Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

.ak

Putinovsky wrote: »

I wasn't. Schmidt was dealing with a shocking injury crisis. Towards the end of the season Leinster were looking very good.

You missed my point, yet addressed it in one post.

Schmidt isn't a bad coach when leinster have an injury crisis, but MOC somehow is.

otbrugby

Hagz wrote: »

They were looking good but there was still the reality that two of the most experienced and by far the most influential players were moving on.

I firmly believe that regardless of the coach, Leinster will reclaim their spot as the top province next season because Jonathan Sexton is returning.

So you think the coach is irrelevant?
Sexton will still have to try and implement MOC's "gameplans"
The coach is as important as the players, just look at Kidney and Ireland.

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

you don't have a problem with the noticeable dip in skills or the backplay?

Leinster still have the most talented squad in the country, not that they play like that anymore.

Of course I have a problem with it. But those cracks started appearing long before MOC joined us IMO. The players are just as responsible for poor individual skills as the coach is.

Putinovsky

.ak wrote: »

You missed my point, yet addressed it in one post.

Schmidt isn't a bad coach when leinster have an injury crisis, but MOC somehow is.

MOC has nowhere near the injury crisis Schmidt had in key positions throughout the season. Remember we had Madigan at 15, Goodman at 12 and D'arcy at 13 fo back to back Clermont games? We only narrowly lost to Clermont away and missed out on point difference for Europe while still playing good rugby.

The rugby under MOC? How can you not see how brutal it is? How can you not see how sloppy we've gotten?

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

You missed my point, yet addressed it in one post.

Schmidt isn't a bad coach when leinster have an injury crisis, but MOC somehow is.

MOC is a poor coach because the skill levels have dropped noticeable and inability to adapt his bosh style of rugby to the players available to him. He is after all backs and attacks coach.
What aspect of rugby have Leinster been very good at under MOC?

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

Of course I have a problem with it. But those cracks started appearing long before MOC joined us IMO. The players are just as responsible for poor individual skills as the coach is.

So when schmidt came in and improved the skill levels, that really wasnt down to him but the players.

matthew8

Leinster are still probably top province, in large part due to depth of players. You can't focus in on individual results like at Treviso. Munster had an even worse one home to Edinburgh and Ulster lost at Zebre. I don't think MOC is the long term answer at coach, but he's not bad enough to be getting rid of in the middle of the season.

otbrugby

matthew8 wrote: »

Leinster are still probably top province, in large part due to depth of players. You can't focus in on individual results like at Treviso. Munster had an even worse one home to Edinburgh and Ulster lost at Zebre. I don't think MOC is the long term answer at coach, but he's not bad enough to be getting rid of in the middle of the season.

Not saying he should be fired midseason, I am in favour of Leinster searching for a new head coach for next season.

.ak

Hagz wrote: »

They were looking good but there was still the reality that two of the most experienced and by far the most influential players were moving on.

I firmly believe that regardless of the coach, Leinster will reclaim their spot as the top province next season because Jonathan Sexton is returning.

Me too. Infact, whilst I don't think we've ever been able to witness moc's potential attacking game plan due to the platform not being there, even if there wasn't sexton will fit into the "limited" game plan everyone talks about. He's a one man backline for a fairly limited racing attack.

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

Me too. Infact, whilst I don't think we've ever been able to witness moc's potential attacking game plan due to the platform not being there, even if there wasn't sexton will fit into the "limited" game plan everyone talks about. He's a one man backline for a fairly limited racing attack.

so the players available arent good enough is that your assertion?

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

So when schmidt came in and improved the skill levels, that really wasnt down to him but the players.

It was something he needed to improve to implement his game plan.

But that's not relevant, because MOC is not schmidt

former legend

Putinovsky wrote: »

MOC has nowhere near the injury crisis Schmidt had in key positions throughout the season. Remember we had Madigan at 15, Goodman at 12 and D'arcy at 13 fo back to back Clermont games? We only narrowly lost to Clermont away and missed out on point difference for Europe while still playing good rugby.

