Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

awec

No chance of Te'o at 13?

thomond2006

If D'Arcy was going to start vs Bath then surely he would have started against Glasgow.

shuffol

I'd say it'll be Madigan/Fitz in the center with a Kearney/Kearney/Mcfadden back 3. Possibly Kirchner in for Mcfadden.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

If D'Arcy was going to start vs Bath then surely he would have started against Glasgow.

All I can say to this is: Gopperth vs Toulon.

I'd expect:

Healy Cronin Ross
Toner McCarthy
Murphy Heaslip SOB

Reddan Gopperth
Madigan Fitz
D Kearney R Kearney McFadden

Strauss, McGrath, Moore, Douglas/Denton, Jenno, Boss, Darce, Te'o

I think Ross will start so that we can target their scrum given their injuries up front. I expect Rhys is still injured, although he was training during the week. If fit he'll start with Murphy going to the bench. Reddan injected real pace into the game on Saturday when we were finally able to get ourselves into an attacking position so while Boss did really well I'd expect Reds to get the nod.

Huge game. Imagine making the SF in Europe and not making the play-offs in the league. Have we become Edinburgh or something!? :eek:

Buer

Moore doesn't deserve to start after the weekend. I'm a big fan but that was a really poor showing from him and his biggest contribution was clouting Reddan. Tadhg Furlong will be the hardest done by man in Leinster as I expect him to miss out after coming on and putting himself about. He was solid in the scrum, tackles and carried decently and won a big penalty on our own 22.

Murphy will start but can count himself lucky. His role in the opening try is the stuff that should have any flanker cringing with embarrassment. Jennings worked a lot harder than him but doesn't have the ability to impact a game like he could anymore so has to settle for the 20 jersey. Conan to drop out of the 23 entirely and there can't be too much argument. Ryan likewise with even less debate. SOB and Heaslip pick themselves.

Healy is coming back into fitness and we desperately need a forward who can carry and make yards for us in the close exchanges.

Boss has made a real case for himself and I think we might see him start. Reddan might well not be fit after the game anyway. Gopperth will obviously be at 10 and Madigan at 12.

Te'o is still very raw in the subtler elements but he's looking like a real weapon in attack. He thundered over the gain line a number of times and has a lovely, soft offload that we saw a few times against Glasgow. When we were in their 22 in the first half, he was the only one making ground. I don't think we can throw him in yet, though, as someone like Joseph would stand him up and dance around him. I think we have to look at Fitzgerald for that role.

Back three of Kearney x 2 and McFadden. Kirchner can count himself lucky to be in the 23 jersey and I honestly wouldn't be against giving it to Te'o with Dave Kearney covering 15. He missed three tackles at the weekend, all important ones and all bread and butter for a full back.

At lock, it's probably Toner and McCarthy. Douglas won't have any game time in a few weeks (which he probably needed as a break) and McCarthy, while a bit loose, did look like he was putting it in making one big hit in the first half and showing huge appetite to cover back after Ryan and Fitz made a mess of possession late on.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

Huge game. Imagine making the SF in Europe and not making the play-offs in the league. Have we become Edinburgh or something!? :eek:

Munster, molloy, the answer we were looking for was Munster.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=11189&season=2012-2013#cfFBqIrRITPb5CPe.97

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/20946.php

case885

SaveOurLyric wrote:

We do not want to end up slipping off the pace like Munster. Look at how many of the 'greatest fans in the world' are turning out to see their liginds these days (and thats just having to go across the road - never mind Homeric tales of hitch hiking for 3 days to the south of France via Denmark after crossing from Shannon to Normandy in a home made rubber dingy - and still only on the off chance of picking up tickets to the sold out game on the day). The difference is, that Munster's pool of quality players dipped dramatically in the last five years compared to their glory years.

They're probably the fans that were from outside Munster mostly Leinster I believe and have jumped ship again, better off without the bandwagon supporters.

case885

case885 wrote: »

They're probably the fans that were from outside Munster mostly Leinster I believe and have jumped ship again, better off without the bandwagon supporters.

