Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

I fully agree with all of this. Add to the list though that we also have more players away with Ireland than ever before and it is even harder for Leinster to compete.

There's a whole bunch of reasons why we're not as good as we were, and I've said before I don't like comparing us to where we were. I don't think it's productive in any way for all those reasons above. We should be comparing how we are doing with what we have available to us. And I think that is where you and I disagree. I think we've fallen a lot farther than we should have and I don't think our coaches have done a good enough job arresting that slide. I get the impression you're not convinced with them either, but you don't agree with how harsh I'm being about it. Fair?

That is fair.

I think we were much better coached and drilled even last season, particularly in the forwards and that's why I think point (1) above is key. Feek was a massive loss but Caputo seems to be coming into it now, Gibbes' departure blew a hole in the team and Leo was always a risky choice. The back play has been pretty grim at times and MOC carries the can for that to a large extent. If people aren't clear in their roles then MOC carries the can for that.

However, and I've said this so often already, the slide began before Joe left. He got out at the perfect time from his point of view, the romp in the Amlin even helped people forget the pretty poor first half of his last season.

Maybe MOC hasn't done enough to turn it around but I think he deserves to be allowed to see out his contract. He inherited a lot of the problems with the current squad but another season, with Sexton at 10, with the younger guys in the squad (hopefully) maturing and growing into the team and fewer injury disruptions, I think he could do very well for us.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Likewise, we really have no idea if the issues are down to the coach or not. It's almost impossible to tell, looking in from the outset, however one just assumes that if things aren't going well the buck stops with the coach.

I can't help but think of our other provinces when it comes to usurping 'under performing' coaches.... And look how far they've improved...

Well both Ulster and Munster are ahead of us in the league and Connacht have made huge improvements while also having beaten us this season. Munster prevented us from even getting a single LBP in the two games we've played them in. And none of them have the squad that we have (or the disruptions, that's true except for Ulster possibly).

I have said before though that if we see issues occurring over the course of one or two games you need to look at the players. However if those issues extend beyond a couple of games and become fairly consistent then you need to look at the coaches. It's their job to fix issues that arise and if the issues aren't being fixed the only 2 possible reasons for this are that (a) the players aren't good enough or (b) the coaches aren't doing enough and/or enough of the right things to fix the issues.

Are the players good enough? Almost to a man yes. We do have issues at half-back but not enough to explain a loss at home to the Dragons for the first time ever. So that leaves the coaches.

Also I have to wonder why our 2 worst performances have come off the back of a three week break where work could have been done to improve on things. I understand they were also during international windows but that can't be the only reason for the level of regression.

The_Captain

.ak wrote: »

If Joe came back now I wonder how much we'd improve... Obviously there are issues within how the squad are preparing for games, their mindset is definitely questionable. The on-field decision making in the first half of the Zebre game was awful, but from players that should know better. We badly miss Heaslip when he doesn't play, for all the people who don't think much of Heaslip all you have to do is look at the games we've haven't had him and see how we struggle for direction.

But will a new coach fix this? I'd be doubtful. The issues are far wider than any one man, or even a coaching ticket. If we brought in some new coach we could very much compound the problem.

Bizarrely, Joe seems to have created a low-risk, low-scoring playing the percentages style international team. I don't know how much of the playing style he'd actually change

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

That is fair.

I think we were much better coached and drilled even last season, particularly in the forwards and that's why I think point (1) above is key. Feek was a massive loss but Caputo seems to be coming into it now, Gibbes' departure blew a hole in the team and Leo was always a risky choice. The back play has been pretty grim at times and MOC carries the can for that to a large extent. If people aren't clear in their roles then MOC carries the can for that.

However, and I've said this so often already, the slide began before Joe left. He got out at the perfect time from his point of view, the romp in the Amlin even helped people forget the pretty poor first half of his last season.

Maybe MOC hasn't done enough to turn it around but I think he deserves to be allowed to see out his contract. He inherited a lot of the problems with the current squad but another season, with Sexton at 10, with the younger guys in the squad (hopefully) maturing and growing into the team and fewer injury disruptions, I think he could do very well for us.