I genuinely think you didn't see any of these matches.

We were not playing good rugby. We were brutal against Exeter and Scarlets. Brutal. We were unlucky in Clermont but were absolutely demolished a week later. A MOC-coached team lost by one point in Galway, a Joe-coached team lost by 28.

So I don't know if it's just selective amnesia or what but I'm out.

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

so the players available arent good enough is that your assertion?

Right now they're not playing to their potential. That's not just on the coach. Not saying the coach isn't to blame for the preparation , but he certainly isn't the only one to blame.

Edit: but if you mean our halfbacks then yes, they're absolutely not good enough if we want to replace ourselves as the top province.

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

It was something he needed to improve to implement his game plan.

But that's not relevant, because MOC is not schmidt

So skills are irrelevant to MOC's gameplan?
What is relevant, size? ability to bosh it up the middle?

Putinovsky

former legend wrote: »

I genuinely think you didn't see any of these matches.

We were not playing good rugby. We were brutal against Exeter and Scarlets. Brutal. We were unlucky in Clermont but were absolutely demolished a week later. A MOC-coached team lost by one point in Galway, a Joe-coached team lost by 28.

So I don't know if it's just selective amnesia or what but I'm out.

Had a tough opener against a very well drilled and up for it Exeter but it didnt happen on the return leg. Scarlets were a bit of a bogey team at the time. Kept Clermont close away and lost at home but really no shame in that, Clermont have that ability and Leinster were going through an injury crisis at the time.

But for the rest of the season Leinster were superb.

Zzippy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think if you are a back you are better off at Ulster or Munster. Who was the last centre from Munster to play for Ireland - Philip Danaher and then Michael Kiernan?

Rob Henderson? Keith Earls?

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

You missed my point, yet addressed it in one post.

Schmidt isn't a bad coach when leinster have an injury crisis, but MOC somehow is.

I think Schmidt is actively a good coach during an injury crisis. There was the Clermont game at home that went south, but outside that we got the job done more often than not, similar to Ireland this year with a load of injuries, Schmidt is excellent at maximising the skills of hardworking players even if their natural talent isn't the greatest

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Of course I have a problem with it. But those cracks started appearing long before MOC joined us IMO. The players are just as responsible for poor individual skills as the coach is.

Sorry now ak but what are you talking about? Before MOC arrived we won the league and the Amlin and we were playing some great rugby in the latter half of Joes last season. There were loads of comments at the time about how we were good enough to have been playing in the HEC final. Our skills drop off tied in completely with MOCs arrival.

I think some people are overcompensating here for the overreaction from others....

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

It was something he needed to improve to implement his game plan.

But that's not relevant, because MOC is not schmidt

.ak wrote: »

Right now they're not playing to their potential. That's not just on the coach. Not saying the coach isn't to blame for the preparation , but he certainly isn't the only one to blame.

Ultimately the head coach is held responsible for performances and results, performances generally have been poor under MOC while results were good.
Can you expect to continuously play poorly and continue to get results?
Last weekend wasn't some anomaly, its been the norm with good performances involving accuracy and skill being very rare.

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

So skills are irrelevant to MOC's gameplan?
What is relevant, size? ability to bosh it up the middle?

Skills are absolutely relevant. But we certainly aren't trying to play like schmidt did, and that's my point. People are wondering why MOC isn't a direct replacement for Schmidt. Few are.

Handling may not be a priority. Which is absolutely right. A team that does the basics right will always beat a team that doesn't and concentrates on handling aspects. Unfortunately we're not doing the basics right and the players must hold their hands up for that also.

Bridge93

My biggest issue with the whole situation is that Northampton and the Gladgow final apart, we have been playing this s**t for 15 months. We have seen glimpses of what they are capable of yet they have rarely performed to that level.

