Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

otbrugby

there is very little improvement in players, especially backs.. thats is the biggest worry.. leinster are utterly reliant on developing their own players, which is why having a good coach is incredibly important..

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

any you disregard last season for what reason?

Because we're in the present?

Are you suggesting that due to last season MOC is correct to not give him a shot at 10, despite Gopperth being in dire form?

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

doesnt mean people can want him to go or complain that they wont sack him early.

MOC is out of his depth, he isnt getting the best our of the players available to him and the longer he stays the further leinster rugby will regress.

That seems like a wasted exercise. Why bother?

There's a lot of things that could improve our chances of silverware this season and next; our pack getting it together is a more realistic thing than a coach getting sacked mid-contract.

wise7

otbrugby wrote: »

there is very little improvement in players, especially backs.. thats is the biggest worry.. leinster are utterly reliant on developing their own players, which is why having a good coach is incredibly important..

Of course skills have to be constantly developed and put into practice and that's very important. But skills alone in the absence of a decent blueprint as to how Leinster is going to play is absolutely essential. It is the style of play or lack of it that comes right back to the door of the head coach. The Emperor has no clothes and that is very obvious.

otbrugby

.ak wrote: »

That seems like a wasted exercise. Why bother?

There's a lot of things that could improve our chances of silverware this season and next; our pack getting it together is a more realistic thing than a coach getting sacked mid-contract.

and again I havent called for him to be sacked mid-season.

Why bother post on an internet forum? none of it has any impact.

It's my opinion that MOC isn't a good enough coach for Leinster, some agree with that others dont.. it's all just opinions that have no impact. if you don't want us to express our opinions what bother posting about anything?

.ak

Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »

Because we're in the present?

Are you suggesting that due to last season MOC is correct to not give him a shot at 10, despite Gopperth being in dire form?

Treviso game aside, has Gopperth been in dire form?

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

and again I havent called for him to be sacked mid-season.

Why bother post on an internet forum? none of it has any impact.

It's my opinion that MOC isn't a good enough coach for Leinster, some agree with that others dont.. it's all just opinions that have no impact. if you don't want us to express our opinions what bother posting about anything?

That's not what I said - just some things are worth discussing IMO and some things aren't, but nobody will stop you from discussing either.

sydthebeat

Spencer Raspy Veteran wrote: »

Because we're in the present?

Are you suggesting that due to last season MOC is correct to not give him a shot at 10, despite Gopperth being in dire form.

i would suggest that due to comparing both madigan's and gopperth's performances at 10 last year, gopperth was the incumbent coming into this season.

i would also suggest that that was the correct call, knowing that Madigan would have been missing for practically all of November.

what could madigan have done last sunday against treviso when he wasnt in the team??

so again i will say that Madigan has not been "knocked about" by MOC at all, which was your supposition.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Treviso game aside, has Gopperth been in dire form?

I've said before I think he gets far too much stick from Leinster fans. He's had a few performances where he has been a bit off, but nothing as bad as the Treviso performance. And I've heard today that he was ill all week which probably goes some way to explaining things. He's had some good games for us as well this season though that people gloss over.

.ak

Also don't forget even if MOC had plans to play Madigan more at 10 this season he couldn't because of Reid's injury.

LostArt

.ak wrote: »

Treviso game aside, has Gopperth been in dire form?

No he hasn't, I'd say he's been above average to good, but he suffers from

1) Not being Johnny Sexton
2) Not being Ian Madigan

wise7

.ak wrote: »

Treviso game aside, has Gopperth been in dire form?

Yes pretty poor. Why was Marsh not given a chance, even 10 minutes in a few of the games over the last few weeks? The Coach has a duty to bring on players and having a decent 10 in his 3rd year in the Academy who played consistently well in the B&I last season deserves a shot especially when Gopperth has been playing so badly.

otbrugby

wise7 wrote: »

Yes pretty poor. Why was Marsh not given a chance, even 10 minutes in a few of the games over the last few weeks? The Coach has a duty to bring on players and having a decent 10 in his 3rd year in the Academy who played consistently well in the B&I last season deserves a shot especially when Gopperth has been playing so badly.

because marsh is too small and inexperienced for MOC.

.ak

wise7 wrote: »

Yes pretty poor. Why was Marsh not given a chance, even 10 minutes in a few of the games over the last few weeks? The Coach has a duty to bring on players and having a decent 10 in his 3rd year in the Academy who played consistently well in the B&I last season deserves a shot especially when Gopperth has been playing so badly.

Any examples of being poor? The odd mistake aside he's been pretty solid for us this season so far.