The loss of Gibbs was huge and Leo simply shouldn't have been appointed as forwards coach like that. Murphy double jobbing definitely looks to be hurting us (in my last post I mentioned issues coming back off the 3 week breaks but I should have also mentioned that we don't have our skills and kicking coach in that time). Caputo seems to be coming along fine for my liking. I was worried about him at first and we struggled for a bit at the start of the season, but our set piece has been the least of our worries by a long way recently. I do wish we'd abandon the idea of not hooking though. To see Zebre win against the head the other day because they decided to hook and we didn't was frustrating.

I'm not sure we can say that there was a slide in 2012/13 though. We lost a total of 5 games that season in the league and were only beaten in the HEC by Clermont when we were fielding a pretty make shift back line that included Goodman and Darce in the centre, Mads at FB and Conway and Carr on the bench. And we still managed LBPs home and away. In fact we ended up on 20 points that season which is the same as this season in the Champions Cup. And we had a substantially handier group this season. There were issues that season all right but in the second half of the season we won 16 of 17 games. Not all of them convincingly, but some of them very convincingly getting 8 TBPs in that time plus 4 tries or more in all 3 Amlin games (so that's 4 tries or more in 11 of 17 games). The only game we lost we did so to a very good Ulster side by 3 points in what was a very, very close game. The games against Scarlets and Connacht were low points while we struggled too much against Exeter, but other than that it wasn't that bad a season.

irishbucsfan

I think there was a definite and clear slide in 2012/13. Yes we only lost to Clemont in the H cup but our standard of play was much lower than where it was in 11/12. We weren't playing that same open attacking rugby any more and we were making a lot of mistakes.

It definitely improved when we got through the injury crisis after January but I think 12/13 proves that even an established coach in a team with much more leadership struggles hugely with disruption.

awec

I've said it before loads of times but Leo Cullen should never have went from Leinster player to Leinster first team forwards coach. There is just no way he can get the required respect from the players when half of them are probably his mates. He was still one of the lads last season, you can't just magically step out of that space and become an authority figure with the same bunch of players. It's not good for him either, I don't think it would provide the best environment for him to learn as a coach.

Not only that, but there was nothing to suggest he is actually good enough to coach at that level. Coaching and playing are two completely different things and being good at one doesn't mean you're any good at the other.

He should have been away somewhere else for a few years to learn his trade, possibly at a lower level. Maybe even one of the underage Leinster sides for a while or another province.

CatFromHue

He was the Captain for a good number of years so players would be used to him being in charge.

As a player he was known for a being a leader and as the saying goes "the lineout, that's Leo's baby" so he was leading some aspects of the training.

I'm happy enough with him getting the job. We;ve been training up other countries coaches for along enough so why not give one of our guys, with the same experience, a go.

The_Captain

We were quick enough to complain about Foley being gifted a head coach position, even though he's quietly built his way up for a few years.

Leo should have been given an assistant/underage spot, or even went away to do a season or two with an AIL team.

He's the fowards coach at a top-level club with some of the highest paid and best regarded players in the world despite having zero coaching experience.

The_Captain

The_Captain wrote: »

We were quick enough to complain about Foley being gifted a head coach position, even though he's quietly built his way up for a few years.

Leo should have been given an assistant/underage spot, or even went away to do a season or two with an AIL team.

He's the fowards coach at a top-level club with some of the highest paid and best regarded players in the world despite having zero coaching experience.

This is totally accurate.
Dempsey has been working away with the As and underage teams for quite some time at this stage. Couldn't Leo have helped him out for a bit at first?

Teferi

Is this not revisiting old territory lads? We've been saying since he was announced that it was mad that he was shifted straight into a first team role.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there was a definite and clear slide in 2012/13. Yes we only lost to Clemont in the H cup but our standard of play was much lower than where it was in 11/12. We weren't playing that same open attacking rugby any more and we were making a lot of mistakes.

It definitely improved when we got through the injury crisis after January but I think 12/13 proves that even an established coach in a team with much more leadership struggles hugely with disruption.

I suppose it depends what you define a slide as being. Is a coach going to suffer due to disruptions? Of course. Regardless of who the coach is. The first half of 2012/13 was just that. A coach suffering serious disruptions and having a harder time getting performances as a result. That has hurt MOC this season too, but I'd contend that we've been performing fairly poorly as a rule since he's taken over regardless of the level of disruptions. With Joe in 2012/13 it was an anomaly brought on by disruptions. With MOC it seems it's just highlighted an issue that has been present all along.