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

Skills are absolutely relevant. But we certainly aren't trying to play like schmidt did, and that's my point. People are wondering why MOC isn't a direct replacement for Schmidt. Few are.

Handling may not be a priority. Which is absolutely right. A team that does the basics right will always beat a team that doesn't and concentrates on handling aspects. Unfortunately we're not doing the basics right and the players must hold their hands up for that also.

MOC is trying to get us to play like a premiership team, with little invention, little skill and allow about boshing the rugby and winning the physical battle..

This does not suit the players at leinster in my opinion. MOC has not shown any willingness to adapt his still/gameplan to the players at leinster.

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

Ultimately the head coach is held responsible for performances and results, performances generally have been poor under MOC while results were good.
Can you expect to continuously play poorly and continue to get results?
Last weekend wasn't some anomaly, its been the norm with good performances involving accuracy and skill being very rare.

If you think performances are solely down to coaches then we should just get rid of the 15 players on the pitch.

In Treviso we were poor, but I'm struggling to think of a game where we've actually had a quality XV put together. Kearney fluffing the ball every time he got it was hardly moc's fault.

My point is MOC is an okay coach. And right now our players are playing just ok. We can't lay the blame solely with the coach.

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

If you think performances are solely down to coaches then we should just get rid of the 15 players on the pitch.

In Treviso we were poor, but I'm struggling to think of a game where we've actually had a quality XV put together. Kearney fluffing the ball every time he got it was hardly moc's fault.

My point is MOC is an okay coach. And right now our players are playing just ok. We can't lay the blame solely with the coach.

an okay coach is not good enough, thats my point.. with an okay coach your players are going to play okay and might get to higher levels on once off occasions but you will not be consistently good.

MOC's had the benefit of having the most talented squad in the league, imagine if he was connachts coach, do you think he'd have them where Lam does?

Putinovsky

Bridge93 wrote: »

My biggest issue with the whole situation is that Northampton and the Gladgow final apart, we have been playing this s**t for 15 months. We have seen glimpses of what they are capable of yet they have rarely performed to that level.

It's like Declan Kidney with Ireland all over again. With ak becoming Gerry Thornley with his "the players must take responsibility" guff.

You can physically see that the skills have dropped off, that the team is disorganized and that MOC has abandoned what was a very effective brand of rugby

Bridge93

.ak wrote: »

If you think performances are solely down to coaches then we should just get rid of the 15 players on the pitch.

In Treviso we were poor, but I'm struggling to think of a game where we've actually had a quality XV put together. Kearney fluffing the ball every time he got it was hardly moc's fault.

My point is MOC is an okay coach. And right now our players are playing just ok. We can't lay the blame solely with the coach.

But the players have been playing only 'ok' since the start of last year.

The Lost Sheep

otbrugby wrote: »

MOC is trying to get us to play like a premiership team, with little invention, little skill and allow about boshing the rugby and winning the physical battle..

This does not suit the players at leinster in my opinion. MOC has not shown any willingness to adapt his still/gameplan to the players at leinster.

That's not fair on the premiership(:eek: not sure when id be saying that)
MOC has been in charge of a side going through a slight revolution in players especially leaders etc. He isn't trying to get Leinster to play like a premiership side.
There is still plenty of invention, skill being utilised in Leinster's play. Leinster don't have a side to "bosh things up" and are not playing like that as a result.

Tox56

Bridge93 wrote: »

My biggest issue with the whole situation is that Northampton and the Gladgow final apart, we have been playing this s**t for 15 months. We have seen glimpses of what they are capable of yet they have rarely performed to that level.

This is pretty much my problem. The focus when Schmidt left was on all the players leaving and how that would impact the team, and with all that talk it's easy to forget but we still have an outstanding squad compared to the rest of the league and in fact most teams in any league.

We contributed by far the most to Ireland and that's even with all the injuries, I don't apologise for having high expectations because the ability is clearly there. I don't think MOC is a terrible coach but I don't really see where we're going with him

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

MOC is trying to get us to play like a premiership team, with little invention, little skill and allow about boshing the rugby and winning the physical battle..

