Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

errlloyd

I dunno if people agree but I don't think moc's tactics or selection are the problem, they are playing like a team who lack confidence.

I just think it's an atmosphere thing. They need to be motivated better.

Tox56

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes ye could possibly be doing better but maybe just maybe your expectations for where Leinster should be are a touch too high and simply Leinster are not as good as you think they are and it wouldn't matter who was coach but Leinster would have dropped off from the levels they have been at in recent times.

I think you missed the point in his post where he said pretty clearly we aren't going to be at the same level as the Schmidt era and you can't expect that, but theres a big gap between where we were then, and what we see now in most games, and that we should be somewhere in that gap

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I don't think anyone isn't concerned. That's my point I've been trying to make for the last several pages - I'm certainly not okay with where we are or what direction we've been going. My point is it's far too convenient to blame the coach for that. I always knew after the 3rd hcup win we'd decline because the hunger would go from the players. That coupled with perhaps a less than inspiring coach and a load of retirements and movements from key figures isn't a good cocktail.

But again you're comparing. Using things that have happened in the past to justify where we are now. I know there are people out there who aren't happy with a dip in performance over our peak. That is daft. It was always going to happen. But as I tried to say in my post we shouldn't be comparing back to previous seasons. We should be looking at the current squad and its potential and identifying whether our coaches are getting the best out of them.

If players are under performing whose job is it to deal with that? Do you really believe that the players lack motivation or drive? And if so how should that be addressed? And by who?

Ultimately like any managed environment the man at the top is ultimately responsible. That is MOC. It's part of the job. If the players aren't properly motivated it's his job to motivate them. If the skill levels are a problem it's his job to identify that and ensure they are improved. A short period of poor performance can be attributed to issues with the players. Ongoing issues have to be attributed to the coach purely because it's his job to address those things.

I don't think it's at all "convenient" for people to question the man in charge for those very reasons. Like Tox I've no idea where MOC is taking us. I can't see what he's trying to do. That Treviso game was such an absolute shambles when he had weeks to get the squad prepared for it. How can you excuse such a lack of structure to that game? The players? Something must surely be wrong in the prep for it to have been that bad. We saw players working hard individually (albeit a poor game from Gopps) but the collective wasn't there.

dregin

b.gud wrote: »

Personally I look at articles from The Herald as little more than click bait. The only ones I've seen are the one in the Indo and on thescore.ie. Neither had any real facts or sources to show any real indication that there is some truth behind it.

As a number of people have said Henshaw is contracted until 2016 and def won't be going anywhere until then. Henshaw also has ties in terms of College and family that would make Connacht preferable for him, at least for the time being. Connacht have really kicked on this year and are certainly competitive and look to be on a good course to qualify for the Heineken cup which he would hopefully be happy with.

There is a good chance that at some stage Connacht may lose Henshaw to another team as he is a huge talent that many teams would be interested. As with most Connacht fans I would be extremely disappointed to see him go but would also wish him well. Personally I would love to see him give Connacht another couple of years after his contract runs out to see if he can achieve something with the team.

FYP

.ak

mr. pleasant wrote: »

nice summary.

ak:

Why is my opinion a "very convenient opinion"? I'm not sure I like what I think you are suggesting there.

I know some players retired, some are out injured etc. I also know you can't win Europe every year and not every coach is Joe etc.

BUT:

Look at the match day squads. The actual players on the pitch. Against Glasgow this season, Connacht, Treviso... Are you really saying this is as good as it gets? 5th/6th in the league, you win some you lose some? A draw against the bottom team which has not won a match all season can happen? Is Leinster really an average team these days? Are we Cardiff? Will we become the Dragons next year? Or do we _despite everything_ have the potential for more? And who's job is it to unlock that potential? The man at the helm. But he does not seem to get anything going. I also do not see a case where something is building but the results are not coming (yet). In fact, there is very little to see.