While I'm sure it's nice to feel smug and superior to a so called bandwagon supporter, their money is as good as anyone elses. How you figure having 40k in Lansdowne next weekend is somehow better than having 50k I do not know.

Buer

case885 wrote: »

They're probably the fans that were from outside Munster mostly Leinster I believe and have jumped ship again, better off without the bandwagon supporters.

Those supporters are needed whether people like them or not. Their money is worth the exact same as mine or yours.

case885

Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote:

While I'm sure it's nice to feel smug and superior to a so called bandwagon supporter, their money is as good as anyone elses. How you figure having 40k in Lansdowne next weekend is somehow better than having 50k I do not know.

The post was firmly tongue in cheek if you didn't notice, its a bit ironic a Leinster fan pointing out Munster fans lack of support that was more the point.

case885

case885 wrote: »

The post was firmly tongue in cheek if you didn't notice, its a bit ironic a Leinster fan pointing out Munster fans lack of support that was more the point.

Ah right, in that case my apologies, I didn't get it.

irishbucsfan

I preferred the days back in the early 20s when it was just me and washman

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I preferred the days back in the early 20s when it was just me and washman

Oh for the days when bandwagon was spelled bandwagen. :pac:

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Moore doesn't deserve to start after the weekend. I'm a big fan but that was a really poor showing from him and his biggest contribution was clouting Reddan. Tadhg Furlong will be the hardest done by man in Leinster as I expect him to miss out after coming on and putting himself about. He was solid in the scrum, tackles and carried decently and won a big penalty on our own 22.

Murphy will start but can count himself lucky. His role in the opening try is the stuff that should have any flanker cringing with embarrassment. Jennings worked a lot harder than him but doesn't have the ability to impact a game like he could anymore so has to settle for the 20 jersey. Conan to drop out of the 23 entirely and there can't be too much argument. Ryan likewise with even less debate. SOB and Heaslip pick themselves.

Healy is coming back into fitness and we desperately need a forward who can carry and make yards for us in the close exchanges.

Boss has made a real case for himself and I think we might see him start. Reddan might well not be fit after the game anyway. Gopperth will obviously be at 10 and Madigan at 12.

Te'o is still very raw in the subtler elements but he's looking like a real weapon in attack. He thundered over the gain line a number of times and has a lovely, soft offload that we saw a few times against Glasgow. When we were in their 22 in the first half, he was the only one making ground. I don't think we can throw him in yet, though, as someone like Joseph would stand him up and dance around him. I think we have to look at Fitzgerald for that role.

Back three of Kearney x 2 and McFadden. Kirchner can count himself lucky to be in the 23 jersey and I honestly wouldn't be against giving it to Te'o with Dave Kearney covering 15. He missed three tackles at the weekend, all important ones and all bread and butter for a full back.

At lock, it's probably Toner and McCarthy. Douglas won't have any game time in a few weeks (which he probably needed as a break) and McCarthy, while a bit loose, did look like he was putting it in making one big hit in the first half and showing huge appetite to cover back after Ryan and Fitz made a mess of possession late on.

I'd agree with most of that. One thing though is that a few scrums in the second half were directly in front of us on the terrace and Furlong was under huge pressure in all 3. He def went backwards in 2 of them. I didn't think he did that well at scrum time at all.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Munster, molloy, the answer we were looking for was Munster.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=11189&season=2012-2013#cfFBqIrRITPb5CPe.97

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/20946.php

Hey, you leave my hyperbole alone God damn it!

stephen_n

Madigan will probably start at 12 for his kicking, not exactly what message that sends Goperth or Madigan really. I'd prefer the see D'Arcy and Luke. I reckon after his 6n performances Ross will nudge the 3 jersey with Moore on the bench, Healy will probably start too as he's a bit headless chicken off the bench. Don't see T'eo on the bench, too restrictive in positions covered.