I keep using the same game as an example, but that's purely because it's such a good example of what I'm talking about. Edinburgh in the RDS in May. A game we absolutely needed to win to top the table. We had Cullen, Heaslip, O'Driscoll and Rob Kearney starting (in what was a very strong side) so we weren't short of leaders. Yet we struggled badly in the game despite Edinburgh having a number of injuries of their own to contend with (and losing a further 3 men in the first half). We were behind at half time and stuttered to a 2 point win.

I've no problem with a team struggling when there is serious disruption so long as they have the ability to perform outside of that disruption. Leinster have yet to really show that at all under MOC. And that's what I mean when I say "slide", i.e. that there has been a consistent drop in performance not an explainable temporary blip.

Deleted User wrote: »

This is totally accurate.
Dempsey has been working away with the As and underage teams for quite some time at this stage. Couldn't Leo have helped him out for a bit at first?

This. And conversely I would now have little trouble seeing Girv step up to the backs coach job at senior level having served his time (very successfully) with the As.

awec

CatFromHue wrote: »

He was the Captain for a good number of years so players would be used to him being in charge.

As a player he was known for a being a leader and as the saying goes "the lineout, that's Leo's baby" so he was leading some aspects of the training.

I'm happy enough with him getting the job. We;ve been training up other countries coaches for along enough so why not give one of our guys, with the same experience, a go.

World of difference between being captain and being a coach.

total former

Re; the "slide" in Joe's last season, we had a phenomenal winning run in the second half of the season, but look at the game we did lose against Ulster; no Sexton, no Nacewa, no O'Driscoll, Cullen on the bench - and we were completely rudderless. The 22-18 scoreline was flattering enough to us IIRC. That's what MOC has been contending with throughout his tenure.

But even aside from the performances on the pitch, a lot of the things that (I think) are now contributing to our predicament were in train before MOC ever arrived.

I think the 2010-12 period was an absolute golden age for us in terms of phenomenal indigenous players at or near their peak, genuine world-class imports and the coaches who could knit it all together. We've lost all of those but the wrath and ire seems reserved only for the coach. It was never going to last forever.

The home grown players we have now are good, but they are not as good as their predecessors. We cannot compete for the big name imports. Matt is not Joe and Leo is not Jono. I think people put a disproportionate amount of blame on the last of these points and don't take enough account of the first two.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

World of difference between being captain and being a coach.

That's not really possible to say so conclusively. I instantly think of how things went up North under Ulster's previous captain, who was approached to make a similar switch by some accounts.

I have no real problem with Cullen's relationship with any players. I don't think that's a problem at all. It's just his experience that's my issue.

Stainalert

total former wrote: »

Re; the "slide" in Joe's last season, we had a phenomenal winning run in the second half of the season, but look at the game we did lose against Ulster; no Sexton, no Nacewa, no O'Driscoll, Cullen on the bench - and we were completely rudderless. The 22-18 scoreline was flattering enough to us IIRC. That's what MOC has been contending with throughout his tenure.

But even aside from the performances on the pitch, a lot of the things that (I think) are now contributing to our predicament were in train before MOC ever arrived.

I think the 2010-12 period was an absolute golden age for us in terms of phenomenal indigenous players at or near their peak, genuine world-class imports and the coaches who could knit it all together. We've lost all of those but the wrath and ire seems reserved only for the coach. It was never going to last forever.

The home grown players we have now are good, but they are not as good as their predecessors. We cannot compete for the big name imports. Matt is not Joe and Leo is not Jono. I think people put a disproportionate amount of blame on the last of these points and don't take enough account of the first two.

Have Leinster ever really competed for big name imports? Open to correction but I would have thought most of the foreign signings have been below the radar kind of stuff.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

World of difference between being captain and being a coach.

A one off Captain maybe but he was club Captain for 5 seasons so would have been very influential in the dressing room.

total former

Stainalert wrote: »

Have Leinster ever really competed for big name imports? Open to correction but I would have thought most of the foreign signings have been below the radar kind of stuff.

There had always been a mix of top-level guys (Nacewa, Thorn, van der Linde etc) and mid-level (Wright, van der Merwe etc) but I'm not sure any of the current foreigners (Gopperth, Kirchner, Te'o, Douglas) would really fall into the first category.

awec

Was Nacewa really a big name when Leinster signed him?

total former

awec wrote: »

Was Nacewa really a big name when Leinster signed him?