Let's not forget that MOC still operates with a squad that makes up the majority of an Ireland squad doing pretty well under a certain Joe Schmidt. Who, btw, as a coach gets a lot more out of the same squad than the man before him. Even though some players have retired and others are out injured. And why is that? Because he's a damn good coach.

So there you have it: there are good coaches and there are not so good coaches. Personally, I'd rather have a good coach at Leinster but atm I have to live with one that is not that good. I have no say in that, but at least I can voice my (very convenient) opinion.

Again, people are putting words in my mouth by saying things like "Are you really saying this is as good as it gets? 5th/6th in the league, you win some you lose some?"

I've already expressed it's not good enough. I'm just saying the problems are far deeper than the head coach. What about Leo, or Richie? Why are they never mentioned in these posts?

I think MOC is a good coach, he's okay at this level. He certainly isn't fantastic, or hasn't proved to do so. But do we need a fantastic coach with such apparently world class players?

Tell me, all the people that think MOC should be shown the door a full season early; who will you replace him with?

chancer12

Think Jonny will be hugely frustrated with MOC's kind of rugby, this won't be a happy partnership

Pudsy33

chancer12 wrote: »

Think Jonny will be hugely frustrated with MOC's kind of rugby, this won't be a happy partnership

They hardly play expansive stuff in the Top 14. He will be suited to mocball.

.ak

chancer12 wrote: »

Think Jonny will be hugely frustrated with MOC's kind of rugby, this won't be a happy partnership

One thing Sexton is good at is adapting his game. Leinster, Ireland, Racing Metro and the Lions, five different coaches with different tactics, and he's shone with them all.

former legend

MOCball. Christ.

I know the Treviso game was sh1t but there was a lot of offloading out of the tackle, lots of attempted continuity. Execution was awful but the intent was there, as it was in the last game.

Stainalert

.ak wrote: »

Again, people are putting words in my mouth by saying things like "Are you really saying this is as good as it gets? 5th/6th in the league, you win some you lose some?"

I've already expressed it's not good enough. I'm just saying the problems are far deeper than the head coach. What about Leo, or Richie? Why are they never mentioned in these posts?

I think MOC is a good coach, he's okay at this level. He certainly isn't fantastic, or hasn't proved to do so. But do we need a fantastic coach with such apparently world class players?

Tell me, all the people that think MOC should be shown the door a full season early; who will you replace him with?

Jake White, Robbie Deans, Ewen McKenzie

LostArt

Stainalert wrote: »

Jake White, Robbie Deans, Ewen McKenzie

being realistic I'd say there's no hope of any of them, look at our last few appointments, we're gambling on up and coming coaches looking to establish themselves

Pudsy33

former legend wrote: »

MOCball. Christ.

I know the Treviso game was sh1t but there was a lot of offloading out of the tackle, lots of attempted continuity. Execution was awful but the intent was there, as it was in the last game.

I don't mean it in derogatory way. It's a useful phrase to describe our style. Personally I'm happy enough with it all. A top 4 in the league and a decent European run is all we can expect.

Clearlier

.ak wrote: »

One thing Sexton is good at is adapting his game. Leinster, Ireland, Racing Metro and the Lions, five different coaches with different tactics, and he's shone with them all.

I thought he struggled with Kidney actually, possibly the making of him!

Quint2010

ah no. I thought MOC was only on a two year deal. My Christmas is ruined..

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

What about Leo, or Richie?

Fair point here that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

Personally I was never too happy with Leo going straight from player to coach. He's got a lot of potential in that department but I would have preferred if he'd gone off somewhere and earned his stripes first.

Richie is slightly different. He has worked his way up the chain and was skills coach when our skills were second to none. He's now double jobbing with Ireland which can't be helping matters at all though. I'd rather we didn't have guys double jobbing under 2 very different coaches like that.

Heroditas

When people say MOC is on a three year deal, is it
a) a full three years or
b) a two year contract with the option for Leinster to extend it to a third year?
I'd have been very surprised if it was (a).