Clegg

Ruddock has been ruled out for the rest of the season. His arm hasn't recovered properly from the break in December and needs to be operated on. Huge blow for Leinster as he's a nailed in starter. Also a huge blow for Ruddock's international hopes. After coming in so well in the AI's he hasn't had the chance to play since then. Might even miss the World Cup as he's short on games. Hopefully will impress in the warm ups.

total former

Clegg wrote: »

Ruddock has been ruled out for the rest of the season. His arm hasn't recovered properly from the break in December and needs to be operated on. Huge blow for Leinster as he's a nailed in starter. Also a huge blow for Ruddock's international hopes. After coming in so well in the AI's he hasn't had the chance to play since then. Might even miss the World Cup as he's short on games. Hopefully will impress in the warm ups.

Ahhhh bollocks

That's his RWC over I'm afraid. Back row is too competitive.

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

Ruddock has been ruled out for the rest of the season. His arm hasn't recovered properly from the break in December and needs to be operated on. Huge blow for Leinster as he's a nailed in starter. Also a huge blow for Ruddock's international hopes. After coming in so well in the AI's he hasn't had the chance to play since then. Might even miss the World Cup as he's short on games. Hopefully will impress in the warm ups.

That's really, really crappy news. For him and for Leinster. Hopefully he'll get a shot at impressing over the summer.

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

Ruddock has been ruled out for the rest of the season. His arm hasn't recovered properly from the break in December and needs to be operated on. Huge blow for Leinster as he's a nailed in starter. Also a huge blow for Ruddock's international hopes. After coming in so well in the AI's he hasn't had the chance to play since then. Might even miss the World Cup as he's short on games. Hopefully will impress in the warm ups.

Terrible news but not surprising. Has looked very uncomfortable a couple of times with it and has been holding it after contact in games.

Really disappointed for him.

Buer

Can't see him making the RWC. Too long an absence in an area where there are too many options that have been involved since his last appearance. Probably 5 back row spots: Heaslip, POM and SOB are definitely travelling. Henry and Murphy have to be favourites for the other two spots and TOD is in the mix too. Ruddock will need to do something mightily impressive in the warm ups if he's even selected in them.

awec

The only way he'll make the WC now is if someone else gets injured.

Buer

On an unrelated note, the EPC have announced the weekends for next season's tournament:

Round 1: 12/13/14/15 November
Round 2: 19/20/21/22 November
Round 3: 10/11/12/13 December
Round 4: 17/18/19/20 December
Round 5: 14/15/16/17 January 2016
Round 6: 21/22/23/24 January 2016

The first game of the ECC takes place 13 days after the RWC final and 14 days after the 3rd place play off. Essentially, if Ireland get to the RWC semi finals, Leinster are in big trouble in the tournament. About 16 players will only have a week to prepare for the first two rounds of the tournament.

TheGoldenAges

Buer wrote: »

On an unrelated note, the EPC have announced the weekends for next season's tournament:

Round 1: 12/13/14/15 November
Round 2: 19/20/21/22 November
Round 3: 10/11/12/13 December
Round 4: 17/18/19/20 December
Round 5: 14/15/16/17 January 2016
Round 6: 21/22/23/24 January 2016

The first game of the ECC takes place 13 days after the RWC final and 14 days after the 3rd place play off. Essentially, if Ireland get to the RWC semi finals, Leinster are in big trouble in the tournament. About 16 players will only have a week to prepare for the first two rounds of the tournament.

At least it'll be at the start of our season.

CatFromHue

I'm not too pushed about that as the English will only have started around then too, as far as I know it can't be played during the RWC.

Plus MOC will have a steeled squad for 2 months or so which he's never had before.

thomond2006

Bath only won by 15 at LW today: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32038711

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bath only won by 15 at LW today: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32038711

Seems a few players were rested.

blackdog1

Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »

Seems a few players were rested.

Weather was atrocious by all accounts. Big question for the weekend is about Ross. Wouldn't surprise me to see him dropped from the 23 again....After he was arguably the best th in the 6 nations. Don't fancy a goperth Madigan centre partnership either it's too lightweight for me...Madigan is coming along great there but he's not giteau when it comes to tackling. Bath are seriously dangerous 9n the counter attack and our Def will need to be top class the weekend.

errlloyd

blackdog1 wrote: »

Weather was atrocious by all accounts. Big question for the weekend is about Ross. Wouldn't surprise me to see him dropped from the 23 again....After he was arguably the best th in the 6 nations. Don't fancy a goperth Madigan centre partnership either it's too lightweight for me...Madigan is coming along great there but he's not giteau when it comes to tackling. Bath are seriously dangerous 9n the counter attack and our Def will need to be top class the weekend.