.ak

LostArt wrote: »

No he hasn't, I'd say he's been above average to good, but he suffers from

1) Not being Johnny Sexton
2) Not being Ian Madigan

Ah, he's got a terrible case of notjohnnyiatus. :pac:

wise7

otbrugby wrote: »

because marsh is too small and inexperienced for MOC.

Its like going for a job interview and being told you have no experience. How do young players with potential get experience? Does the b&I count for nothing? Why is the word of the head coach final on every aspect of player development in the entire squad/ Do other coaches have no input or say or influence? Is this juts a dictatorship?

wise7

.ak wrote: »

Any examples of being poor? The odd mistake aside he's been pretty solid for us this season so far.

I think his game management is mediocre. He is a good English Premiership mid-table 10 at best. He is not a European Premier Club 10.

.ak

As a way to maybe move on from the MOC-in-out discussion what team could be available to us this weekend? I'd go with...

1. Bent
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Reddan
10. Gopperth
11. Kearney
12. Reid
13. McFadden
14. Fanning
15. Kirchner

16. Byrne/Struass
17. Dooley?
18. Hagan
19. Denton
20. Leavy
21. Boss/McGrath
22. Madigan
23. McGrath

otbrugby

1. Bent
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Reddan
10. Madigan
11. Kearney
12. Reid
13. Fitzgerald, if fit
14. Fanning
15. Kirchner, if fit

16. Byrne
17. Dooley
18. Hagan
19. Denton
20. Conan
21. McGrath
22. Gopperth
23. McFadden

But there is almost no chance this team will be the one MOC goes with.

.ak

wise7 wrote: »

Its like going for a job interview and being told you have no experience. How do young players with potential get experience? Does the b&I count for nothing? Why is the word of the head coach final on every aspect of player development in the entire squad/ Do other coaches have no input or say or influence? Is this juts a dictatorship?

Maybe the other coaches feel the same? Frankly we have no idea why isn't being picked, because we're not privy to that info. Could be multiple different reasons.

.ak

I forgot about Conan. I'd imagine he'll be involved alright. Madigan could easily start this one, but I don't think he's the man to lead us into the quins games so I'd rather we stuck with Gopps.

LF is unmentionable at the moment. No pics of him training either.

Quint2010

.ak wrote: »

Any examples of being poor? The odd mistake aside he's been pretty solid for us this season so far.

He was terrible in the Leinster Munster match (kicking the ball far too much, too far and to no-one, pass intercepted for Munster try) and terrible again last Sunday (kick charged down directly leading to try (I think it was his kick anyway), kicks out on the full, missed drop goal attempt from in front of posts to win match). Plus he missed an easy enough kick against Glasgow which could have won us the match.

So...the odd mistake?...His mind is elsewhere if you ask me.

shuffol

wise7 wrote: »

I think his game management is mediocre. He is a good English Premiership mid-table 10 at best. He is not a European Premier Club 10.

And yet he's a better ten than Madigan, so what does that say about him?

otbrugby

shuffol wrote: »

And yet he's a better ten than Madigan, so what does that say about him?

he is a better 10 than madigan when trying to implement MOC's system..

Madigan's a decent 10, as is Gopperth neither are world beaters. Madigan deserves a chance at 10, something he hasnt been given in awhile by MOC.

stephen_n

Hagz wrote: »

They were looking good but there was still the reality that two of the most experienced and by far the most influential players were moving on.

I firmly believe that regardless of the coach, Leinster will reclaim their spot as the top province next season because Jonathan Sexton is returning.

That's a rather damning indictment of Goperth and Madigan's abilities tbh.

wise7

Quint2010 wrote: »

He was terrible in the Leinster Munster match (kicking the ball far too much, too far and to no-one, pass intercepted for Munster try) and terrible again last Sunday (kick charged down directly leading to try (I think it was his kick anyway), kicks out on the full, missed drop goal attempt from in front of posts to win match). Plus he missed an easy enough kick against Glasgow which could have won us the match.

So...the odd mistake?...His mind is elsewhere if you ask me.

Agreed. His kicking game is just not there. It really is crazy that we sit and wait for the World's best 10 to come home next season while this season lumbers on with with a stubborn coach without a credible gameplan who is probably close to losing the dressing room and who continues to play a very average 10 week in and week out.

Pudsy33

shuffol wrote: »

And yet he's a better ten than Madigan, so what does that say about him?