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Again, people are putting words in my mouth by saying things like "Are you really saying this is as good as it gets? 5th/6th in the league, you win some you lose some?"

I've already expressed it's not good enough. I'm just saying the problems are far deeper than the head coach. What about Leo, or Richie? Why are they never mentioned in these posts?

I think MOC is a good coach, he's okay at this level. He certainly isn't fantastic, or hasn't proved to do so. But do we need a fantastic coach with such apparently world class players?

Tell me, all the people that think MOC should be shown the door a full season early; who will you replace him with?

Bizarre. The buck stops with the head coach. The problems run from him, he hires the other coaches, they take his direction.

Why do we need a fantastic coach? I don't even know what to say to you about that.

As for your last point, I'd never heard of this fella, Schmidt I think his name was, when he took over Leinster. There are coaches out there. "There's nobody else" is no argument.

former legend

Heroditas wrote: »

When people say MOC is on a three year deal, is it
a) a full three years or
b) a two year contract with the option for Leinster to extend it to a third year?
I'd have been very surprised if it was (a).

There's been no indication that it's anything other than (a).

irishbucsfan

Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »

Bizarre. The buck stops with the head coach. The problems run from him, he hires the other coaches, they take his direction.

Why do we need a fantastic coach? I don't even know what to say to you about that.

As for your last point, I'd never heard of this fella, Schmidt I think his name was, when he took over Leinster. There are coaches out there. "There's nobody else" is no argument.

Schmidt was running the show at Clermont in Cotter's absence. He was not unheard of.

I too would be interested to hear who people would suggest looking at in place of MOC. I really don't think there's anyone interesting to me at assistant level, I think King would be the only one I'd really be interested but I'm not sure if he's head coach material.

Quint2010

Heroditas wrote: »

When people say MOC is on a three year deal, is it
a) a full three years or
b) a two year contract with the option for Leinster to extend it to a third year?
I'd have been very surprised if it was (a).

Tragically, it says 3 years in the press announcement...

former legend

Quint2010 wrote: »

Tragically, it says 3 years in the press announcement...

He needs time.

I don't know whether people have very short memories or weren't following Leinster at the time but we were in a similar position in the early days of the Cheika era.

We're in a period of rebuilding, miracles were never going to happen overnight but unfortunately a lot of people seemed to expect they would.

Neil3030

I don't think an 'ok' coach is sufficient, both in the long run and in the grander national picture. If the IRFU are to commit to a provincial -> national succession policy for the head coaching job, it's a waste of three years to leave an 'ok' coach at the helm of the biggest province.

Players are not absolved from blame in the current dip, nor are injuries, but if other coaches are out there who could be using the presently available resources to better and to more consistent effect, while being blooded into the system from a long term perspective, the IRFU need to seriously consider them.

FWIW I think O'Connor is doing a moderately good job, and his performance must be appraised in the context of injuries and retirements, but I'm not sure how high his ceiling is. Would you ever see him take the reigns of the national team? Because realistically, I don't think the Leinster job should be wasted on someone where there isn't at least a good thought in this regard.

Buer

I won't bother getting involved in the finer details of this discussion but just to highlight, MOC will not be sacked ahead of time.

It's not happpening so people just need to accept that and move on.

Quint2010

former legend wrote: »

He needs time.

I don't know whether people have very short memories or weren't following Leinster at the time but we were in a similar position in the early days of the Cheika era.

We're in a period of rebuilding, miracles were never going to happen overnight but unfortunately a lot of people seemed to expect they would.

Ah I know I agree. He has lost 4 of the best players in the world in their positions Healy, SOB, Sexton and BOD. Any team would miss them. Leinsters key problem position though is OH. MOC needs to wake up and realise that Gopperth is not up to standard.

CatFromHue

former legend wrote: »

MOCball. Christ.