I actually think his tackling is one of the strongest parts of his game. His stats are generally pretty good. I remember him nailing North one on one in the H/Cup last year. He loses ground in the contact for sure, but he usually stops his man eventually.

CatFromHue

errlloyd wrote: »

I actually think his tackling is one of the strongest parts of his game. His stats are generally pretty good. I remember him nailing North one on one in the H/Cup last year. He loses ground in the contact for sure, but he usually stops his man eventually.

he missed a straight up tackle on Friday that led to one of their tries but that was very much an exception to the rule. he's got quite a good technique when he's tackling

errlloyd

According to the stats that was his only miss though, the rest of the backs were dropping tackles left right and centre.

vienne86

Only just read about Ruddock's injury problem now - gutted for the guy and for Leinster - he had a terrific autumn and he is a big loss for Leinster and for Ireland in the RWC.

CatFromHue

errlloyd wrote: »

According to the stats that was his only miss though, the rest of the backs were dropping tackles left right and centre.

oh yeah i agree. that missed tackle by madigan was only noticeable, to me anyway, as he doesn't miss many/any

Buer

Madigan is a pretty solid tackler. Plenty of carriers have tried to go through him and failed to do so. He has an uncanny way of holding on grimly, yielding a couple of yards but never being bounced. He doesn't make too many mistakes with smaller carriers, either. Eastmond and Joseph aren't exactly tanks so Madigan should be fine.

I fully expect us to put Murphy and SOB carrying in midfield on a number of occasions to target Eastmond. He's a good player but pretty lightweight although the Bath back row does a good job of covering across.

A positive for us is the fact that Jerome Garces is in charge. He has officiated in two of our games already this season (Quins away and Wasps away) where we were able to gain a number of penalties at the breakdown. We also played him well for Ireland against Scotland. He was in charge of Bath when they were hammered away to Glasgow. With both of their first choice props potentially out for the game, the scrum could be key especially with a French referee.

thomond2006

Is Burgess going to bench with Eastmond and JJ starting?

.ak

I struggle seeing Burgess involved at all... Would be great if both T'eo and Burgess played tho, both would be playing out of their skin I reckon.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Madigan is a pretty solid tackler. Plenty of carriers have tried to go through him and failed to do so. He has an uncanny way of holding on grimly, yielding a couple of yards but never being bounced. He doesn't make too many mistakes with smaller carriers, either. Eastmond and Joseph aren't exactly tanks so Madigan should be fine.

I fully expect us to put Murphy and SOB carrying in midfield on a number of occasions to target Eastmond. He's a good player but pretty lightweight although the Bath back row does a good job of covering across.

A positive for us is the fact that Jerome Garces is in charge. He has officiated in two of our games already this season (Quins away and Wasps away) where we were able to gain a number of penalties at the breakdown. We also played him well for Ireland against Scotland. He was in charge of Bath when they were hammered away to Glasgow. With both of their first choice props potentially out for the game, the scrum could be key especially with a French referee.

Agree. Tackling is a very solid part of Madigan's game - nothing to fear here.

Another good part of his game has been his passing however for whatever reason MO'C has him and Gopps sending long passes to try and get the ball out wide quickly and it hasn't worked for us really at all.

Aside from the intercepts it's leaving players static and open to getting hit early and pushed back and yet we move the ball this way a couple of times every game. I cringe everytime I see the ball floating slowly across the gainline on some long looping pass.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

I struggle seeing Burgess involved at all... Would be great if both T'eo and Burgess played tho, both would be playing out of their skin I reckon.