He's really not. He's fine. Madigan can do everything he can and has more cutting edge. Jimmy has been a great servant and has pulled us out of the fire many times. I'd still rather Madigan played 10.

otbrugby

A game on saturday too, we are struggling for props. They will be using either AIL props such as Brian McGovern or the sub-academy props.
If you want to watch a good brand of rugby I recommend you go along.

Buer

otbrugby wrote: »

doesnt mean people can want him to go or complain that they wont sack him early.

Indeed but it's going to become quite tedious given he's here for another 18 months at least. It's a non-runner. We may as well complain that we're not going to sign SBW for centre.

awec

errlloyd wrote: »

I dunno if people agree but I don't think moc's tactics or selection are the problem, they are playing like a team who lack confidence.

I just think it's an atmosphere thing. They need to be motivated better.

The fans need to come up with more songs.

I reckon signing "Leinssttteerrr" to the tune of S Club Party by S Club 7 would be up there amongst the best ever sung at the RDS.

Leinsterrrrr, gonna show you howwwww... there ain't no player like a Leinster player...

Madigan's doing his dance,
Reddan has us in a trance,
Heaslips getting down on the floor,
Healy's always offering more...
Want to see Toner sing (on form),
Want to see Kearney doing his thing
We used to have Joe, he had the flow
Get ready everybody 'cos here we go!

Leinstterrrr....

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

.ak

wise7 wrote: »

I think his game management is mediocre. He is a good English Premiership mid-table 10 at best. He is not a European Premier Club 10.

You're probably right. But Madigan's game management is worse. Gopperth has been solid, and at times very good. That's all we can ask for, until Sexton arrives.

.ak

awec wrote: »

The fans need to come up with more songs.

I reckon signing "Leinssttteerrr" to the tune of S Club Party by S Club 7 would be up there amongst the best ever sung at the RDS.

Leinsterrrrr, gonna show you howwwww... there ain't no player like a Leinster player...

Madigan's doing his dance,
Reddan has us in a trance,
Heaslips getting down on the floor,
Healy's always offering more...
Want to see Toner sing (on form),
Want to see Kearney doing his thing
We used to have Joe, he had the flow
Get ready everybody 'cos here we go!

Leinstterrrr....

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Listen, you may get away with that panto crap up in Belfast, but down here we sing with one tone-deaf note in a collective drone ad nauseam. That's the way my father did it, and that's the way my son and his grandchild will do it!


Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeinstuuuuurrrrr.......

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

He was terrible in the Leinster Munster match (kicking the ball far too much, too far and to no-one, pass intercepted for Munster try) and terrible again last Sunday (kick charged down directly leading to try (I think it was his kick anyway), kicks out on the full, missed drop goal attempt from in front of posts to win match). Plus he missed an easy enough kick against Glasgow which could have won us the match.

So...the odd mistake?...His mind is elsewhere if you ask me.

I could pick any 10 from any the provinces and pick up on those sort of errors.

What do you expect, a completely error free season?

otbrugby

Buer wrote: »

Indeed but it's going to become quite tedious given he's here for another 18 months at least. It's a non-runner. We may as well complain that we're not going to sign SBW for centre.

if we as fans don't voice our concerns with how things are going who will?
just because we are powerless doesnt mean we should ignore what we see happening in front of us.. if its as simple as MOC's here to stay deal with it.. well thats depressing..

wise7

.ak wrote: »

You're probably right. But Madigan's game management is worse. Gopperth has been solid, and at times very good. That's all we can ask for, until Sexton arrives.

If that is so that what have got to lose to try a young outhalf like Marsh? Why have talent below if it is not trusted to be at least tried?

P.Walnuts

How did Conan get on btw at the weekend?

.ak

otbrugby wrote: »

he is a better 10 than madigan when trying to implement MOC's system..

Madigan's a decent 10, as is Gopperth neither are world beaters. Madigan deserves a chance at 10, something he hasnt been given in awhile by MOC.

Why does he deserve a chance? He isn't a charity case. He had his chance last season and didn't grab it. He may have had his chance this season but it was hardly anyone's fault that Reid got injured.

ssaye2

P.Walnuts wrote: »

How did Conan get on btw at the weekend?

Good break and offload for Daves try,
Bad mix up at back of scrum for their try

Solid 6/10

.ak

wise7 wrote: »

If that is so that what have got to lose to try a young outhalf like Marsh? Why have talent below if it is not trusted to be at least tried?

Do you think Marsh would be a better 10 than Gopperth or Madigan?

Hagz

stephen_n wrote: »

That's a rather damning indictment of Goperth and Madigan's abilities tbh.

I think it is more a statement on the influence of Jonathan Sexton.