Yes. This keeps coming up because of his lack of international caps but he was a star at Super rugby level.

The_Captain

awec wrote: »

Was Nacewa really a big name when Leinster signed him?

He was a super player who was considered a shoo-in for the ABs but for a technicality

Stainalert

total former wrote: »

There had always been a mix of top-level guys (Nacewa, Thorn, van der Linde etc) and mid-level (Wright, van der Merwe etc) but I'm not sure any of the current foreigners (Gopperth, Kirchner, Te'o, Douglas) would really fall into the first category.

Fair enough - Notwithstanding his quality I would consider Nacewa a but under the radar. Don't think Van der Linde ever really justified his rating and Thorn was with us for half a season so not really a benchmark but I take your point re recent signings.

I think our scouting network was smarter in the past and needs to be smarter going forward. There will always be players that are under rated else where and could blossom in Leinster.

awec

It may be scouting but it could also be just luck. I reckon Nacewa surpassed all expectations.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

Re; the "slide" in Joe's last season, we had a phenomenal winning run in the second half of the season, but look at the game we did lose against Ulster; no Sexton, no Nacewa, no O'Driscoll, Cullen on the bench - and we were completely rudderless. The 22-18 scoreline was flattering enough to us IIRC. That's what MOC has been contending with throughout his tenure.

But that one game ended with us hammering away at the Ulster line and Clancy going to the TMO (after he blew the final whistle). With Jennings, Heaslip, Nacewa and Rob Kearney all starting that one I don't think the issue was one of leadership tbh. It wasn't a great performance but it was also a very good Ulster team.

total former wrote: »

But even aside from the performances on the pitch, a lot of the things that (I think) are now contributing to our predicament were in train before MOC ever arrived.

I think the 2010-12 period was an absolute golden age for us in terms of phenomenal indigenous players at or near their peak, genuine world-class imports and the coaches who could knit it all together. We've lost all of those but the wrath and ire seems reserved only for the coach. It was never going to last forever.

The home grown players we have now are good, but they are not as good as their predecessors. We cannot compete for the big name imports. Matt is not Joe and Leo is not Jono. I think people put a disproportionate amount of blame on the last of these points and don't take enough account of the first two.

As I said earlier I don't like to compare where we are now to where we were a few seasons ago as I don't think there is any point in it. It's like being disappointed that technology you got a few years back isn't as good as it was. Things move on and change over time. From 2010/11 to 2012/13 the expectation should have been that Leinster would challenge for trophies in the league and in Europe. Now the expectation should be the Leinster should challenge for trophies in the league and have a decent showing in Europe. We did that last year but we look like we could really struggle to do it this year. The QF exit last year was fine when you look at the circumstances (away to Toulon). A SF should be the expectation this year given that our pool was relatively handy and we have a home QF.

As for the squad we probably have slightly weaker individuals in some spots but on the other hand we have a far better depth.

I think the difference between you and I is a matter of degrees when it comes to that proportion of blame.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

As I said earlier I don't like to compare where we are now to where we were a few seasons ago as I don't think there is any point in it. It's like being disappointed that technology you got a few years back isn't as good as it was. Things move on and change over time. From 2010/11 to 2012/13 the expectation should have been that Leinster would challenge for trophies in the league and in Europe. Now the expectation should be the Leinster should challenge for trophies in the league and have a decent showing in Europe. We did that last year but we look like we could really struggle to do it this year. The QF exit last year was fine when you look at the circumstances (away to Toulon). A SF should be the expectation this year given that our pool was relatively handy and we have a home QF.

As for the squad we probably have slightly weaker individuals in some spots but on the other hand we have a far better depth.

I think the difference between you and I is a matter of degrees when it comes to that proportion of blame.

Maybe that should be the expectation but it isn't - we won the league last season and did well in the HEC, but the rumblings about O'Connor started very early on and just got louder and louder as the season progressed (despite it being an improvement on the previous season).

Apportioning blame is very tricky because we've no idea what is going on behind the scenes. The players say they like O'Connor, he's a good coach and they support him; maybe it's bullsh*t, maybe not, who knows? O'Connor had a good CV coming here but it was a seriously poisoned chalice to take on and maybe he's not up to it, who knows?