Bruce Craig's accountant might have a problem with that.

the baby bull elephant

Buer wrote: »

Madigan is a pretty solid tackler. Plenty of carriers have tried to go through him and failed to do so. He has an uncanny way of holding on grimly, yielding a couple of yards but never being bounced. He doesn't make too many mistakes with smaller carriers, either. Eastmond and Joseph aren't exactly tanks so Madigan should be fine.

I fully expect us to put Murphy and SOB carrying in midfield on a number of occasions to target Eastmond. He's a good player but pretty lightweight although the Bath back row does a good job of covering across.

A positive for us is the fact that Jerome Garces is in charge. He has officiated in two of our games already this season (Quins away and Wasps away) where we were able to gain a number of penalties at the breakdown. We also played him well for Ireland against Scotland. He was in charge of Bath when they were hammered away to Glasgow. With both of their first choice props potentially out for the game, the scrum could be key especially with a French referee.

Eastmond defends pretty much the way you just described Madigan, he was a pretty high completion rate. The loss of yards in contact shouldn't be glossed over though, given how vital front food ball is.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree. Tackling is a very solid part of Madigan's game - nothing to fear here.

Another good part of his game has been his passing however for whatever reason MO'C has him and Gopps sending long passes to try and get the ball out wide quickly and it hasn't worked for us really at all.

Aside from the intercepts it's leaving players static and open to getting hit early and pushed back and yet we move the ball this way a couple of times every game. I cringe everytime I see the ball floating slowly across the gainline on some long looping pass.

Ah yes the big loopy cut out pass. As thomond will tell you it is almost as bad to me as the box kick is to him. I despair every time I see it from Leinster.

.ak

Despite our poor form this year I'm really excited about this. I have a feeling both coach and players are a bit more invested in the Cup this year, not sure if that's a conscience decision or not. I think both teams are playing fantastic rugby and I can see a bit of a repeat of the Wasps final pool game again. We just need to shore up the defence. I think it's far too easy to look at miss tackles and say the players are at fault, I really think our defensive system is putting too much pressure on the tackler especially when they're often faced with one on one situations. So last season we looked to employ two defenders and whilst our attack suffered from it I'd prefer to go back to that system as it's knock out rugby.

The pack almost picks itself with Ruddock out and Douglas under pressure with lack of game time - I actually thought McCarthy did some really good things on Friday, and simply put we just don't have anyone near his physicality or strength in the side. For every tackle he slips off he makes up for it with a monster clear out. Some interesting calls up front and especially at tighthead, but I reckon it'll be;

01. Healy
02. Cronin
03. Ross
04. Toner
05. McCarthy
06. Murphy
07. SOB
08. Heaslip

For the backs this is where it could go a few different ways. MOC has definitely begun to weave a pretty strong attacking system into the side over the past few months, despite some people thinking 'he has no gameplan', there has been good structure in our attack. Whilst not scintillating first phase attacking football there is some nice subtle aspects to it, namely screening one out runners with one support player, a double edged sword that relies on one player clearing if the ball player goes to contact, but the upside is the options the carrier has is far greater in terms of distribution and also it's hard to defend against as you can't be at all narrow.

The Murphy try was a great example of it, and we employed it a lot against Scarlets too. I think it says a lot that despite only winning 9 games in the league we're 5th because of our try bonus points (7), we know how to attack and I think MOC does bring a good structured plan to the table in terms of working defences and breaching them. The big worry though is we've sacrificed our defence because of it. We're struggling to find a balance, as a team, to offer a more complete system across the park.

With that in mind I'd go for some strong one out defenders in the backline. The hardest pick of all is 12. I think Darce offers exactly what we need in defence; a wise head and guy who will keep on eye on the position of all the other defenders, not to mention he's a stout tackler. But unless Madigan starts at 10 it just won't happen, we need Madigan's boot more than anything else right now. I have a feeling Reddan is going to back up a fairly average opener with a big training session later this week, and thus cement his place. But Boss can feel unlucky, in what was probably one of his finest games of his career on Friday.

09. Reddan
10. Gopperth
11. Dave Kearney
12. Madigan
13. Fitzgerald
14. McFadden
15. Rob Kearney

Bench then sort of picks itself, depending on injuries/return to play protocol.