Again, could Joe Schmidt have won a European Trophy without Sexton? Could he have won the 6nations without Sexton?

I've said it before and I have no problem repeating it, Jonathan Sexton has had a far greater influence on Leinster and Ireland's success than Joe Schmidt has.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Indeed but it's going to become quite tedious given he's here for another 18 months at least. It's a non-runner. We may as well complain that we're not going to sign SBW for centre.

We're not signing SBW?! Now you'll tell me the AAC and Ben Smith deals are off too....

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

As a way to maybe move on from the MOC-in-out discussion what team could be available to us this weekend? I'd go with...

1. Bent
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Reddan
10. Gopperth
11. Kearney
12. Reid
13. McFadden
14. Fanning
15. Kirchner

16. Byrne/Struass
17. Dooley?
18. Hagan
19. Denton
20. Leavy
21. Boss/McGrath
22. Madigan
23. McGrath

Gawd ak, that's pretty meh.

1. Newland
2. Cronin
3. Tuqiri
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Durkadurka
10. Molloyjh
11. Justsomebloke
12. Ruggiebear
13. Jacothelad
14. formerligind
15. Teferi

Now that's a team!

Quint2010

.ak wrote: »

I could pick any 10 from any the provinces and pick up on those sort of errors.

What do you expect, a completely error free season?

No of course not. But his errors seem to be basic ones that are costing the team results.

Buer

otbrugby wrote: »

if we as fans don't voice our concerns with how things are going who will?
just because we are powerless doesnt mean we should ignore what we see happening in front of us.. if its as simple as MOC's here to stay deal with it.. well thats depressing..

I'm not saying fans shouldn't voice their concerns at all. It's important that they do. I'm addressing people who are saying that MOC has to be sacked as soon as possible. It's not happening. He won the title, got us out of our HEC pool and is due to do so again this year. It's simply a non-runner.

If people complain saying we're not reaching close to our potential and he should not have his contract renewed then that makes sense and would probably hold more influence with Leinster Rugby. I'm sure any talk of sacking MOC is simply dismissed by those in LR as crazy, lunatic fringe talk.

ssaye2

thomond2006 wrote: »

Gawd ak, that's pretty meh.

1. Newland
2. Cronin
3. Tuqiri
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Durkadurka
10. Molloyjh
11. Justsomebloke
12. Ruggiebear
13. Jacothelad
14. formerligind
15. Teferi

Now that's a team!

So I can make the real team and not the boards one.:pac:

thomond2006

ssaye2 wrote: »

So I can make the real team and not the boards one.:pac:

You're dropped for spamming the forum with links.

.ak

Hagz wrote: »

I think it is more a statement on the influence of Jonathan Sexton.

Again, could Joe Schmidt have won a European Trophy without Sexton? Could he have won the 6nations without Sexton?

I've said it before and I have no problem repeating it, Jonathan Sexton has had a far greater influence on Leinster and Ireland's success than Joe Schmidt has.

Absolutely. I think my and many other's first expression when the Sexton to Racing deal was done was 'Well, that's the end of any more silverware for a while'.

Sexton for me has been Leinster's most important player in perhaps the last 5 years. Even without BOD we could get by at times.

Clearlier

Hagz wrote: »

I think it is more a statement on the influence of Jonathan Sexton.

Again, could Joe Schmidt have won a European Trophy without Sexton? Could he have won the 6nations without Sexton?

I've said it before and I have no problem repeating it, Jonathan Sexton has had a far greater influence on Leinster and Ireland's success than Joe Schmidt has.

Except that Sexton's performances under Kidney were nowhere near the level that they have been under Schmidt. Of course you can argue that he has developed as a player and he surely has but I attribute more of the difference to the setup that he's in now.

Maybe (probably) Schmidt couldn't have won without Sexton but neither could Sexton have won without a Schmidt/Cheika level coach.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

Gawd ak, that's pretty meh.

1. Newland
2. Cronin
3. Tuqiri
4. Douglas
5. McCarthy
6. Ryan
7. Jennings
8. Murphy
9. Durkadurka
10. Molloyjh
11. Justsomebloke
12. Ruggiebear
13. Jacothelad
14. formerligind
15. Teferi

Now that's a team!

jaco has lost his pace, is no longer a viable option at centre.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Listen, you may get away with that panto crap up in Belfast, but down here we sing with one tone-deaf note in a collective drone ad nauseam. That's the way my father did it, and that's the way my son and his grandchild will do it!


Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeinstuuuuurrrrr.......

I guarantee you it would work. How could a player not be inspired?!