I know the Treviso game was sh1t but there was a lot of offloading out of the tackle, lots of attempted continuity. Execution was awful but the intent was there, as it was in the last game.

I noticed a few very nice passages of support play/offloading in the game too.

But it was an incredibly weak Leinster team too, six or seven of the starting team had 3 or less starts this season (or ever in Conan and L.McGrath's cases) and in D Kearney and J Murphy we'd two guys getting their first bit of game time this season.

Our 8, 9, and 12 were very inexperienced and these are key players on any team.

I expect a much better performance on the weekend.

It seems we got extremely lucky with Cheika and Schmidt to date, as two excellent coaches on the verge of a their big breaks.

CatFromHue

There's abit of rose tinted glasses there with Cheika, he was under a fair bit of pressure the year we won the HEC for the first time and that involved a big change in how we played. We were much more defensive that year.

scott1974

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's abit of rose tinted glasses there with Cheika, he was under a fair bit of pressure the year we won the HEC for the first time and that involved a big change in how we played. We were much more defensive that year.

I think Cheika brought a hard edge to the team, the likes of going to France and winning games rather than getting thumped up front.

We were lucky with Joe, I think he is a one in a lifetime.... and I think he may be the NZ coach after the world cup.... you don't get that job without knowing what you're doing!

aimee1

otbrugby wrote: »

What aspect of rugby have Leinster been very good at under MOC?

Knock ons, passing to the ground, missing tackles .......

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's abit of rose tinted glasses there with Cheika, he was under a fair bit of pressure the year we won the HEC for the first time and that involved a big change in how we played. We were much more defensive that year.

Very much so. Calls for Cheika to be sacked were certainly not unknown around the turn of the year 2008/09, 5 months before he went into the Leinster history books as the coach that turned us around.

shuffol

I remember the defeat to Castres in 08 was up there with the worst I've seen Leinster play. There was also the shambles of Gaffneys flat passing.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

He needs time.

I don't know whether people have very short memories or weren't following Leinster at the time but we were in a similar position in the early days of the Cheika era.

We're in a period of rebuilding, miracles were never going to happen overnight but unfortunately a lot of people seemed to expect they would.

The only thing to remember here is that we've come a long way since then, both provincially and nationally. Look at the squad Cheika had. Not just the first XV but the wider squad.

Buer

scott1974 wrote: »

I think Cheika brought a hard edge to the team, the likes of going to France and winning games rather than getting thumped up front.

We went to France 7 times under Cheika and lost 4 of them. Aside from the game against Toulouse in 2006, we beat Brive and Agen, neither great teams. We lost to Bourgoin (after thumping them by 50 the week before) and Castres (after beating them by 30 the week before). We also lost twice to Toulouse.

We were well beaten up front on a number of occasions. Even the win in 2006 was based on being ridiculously sharp with the ball in hand despite coming off second best up front.

There's no doubt he did give a tougher mental edge up front but mostly he brought discipline and more cohesion. But he also got Leo Cullen at his peak. He got Cian Healy and Jamie Heaslip. He got Shane Jennings and and the emergence of SOB.

We simply never had a pack that had such indigenous quality in it previously.

wise7

Stainalert wrote: »

Jake White, Robbie Deans, Ewen McKenzie

The one I would break the bank for and go all out to persuade him to move back to Dublin would be Conor O'Shea.

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's abit of rose tinted glasses there with Cheika, he was under a fair bit of pressure the year we won the HEC for the first time and that involved a big change in how we played. We were much more defensive that year.

I thought he kept picking the wrong outhalf over a local young talent too

Leinster mostly played very stodgy rugby the year we won the HEC. The Munster game was very much an exception. Leinster conceded five tries all tournament - that's why they won.

Buer

wise7 wrote: »

The one I would break the bank for and go all out to persuade him to move back to Dublin would be Conor O'Shea.

I'm not being deliberately facetious but can I ask why?