16. Strauss
17. McGrath
18. Moore
19. Douglas
20. Jennings
21. Boss
22. Darce
23. T'eo/Kirchner

I think T'eo might just fit in there... He's actually been a standout performer for us in attack, but his defence and work around the breakdown is still a long way off elite level imo. But he's a fantastic athlete and probably the best dynamic runner and offloader in the squad. Kirchner had a muck game on Friday so he may well have played himself out of the picture. Completely depends on both T'eo and McFadden's fitness though as both players seemed to have some issues with their calves during the game.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah yes the big loopy cut out pass. As thomond will tell you it is almost as bad to me as the box kick is to him. I despair every time I see it from Leinster.

It's really awful now. I think it's almost muscle memory from the Schmidt days when our pack used to be able to bring defences into a narrow pattern. But now we don't do that so the cut out pass is almost irrelevant. It's the equivalent of a cross-field kick when it's being covered. To me it's the prime example why Madigan will never be a good play maker, these are things you just can't teach/coach, he lacks vision and the ability to read the game outside of his immediate channel.

There was one cut out pass which was absolutely awful the other day, the Glasgow defence read it so easily there was an interception/pressure on the receiver.

If he was clever about it so many teams know he does it he should just wind-up like he's about to do it then cancel and cut back inside, might catch a few drifters out.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Another good part of his game has been his passing however for whatever reason MO'C has him and Gopps sending long passes to try and get the ball out wide quickly and it hasn't worked for us really at all.

In fairness, the unnecessary long pass has been a prominent feature for Madigan from day one.

The_Captain

To be fair to him, that's the kind of thing you only learn from experience. Most OHs don't come into their own until mid/late twenties when they've picked up enough experience to manage a game effectively.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

In fairness, the unnecessary long pass has been a prominent feature for Madigan from day one.

Yep, it's definitely not a MOC thing.

Buer

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Eastmond defends pretty much the way you just described Madigan, he was a pretty high completion rate. The loss of yards in contact should be glossed over though, given how vital front food ball is.

True enough and he's technically a good tackler. He's over a stone lighter than Madigan though so is more liable to being marched backwards and I'd expect us to have a look. He's pretty much an anomaly in so far as he's a highly rated 12 who doesn't hit 13 stone.

.ak

The_Captain wrote: »

To be fair to him, that's the kind of thing you only learn from experience. Most OHs don't come into their own until mid/late twenties when they've picked up enough experience to manage a game effectively.

I kind of see your point.. but then I think it just doesn't hold any weight when I think of guys like Paddy Jackson, Ross Byrne, and Pollard etc

I think if the guys have that natural vision and control you'll see it from an early age.

I think Madigan will get better, I just struggle seeing him becoming a controlling 10 that makes good decisions.

The_Captain

I don't think Paddy Jackson has good game management to be honest. He has great skill with the boot, but doesn't read the game and marshall his troops effectively.

That being said, I think Madigan would be better suited to playing an old-style kicking 12, he can tackle well and has the repetoire of kicks and line-break moves to keep a defence unsure.
I'd love to see Henshaw playing at 13 outside him, but that's a different story

Clearlier

The_Captain wrote: »

I don't think Paddy Jackson has good game management to be honest. He has great skill with the boot, but doesn't read the game and marshall his troops effectively.

That being said, I think Madigan would be better suited to playing an old-style kicking 12, he can tackle well and has the repetoire of kicks and line-break moves to keep a defence unsure.
I'd love to see Henshaw playing at 13 outside him, but that's a different story

I think that his game management is pretty good actually although we could perhaps be disagreeing on what 'good' means. He's certainly miles ahead of Madigan and if fit and in form by the world cup I'd be astonished not to see him included along with Madigan and Sexton. Madigan provides a better bench option but if Sexton gets injured Paddy will start ahead of Madigan.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah yes the big loopy cut out pass. As thomond will tell you it is almost as bad to me as the box kick is to him. I despair every time I see it from Leinster.

The box kick, the loopy pass and the inside ball.

Leinstertainment.