfied with a home defeat to the Dragons" etc.
Things aren't going swimmingly but you take a successful team and:
1. Strip it of its coaching ticket - we've not only lost Joe but also Gibbes and Feek while Richie Murphy seems to be double-jobbing.
2. Strip it of not only key players but on-field leaders - MOC's arrival coincided with the departures of Nacewa and Sexton - world-class players but also massive presence in the squad. Compound that with the loss of BOD and Cullen this season and there's a serious leadership deficit.
3. Endure an injury crisis of biblical proportions.
All of these would have happened with any coach at the helm. I don't think MOC is as good a coach as Joe but you might as well be wishing for us to sign Dan Carter as back-up to Sexton next season as wish for a coach as good as Joe.
I fully agree with all of this. Add to the list though that we also have more players away with Ireland than ever before and it is even harder for Leinster to compete.
There's a whole bunch of reasons why we're not as good as we were, and I've said before I don't like comparing us to where we were. I don't think it's productive in any way for all those reasons above. We should be comparing how we are doing with what we have available to us. And I think that is where you and I disagree. I think we've fallen a lot farther than we should have and I don't think our coaches have done a good enough job arresting that slide. I get the impression you're not convinced with them either, but you don't agree with how harsh I'm being about it. Fair?0 -
In the short term possibly, but a lot depends on what a new coach would bring compared to what MOC brings. For example we don't really know how much, if any, truth there is behind this idea of the players being given more responsibility on the field. If this is true and it doesn't suit the players we have then maybe a coach who brings a more structured coach set-up would add quite a lot. Is the problem a lack of clarity across the XV on the pitch, and if so would a more structured environment improve that?
At the end of the day all we see are the symptoms. We're not really in a place to fully identify the cause(s) in any great detail. And so it's hard to comment on what a new coach may or may not bring.
Likewise, we really have no idea if the issues are down to the coach or not. It's almost impossible to tell, looking in from the outset, however one just assumes that if things aren't going well the buck stops with the coach.
I can't help but think of our other provinces when it comes to usurping 'under performing' coaches.... And look how far they've improved...0 -
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