But we can see that we have lost key players, we can see that we have been decimated by injury, we can see that international call-ups have played havoc with squad continuity. These are things we know but I think that they are being downplayed for the easy solution of "sack the coach" (not you, molloyjh, but a serious number of posters).

O'Connor has taken serious flak here for some of his selection policies too, most notably Boss vs McGrath and Gopperth v Madigan. I think these have been the right calls and have been borne out by events, but they have not been popular and have set a good number of people against him.

ssaye2

Ross O'Carroll Kelly trained today.

Didn't know he was with the Academy again

ssaye2

Looks like a bad van to do a bank job

total former

Proof of life for Brendan Macken. A relief to all of us.

MugMugs

total former wrote: »

O'Connor has taken serious flak here for some of his selection policies too, most notably Boss vs McGrath and Gopperth v Madigan. I think these have been the right calls and have been borne out by events, but they have not been popular and have set a good number of people against him.

It still beggars belief how Leinster managed to take The Rabo last year.

His selection policy hasn't turned me against him albeit, I still cannot understand why he has favoured Gopperth over Mads when it's clear the potential that Mads has.

Why was Ross dropped?

My biggest gripe with MoC is the day we played Toulon last year. Uncontested rucks and lineouts.......... against Toulon. It was on that day I washed my hands of him.

How he is scraping 47 points right now is beyond me.

Losing at home to the Dragons? Seriously??

.ak

People seem to forget we were right in that game halfway through the 2nd half until a freak try let Toulon slip away. Aside from all the silly errors I thought we got a lot right that day, especially the the tactical calls.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

People seem to forget we were right in that game halfway through the 2nd half until a freak try let Toulon slip away. Aside from all the silly errors I thought we got a lot right that day, especially the the tactical calls.

Toulon got their first try 6 minutes into the second half to go 10 points ahead and we never really looked like we had a real handle on the game after that. They pulled away mid-way through the second half, but the damage was done from that first try (and the penalty before it).

Still I think about the only criticism I'd have of that game was the selection of Gopperth to start despite him not having played in nearly 8 weeks. A loss to Toulon in Toulon should be expected so it wasn't that damning at all.

Heroditas

.ak wrote: »

People seem to forget we were right in that game halfway through the 2nd half until a freak try let Toulon slip away. Aside from all the silly errors I thought we got a lot right that day, especially the the tactical calls.

We were quite lucky that poor handling and rushes of blood to the head didn't result in some Toulon tries in the first few minutes of the first half though.

Tox56

total former wrote: »

Maybe that should be the expectation but it isn't - we won the league last season and did well in the HEC, but the rumblings about O'Connor started very early on and just got louder and louder as the season progressed (despite it being an improvement on the previous season).

Apportioning blame is very tricky because we've no idea what is going on behind the scenes. The players say they like O'Connor, he's a good coach and they support him; maybe it's bullsh*t, maybe not, who knows? O'Connor had a good CV coming here but it was a seriously poisoned chalice to take on and maybe he's not up to it, who knows?

But we can see that we have lost key players, we can see that we have been decimated by injury, we can see that international call-ups have played havoc with squad continuity. These are things we know but I think that they are being downplayed for the easy solution of "sack the coach" (not you, molloyjh, but a serious number of posters).

O'Connor has taken serious flak here for some of his selection policies too, most notably Boss vs McGrath and Gopperth v Madigan. I think these have been the right calls and have been borne out by events, but they have not been popular and have set a good number of people against him.

You say this but do you really believe it in any way? Maybe I'm wrong but based on all the posts you've made I really don't think it's fair to say you accept that is a serious possibility

.ak

Heroditas wrote: »

We were quite lucky that poor handling and rushes of blood to the head didn't result in some Toulon tries in the first few minutes of the first half though.

Equally they were lucky they didn't stick. Kearney, bod and Darce were making line breaks for fun at times, but just couldn't hang onto the ball.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

It may be scouting but it could also be just luck. I reckon Nacewa surpassed all expectations.