This does not suit the players at leinster in my opinion. MOC has not shown any willingness to adapt his still/gameplan to the players at leinster.

I'm sorry, but that is just a rehashed opinion across countless forums. First off, why is playing like a premiership side a bad thing? Bath, Leicester, quins etc? I'd love to play like them!

Second, all this talk of "bosh rugby" is completely unfounded. Our pack isn't doing the business so it's very easy to appear we're just a bosh team when it's so easy to get smashed behind the gain line. I don't think we've seen what MOC is capable of in terms of set piece attacks. We've seen glimpses of it, and it certainly isn't bosh rugby. When the pAck get rolling we vary our attack.

otbrugby

Tox56 wrote: »

This is pretty much my problem. The focus when Schmidt left was on all the players leaving and how that would impact the team, and with all that talk it's easy to forget but we still have an outstanding squad compared to the rest of the league and in fact most teams in any league.

We contributed by far the most to Ireland and that's even with all the injuries, I don't apologise for having high expectations because the ability is clearly there. I don't think MOC is a terrible coach but I don't really see where we're going with him

we are going downwards with him.. we will remain competitive due to the talent in the squad but we have clearly regressed under MOC. Wether you agree some of that regression begun under Schmidt or not is irrelevant we have clearly gotten worse since MOC has taken over despite our league win last season.

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

an okay coach is not good enough, thats my point.. with an okay coach your players are going to play okay and might get to higher levels on once off occasions but you will not be consistently good.

MOC's had the benefit of having the most talented squad in the league, imagine if he was connachts coach, do you think he'd have them where Lam does?

I think leinster don't have some divine right to a world class coach.

I think MOC is doing a better job than Cheiks did for example.

.ak

Bridge93 wrote: »

But the players have been playing only 'ok' since the start of last year.

Longer, I would say. We had some pretty meh performances under Schmidt too. We're dipping, it's natural after such a high. It's how we handle ourselves now is what's important. The players have so much to do with that legacy, they always have. To blame the coach is extremely blinkered.

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that is just a rehashed opinion across countless forums. First off, why is playing like a premiership side a bad thing? Bath, Leicester, quins etc? I'd love to play like them!

Second, all this talk of "bosh rugby" is completely unfounded. Our pack isn't doing the business so it's very easy to appear we're just a bosh team when it's so easy to get smashed behind the gain line. I don't think we've seen what MOC is capable of in terms of set piece attacks. We've seen glimpses of it, and it certainly isn't bosh rugby. When the pAck get rolling we vary our attack.

How is bosh rugby completely unfounded?
We signed a rugby league player to get a big ball carrier in the centre, god knows if that will actually work but MOC gambled because he is big brute. We continuously play predictable inside balls to big wingers crashing the ball up.
We do not play attractive rugby that involves skill, you said it yourself skill levels are not as important in MOC's system, size and power is.
And Leinster will not be able to compete with big french sides when it comes to power/size.
If you think playing a premiership style of rugby is what leinster rugby should be aiming for then I really don't know what to say.

We have a pack with approx 16 international players.. are you saying that they aren't good enough to implement MOC's gameplan?

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

I think leinster don't have some divine right to a world class coach.

I think MOC is doing a better job than Cheiks did for example.

never claimed they have a devine right to a world class coach but the fans have a right to expect the coach to be better than "okay".

An okay coach isn't good enough.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

People are wondering why MOC isn't a direct replacement for Schmidt.

Are they? Very few I've read have expected a direct replacement.

mr. pleasant

.ak wrote: »

We're dipping, it's natural after such a high. It's how we handle ourselves now is what's important. The players have so much to do with that legacy, they always have. To blame the coach is extremely blinkered.

Well, that might be ok for you, but I disagree.