He has a team with 6 blokes who have played for England in the past year along with the likes of Nick Evans. They're in the bottom half of the Premiership behind a team like Sale. Since they won the title, they've gradually slipped.

They've also flattered to deceive in the HEC only making it out of their pool on one occasion when they had arguably the weakest pool in the history of the tournament.

Rigor Mortis

wise7 wrote: »

The one I would break the bank for and go all out to persuade him to move back to Dublin would be Conor O'Shea.

Much as I like Conor O'Shea, he has not won a whole great pile in his time with Quins. A great start to his tenure but he hasn't kept it going. No serious pedigree in Europe. As an established coach, I cant see him being cheap, nor can I see a lot of room for development.

Either someone on the up coming from a lesser light or an international standard coach.

Clegg

Cheika's final season at Leinster is not one I'll remember very fondly. The team was all over the place.

Still think the team never played quite as well under him as they should have. There was a lot of talent in that side that didn't always click. I miss the glory days of the Dr.Phil/Darce/BOD/ midfield with Hickie, Horgan and Girve in the back 3.

errlloyd

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Much as I like Conor O'Shea, he has not won a whole great pile in his time with Quins. A great start to his tenure but he hasn't kept it going. No serious pedigree in Europe. As an established coach, I cant see him being cheap, nor can I see a lot of room for development.

Either someone on the up coming from a lesser light or an international standard coach.

While I think you're absolutely spot on in his limitations, he has some measurable success on a micro level. His development of certain players, Care, Robshaw and Brown in particular has been impressive. So I feel he is valuable to a set up.

Buer

While he has always struck me as a very good man manager and beneficial in terms of developing players, Robshaw, Care and Brown were all capped well before COS arrived at Quins. Dean Richards has to take a huge amount of credit there.

SaveOurLyric

Heroditas wrote: »

When people say MOC is on a three year deal, is it
a) a full three years or
b) a two year contract with the option for Leinster to extend it to a third year?
I'd have been very surprised if it was (a).

Does it matter ? Its a two year one now, whatever, hopefully. Details of the contract only determine whether he get paid off or not. But overall, probably cheaper to pay him off if thats what the legal says and move onwards rather than the downward spiral: wasting another year, not developing players, not bringing in the right players, not retaining talent, pissing off the fans game after game, hitting next years season ticket renewals and attendances, etc, etc, etc. For example, we already wasted a year of Madigan being knocked around. Thank God, he still has a link to Joe.

"In the name of Allah, go."

sydthebeat

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Does it matter ? Its a two year one now, whatever, hopefully. Details of the contract only determine wheather he get paid off or not. But overall, probably cheaper to pay him off if thats what the legal says and move onwards rather than the downward spiral: wasting another year, not developing players, not bringing in the rigth players, not retaining talent, pissing off the fans game after game, hitting next years season ticket renewals and attendances, etc, etc, etc. For example, we already wasted a year of Madigan being knocked around. Thank God, he still has a ling to Joe.

"In the name of Allah, go."

Madigan has been offered plenty of chances to cement down the 10 shirt, he hasnt been able to do that.

his versatility in other positions has proven a bonus due to our injury crisis.

Nothing to do MOC "knocking him about"

wise7

Buer wrote: »

I'm not being deliberately facetious but can I ask why?

He has a team with 6 blokes who have played for England in the past year along with the likes of Nick Evans. They're in the bottom half of the Premiership behind a team like Sale. Since they won the title, they've gradually slipped.

They've also flattered to deceive in the HEC only making it out of their pool on one occasion when they had arguably the weakest pool in the history of the tournament.

From what I hear about his interpersonal skills, organisational capacity and leadership qualities, from what I observe myself about his understanding of the modern game and his vision I think he can bring the glue to a club that has,(next to Toulon and Clermont) probably the best array of talent in players,support staff and facilities. What we need is a conductor for our orchestra and someone players can believe in respect and want to do well for. Old fashioned values but they work and I believe we need these above all else.

otbrugby

Buer wrote: »

I won't bother getting involved in the finer details of this discussion but just to highlight, MOC will not be sacked ahead of time.