Everything I've seen suggests he was very highly rated in super rugby. Becoming a club legend isn't something you can predict for any signing so in that sense he surpassed expectations, but Leinster would still have had very high expectations when he came over I think

Tox56

Tox56 wrote: »

Everything I've seen suggests he was very highly rated in super rugby. Becoming a club legend isn't something you can predict for any signing so in that sense he surpassed expectations, but Leinster would still have had very high expectations when he came over I think

He was a certainly a brilliant player before he ever signed for Leinster. I watched a lot of the S14 that year and was absolutely delighted when he signed.

SaveOurLyric

With the level of players and depth in the squad, selection almost doesnt matter for the level of performance they have achieved.

A monkey, or an octopus in a tank could pick them and they would still do more or less the same.

But instead of one shoddy game after the next, we should be seeing them cruising at the top of the league, putting in complete games of variety and invention, with a clear steady improvement over time in their performance, and be a team predicted by all to be involved in the European Cup deciding game at whatever stage of the competition that happened to occur.
We get rudderless disjointed games and they look like a schoolboy trial team who hardly know each other, not highly paid full time professionals. (Schoolboys trialists - sorry. I am being unfair to you, but you know what I mean).

.ak

So COS is alive...



He's on a senior contract now isn't he? If he isn't involved soon I reckon he'll be off. He's actually a smashing player, and an out n out 13, would love to see him get some more game time with the A's atleast.

scott1974

Looks like we should finally see Ruddock this weekend..

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13274.php#.VOx_9HysX94

.ak

scott1974 wrote: »

Looks like we should finally see Ruddock this weekend..

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13274.php#.VOx_9HysX94

He was doing contact work last week too however.

total former

I dunno, his arm is still massively strapped.

TommyOM

MOC has been absolutely brutal as head coach and no amount of waffley excuses about him trying to implement this incredibly complicated playing strategy, which I personally think IBF just pulled out of his arse, will change that. It has been two years now and Leinster's play has declined even further.

Watch Leinster play. They are completely pedestrian with ball in hand, MOC is supposed to be a backs coach first and foremost and he can't even get our backline to look in anyway decent against top level opposition. The amount of unforced errors is staggering and has become endemic (again we see the same excuses that were rolled out under Kidney, that unforced errors are the players fault not the coaches, being utilized by the MOC Gestapo)

In two years we have seen nothing from Leinster, a one off game against Northampton last year. The following week we lost to that Northampton team at home. Once again the similarities with Leinster under MOC and Ireland under Declan Kidney are staggering. The incosistency in performances is mind blowing. Just like Ireland under Kidney we are painfully reminded of the teams potential in these one off games which are followed by dozens of poor to meddling performances. When you beat a team like Northampton by that scoreline away, then lose without a whimper at home the following week, then you absolutely have to look at coaching ticket.

We have posters on this very board that are basically asking Leinter fans to lower their expectations, asking us to remember how bad Leinster were in the years before 2008 and that sort of attitude is just pathetic. Leinster had poor coaches then too and the fans were wrong then not to hold higher standards of that Leinster team. This Leinster team can choose from 6 Irish internationals (two starters, one of them a Lions) in the front row, an Australian and two Irish internationals in the second row (one of them a starter), 4 Irish internationals (two of them starters, two of them Lions) in the backrow, 3 Irish internationals in the half back pairing, 3 Irish internationals and a South African international starter (one of them a Lion) at wing and an Irish international starter and Lion at full back.

And when I say Irish international I am not talking about players that have had one or two caps in meaningless games either. I mean when posters talk about Leinster losing the likes of BOD, Nacewa, Sexton and Cullen as an excuse they forget two things. Firstly that it has been two years now since then and it can't be consistently dished out as an excuse and secondly that Leinster have more internationals in their starting 22 than ever before. And in my opinion Fitzgerald has played as well as BOD did in his last season at 13 and Douglas has been better than Cullen was in his last season.

When you look at the teams on that Rabo table it is criminal to even suggest that Leinster shouldn't be winning like they used to because of the loss of Nacewa and Sexton two years ago. If anything, the standard of the Rabo has gotten worse with the flight of Welsh players. Leinster have a squad of internationals that even teams like even Munster, Ulster and Glasgow could only dream of (before any provincial nonsense starts, Munster and Ulster are playing better than Leinster no arguments but Leinster most definitely have better personnel than both those teams overall).