IMO it's not just the performances of the players and a few missing players. There are defo things that irk me which are pointing to the coach like game plan (or lack thereof) and player management (Madigan under Joe vs Madigan under MOC)

I also don't think it's about "how we handle ourselves". Would that mean that no matter how bad the performances, the results, the standing in the league we have to smile and say "that's grand, sure they are only trying their best"?

Why not voice disappointment? Why not say that MOC might not be the best option?

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I think leinster don't have some divine right to a world class coach.

I think MOC is doing a better job than Cheiks did for example.

Totally different time with a totally different context. You can't directly compare them. Cheiks main job was to sort the top 2 inches, not the on-field stuff. That took priority, and as a result the game to a degree suffered. But it was for a greater good. The same doesn't hold true now for MOC.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Totally different time with a totally different context. You can't directly compare them. Cheiks main job was to sort the top 2 inches, not the on-field stuff. That took priority, and as a result the game to a degree suffered. But it was for a greater good. The same doesn't hold true now for MOC.

Have to disagree with that 100%. It's just a case of moving the goalposts to say we can't directly compare MOC and Cheika but somehow it's OK to compare MOC and Schmidt.

For the record I'd be less happy with MOC than either Cheika or Schmidt, but I think there were very similar problems under Cheika as we are finding now under MOC and it was never his job to "sort the top 2 inches" in 09/10. The only real differences are to be found in the expectations of the fans.

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

This is pretty much my problem. The focus when Schmidt left was on all the players leaving and how that would impact the team, and with all that talk it's easy to forget but we still have an outstanding squad compared to the rest of the league and in fact most teams in any league.

We contributed by far the most to Ireland and that's even with all the injuries, I don't apologise for having high expectations because the ability is clearly there. I don't think MOC is a terrible coach but I don't really see where we're going with him

Can we focus on this post for a while please?

To hell with how good we were pre-MOC. To hell with all this "AP bosh rugby" stuff. To hell with players who used to be in the squad but are not any more. The simple truth is that we still have a great squad with some top class internationals across all areas of the park. The quality and depth of our squad is the envy of most clubs in Europe. But we are not playing like we have that squad.

Yes we won the league last season, but a lot of our performances were incredibly poor. Remember both Edinburgh games for example. God they were awful displays, the latter of which was at home in May. I said at the start of this season that last season we looked like a side that rode it's luck at times based on the quality of the squad and a winning mentality. But that my big fear was that without performances backing that up we wouldn't be able to continue scraping results indefinitely. The Connacht and Treviso games were both games we would have won last season and didn't this. These games inevitably wear down that winning mentality and unless we can find performances I'm very worried that we'll see a few more games slip by us, or a few match points pass us by.

We lost 4 games all last season. We've lost 3 already this, and we're not even half way through the season. We have away games to Munster, Ulster and Ospreys to come before May. We can't afford to lose many more this season. But we don't look like we're capable of going to places like Thomond and getting a result right now. There are very real reasons to be concerned lads.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Have to disagree with that 100%. It's just a case of moving the goalposts to say we can't directly compare MOC and Cheika but somehow it's OK to compare MOC and Schmidt.

For the record I'd be less happy with MOC than either Cheika or Schmidt, but I think there were very similar problems under Cheika as we are finding now under MOC and it was never his job to "sort the top 2 inches" in 09/10. The only real differences are to be found in the expectations of the fans.

We're probably not too far from agreeing. As I said in the above post I don't really have any interest in comparing coaches. I don't think its really that relevant. What is relevant is what we are capable of versus what we are producing. And where we are going.

Hagz

otbrugby wrote: »

So you think the coach is irrelevant?
Sexton will still have to try and implement MOC's "gameplans"
The coach is as important as the players, just look at Kidney and Ireland.

I don't think the coach is irrelevant, but I think in the provinces the players hold a great deal of power. You butt heads with the national coach, you run the risk of losing your place for your country. The dynamics are different at provincial level.