It's not happpening so people just need to accept that and move on.

doesnt mean people can want him to go or complain that they wont sack him early.

MOC is out of his depth, he isnt getting the best our of the players available to him and the longer he stays the further leinster rugby will regress.

BoardsMember

I wouldn't want us to sign O'Shea, I like him on the telly, but he hasn't really done much, and week in/week out in English rugby is not exactly broadening his experience or knowledge of the game, from what I see anyhow. I'm not one to go for a southern hemisphere coach just for the sake of it, but equally I'm not one to for an Irish one just because he's likeable on the telly.

Re Cheika reign, he'd not be the first coach to get the boot before a subsequent coach reaped the benefit of his changes. It's hard to say how much Leinster owe him. I certainly new believed that we could win the HEC with Dr Phil at 10, and that's something that Cheika never looked to address.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Madigan has been offered plenty of chances to cement down the 10 shirt, he hasnt been able to do that.

his versatility in other positions has proven a bonus due to our injury crisis.

Nothing to do MOC "knocking him about"

He hasn't been given any opportunity this season to nail down the 10 shirt, none. I know there's been injuries but Gopperth has swung between average and appalling so far. MOC picks the team is be fairly sure.

Clearlier

wise7 wrote: »

From what I hear about his interpersonal skills, organisational capacity and leadership qualities, from what I observe myself about his understanding of the modern game and his vision I think he can bring the glue to a club that has,(next to Toulon and Clermont) probably the best array of talent in players,support staff and facilities. What we need is a conductor for our orchestra and someone players can believe in respect and want to do well for. Old fashioned values but they work and I believe we need these above all else.

I'm honestly not sure whether this is a disagreement with the point or the metaphor or I don't understand the role of a conductor but Schmidt is a lot more than an organiser. He doesn't just organise the orchestra, he also analyses how each and everyone of them plays every single note, tells them where to improve and has coaches to show them how to do it.

I've noticed in other sports that coaches often have a shelf life where they come into an organisation with new ideas that complement the weaknesses that are present. Over the course of a year or so their influence means that the team improves as the focus on 'areas of opportunity for improvement' brings good results. However the new coach has weaknesses in areas that the previous coach might have had as a strength and after a year of improvement and a year of standing still performance levels begin to deteriorate as those weaknesses begin to show. Usually they then leave and somebody is brought in to address those weaknesses. It's rare enough to have the complete package in a coach. The time frames are just examples, it's probably about 6 weeks for each stage in football at the moment.

Jaggo

former legend wrote: »

He needs time.

I don't know whether people have very short memories or weren't following Leinster at the time but we were in a similar position in the early days of the Cheika era.

We're in a period of rebuilding, miracles were never going to happen overnight but unfortunately a lot of people seemed to expect they would.

I think what gets me the most is the lack of improvement, 16 months and we are still getting worse or flatlining but not getting better.

Couple of other points:
Matt had to take over a club that had its entire management structure already in place, I don't think anyone has given him credit for how difficult that must have been
The excuses that Sexton, Isa and Bod leaving were the cause of bad back play are just that. Matt knew that all of these people were leaving before he arrived, he never had to change his plans because of their departure. Our current style of back play is Matt's play book.

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

Ah I know I agree. He has lost 4 of the best players in the world in their positions Healy, SOB, Sexton and BOD. Any team would miss them. Leinsters key problem position though is OH. MOC needs to wake up and realise that Gopperth is not up to standard.

How do you mean wake up? I'm sure he's pretty aware of the standard Gopperth is at. What other options is there? I don't think Madigan is a better 10, or even if he was it's marginal.

Sexton coming back will be a game changer I feel.

sydthebeat

Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »

He hasn't been given any opportunity this season to nail down the 10 shirt, none.

and you disregard last season for what reason?