It is sad to see Leinster fans being content with making the play offs of the Rabo and getting out of a european cup group. Some are even content with just achieving one of these goals. It shows just how far we have fallen. Leinster have been scrapping wins being an unorganized mess because of the quality of players. Most of these players are playing flawless games for Ireland at a higher level and then making compeletely uncharacteristic errors for Leinster at a lower level. You can't tell me that isn't down to coaching.

Leinster's game plan has been the exact same all season. There is no variation for different teams, there is no plan B when the game is going poorly. That is down to coaching. Give me one example of Leinster changing up their game at half-time when they were losing badly?

And finally lets address Leinster's apparent slide under Schmidt's last season. It's horse****. Leinster had a slow start due to injuries that lasted 3 months (and even then the slow start has been completely overplayed) The next 6 months Leinster were an absolute joy to behold. Even when Leinster were struggling at the start they still nearly managed to beat Clermont away with a raft of injuries. Now Leinster can't even beat Munster at home, let alone away. In Schmidt's last season when posters like IBF will have you believe that the decline was already underway, pundits were saying that had Leinster progressed from their group they probably would have been in another final. The MOC fans claim that games like the Amlin final cloud our judgement of Schmidt's final season when it is much more likely that the back to back games against Clermont cloud theirs. Leinster won the league and won the Amlin playing sensational rugby. Back to back wins against Munster, 30 plus pt wins in fixtures against Zebre, Treviso, Dragons to name three and beating Ulster and then losing narrowly. The only game where Leinster were stuffed that season was against Connacht away at the start of the season and I think that game along with going out at the group stages completely clouds people's opinions of Leinster. Go and take a look at the scorelines of Leinster's 7 defeats that season (Clermont, Clermont, Ulster being three of those) and tell me Leinster were on a decline that can in anyway be used as a defence for the performances Leinster have been pulling out under MOC.

Matt O'Connor needs to go. Leinster have some incredible up and coming players that I personally do not want to be learning under him we have seen how players such as Keith Earls who could have been even better have been affected by a succession of poor coaches. I don't want the likes of Jordi Murphy, Jack Conan, Furlong, Moore and Dan Leavy being coached to take the ball statically during their most important development years. I don't want Luke McGrath to lose confidence in his blatently apparent ability because of a poor coach. I don't want Ian Madigan coached out of confidence and I fear for the likes of Ringrose, Ross Byrne, Colm O'Shea and other potential stars in the Academy when they are forced out from under Dempsey.

If you don't stop the rot now it will be too late.

Buer

TLDR.

.ak

I'm still not sure why, with the players we have, we're not allowed play a team in the RWC.

total former

Buer wrote: »

TLDR.

Got to "MOC Gestapo", realised what we were dealing with, packed it in.

Dravokivich

TommyOM wrote: »

It is sad to see Leinster fans being content with making the play offs of the Rabo and getting out of a european cup group. Some are even content with just achieving one of these goals. It shows just how far we have fallen.

You think that is something we are content with? I think that's something Leinster should be regularly competing for. You can always want your team to win and be suscessful, but you can't always expect it.

In the Pro12 alone there are viable contenders such as Munster, Ulster and Glasgow. Ospreys seemed to have regained some form after a dip over the last couple of seasons and Connacht are really starting to buuild up on something with Pat Lam. Europe, as always before is going to be a pool based on pot luck and knock out stages of attrition.

As a Leinster fan am I content now? No not really. And it's about the performance on the field over the results and the slot on the table. And my issue isn't about individuals themselves either. It's just as a team quite often they don't really seem to be tuned into each other. I find it hard to follow and watch a team that doesn't seem to be playing together as a team. What's needed to change that. I truly don't know. But it's be too brash a suggestion to lay it on MOC. It may be something he has to contend with, but I doubt it's something of his own doing.

TommyOM

TommyOM wrote: »

If you don't stop the rot now it will be too late.

accensi0n

TommyOM wrote: »

.........

If you don't stop the rot now it will be too late.

Cool story brah.

Glass Prison 1214

MOC isn't perfect, but he gets far more criticism than he deserves. He's a decent coach.

vienne86

total former wrote: »

Got to "MOC Gestapo", realised what we were dealing with, packed it in.

Glad I read this before I read that!

SaveOurLyric

Buer wrote: »

TLDR.

Hey. This short attention span generation. You should have.

Its on the money and would elucidate many on the MOC malaise. Hopefully its long because its only a digest of an internal Leinster Rugby memo.