No doubt Sexton will implement MOC's tactics, and he'll do a much better job of it than Gopperth or Madigan have. He'll also provide his own input which is invaluable. I don't think Schmidt could have achieved what he has if he didn't have such ambitious characters like Sexton and O'Driscoll in the back-line. I'm not removing all the blame off MOC's shoulders for uninspiring back-play, but I do think he has had far less to work with.

otbrugby

But are MOC's tactics good enough to begin with or do they suit the players and skillsets available to Leinster?
Is he maximizing the talent available to him?

.ak

mr. pleasant wrote: »

Well, that might be ok for you, but I disagree.

IMO it's not just the performances of the players and a few missing players. There are defo things that irk me which are pointing to the coach like game plan (or lack thereof) and player management (Madigan under Joe vs Madigan under MOC)

I also don't think it's about "how we handle ourselves". Would that mean that no matter how bad the performances, the results, the standing in the league we have to smile and say "that's grand, sure they are only trying their best"?

Why not voice disappointment? Why not say that MOC might not be the best option?

I didn't say any of that?

I'm saying the players need to shoulder just as much of the blame as the coach.

I never said I was ok with any of it.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Can we focus on this post for a while please?

To hell with how good we were pre-MOC. To hell with all this "AP bosh rugby" stuff. To hell with players who used to be in the squad but are not any more. The simple truth is that we still have a great squad with some top class internationals across all areas of the park. The quality and depth of our squad is the envy of most clubs in Europe. But we are not playing like we have that squad.

Yes we won the league last season, but a lot of our performances were incredibly poor. Remember both Edinburgh games for example. God they were awful displays, the latter of which was at home in May. I said at the start of this season that last season we looked like a side that rode it's luck at times based on the quality of the squad and a winning mentality. But that my big fear was that without performances backing that up we wouldn't be able to continue scraping results indefinitely. The Connacht and Treviso games were both games we would have won last season and didn't this. These games inevitably wear down that winning mentality and unless we can find performances I'm very worried that we'll see a few more games slip by us, or a few match points pass us by.

We lost 4 games all last season. We've lost 3 already this, and we're not even half way through the season. We have away games to Munster, Ulster and Ospreys to come before May. We can't afford to lose many more this season. But we don't look like we're capable of going to places like Thomond and getting a result right now. There are very real reasons to be concerned lads.

I don't think anyone isn't concerned. That's my point I've been trying to make for the last several pages - I'm certainly not okay with where we are or what direction we've been going. My point is it's far too convenient to blame the coach for that. I always knew after the 3rd hcup win we'd decline because the hunger would go from the players. That coupled with perhaps a less than inspiring coach and a load of retirements and movements from key figures isn't a good cocktail.

mr. pleasant

.ak wrote: »

I'm saying the players need to shoulder just as much of the blame as the coach.

Nope. Who is the boss? MOC is. It's his responsibility, his job, to have them perform at or above their abilities. Which is not happening at the moment.

Even considering that the squad is not what it was 2010-2012. There is plenty of space between the heights of 2012 and where we are now. We might not get to the exact same level again but that does not mean that we could not do better than we do right now.

These are the right questions IMO:

otbrugby wrote: »

But are MOC's tactics good enough to begin with or do they suit the players and skillsets available to Leinster?
Is he maximizing the talent available to him?

and I think the answer is: no.

.ak

mr. pleasant wrote: »

Nope. Who is the boss? MOC is. It's his responsibility, his job, to have them perform at or above their abilities. Which is not happening at the moment.

Even considering that the squad is not what it was 2010-2012. There is plenty of space between the heights of 2012 and where we are now. We might not get to the exact same level again but that does not mean that we could not do better than we do right now.

These are the right questions IMO:



and I think the answer is: no.

Fine, that's your opinion. It's just a very convenient opinion IMO.

There's a lot more to the squad than one man.

The Lost Sheep

mr. pleasant wrote: »

Nope. Who is the boss? MOC is. It's his responsibility, his job, to have them perform at or above their abilities. Which is not happening at the moment.

Even considering that the squad is not what it was 2010-2012. There is plenty of space between the heights of 2012 and where we are now. We might not get to the exact same level again but that does not mean that we could not do better than we do right now.

These are the right questions IMO:

and I think the answer is: no.

You are putting all the blame on the coaches shoulders. Yes ye could possibly be doing better but maybe just maybe your expectations for where Leinster should be are a touch too high and simply Leinster are not as good as you think they are and it wouldn't matter who was coach but Leinster would have dropped off from the levels they have been at in recent times.
O Connor isn't on the pitch. He has lost a lot of key players in key places and that's a major factor. O Connor probably isn't going to be kept on but who do you replace him with that will somehow fix the issues that were not his fault and cant be used to blame O Connor for supposedly making Leinster drop from where they had been under the previous coaching team

otbrugby

when it comes down to it some leinster fans seem to think this is the best we can expect from this group of players.. while others think this is the bare minimum this group of players should be achieving.
under no circumstance could you call that a well coached team at the weekend and its not the first time we have looked that way since MOC took over... more often than not we look like that alot.

mr. pleasant

otbrugby wrote: »

when it comes down to it some leinster fans seem to think this is the best we can expect from this group of players.. while others think this is the bare minimum this group of players should be achieving.

nice summary.

ak:

Why is my opinion a "very convenient opinion"? I'm not sure I like what I think you are suggesting there.

I know some players retired, some are out injured etc. I also know you can't win Europe every year and not every coach is Joe etc.

BUT:

Look at the match day squads. The actual players on the pitch. Against Glasgow this season, Connacht, Treviso... Are you really saying this is as good as it gets? 5th/6th in the league, you win some you lose some? A draw against the bottom team which has not won a match all season can happen? Is Leinster really an average team these days? Are we Cardiff? Will we become the Dragons next year? Or do we _despite everything_ have the potential for more? And who's job is it to unlock that potential? The man at the helm. But he does not seem to get anything going. I also do not see a case where something is building but the results are not coming (yet). In fact, there is very little to see.

Let's not forget that MOC still operates with a squad that makes up the majority of an Ireland squad doing pretty well under a certain Joe Schmidt. Who, btw, as a coach gets a lot more out of the same squad than the man before him. Even though some players have retired and others are out injured. And why is that? Because he's a damn good coach.

So there you have it: there are good coaches and there are not so good coaches. Personally, I'd rather have a good coach at Leinster but atm I have to live with one that is not that good. I have no say in that, but at least I can voice my (very convenient) opinion.

Hagz

mr. pleasant wrote: »

Let's not forget that MOC still operates with a squad that makes up the majority of an Ireland squad doing pretty well under a certain Joe Schmidt. Who, btw, as a coach gets a lot more out of the same squad than the man before him. Even though some players have retired and others are out injured. And why is that? Because he's a damn good coach.

In terms of the pack you're right, but very few of the Leinster backs have a major role in the Irish team bar Rob Kearney.
Reddan is still useful but he's well behind Murray.
Madigan finds himself in the 23, but realistically he never comes on unless there are injuries or the game is dead as a contest.
D'Arcy's role in the national team is shrinking all the time. I would argue that he doesn't deserve to start at 12 anymore. He offers no attacking threat and is there for his experience.
McFadden would probably find himself involved but his versatility plays a big role.

Schmidt has done brilliantly in charge of Ireland so far, but what has he had throughout his time? Jonathan Sexton. How many games would Schmidt have been able to bag with the same team except Madigan in instead of Sexton? I'd argue that we'd have lost most of our 6nations matches, wouldn't have put up a fight against New Zealand, and we certainly wouldn't be 3 from 3 this Autumn.

Could Schmidt take the squad we have now and win a European trophy? Not in my opinion no. I think we would be playing more intelligently for sure. Does the fact that we aren't mean we should look for a new coach?